To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral

Subject: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 06:36 AM

Of the many things about this funeral I don't like, the use of the hymn "To be a pilgrim" stands out. The fabulous words of the very radical and persecuted-by-authority John Bunyan, the lovely English folk tune, rejigged and arranged by the very populist artistic-power-to-the-people Ralph Vaughan Williams: what right have this woman and her running jackals got to hijack such a fabulous slice of our culture?

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 06:41 AM

Ah, yes. Silence your enemies. None of that freedom of speech stuff for people we don't like. Must resist urge to Godwin thread in first reply.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 07:23 AM

Yes and don't hide behind anonimity, like cowardly so called guests do, oh sorry Greg you didn't.

Dave H

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 08:00 AM

It doesn't really take much bravery to parrot hatred to a baying crowd. Struggling to see the relevance here.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM

It isn't hijacked, it's used. It can still be used by anyone else.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Johnny J
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:34 AM

Can we not allow the woman to rest in peace now?

By all means, let's try to change things for the better but we shouldn't carry on blaming her for the mess we're in now.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:53 AM

"It isn't hijacked, it's used"
.,,.
Ah, but is shouldn't be, should it, Manitas? ~~ not according to such as Greg, who seems to imagine that only those on his 'approved' list of right-thinking persons may be suffered to make use of anything on his 'approved' list of things, i.e. those which he regards as in some way sacrosanct & so sedulously reserved for the use solely of those who think as he does.

Perhaps he might come clean as to his criteria for inclusion on either of these lists. I should hate anything to be used at my funeral the very thought of which might give the poor dear fellow a fit of the coniptions!

~M~

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:57 AM

Over the last few days I've read and heard a great deal of garbage, mainly from Thatcher supporters, but the award for the biggest pile of dross must go to the originator of this thread.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery.
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:04 PM

I did not support Thatcher, and did not and do not approve of many of her policies when in power, but she apparently chose the hymns to be played at her funeral as she has the absolute right to do, wether this be a private family affair, or a moreformal state provided one.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM

Margaret Thatcher was a pilgrim, doing her best to modernize Britain by closing down the obsolete coal mines and encouraging new business, approving return of Hong Hong to China, and forming adjustments to the developing EU and globalization.

The hymn is apt.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM

As I see it, the hymn expresses pilgrimage, along the Christian path, towards the Life we shall inherit. It is perfectly apt for the funeral of anyone who has tried to live their spiritual life with faith in the hereafter. How absurd to criticise a choice of hymn by a person for their own funeral! What do you propose? An exam (set by you) to verify their fitness to qualify for the singing of each hymn in the service? What cheek!

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 01:22 PM

"modernize Britain by closing down the obsolete coal mines" So for 30 years I/v heard "She crushed the Unions and shut down the Mines". Are you suggesting there was a shread of credibility in her policies?

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 01:33 PM

Here come the lefties again. I shall enjoy watching part of the funeral over dinner shortly. I gather there were some idiots protesting.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:12 PM

What I didn't like was hearing that some people were throwing missiles at the horses pulling the gun-carriage on Ludgate Hill. How cruel, what had they got against the horses??

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:50 PM

Greg, I would bet that Maggie learned that hymn at school just as I did in primary school over a half century ago, grew to love it as it was, RVW version and all. It was YEARS later before I found its true origins: I can appreciate it now in ALL of its versions. (This is not to say that I'm a Thatcherite, far from it, but I'd defend her right to choose, whatever extra meanings anyone wants to attach to it).
I liked her choice of music generally, especially the Welsh tune (Hyfrydol)for "Love Divine", which we also sang at school and had at our wedding, but is now lesser known, and LD is usually sung to a very boring plonky tune by John Stainer (oh dear, did I really say that?)
And I could quote other examples of songs that are frowned upon by purists as they were not the originals, and in some cases became better known than the originals.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 03:47 PM

Whatever one thinks of the lady, it really does appear that her Christian faith meant a great deal to her. It seems rather odd that someone should appear to grudge her and her family the comforts and consolations of her Faith.

~M~

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 03:53 PM

a fabulous slice of our culture

I think you'll find it was her culture too.

Or is cultural heritage confined to 'people I like' What road is this?

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:03 PM

I suppose the real question is, does John Bunyan approve of this use of his text (or was it Percy Dearmer's text?), and if I remember to, I'll ask him next time I see him.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:24 PM

"Are you suggesting there was a shread of credibility in her policies?"

She was not to be trusted either. The former Prime Minister Lord Home urged Scottish voters to vote NO in the 1979 devolution referendum because the form of devolution did not go far enough especially in regard to tax raising powers and promised that the Tories would introduce a better devolution bill. Despite the majority of votes being YES it failed to get past the minimum votes required so the YES campaign lost. Shortly afterwards the Tory 1979 election manifesto stated "We are committed to discussions about the future government of Scotland". Then as soon as they gained power the idea was completely dropped. Then despite being only the second party in Scotland with only 31% of the vote (a whole 10% behind Labour) they chose to completely ignore Scottish opinion. The Scottish Secretary's traditional role of being Scotland's man in the Cabinet was turned into the Cabinet's man in Scotland. So from the promise of devolution and bringing democracy closer they turned to something more akin to colonialism.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:30 PM

She's believed to be carrying on her life's work even after death- word is she's closed two furnaces down already

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 05:46 PM

Whilst politically she was a complete and utter arse-parting on so many levels and whilst sadly her rancid legacy lives on, she can chose whatever hymns she wants for her funeral. I just resent paying for the bastard thing.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:29 AM

Tattie Bogle:
I liked her choice of music generally, especially the Welsh tune (Hyfrydol)for "Love Divine", which we also sang at school and had at our wedding, but is now lesser known, and LD is usually sung to a very boring plonky tune by John Stainer (oh dear, did I really say that?)
According to The Order of Service the tune was Blaenwern.
Here in S.Wales I would expect Blaenwern. In my experience Hyfrydol is better suited to "Allelluia Sing to Jesus"

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:18 AM

Sorry, my mistake! Well corrected, Nigel!

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:39 AM

I think Greg may have overstated his case this time around. He has pointed out the situational irony of a song/tune being used, which originated among people who would have had little time for Mrs. Thatcher.
Most Americans here will be aware of the way that Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land", originally a Marxist parody of "God Blessed America", has sometimes been adopted by those whom Guthrie opposed. The most ludicrous example was probably Bing Crosby's version, which omitted two of the most important verses.
You won't find many kind remarks about the late Mrs. Thatcher's policies from me either here or anywhere else. On the subject of her passing and funeral, I can live with the fact that there were those who admired her. I am not grieving, but those who loved the octogenarian widow will wish to bury their friend. I am not able to summon up any spite towards her now.
The policies are a different matter. On that issue I am with Greg all the way.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: banjoman
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:28 AM

Its all over now so why prolong the agony. I vehemently opposed her policies and still oppose those of her successors but think its time to let her rest in (peace?) The choice of hymns is not something to argue about. Far more important to ask questions of this governments attack on the poorest and weakest in our (Big) society.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:49 AM

In a discussion in Another Place on this very subject(left wing hymns used by rightwing politicos) something else was pointed out that I didn't know: that Holst(composer of "I vow to the my country") was a life-long socialist.
In view of the intemperate tone of many of the contributors to this thread, let me make clear that of course people can choos whatever hymns they like for their funerals. But equally well, if a song is used on a political occasion it is legitimate to point out the irony if the song originally had an entirely opposite political purpose.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:35 AM

Margaret Thatcher was a radical who refused to accept the conventional wisdom and went against the traditions of her own party. She was a non-conformist in religion and politics, and believed strongly in duty and service. Whether or not you agree with her policies, she applied them with conviction and a sense of moral purpose. "To be a Pilgrim" seems in many ways to sum up her attitudes.

I was also surprised to read on Facebook that "I Vow to Thee My Country" is considered a socialist anthem. It seems to me to be about the sort of nationalist patriotism that the left usually deplores.

The simple fact is that hymns like these mean different things to different people. They are part of all our culture - you cannot claim sole rights over them.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:46 AM

From memory:

But there's another country/I heard of long ago

Most dear to them that love her/Most great to them that know

We may not count her armies/We may not see her king

Her fortress is a faithful heart/Her pride is suffering

But soul by soul and silently/Her shining bounds increase

And her ways are ways of gentleness/And all her paths are peace.

I think that fits a lot more comfortably with my feelings of patriotism and those of Holst than it does with those who like the jingoistic bombast of "God Save The Queen" or "Land of Hope and Glory". (As it happened, Elgar was also very uncomfortable with the buffoon like jingoism of the words which were put to the trio of his Pomp and Circumstance March No 1).

I suppose these things do mean different things to different people. The boozers of the Corinthians Club of London, who first started singing the air to the song, which was later collared for the current American national anthem, never expected their tune to be approriated for the semi sanctity with which it is now regarded in many quarters!

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:50 AM

Holst only wrote the music.
One of his planets.
Jupiter?

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:43 AM

The part that we associate with "I vow to the my country" comes in the second main melody of "Jupiter". Here is a version of it conducted by the late Colin Davis, who sadly departed earlier this week: Jupiter by the LSO conducted by Sir Colin Davis.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: G-Force
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:56 AM

I chose "To be a pilgrim" for my brother's funeral, mainly because Paul had been a folkie and at the time (1971) it was the only hymn with a folk tune I could think of in a hurry.

I'm glad that Lady T would have approved of my choice.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:23 AM

I have a lifelong loathing of I Vow To Thee My Country.

"Alone and whole & perfect the service of my love", forsooth!

Grounds for divorce, surely.

~M~

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

Tesco used "I vow to thee my country" to advertise the wholesome nature of the British meat they sell.Not quite sure how the "entire and whole and perfect" firs in with all that horsemeat stuff.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:47 PM

It's a great tune, but maybe should have been left unworried.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Haruo
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:20 AM

In the US "Love Divine" is usually sung to Beecher by Methodists, Baptists, and the evangelical wing of things, and to Hyfrydol by the liturgical wing (read a sort of low church/high church distinction), but I personally prefer Blaenwern. Have never actually heard it sung to Love Divine (Stainer).

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Green Man
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:38 AM

Our Captain Cried All Hands,
And away tomorrow
Leaving these girls behind
In grief and sorrow.

T the tune of t' be a pilgrim.

Anyone have the rest of the words and who its attributable to??

Please?

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:59 AM

Our Captain Cried All Hands his is a traditional English folksong: Vaughan Williams rejigged the tune a bit to fit it to the words of Bunyan's hymn.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:28 AM

Also the tune of traditional song "A blacksmith courted me, Nine months and better". Three versions in DT. Peter Kennedy collected a version from Phoebe Smith according to a previous 11 year old thread.,

~M~

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Mooh
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:46 AM

I'm Canadian, so Thatcher's policies had no direct affect on me beyond my sympathies for her opponents, but if she chose her own funeral hymns, at least she did something I liked. She had the brains to choose her own hymns, and she chose ones I like. I would think her choice in this regard isn't something to be argued, it is what it is.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Rumncoke
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM

OUR CAPTAIN CRIED ALL HANDS

Our captain cried all hands and away tomorrow
Leaving my dearest dear in grief and sorrow
dry up your briny tears and leaf off weeping
How happy shall we be at our next meeting

How can do you go abroad, fighting for strangers
you had better stay at home here out of danger
I'd roll you in my arms, my dearest jewel
So stay at home with me and don't be cruel

When I had gold in store you seemed to like me
Now that I'm low and poor you mean to slight me
You courted me a while just to deceive me
Now my poor heart you've won, you're going to leave me

Down on the ground she fell like one a dying
Spreading her arms abroad sighing and crying
There is no trust in men, not your own brother
So girls if you must love, love one another

Farewell my dearest friends, father and mother
I am your only child, you have no other
Tis vain to weep for me for I am going
The lad I loved so dear has been my ruin.


I'm afraid that like so much of my songbook this is something I heard somewhere and wrote down later.

I like the hymn. So did Baroness Thatcher - and she picked it for her funeral.

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

Surely MtheGM the words are, "Entire and whole and perfect..." not "Alone..."?

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:13 PM

Bl~~dy predictive text on iPad!!! That last post of mine should have read "UNWORDED" in relation to setting any sort of words to Holst's Planet Suite!! Mendelssohn had a point with his "Lieder Ohne Worte"!

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:55 AM

Yes, Eliza; sorry for the misquote. But my point remains ~~ grounds for divorce!

~M~

Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:35 PM

LOL Michael! I wonder if 'Fight The Good Fight' is a good hymn for a Divorce Service, if ever they introduced such a thing.