5yr old shoots 2yr old

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:22 PM

I was about to apologise for mis-spelling your handle. Then I realised I got it right.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:00 PM

LOL! Look out, everyone! The country's fucked because I blew it!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 13 - 05:04 AM

"Fine, you go cower in the corner, little boy. Let us men do your fighting for you."

Well Fuckwit, you were doing fine, sounding fairly convincing, until you dropped out that little gem.

That's the kind of testosterone-overloaded horse-shit we're sick and tired of hearing from small-dick gun-nuts on here and elsewhere. It's nothing more than loud-mouth bluster, and it gains neither the gun-nut clowns nor you any respect or credit.

With attitudes like the one you showed us above, the only thing you're demonstrating is that your country is fucked.

You blew it.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:37 PM

Fine, you go cower in the corner, little boy.

Fut you too, FuckWick!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:14 PM

Or trying to enforce a ban on drugs?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bill D
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:18 PM

Sadly, there are layers to the embedded gun culture that are more complex than the tendency of 'folk' to 'folk process' old songs.

1)Guns are fascinating! Even people who would never dream of using one in anger, but were raised with guns around, love to collect and compare notes on them. The USA was created with guns..(even more sadly in many respects).

2)We have this ambiguous phrase in the 2nd amendment that 'sorta' says we can have them. To change an amendment requires a tortuous path of getting some brave legislators to introduce the idea, then getting other legislators who see their very election dependent on money from NRA lobbyists and other conservative factions...then IF 2/3 ofboth houses of Congress were to *gasp* pass such legislation, the new amendment must be ratified by ¾ of all the states withing a certain amount of time.

3)There are already so many firearms ...legal AND illegal.. out there, that any ban or limit would have almost no chance of making a dent in the total numbers. This is compounded by the fact that many of the militia-oriented 2nd amendment fanatics would take a ban or limitation as PROOF that their paranoid fears were true and that they needed to 'resist' and enter armed rebellion against their fascist government!

4)Since the latest 'incidents', sales of ammunition have gone thru the roof! Makers can barely keep up.


I can't think of a similar issue that you would recognize in the UK....maybe trying to ban fish & chips?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 19 May 13 - 01:26 PM

I am a gun control advocate who has wasted too much time arguing with knee-jerk PC liberals like you who think we could or should ban ALL guns which won't and can't happen. That doesn't mean I like guns. It means I am trying to present myself to gun owners as someone who is trying to be reasonable rather than as some rabid jerk who wants to take all their guns away. Until both sides find common ground there is no solution. I DO NOT OWN A GUN. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOST PEOPLE SHOULD OWN GUNS. I've stated this already but you apparently have a comprehension problem which you replace unsuccessfully with the snarky, smart-ass idiocy that passes for brains on mudcat.

The fact that there is a place for guns in our culture and that do they do serve legitimate beneficial purposes sticks in your craw and I'm sorry you feel that way but otherwise I don't care. The facts are the facts whether you can accept them or not.

I am not afraid of the NRA, they are bozos and Wayne LaPierre is the head clown. They're the people who talk about shooting blacks who try to move into their neighborhoods but as soon as it happens, they are the first tacking up the "For Sale" signs on the lawn ready to flee from the oh-so-uncivilized colored hordes. They have a powerful lobby, however, and have forced their agenda by buying congresspeople to kill off gun control efforts. The public then loses interest and we have to wait for the next massacre to get it started again. So the problem is really the apathetic public who give up to the gun lobby to easily. They can be reached because most of them want better gun control measures but will not listen to loonies who want to take all guns away. With hardline extremists like you, who needs the NRA to destroy gun control dialogue in this country?

And when you develop your vaccine that will make all gun owners see everything from your point of view, be sure to pass a law requiring them to line up for their shots or get thrown in jail. You'll build your master race yet, by god.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:02 PM

"Well, when they develop a vaccine against stupidity and feelings of entitlement please be sure to let me know."
.,,.
Certainly. Good that you acknowledge yourself so much in need of it.
===============
"Fine, you go cower in the corner, little boy. Let us men do your fighting for you."
.,,.
Ah, yes ~~ armed to the teeth with automatic weapons. What could be more manly indeed!

~M~

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:16 AM

WE have the means to make stem cells out of skin cells.
My wife is directly involved in this research.

but no Fucnit, there is no vaccine against willful ignorance.

There is a vaccine in development that works on the bottom stem of the flu virus and not just the head knob which changes every year making new strains that bypass last years immunity.

It is sort of a universal flu vaccine that could be stockpiled.
but don't hold your breath for your universal innoculation.
Sesquestraion and politics is sure to eventually screw this discovery up

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:07 AM

"Yes it can. I'll spell it out again. When there is some physical illness that kedps carrying off a regular proportion of the population, then we divert the best available medical brains to finding a cure. They haven't managed it for cancer yet, but they will. Most other former killers have now succumbed to the power of medical science. Not too many die of TB [the old dreaded 'consumption'] these days."

Well, when they develop a vaccine against stupidity and feelings of entitlement please be sure to let me know.

"That is a compelling argument for the carefully controlled keeping and use of hunting firearms by rural people who can distinuish between a cow, a deer and the next door neighbour. Tell me though Futwick, how many deer do you suppose are shot in city centres using automatic pistols or revolvers?"

When did I say that everybody should be armed against everybody else?

"Wrong example! His guns were licenced, so a ban would have prevented the Dunblane killings."

Wrong thing to say! I was pointing out that guns are here to stay, there can be no fully banning them and so massacres will happen and that they aren't confined to the US. By your logic, if we ban all cars there wouldn't be anymore drunken driving accidents. That would be true if we could ban all cars. If I'm wrong then why weren't guns banned in Scotland? Someone will ALWAYS have them.

"Christ, they SHOULD be - them and the "militia" and "patriot" nut case anti-government hate groups they support & vice versa. Better re-check the story of Tim McVeigh, et. al."

Fine, you go cower in the corner, little boy. Let us men do your fighting for you.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Megan L
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:14 AM

The see saw

When I was a little boy
The see saw was my favourite toy
But every time I tried to play
One of my brothers would always say

You can't play around here kid
We sit on either side
You can't sit in the middle lad
So run away and hide

I grew a bit and went to school
I worked so hard was no mans fool
When we ran to the sports field to play
The other kids would always say

You can't play around here kid
We play on either side
You can't sit in the middle lad
So run away and hide

And now I am a man full-grown
Far from family with a home of my own
Yet on the Internet I try to play
There's always people there who say

You can't play around here kid
We sit on either side
You can't sit in the middle lad
So run away and hide

mhtbl

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:03 AM

OK Everybody, get a load of this...

I was thinking about divide and control ideas and thought about how the Insurance industry is much bigger than the NRA.

ergo we need only pass a law for liability insurance, similar to car manufacturers and drivers AND apply it to guns. Good for owners and victims but bad for the NRA and the tpes of creeps who make and sell guns like the Criket 22 to 5 year olds.

Insurance companies would welcome a whole new profit industry written by themselves and for themselves. In the battle of the Titans of Insurance vs. Gun Manufacturers, my money is on the Insurance giants.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:23 AM

Nobody's scared of the NRA.

Christ, they SHOULD be - them and the "militia" and "patriot" nut case anti-government hate groups they support & vice versa.

Better re-check the story of Tim McVeigh, et. al.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:21 AM

""Even in other countries where firearms are nearly non-existent in comparison have their problems of an idiot with a gun or have we already forgotten about Dunblaine? No amount of banning can prevent that.""

Wrong example! His guns were licenced, so a ban would have prevented the Dunblane killings.

As to why they were licenced, that's another mystery.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:16 AM

""So we need a dialogue based on at least understanding that much--they are here to stay and that they DO have good uses such as the culling of animals that would otherwise overpopulate and cause a starvation crisis.""

That is a compelling argument for the carefully controlled keeping and use of hunting firearms by rural people who can distinuish between a cow, a deer and the next door neighbour.

Tell me though Futwick, how many deer do you suppose are shot in city centres using automatic pistols or revolvers?

I think you'll find that humans shot (of all ages) far outnumber game or vermin.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:45 AM

Yes it can. I'll spell it out again. When there is some physical illness that kedps carrying off a regular proportion of the population, then we divert the best available medical brains to finding a cure. They haven't managed it for cancer yet, but they will. Most other former killers have now succumbed to the power of medical science. Not too many die of TB [the old dreaded 'consumption'] these days.

Well, you over there have such an illness rife among you, killing a small but regular proportion of your demographic. It's called 'gun crime'. The cause is well known to ewvery one of you. It is your fatuous and useless gun laws [that bloody second amendment as misinterpreted practically universally over there].

So -- do you call together all the best available legal, sociological, and psychiatric minds to tackle the disease? Do you hell! ~~ Instead, you go on incessantly beating your breasts crying "Eheu eheu, we shall have to live with it for ever. The people, god bless 'em, would never tolerate any cure."

Pathetic!.

~M~

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 18 May 13 - 12:15 PM

Nobody's scared of the NRA. But they have a lot of political power. They own politicians. They don't have to pass anything, they just need enough votes to block any gun control legislation from passing and that's what they did. In this case, it was a wasted effort because that particular legislation would not have prevented kids accidentally killing other kids.

The ONLY thing that will stop that is changing the mindset of parents who think their kids are too smart and safety-conscious to ever do anything stupid with a gun. And it's obvious from how often these tragedies occur that these people don't care. And warning them is pointless because they get indignant with their "Don't you tell me how to raise my kid, you Obama-loving faggot! You're the one destroying this country!" And then they practice even less gun safety than they otherwise would because they're going to show you and your tree-hugging liberal fag ass how REAL Americans handle guns, goddamn you!!

I submit that this attitude cannot be changed. It infects probably half of all Americans and definitely affects the vast majority of gun-owners. The NRA does what it can to foster this mentality in gun-owners because it sells more guns and more ammo. Any attempt to restrict sales of a certain type of firearm CAUSES a run on the sales of that weapon putting more of them on the street than ever before. Gun sellers, in fact, use this as a sales tactic in gun magazines and websites: "Get this little baby while it's still legal because it may not be after August 12th!!!" And they do--they buy themselves that little baby. I know a guy who bought an AR-15 recently. When I asked him what he needed it for, his answer was: "I don't have any need for it, I just want one." That mentality, I humbly submit to you, canNOT be changed.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 May 13 - 11:13 AM

I haven't posted on the Cat for weeks. Fed up with all the confrontation. But when humane, intelligent people like Joe Offer write glibly and complacently about living 'in a gun culture, like the county where I live', as if that was some sort of law of nature about which nothing can be done, rather than the sign of a nation which has just plain got it wrong for nearly 300 years, then I jump in yet again:~~

to say that it isn't a law of nature; constitutional amendments can be repealed [like Prohibition, for instance], when they are shown to be anti-social and counterproductive. If you wanted to do something about your dysfunctional gun laws then you could do it in next to no time, with adequate legal research and the will to achieve it, just as you could find a cure for a disease which was regularly killing off a small but perennial proportion of your population. But you're just all running too pathetically scared of your loathsome NRA to the point of acute nationwide mental paralysis from which practically none of you seems immune. ("We live in a gun culture" -- aaaarrrrrgggghhhhhh!).

So stop being so feeble, for heaven's sake, with your "gun cultures" and your "2nd amendments" and all the rest of your pathetic special pleading in the face of persistent abuse which makes you a perpetual hissing and byword to other civilised nations.

As if... Go back to sleep Michael!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:33 AM

Eliza:
I'm not sure if deer in UK have any natural predators. We have no wolves (only the football variety) and the only other way they are killed is on the roads.

There are no natural predators other than man, but to say the only way they're killed is on the roads is just not true....deer are culled in the UK in significant numbers, from stalking in Scotland to less publicised culling in England and Wales. They're not culled in sufficient numbers though, hence the population explosion in the last 15-20 years.

I've recently been the beneficiary of venison donations from near Forres and from Devon, both of which had been shot. Closer to home I've regularly enjoyed venison in Kent which had been shot by a farming friend.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 18 May 13 - 09:07 AM

It all ties together. As soon as you open a dialogue on guns, you get two kinds of extremists: those who want to give anyone any type of arms they want in any quantity and those who want to ban all guns and neither side cares about the consequences of their stances. Moreover neither side will give an inch on their stances and admit that going to such extremes is a not very good idea and will offer up the lamest of reasons why their stance is correct.

The point is, guns are here to stay--like it or not. So we need a dialogue based on at least understanding that much--they are here to stay and that they DO have good uses such as the culling of animals that would otherwise overpopulate and cause a starvation crisis. And it certainly is not just the US that has over-the-top mass murderers with firearms. Even in other countries where firearms are nearly non-existent in comparison have their problems of an idiot with a gun or have we already forgotten about Dunblaine? No amount of banning can prevent that.

However, such massacres are certainly far less around the world than what goes on in the US and so the US could benefit from either more gun control laws or more stringent application of current gun laws--probably a bit of both.

But the problem, as I see it, is not so much the availability of guns so much as it is what can be summed up in three letters: NRA. The NRA is THE major impediment to a safer society. Banning assault rifles would do nothing to prevent little kids from shooting each other with .22 rifles. It's the mindset that kids should have guns at all that is the problem here. It's the mindset of believing your kid doesn't need adult supervision and that people who think they do are just liberal faggots who need both barrels of a shotgun shoved up their arses. That is the mindset fostered and defended by the NRA whose ONLY purpose to make money for the gun industry regardless of how many innocent people have to die to keep those profits rolling in. Until that mindset changes, this type of tragedy simply can't be stopped with any amount of legislation.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: s&r
Date: 18 May 13 - 07:45 AM

When I started this thread it was with sorrow, horror and bewilderment at a situation that can allow such dreadful occurrences. In my book not just another gun thread, and not much to do with culling deer.

Stu

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:42 AM

WTF??

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:20 AM

@Don Thompson - and even less frequently with you!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:46 AM

"Only a hundred posts so far? Where is your spirit? Gee whiz and golly gosh, given that there are thousands and thousands of posts on previous gun threads, you lot are sorely slack on commenting on shit you know nothing about. That ain't the Mudcat I know and love."

Maybe we're sick and tired of talking to bone-heads. You can't educate pork.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: gnu
Date: 17 May 13 - 04:02 PM

I saw yet another gun tread was at over 100 posts so I decided to check back in and the last few posts only.

McGrath... "Any problem of there being too many deer only arises where the natural predators have been wiped out. Wolves do the job better, and might well be less likely to kill people than unregulated hunters with overpowered weapons."

Buddy, ya gotta read more. And, on toppa that, man IS a natural predator. He's got canine teeth and guns that do a far more humane job than any other predator when he kills. 99.999999% of deer killed by humans have no idea they are dead meat until they are. Being chased by wolves and brought down savagely and eaten while still alive? I think if the deer had to "like" a predator on Facebook, they would like me and my dirty thirty over a wolf any day.

Only a hundred posts so far? Where is your spirit? Gee whiz and golly gosh, given that there are thousands and thousands of posts on previous gun threads, you lot are sorely slack on commenting on shit you know nothing about. That ain't the Mudcat I know and love.

See you in another hundred posts or so.

Oh yeah... for those that don't know my stance on gun control... I am all for good gun laws and vehemently opposed to bad gun laws. If you really do wanna know my stance and WHY you can read MANY MANY MANY of my posts over YEARS herein. If ye can't be arsed to do so or to read up and educate yourselves... the NRA wins. Your call.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:53 PM

I'm not sure if deer in UK have any natural predators. We have no wolves (only the football variety) and the only other way they are killed is on the roads. I expect the very hard winters we've had recently have reduced their numbers a tiny bit, but here in Norfolk for example there are blooming deer of all kinds everywhere! (I like them, but they do destroy woodland habitats and munch your garden vegetables, especially the little muntjacs.)

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:23 PM

It doesn't matter. If there are too many deer then there are too many deer.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 13 - 12:47 PM

Any problem of there being too many deer only arises where the natural predators have been wiped out. Wolves do the job better, and might well be less likely to kill people than unregulated hunters with overpowered weapons.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:29 AM

The crazy thing is, there was recently another case of an 8yo shooting his 5yo brother in the head with a .22 rifle and then the VERY NEXT DAY I read about a 4yo shooting a 6yo neighbor in the head with a .22 rifle. And all this came on the heels of a 3yo shooting a deputy's wife to death because the idiots left a handgun where a kid could pick it up and obviously weren't watching.

You would think after the boy shot his sister that people would think twice about leaving weapons unattended around children and they obviously don't. What does it take? These people think that these other people were stupid and that won't happen with his kid because his kid is smart and knows gun safety. How can you get through to people that damned dense? That's why we can't get any meaningful gun control laws passed, these are the kinds of fucking idiots we're dealing with--the face of the NRA

Then all these cases, the only time charges were filed against anyone was the case of the 4yo shooting the 6yo--his father is being charged. Why aren't they being charged across the board?? Because they've suffered enough?? I don't give a shit! It shows how lax we are as a nation about stupid behavior and firearms. And it's obvious this will keep happening because we are determined not to learn from the stupidity of others.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:43 AM

"There really is NO need for the whole population to be armed to the teeth with every sort of weapon, at any age, brandishing lethal purchases from any old gunshop and killing anything which moves including people. Total madness."

Thanks for that info. I wasn't aware that I was advocating that.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:18 AM

Guns don't kill kids. Kids kill kids. (nod to Garry Trudeau).

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 01:21 PM

You know she rarely agreed with you in public.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:08 AM

See you on the 18th, then, and you can bring your ouija board and see which of us Jacqui agrees with...

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:53 AM

INDUBITABLY!

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 13 - 07:37 AM

Pot, kettle?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:51 AM

""This is getting very worrying - I have agreed with (or been agreed with by) Don Thompson, Mither, Primitive Tribesman, the other one who changed his name, and now her.   Who AM I turning into?   Mind you I agree with Steve Shaw a lot too.""

Just goes to show that once we get you off the subject of UK Politics, you are quite a sensible fellow.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:11 AM

Oh shit. Now I agree with Eliza.   This is getting very worrying - I have agreed with (or been agreed with by) Don Thompson, Mither, Primitive Tribesman, the other one who changed his name, and now her.   Who AM I turning into?   Mind you I agree with Steve Shaw a lot too.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:15 AM

Deer-culling IS practised here in UK, and is more than ever necessary as the deer population has increased enough to be causing problems. But the culling is done by licensed people, who have to register like anyone else an Application to own a firearm, and be approved after a Police check. There are restrictions on when and how they cull, and they take specifically-chosen animals. We don't just allow the general public to whizz off into the countryside bristling with massive automatic weapons and let fly at anything that moves, hitching the carcasses to their bumpers. Private shoots ( for game of many sorts) are organised on a person's land, again under strict control. There are also gun clubs and firing ranges for sport, all tightly controlled. So we aren't paranoid about guns, we're just sensible and careful, with the Police involved in approval, verifying and inspecting arms and their storage. There really is NO need for the whole population to be armed to the teeth with every sort of weapon, at any age, brandishing lethal purchases from any old gunshop and killing anything which moves including people. Total madness.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:07 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:10 AM

Not smugness and glee, but total disgust.

Disgust with a nation that has laws that allow young children to own an object for which the sole purpose of its design is to kill.

Disgust with a nation that in spite of shooting tragedies being a regular occurence still insists in voting for politicians who block any attempt to control access to firearms.

Disgust with a nation that proactively promotes firearm ownership and is not able to make the connection that the easier it is to buy firearms, the easier it is for murderers to buy firearms.

Disgust with a nation that remains collectively defensive every time there is a new tragedy instead of hanging its head in shame.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:03 PM

Richard, deer-hunting season IS an organized cull. The DNR counts the deer and decide how many can be harvested in a season and a meticulous count is kept. Usually, only bucks of a certain age may be taken although I think there may be an occasional doe season but it's certainly not normally allowed. There's also a bow season during which guns are absolutely prohibited. Bow hunters generally don't take many deer, though. You have to have a gun season to cull the population. Deer hunters are overwhelmingly cooperative in what they take. Killing a doe or fawn or taking deer out of season is strongly prohibited and those who get caught doing it never do it again. Other hunters will turn you in if they see you doing it. Deer hunters are generally not a bunch of idiots as they come from all walks of life--factory-workers, office-workers, lawyers, bankers, craftsmen, even housewives. White-tailed deer is BY FAR the biggest game animal in Michigan and populations are found in ALL counties in Michigan and I mean literally ALL.

If deer-hunting was banned, the DNR would have to kill thousands of deer from helicopters and leave the carcasses to rot. It just isn't practical. Deer-hunting is very well organized and is the ONLY effective measure of holding the deer population to a sustainable level. It is a passion here and it is a necessity.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:00 PM

Futwick - letting a bunch of idiots loose with lethal weapons is not a clever answer to deer overpopulation. An ORGANISED cull might be. On the other hand I suppose a mirror argument could be made about dangerous bipeds.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 May 13 - 06:34 PM

""I do not believe "that the whole nineteenth century in the USA was punctuated by the sound of private citizens filling each other with lead.""

Which would seem to clash with the stories of range wars, the guerilla activities of Quantrell and "Bloody Bill" Anderson and the need for town tamers such as Hickock, the Earps, Bat Masterson etc. etc, not to mention the "Indian Wars" and the Civil War.

Even allowing that their stories were somewhat exaggerated, the Colt .45 calibre that most of them used was actually named "Peacemaker", which suggests that Boot Hill may have been the most, and in some cases the only, peaceful place in the nineteenth century USA.

It gives me no pleasure at all to point out to people I would classify as friends that the path they are on leads to more, not less, killing of innocents, and I am very far from feeling smug and gleeful when I do so.

I look at their situation from a place which once had the same problems, but where I can now walk the streets at night in safety and often do, and I feel a deep and abiding sadness that they cannot (apparently) see beyond the outdated and outmoded comments of men who could not have foreseen the changes to come, nor the effect of what they chose to enshrine in a document, upon a totally different society 237 years later.

Genuine heartfelt sadness for the innocent victims and the families condemned to mourn their lost ones till the day they die.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 07 May 13 - 05:02 PM

Whether anyone finds hunting morally repugnant is frankly laughable. So what? There MUST be deer-hunting in Michigan--period. Is deer meat consumed by deer hunters? You bet it is. I get several pounds of venison every year from friends and coworkers who hunt. There are places that process deer meat--take your kill to them and they will turn it into steak, sausage and you name it. And it's good! Bothers you? Tough shit. From a Government of Michigan website:

In the late 1980s, the Department of Natural Resources reaffirmed its goal of 1.3 million deer in the fall herd (which was biologically the same as the 1971 goal of 1 million deer in the spring herd) and continues to work toward that goal. Unfortunately, the large deer herd has begun to have a significant impact on their own habitat and the habitats of other animals. In some areas, they have nearly eliminated certain plants, which may provide food and or shelter for other wildlife.

The build-up of deer in urban and suburban areas has also become a challenge. Other than fencing, nonlethal control methods have usually been unsuccessful or impractical, and lethal controls have eventually been applied. Management of deer in urban and suburban settings will provide many future opportunities for public education and involvement.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:45 PM

Bloody hell! I'm in total agreement with everything Richard said!
Now I'm worried! :-)

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:55 PM

But to return to the topic - this death is as much due to the unbelievable laxity of the US legal system as to stupidity.

If there had been no gun (as would have been the case in England) there would have been no death. If, as would have been the case in the very rare cases in the UK where rifles are lawfully kept in the home, they would have been in a locked gun cabinet securely fixed to the structure of the dwelling.

Has anyone got real US statistics for the proportion of food that is procured by hunting compared to that which is not (and that which is wasted)? I am in little doubt that there is no rational case to defend hunting for food. Hunting for sport is morally repugnant, like all other deliberate infliction of suffering.

We know where the "right to bear arms" for "self defence" and to "stand one's ground" leads. Trayvon. There is no rational case for the US love of hot lead.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:49 PM

1812 - UK attempts to reduce illegal invasions of British territory, and illegal slaughter of indigenous populations by an illegal revolutionary government (now called the USA).

1922 Jim - an illegal revolution by people lawfully ruled by England since the early 1600s.


They ceased to be illegal when England in both cases surrendered - but not until.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bettynh
Date: 07 May 13 - 11:23 AM

For the record and then I'm done with this thread:

"Why such a fuss, in a country where people shooting each other is a normal part of life and death?" People don't normally shoot each other here. Guns are most often used as tools for hunting or target sports. I believe people who carry guns for "self-protection" or stockpile them for the coming Armageddon are a minority of gun owners (although they may own the majority of guns).

I do not believe "that the whole nineteenth century in the USA was punctuated by the sound of private citizens filling each other with lead."

I do not believe "during the Stone Age we ALL went around bashing people over the head with clubs and transfixing them with spears etc."

"Americans are so intent on murdering each other..." Nope, don't believe that.

"Well those are the liberties you hold dear as a nation, so wouldn't a few kids getting their brains blown out be a price worth paying??" Nobody said that.

And I don't believe, "Young children up to the age of eight or so have to be protected from any sort of risk/danger around the home." If I had waited until they were eight, my boys would have been in real danger. They needed to be engaged in modifying their own behavior waaaay before that.

As for, "Guns would have aided in that situation in Boston?" There were plenty of guns there - they didn't help at all.

I don't believe that I live in "a country where people shooting each other is a normal part of life and death"

It saddens me no end that so many people have such a warped view of American life and are so smug and gleeful in expressing their disdain.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 07 May 13 - 09:15 AM

Well those are the liberties you hold dear as a nation, so wouldn't a few kids getting their brains blown out be a price worth paying?? it definitely would NOT be here.

"Guns would have aided in that situation in Boston? " - well it might have saved three lives if every student who carries a backpack is taken out - just in case. Why stop there, do you really know what a pensioner has in her shopping trolley?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:41 PM

the Coroner's assessment of the tragedy... was startlingly dismissive and inappropriate

More evidence of the need to criminalize stupidity.