BS: 3D Gun printing

Subject: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:32 AM

A 3D-printed gun has reportedly been produced and fired. Here's a clip from the BBC site

======
Mr Wilson, who describes himself as a crypto-anarchist, said his plans to make the design available were "about liberty".

He told the BBC: "There is a demand of guns - there just is. There are states all over the world that say you can't own firearms - and that's not true anymore.

"I'm seeing a world where technology says you can pretty much be able to have whatever you want. It's not up to the political players any more."

Asked if he felt any sense of responsibility about whose hands the gun might fall into, he told the BBC: "I recognise the tool might be used to harm other people - that's what the tool is - it's a gun.

"But I don't think that's a reason to not do it - or a reason not to put it out there."
=====

The US gun law debates are pretty extensive, even on Mudcat. But I'd be quite interested in the views of US citizens what they think of the idea of allowing laws of all other countries to be bypassed in this way. There's no need to discuss this is the context of US citizenry, as I believe that's covered elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:34 AM

Apologies, that was from me.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:10 AM

I saw the news article this morning, and the other thing that disturbs me is that from my understanding no two 'traditionally' manufactured guns fire the same way, so anything 'fired' has a unique fingerprint, whereas the '£D guns' would all be identical, ,and as such untraceable.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:27 AM

A gun is pretty irrelevant, but a 3D-printable ground-to-air missile that could take out a drone, a helicopter gunship or a manned bomber might change things a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Van
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:51 AM

the BBC report was very shallow. A man made a gun which went BANG! no sign of target with a hole in it, no sign of any ammo. Is it any more serious a weapon than we had as children playing cowboys and Indians or is it a guy with a big ego who has designed something that looks less real than a water pistol and people would laugh at (perhaps to death.)

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:57 AM

You are right as far as you go, Van. If you actually wanted a gun in the next few years, this isn't the way to do it. The costs of the printer today would buy a lot of under-the-counter weapons. But that is a somewhat different point. Technology will improve, prices will fall, but the problem will remain

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:16 AM

Complete Red Herring.....Clever, but pointless. Flimsy plastic, probably fires one pathetic shot before self destruction...Interesting and quirky, but that's about it (Oh and the printer costs about 8000 dollars! No, If you want a gun (for free) in the US just open a bank account, and choose from your own selection of high velocity rifles. Bonkers!

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:25 AM

I noticed from the pic, that they had 3 spare barrels, which suggests to me that they don't expect them to last long. It also appears to be single shot. So as is, it's not a great threat to the world, but it's still a gun, and I hate guns! They're unnecessary outside of the armed forces.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:51 AM

If you want a gun (for free) in the US just open a bank account
Yes, Ralphie, that's true, but it is specifically the effect of such things outside the US I was concerned about. You can't stop these things spreading by controlling the internet - the plans once created could spread via USB sticks, CDs, whatever. So once a reasonable set of plans exist, they become effectively uncontrollable. No doubt there is an inherent technological problem: by design the plastic must melt under the effects of lasers (if I have the printing mechanism right) and a plastic with that sort of behaviour may be inherently unsuitable for weaponry. But the single use objection isn't necessarily an obstacle depending on the context. It's not a good way to equip an army but for terrorist purposes, for example, the limited lifetime might not matter.

Ultimately it was a broader question I had in mind though. How do US citizens think the second amendment relates to other countries? For example, does the amendment right for US citizens override any consideration of what such technology might mean for every other country in the world? For example, if this is justified in terms of "liberty" as in the original post, does it matter than in many other countries in the world it is likely to encourage increased surveillance of their citizens by the government?

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:23 AM

Something like this by the roadside in Afghanistan could even up the numbers a bit:

http://cannonsuperstore.com/vandenburggun.htm

But where do you get ammo for these things? You can't print cordite.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:26 AM

I marvel that a discussion on 3D printing centers on the singular topic of making guns.

The miracle of 3D printing is that it can make working models (copies) almost anything the mind can conceive. While I don't know about their long-term durability, just think of all the things one could make from simple gears and replacement parts for machinery to complete artificial hearts and other prosthetic devices...if not now, someday soon.

And, yes, with great technology comes great responsibility, to paraphrase Voltaire (I think). So you think negatively on guns, I'll look forward to medical technology.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:49 AM

The point, John, is that somebody has already thought aout, designed and produced a gun, and now plans to put the capacity to do the same into the eager hands of evry gangbanger and nutjob in the world.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:03 AM

The thing about a gun is that it often takes 'only' one shot to cause serious issues.

I am one American who hopes they will find ways to curtail ANY easy way to mass-produce weapons. (Those printers have to programmed.... could it be possible to build in restrictions on certain shapes? ...just brainstorming)

Right now they are limited to certain plastic/resin items........ but you can bet there are guys experimenting with adding other materials to the mix.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:15 AM

It takes two metal pipes or tubes, one larger diameter than the other, a nail, and a piece of wood to make a functional shotgun.

The US made and dropped a number into Europe during WW II. They cost less than $2 each.

The only tools required are a hammer ( or hard rock) and a file ( or rough rock). A saw can make it easier, though.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:17 AM

Oh, duct tape or a rag helps as well, but string, a vine, or wire can be used...

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:59 AM

But that way, bb, you do run the risk of doing yourself a serious injury through incompentance, before you get the chance to injure anyone else. With a (perfected) 3D printed gun, that wouldn't happen.

While I'll extol the benefits of 3D printing for medicine etc as much as anyone, that's not the issue in question, which I refer you to above. This line about "with technology comes great responsibility" doesn't cover it, though. We have here a guy who says "I choose not to accept that responsibility". Now what?

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:00 PM

Zip guns- remember those used by inner-city gangs in the 1950s? Any handyman can make one.

Even Wikipedia illustrates a simple homemade zip gun, and suggests ways to improvise and make lethal weapons.
3-D printing takes specialized equiment; interesting, but ho-hum.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:44 PM

The hype about 3D printed stuff of many kinds has been buzzed on the internet for several months, with lesser notice going much farther back.

The method has been in use for at least a couple of decades in industry, and with an industrial setup that uses ion implantation and/or plasma condensation useful materials can be applied that have the strength and hardness - and the accurate dimensional control - to make more or less functional parts.

An industrial grade 3D printer has a starting purchase price in the vicinity of $300,000 for the basic machinery, NOT INCLUDING the control computer and programming to actually make anything. "Growing" a part large enough to be useful can take more like months than minutes. It is NOT a production process, although some have used it for "prototypes" and to make test specimens during development of new machinery.

An adequate conventional milling machine can be had for a home shop as cheaply as about $3,000 (with a tradeoff between heavier used machinery or smaller new stuff) and a local junk yard gets you all the raw stock you need to make a "real part" that's both functional and durable enough to be useful.

In the first publicised test firing of a "3D printed gun" they managed to "fire" exactly 5 rounds before it fell apart. This is quite comparable to the $7 (list price a long time ago) "pistol" I bought for $2 just to get it out of the hands of a neighborhood kid who apparently had bought it "out of curiosity" and then didn't know what to do with it. (He wasn't criminal, just curious, and he realized he didn't want it after we had a "a little talk.")

That "pistol" was conventionally made by a "commercial manufacturer" and was actually more functional than the plastic one. It fired 7 rounds before it broke itself. Jokes about "hotter than a two-dollar pistol" have a very solid basis in FACT.

Any competent machinist with a reasonable basic knowledge of weaponry can make a functional gun with sufficient reliability for safe test firing and potentially to be of actual use for some "shooting purpose." (Not all shooting uses have criminal intent or results.) Hardly anyone actually makes "home made guns" despite it being quite simple and cheap. It's just not generally worth the effort for what you get.

None of the 3D printers available to the recent faddists (some of which do cost >$10,000) can make anything out of much other than non-structural plastic. While the "close tolerances" are impressive if you're making chess pieces or garden gnomes, they don't begin to approach what's needed for "precision machines with moving parts." Claims of what wonderful things they've made are more a demonstration of eligibility for a "Darwin Award" than a proof that they have achieved a compensation for the normal sized P***K the maker lacks as an accident of birth.

The claim cited above that the "developer" thinks he's "beating the system" by revealing "secrets" are total BULLSHIT, since any knowledgeable designer can find, or create from scratch, all the necessary blueprints for about anything (including any gun) that's ever had its picture in a newspaper. There are no "secrets" about anything these nuts are doing.

If one of these guys came up with something useful, like an ejection seat for his Porsche, he'd probably demonstrate it in a parking garage with a low ceiling. They're not bucking the system. They're fighting Darwin, and some of them will probably win the award, if they do a lot better than they have so far.

John

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:44 PM

No disagreement, JohnInKansas

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: gnu
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:53 PM

Seems to me I saw sommat on the internut about a plastic gun several years ago. The cartridge is somewhat pyramid shaped and the mag holds a lot of them. Then again, I might not have. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:55 PM

I'm waiting until they put out a Racheal Welsh at 20 years old, thank you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:05 PM

gnu -

There have been a number of "plastic bullets" going quite a way back, and your description sounds more like one of those. One such was called a "somethingorother-Jet" (might have been "gyrojet?") and had a minimal "case" that burned out completely, with the propellant mostly in the bullet so that it was more like a rocket than a normal slug. It had "fins" so it could look like a rocket and did have sort of a "triangular shape."

The blather claimed no cartridge to eject for rapid reloading, very light weight ammo so troops could carry a lot more, and "advanced technology." The advertising omitted the minor problems that nobody could hit a target with it very often, and sometimes the ammo exploded in the can instead of in the gun; but it made a splash with the news writers.

There were lots of others, so it's just a guess whether this might be the one you recall.

John

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: gnu
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:24 PM

Thanks, JiK. This just confirms I haven't lost it completely... quite yet. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:55 PM

The guy who made the printed gun in the latest reports is the same one who had previously posted his plans at "MakerBot" which is a general site for 3D-Printer enthusiasts.

The plans were pulled off that site when they attracted attention in an earlier "anti-gun wave" sometime around December 2012.

There was a "test firing" of the design posted at MakerBot at around that time, so the new announcement of the "first ever test firing" in the latest report just shows that the reporters don't really know much about what's been going on. The first test, IIRC, managed to get 5 rounds out before it destroyed itself. The latest test got 6, so it was obviously more successful - but wasn't a first. Others may be more impressed with the splendid progress demonstrated than I am(?).

The "new gun" does appear to be a different design than the first one, but of course the news reports don't tell enough to make more than guesses about what actually got changed.

The description of the "Industrial Grade" printer that cost $10,000 is almost a joke. Multiply by at least ten. ...

... Although I did spend most of one night making a model of a "missile and launcher" that I slipped to the boss sort of as a joke as he was leaving to make a pitch. When he came back he said "We blew it on the pitch, but when I pulled out the model all the Generals woke up and played with it and then they signed on the bottom line." I guess my $3 worth of balsa** was "industrial quality" too, so maybe some allowance can be made. That model probably could have been done on their printer in about three weeks once the program for it was finished.

** and one bent paper clip.

John

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:55 PM

If I knew beforehand that a gun was destined to destroy itself after being fired five or six times, I don't think I'd want to fire it once!

Though I've met a one-armed guitar player, I don't have any desire to be one.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:52 PM

Printed guns would be frighteningif real guns were difficult, or particularly expensive to acquire. Re undetectibility by x-rays----the gun may not show up, but the cartridges would.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 May 13 - 09:08 PM

gnu, those were called "trounds" and they were used in a prototype pistol in the early 1960s. They were, if I remember, fired electrically and the entire project kinda petered out due to lack of interest and limited use possibilities.

Yes, there was a pistol called the "Gyrojet." It fired (electrically) .45 caliber (about 11mm) "rocket propelled" bullets. That is, the fuel continued to burn and accelerate the bullet down the (vented) barrel instead of a sudden burst of hot gases propelling the projectile, which loses velocity as soon as it leaved the barrel. Again, the use for such a weapon was (and is) limited. My youngest brother carried one when flying over Vietnam, as the tracer round he would fire was about the only thing that would penetrate the triple canopy jungle and alert SAR to his position so he could get outa there.

Want plans for a Sten gun, capable of being made in any fairly well equipped home workshop? See "The Anarchist's Cookbook," still available in bookstores and online.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 09:12 PM

You can shoot a .22 rimfire with a transistor radio antenna. Just not very accurately.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 09:15 PM

This technology stuff doesn't always pan out. Back in the 80s a friend faxed me a sheet of acid.

It was no good.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:16 PM

You don't need accuracy for an assassination or an execution, or in a "gunfight" range of three feet.* The "Liberator" pistol (.45 ACP) was dropped by the OSS to the various European undergrounds during WW2 with the intent that it would be used one or perhaps two times to obtain a better weapon by shooting a German soldier.





*Yes, I am very much aware of such events as the Luke Short-Jim Courtright shooting match. I am also aware that the average distance for the use of firearms by police in the US is 21 feet. But if you are shooting from three or four feet away at another you will probably hit someone. Of course with homemade firearms you take the chance that the thing will blow up in your hand and you will lose a couple of fingers, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:21 AM

Dick,

There is caseless ammunition, and bullets need to be dense, not metallic.

So, a ceramic bullet on caseless ammunition would NOT show up in X-rays

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:59 AM

Rap -

Be careful about the "Anarchists Cookbook." There are multiple different versions in circulation, most of which will kill you before you get to the second chapter if you decide to try out any of the "recipes."

I've had four different ones that I bought just to get them off of the "sale tables" before some ignorant kid got to them. Not much of a dent in the market, but I figured a couple of bucks that might save one kid was worth it. All four had so many things wrong they'd be lethal if you followed the instructions.

There was an "original" that was mostly "authentic" but I'm not sure how you'd tell now whether you've got the "real one." There are better sources for almost anything you'd find there, even in the original, although a first edition has some fun things to talk about among friends you can trust not to get "adventurous."

John

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 May 13 - 09:50 AM

Oh, I bought my copy (and it IS the original) out of the "Humor" section of a bookstore just to keep it out of little hands. I'd trust my copy of "The Manual of Improvised Explosives" more -- it's a US military publication -- which I bought for the same reason. "The Poor Man's James Bond" (reason, ditto) is iffy at best. Now books like "Absinthe and Flamethrowers" describe stuff that would actually work ("Backyard Ballistics" is the first in the series) and also provide safety advice.

My problem is that having once been a paid, trained killer for the US Army I know too damned much.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:41 PM

bb-
I know about caseless ammo and plastic (or ceramic) bullets, but it still seems like a ridiculously complicated way to go when so many other, more effective alternatives are readily available.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:37 PM

I'll put my zip gun up against this 3D printed wonder any day.

When I was young, we made many explosives. Some were exceedingly dangerous, exploding if they received a slight blow.

The chemistry sets we had then have been long gone from the market, also druggists no longer have the chemicals we would buy from them because they no longer practice the chemical arts but buy their remedies ready-made from the drug wholesalers.

All of the information is out there, however. A short search in any library will yield the "recipes."

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 13 - 06:21 PM

It is a little disappointing that, despite the question in the opening post and its reiteration, no US responder has acknowledged other countries even exist, beyond a reference to dropping guns on Europe during WWII. Instead, we are back to the same old ground. Ho hum.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:03 PM

It's difficult to see why there should be comment about other countries in a thread about a stupid experiment performed in the US by a nut who claims to be "protesting" US laws, most of which don't exist, and that has been sensationalized mainly in the US press - with no "foreign interest by anyone outside the US" sufficient to have elicited a post in the thread - but:

A recent report did indicate that of the estimated 70,000 downloads (in 3 days?) of the "plans" for the "3D Gun" since the first report, about 70% of the downloads were by people in Europe. I think 2 or 3 countries were named as "leaders" in the download herd. (That's from memory, since it's not really interesting enough to worry about verification.)

It should also be noted that known sales of 3D printers indicate that fewer than about 3% of those who downloaded the "blueprints" could possibly have a 3D printer of any kind or even access to one, with far fewer having one capable of doing anything with those particular plans.

To those minimally knowledgeable of US law, the "question" in the first post is of little interest, since in fact NO US LAWS WERE VIOLATED by making, firing, or publishing drawings for the P.O.S. under discussion. (An inert slug of metal was even included for the sole purpose of making it NOT INVISIBLE to transportation security XRays, Magnetometers, Sonograms, and/or trained cockroaches.)

Local laws are a little different since the last official (BATF) report I have indicated something over 34,000 of them that would need to be individually checked. I suppose I could do a search to see if "plastic" appears in any of them, but it's not at the top of my list.

John

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:24 AM

Well, the reason is that the experiment has implications for other countries, particularly those with stricter gun laws than the US

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:48 AM

I should perhaps pick up the emphasised point that no existing US laws were broken. Indeed. So question arise is that all that matters? Is the attitude: Other countries? It's their problem to cope with whatever we choose to do.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:09 AM

The guy who made the printed gun is a licensed firearms manufacturer, registered with and licensed by the Federal Government to manufacture and sell guns and gun parts, exactly the same as any other manufacturer with the same license. How he made the gun is immaterial, and the mere fact that he did it the hard way at ridiculous expense, and made a product so obviously inferior that most rational people would consider it more of a bad toy than a functional device does not affect that he did it according to the applicable US Federal laws.

If there is a concern elsewhere, it would seem more appropriate for those who have such concerns to voice them, and explain why they're frightened, than for those in the US to attempt to imagine what those concerns might be.

Those elsewhere may have difficulties with understanding our tolerance for people who do dumb things, but we generally prefer to prohibit only the things that are actually and demonstrably harmful to others. It's one of the things that makes us such "good neighbors" in the international community - and so dearly loved by the whole world.

John

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:14 AM

"prohibit only the things that are actually and demonstrably harmful to others" - er - like guns? Or was that the rarest of natural fauna in its own habitat, an ironic American?

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:03 AM

Ok, let's try a different tack. The US has regulations about the export of weaponry. Where does a digital set of instructions to create a weapon which needs specialise human skills to manufacture fit in? Unrestricted export?

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:06 AM

Damn! ... NO specialist skills ...

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:33 AM

The most likely use for a gun of this type is for terrorism, since it is difficult for security scanners to detect. American seems to have woken up to terrorism only since 9/11, and (that event notwithstanding) have relatively little experience of it, apart from a long-held enthusiasm for shooting your own politicians.

Those of us in other parts of the world for whom the threat of terrorism is, or has been, a daily concern see this latest development as adding to that threat. This is probably misguided, since this has been a possibility ever since 3D printing was invented, but actually achieving it and publicising the process nevertheless seems to some to be irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:53 AM

I can remember when the Glock was introduced- I was informed that "It was only good for hijackers." since it had a composite frame. No need for ANY legitimate gun user to have one.

Funny thing, all the "hijackers" that I have seen with Glocks had uniforms of one sort or another on. ( Police or military)


And they all have 17 or 19 round magazines... ( the Glocks)

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 May 13 - 11:45 AM

Why anyone continues to treat this gimmick as a real threat is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:00 PM

Because I'd rather have thought out what to do while it is a gimmick than wait until someone publishes a viable system in a way no-one can control.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:17 PM

You have a long wait. One could buy dozens of Glocks for the price of the 3D equipment and have weapons that are re-usable and efficient.

The story is just one of those tabloid-level fillers.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:34 PM

Maybe one could buy dozens of Glocks in the US, but as I keep pointing out there are other countries. Now, I see that some 3D plastics retail at 3USD per kilogram. That may not be the relevant plastic but it gives an idea of the prices we are talking about. Even at todays prices - they will fall - a terrorist group wanting a hundred weapons who main purpose was to threaten could use the current stuff effectively and economically.

Now, I'm not in a panic - I know we are at the early stages of all this stuff. But that's all the more reason to reflect on it before it reaches the point of being a serious problem.

Subject: RE: BS: 3D Gun printing
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:41 PM

The same "object" could be made more easily with a big block of better plastic, a pocket knife, and a file. A hand drill would be a helpful addition, but not really necessary.

Regarding the Glock - it still has a steel barrel and a couple of springs more than sufficient for detection by even crude metal detectors and/or XRAY detection systems. The plastic will show in even a crude XRAY as at least a shape.

The last time I went to the downtown cop shop to deliver a piece of paper, the guys at the entry inspection detected each of the two individual paper clips holding my checkbook record booklet together - separately, and made me pull the checkbook out TWICE so they could verify that both "hits" were for the same "dangerous object."

You really think they can't detect a hammer spring 20+ times the size of a BIG paper clip, if they want to, when the guy behind you in the checkout line can read the mag stripe on your debit card if he can get within about 20 inches of the pocket you put it in - and really wants to?

John