BS: UK politics?

Subject: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:55 AM

As the death toll from Atos assessments on benefits rises, as the eviction from homes due to the bedroom tax accelerates, as access to justice is restricted, as workers rights and pay are restricted (the latest being the assault by Molson on employee pay and terms and conditions, close on the heels of the Green led Brighton council slashing the wages of its poorest workers), as Osbolleaux closes his eyes to economic devastation and ignores IMF blunt speaking about the need for reflation -

and while even the fluffy one seems to have had an outbreak of rationality -

why are there no UK politics threads?


Are we intimidated by kneejerk reactionaries, are we simply dispirited by intransigent and wilful stupidity and ignorance?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Musket sans truth
Date: 27 May 13 - 07:09 AM

Look on the bright side. The more injustice around the more rich pickings for provincial solicitors.

The FTSE is up. Growth is up. Government debt is slowly being addressed.

Didn't vote for either of the buggers and some policies around health education and justice stagger belief but not quite sure that Balls would have the economy any better and Irritable Duncan Syndrome's welfare reforms are no different to what Labour were suggesting in their manifesto.

You vote. You get the government.

The alternative? Bridge wearing a beret and shouting power to the people! Snag is, when he says he represents them, he is referring to his hourly rate.

Think I'll get back to my pint and earnest discussion of the Headingly test match.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 May 13 - 07:25 AM

What a stupid, personal and insulting response to a perfectly reasonable thread topic.

One of the reasons why posting these topics and responding is so little pursued. Why make it personal? Why not reply in a reasoned and logical manner, respecting the opinions of the OP - even if you disagree?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 07:46 AM

Oh, Mither and I make it a point of principle not to agree - but he has just decreased his credibility by a large margin. And I suppose I should not say "Principle" as he has no principles and does not understand the word (at least, as the evidence runs).

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 13 - 08:50 AM

"why are there no UK politics threads?"

Likewise where are the protest singers and songs? Who is the Billy Brag for the 2010s? No doubt there may well be some out there but not as high profile as you'd maybe expect.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:12 AM

Who is the Billy Brag for the 2010s?

Errrrr, Billy Bragg?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:35 AM

Reality is beginning to set in.

We are starting to understand that we are not going to make all the poor folks rich under this system and equality is only a word under this system and democracy does not exist...just like god.

But we are too afraid to do anything about it, lest we lose the tiny amount we have been allow to keep by our masters.

All the "liberal" policies which were the hope of the capitalist left have turned and bitten us on the arse.....there is nothing left to fix, unless you think fucking up the social system like we did the economic one is beneficial?

Nobody wants to talk about politics any more the left has failed to convince the people, from now on the road is going to get harder, rockier and steeper. Phoney human rights are down the tube, its every man for himself in this world of entitlement you have created.
Sink or swim...eh?

Billy Bragg....for fuck sake .....call him a socialist?
He's just another fucking "liberal"

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:51 AM

What a stupid take on a reasonable response to Bridge and his periodic rants.

Thought you were better than that Mr Fly.

Anyway, we should have made them follow on. Good maiden century mind, looks promising for the future.

Politics? Once armchair socialists stop confusing social justice with wistful nostalgia for a state that never existed, I might be interested in earnest debate. Till then, I shall accept that Bridge is looking far and wide for people who share his pessimism. S pity really because get him off his soap box and he can be an enjoyable debater.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 11:20 AM

Life, Mither, is not a debate.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 27 May 13 - 11:24 AM

Richard asks:

"Are we intimidated by kneejerk reactionaries, are we simply dispirited by intransigent and wilful stupidity and ignorance?"

Naw....there's a much simpler reason. We're bored with it.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:01 PM

All the "liberal" policies which were the hope of the capitalist left have turned and bitten us on the arse.....there is nothing left to fix, unless you think fucking up the social system like we did the economic one is beneficial?

Watching the UK unravel is a painful thing to watch. It has its mirror activity in the US, on many levels. What Reagan and Thatcher started, the GOP over here and whoever is in power over there seem determined to finish. The end result they seek is an uneducated large lower and middle class who will continue to be swayed by slick campaigns to vote them into office and allow them to fill their pocketbooks with the proceeds of dismantling the social welfare system and the higher profits of companies because of lower wages and no benefits.

The US passed "health care reform" but you don't notice the insurance companies being forced out of the picture - they're in it to get as much profit as possible. That's because there would have been no "reform" of any sort of the GOP stockholders couldn't keep getting richer. And why no negotiations on the prices of drugs and services for many of our government health care service providers? Because the stakeholders in Congress (or their financial backers) still want to keep earning hefty profits and they aren't as hefty if the government can force reasonable charges for essential drugs and services.

It all starts with needing an informed public heading to the polls. But the schools have been gutted by legislators dictating the curriculum and textbooks - what a viscous circle.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:15 PM

The so called "bedroom tax" is not a tax at all, but merely an increase in (heavily subsidised) rent, which is charged for under-use of Council properties - quite reasonable it would seem to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,musket without sans
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:29 PM

So why the debate? If life isn't a debate what is it?

At the end of the day all you are doing is debating. The only way to change anything is by exercising your vote. A right wing devil take the hindmost government or a business friendly with obligatory flat cap.

Take yer choice.

In the meantime don't get excited over Will Fly defending you. He called your op reasonable for crying out loud. Dunno if he actually read it. ..

In defence of your thread all the same, I would say that with the Tories forming a circular firing squad and Labour wondering how to attract UKIP votes themselves rather than showing some statesmanship for once. ..

Did you know, 4000 votes nationally could swing a government in and 3000000 young voters don't know the core values of either party?

Like I said. Vote and enjoy the government. At least they argue over the least incompetent way of delivering social programmes which is slightly better than debating whether we have them or not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 May 13 - 01:13 PM

"The only way to change anything is by exercising your vote."

Trouble is that in many elections only about 25% of the electorate bother to vote - and I'm convinced that many of them vote on 'tribal' lines rather than policy ones.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 02:14 PM

No. The current government has no intention of delivering any social programmes and is concerned only to eviscerate them for profit, nor any intention of general economic growth, only to enrich the rich. Enough is enough. It was enough long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 May 13 - 02:28 PM

If you are happy believing that then feel free to wallow in your negativity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:03 PM

How could there be any positive about conservatives? The country needs to be rid of them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:30 PM

No Richard, Bonzo is right.
The Tories are doing all they can to keep the system alive, that means queezing the less well off and the underclass while handing out sweeties to the "captains of finance".....That is their purpose and they are serving it.

Labour's purpose is to protect public services and spread what is available in the economy over a wider base.
They fail miserably!.....They dont even try, when in power they adopt the policies required to keep themselves in power....They give us war and unregulated capitalism then pretend we are a liberal democracy.
They court the same capitalist media as the Conservatives....when was the last time you heard a Labour politician utter the word Socialism, other than as a term of derision?

All the issues that motivate the public are social issues....most people are heartily sick of politics and lying politicians.
How can you fail to recognise the rise of mr Farage's party....how do you explain it?   idiots? swivel eyed loonies? bigotted racists?
No just ordinary folk who know they are being fucked by the major parties and dont like how it feels

In todays papers financial commentators are softening us up they are admitting that the "good times" are gone for ever.

Some of us knew that the "good times" were a mirage....monopoly money; working in the building trade I could see what was happening more plainly than most.
It was the last throw of the dice.

Give it another three years and it will be obvious how ineffective the human rights act will have become.

Survival will be all that matters.....Marx was right!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:04 PM

Nice to see, Ake, that you do indeed recognise UKIP. But nothing you have said rebuts my view of conservatives. Rather, you support it and then go on to say that Labour are just the same.

As usual you do not say what you want to see happen, and why it is good.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:14 PM

""Are we intimidated by kneejerk reactionaries, are we simply dispirited by intransigent and wilful stupidity and ignorance?""

Perhaps some of us are simply sick to bloody death of being treated as subhuman for exercising our free choice as to who we elect to govern the country (or more accurately, disagreeing with the great God Bridge).

Frankly you are easier to ignore than to talk to. You have no respect for us so with all due respect, fuck off and talk to yourself.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:35 PM

"No. The current government has no intention of delivering any social programmes and is concerned only to eviscerate them for profit, nor any intention of general economic growth, only to enrich the rich. Enough is enough. It was enough long ago."

I agree with every word of that, Richard. We vote 'em in, they devote all of their efforts to helping the filthy richer get richer at the expense of the rest of us and the environment. Trouble is the Labour Party is not much better.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:18 PM

Don, you are an idiot.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/27/public-money-covering-shortfall-private-finance-projects

Privatise the profit, nationalise the risk. Just one of many examples.

Yes, if you choose to prefer profit to welfare, then you are subhuman.

It is time you learned principle, but you are too busy tugging your forelock to capital to realise it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:46 PM

parliament is a bit like mudcat - more interested in scoring points off each other than discussing the problems.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:52 PM

I offered. Your point, Xtofascist?

Meanwhile, the war on the poor continues: =


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10083049/Iain-Duncan-Smith-cut-welfare-to-fund-police-and-Forces.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:54 PM

Privatise the profit, nationalise the risk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/27/public-money-covering-shortfall-private-finance-projects

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:56 PM

And the corrupt revolving door continues

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/may/27/deloitte-appoints-dave-hartnett-tax

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:02 PM

Black Horse, Black Rider


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:04 PM

Death

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/linda-wootton-double-heart-lung-1912498

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:22 PM

"which is charged for under-use of Council properties - quite reasonable it would seem to me."

It is a bit of an attack on families as far a I can see. A single person in a three bedroom house gets no cut in benefit if they are 62 years old or older - but a family in a three bedroom house (with for instance 9 and 10 year old kids in seperate rooms) gets their benefit reduced).

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:18 PM

Allan. Most of us recognise the distasteful "principle of less eligibility" when we see it, so while I agree with your condemnation of the spare bedroom tax I don't find it necessary to do so from the angle that you do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:21 PM

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2013/05/27/dwps-own-research-sanctions-damaging-counterproductive-so-it-does-more/

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:22 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/benefits-crackdown-humiliates-disabled-army-war-veterans-8633610.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:25 PM

A comment on a bloke on another forum

"The three main political parties are now no more than, to quote George Galloway, three cheeks of the same backside (and very ugly it is too). And don't get me started on UKIP, who are little more than the BNP in smart suits."

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 28 May 13 - 01:23 AM

One of the problems here (and we have at least three examples above) is that even if you dare to agree with something Bridge states (under the infinite monkeys with typewriters rule) he is liable to admonish you for it.

It would seem that reading too many newspaper websites is harmful to your karma. ..

I never thought one nation tories could be so cynical.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 May 13 - 02:04 AM

Fair dos Richard I take your point. If it looked like I only disagreed with it because it didn't affect older people then I didn't mean it to do so. It is an attack on the poor in general but I was pointing out that it is in particular an attack on poor families.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:05 AM

Well if Mr Bridge has nothing better to do.......

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:06 AM

Some things NEVER change - To quote from a VERY old Monologue :-

'Its because of this 'ere Magna Carta ,
As was signed by the barons of old
That in England today you can say what you like
As long as you do what you're told

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:55 AM

Well, Bozo, at least I'm not a traitor propping up the Argentinian economy at every opportunity. Must dash, lots of work to do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 May 13 - 04:33 AM

I gather from the news yesterday that they are planning to undo the bit of Magna Carta about not selling justice with the suggestion of privatising the law courts. Is this possible? I thought it was a purview of the Crown.

In the case of Stobart v Little person who dared to carry their own goods, both the prosecution and defence are provided by Stobart?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:04 AM

Methinks I spy a misquote ; "Swivel-eyed Loonies " was , I believe , actually rendered as " Swivel-eyed Loons " . The use of this latter word was common in the reign of King Charles The First , who often resorted to it when comparing people to the eponymous Scottish bird , rather than Lunar disorientation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:15 AM

I have it vaguely in mind that loons (the bird) have a strange mating dance leading to the association of the bird with madness. Perhaps an ornithologist would like to add to this, or to correct it.

Meanwhile, the war on the poor continues -

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/onethird-of-britons-are-too-poor-to-join-in-with-society-8633584.html?fb_action_i


And meanwhile the truth about the alleged "recovery" - showing very clearly that Osbornomics isn't working - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/revealed-the-true-size-of-the-british-jobs-gap-8633691.html?fb_action_ids=101516

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Green Man
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:23 AM

It does not matter how you vote, the elected officials behave in the same way as our cat. One word from me and she did whatever she liked.

Elect an MP based on what he says to you, then, when he gets to parliament he votes as he is told to by the party. Pretty pointless isn't it.

Represent our interests? well all the evidence points otherwise.

I thought the purpose of the government was to care for the populace. Obviously I was misinformed.

Anyone who studies 'politics' is suspect. Anyone who wants power should be denied power.

Give the job to someone who doesn't want it. Oh and while we are at it convert one of the empty tower blocks into flats and give them to MP's who need a home in London. Make sure they pay for it too.

Take the cheats who steal our money and put them in jail. Embezzlement and fraud are still crimes aren't they?

As my dad used to say, Most of these folk are a waste of a skin. (meaning politicians in general.)

Have a nice day now....

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 13 - 08:13 AM

Hi Bubbly...the point about loons had crossed my mind, but i dismissed it on account of their not being any more swivel eyed than your average mudcatter......especially UK mudcatters.....especially especially "liberal" UK mudcatters!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 13 - 08:35 AM

"liberal"

This is just the wrong word ake. Surely you mean left of centre?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 28 May 13 - 11:34 AM

No he doesn't. Trust me....

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 13 - 01:13 PM

They're a bloody menace tae society.....so they ur! The trouble wi' "left of centre" is, you never know where the effin' centre is situated.

"liberals" is what they are and they are the problem. however thankfully,their time will not be long.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 02:45 PM

Liars and cheats in government http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/05/28/dwp-hides-behind-disability-charities-in-fake-youtube-campaign/


Hard-to-refute evidence that Irritable Duncan Syndrome's purpose is to harm not help claimants - http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2013/05/28/why-did-the-dwp-push-ahead-with-illegal-sanctions-knowing-they-dont-do-any-good/


Even the justice system is for sale - http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3776508.ece



Will no-one rid us of these arrogant posh boys?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:02 PM

Get your referendum out of the way and we might be rid of doom and gloom haggis boys. . Snag is, the poor Scottish people get to keep you.

Oy... Irritable Duncan Syndrome was penned by a left wing comic who would be bemused by it being used by the likes of you.

Back to Bridge's op. Im far better at making snide comments and jumping down throats than sensible debate so if anybody wants to say what could replace democracy and western style government please say so. The sarcastic streak in me needs a good airing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:27 PM

Interesting how some who label themselves Labour or socialist get REALLY concerned about what is good for business when they make some money. And then even get that wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:36 PM

""Don, you are an idiot.""

Fun dishing it out, but being on the receiving end ain't so f**king nice is it?

So when the next election arrives, who will you vote for?

The genuine unabashed Conservatives, or the Conservatives who lie to you and claim to be socialist?

You are a complete political know nothing, if you think you will get any different treatment from Millipede and Co.

Which leaves you where exactly, you clown?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:09 PM

Nice to see a thread where all the usual suspects are at each others throats again..its been peacefull here for too long ... cant wait or the rest of the gang to turn up and up the ante on "political" entertainment.

BTW i used to be a proffessional wrestling fan and didnt believe it was fixed till i saw " choreographer" in the credits

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 10:27 PM

Don, I'd say "Stop and think" if I thought you ever did. I'll vote for whoever to the left of the conservatives has the best chance of keeping those arrogant posh boys out. Such a party could not be worse, and might be better.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 29 May 13 - 01:19 AM

Serious question Bridge.

If arrogant posh boys stood on a platform for social justice and redistribution of wealth, or at least offered a more positive package than business friendly star struck whippet walkers, would you vote for them?

You word your posts in such a way that you seem more interested in their personality than their policies.

If you are so preconceived in your opinions why do you bother trawling newspaper sites to justify your thoughts? That's what I find fascinating about people such as yourself. Clever educated people who get out of bed each morning, rub their eyes and fit their blinkers.   Your passion for blaming everyone in site on behalf of those less fortunate than you is matched only by your shocking naivety.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 13 - 03:19 AM

Will no-one rid us of these arrogant posh boys?

Hopefully they will, and soon. Close the door as you leave please.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: banjoman
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:35 AM

Not often I agree with you Richard -but this time you have hit the nail on the head.
Heard yesterday a rumour that there is a propsal about to limit the number of time patients can see their Gp before being charged.
Well that takes care of most of my DLA and pension (and my wife's) .
What is this country comming to.
George Osborne says that several depts have "agreed" to further cuts. Belive that if you want to. Further cuts are about to be impsed on Cultural activiries, Education to mame tust two

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:00 AM

""Such a party could not be worse, and might be better.""

Take off the blinkers for Christ's sake.

That party had thirteen years to do better and it started those years with full coffers and no debt.

What did it do?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Musket sans truth
Date: 29 May 13 - 07:43 AM

A think tank of the conservative party have looked at rationing of GP visits. Just as they do every year and just as every year it is rejected by those charged with offering vote winning policies.

Think tanks of all parties suggest radical solutions on an ongoing basis. Newspapers using them to scare people doesn't help. The main issue for The NHS isn't dismantling on ideological grounds but running up national debt to the extent services cannot be safely provided due to lack of funding. Savings within healthcare have already reached the point where staffing and efficient management are compromised in some areas, as regulators report.

But paying for access or restricting it has never been a manifesto promise of any party. Although. .. Labour under Blair did look at it as part of The NHS plan in 2000, and rejected iit on public health cost grounds. Ultimately it costs more when people present with a small problem that has been allowed to get worse.

More people seeing their GP is ultimately cheaper than less.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 13 - 12:49 PM

Don That party had thirteen years to do better

Harold Wilson Thirteen Years of Tory Misrule

Do I see things going round in circles here? :-)

People have short memories when it comes to voting for whoever they believe will give them the best deals. All the parties learn by their past mistakes. But they only learn to promise different things, not to actually do them!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:33 PM

""Harold Wilson Thirteen Years of Tory Misrule""

And given that he was the biggest crook unhung, we know just how much value to place on his utterances.

Especially since that thirteen years took this country from breadline poverty and rationing to possibly the most prosperous period since the 1920s.

But dear old Harold soon changed that, culminating of course in the ludicrous statement on devaluation of the pound ""The pound in your pocket is worth the same as it always was"".

This was true of the pound in your pocket, but when you took it out of your pocket and bought anything.............

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:35 PM

Mind you Dave, I'm glad you brought Harold into the conversation.

I needed a bloody good laugh!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 May 13 - 07:19 PM

Don: I hate the arrogant posh boys because of what they do. They do those things because they are arrogant posh boys. The idea that they would actually distribute wealth from the rich to the poor is about as stupid as even you get, Mither.

They serve money, not the welfare of the people.

You, Don, seem to base yourself on the same point - but overlook that even the IMF, the arch-capitalists, pour scorn on Osbornomics.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Musket sans truth
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:13 AM

And what background do you need to have in order to distribute wealth?

No knowledge or experience of wealth perhaps? Your arrogant posh boys. Let's see now. Cameron? Osborne? Tony Benn? Does your background dictate your philosophy after all?

I'd call you chippy but someone who advertises the use of IT in keeping their business overheads down rather than employing people has a weird take on social justice if you ask me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:51 AM

And I hate the arrogant working class inverted snobs as you well know.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:56 AM

http://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2013/05/30/the-uk-government-is-on-the-wrong-side-of-human-rights/

Note, the conclusion she cites is from a parliamentary committee.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 May 13 - 01:34 PM

Human rights do have to go, then perhaps we can get rid of the hideous criminal element who remain here for very feeble reasons indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 10:58 AM

""Don: I hate the arrogant posh boys because of what they do. They do those things because they are arrogant posh boys. The idea that they would actually distribute wealth from the rich to the poor is about as stupid as even you get, Mither.""

Don't worry Richard, you won't need to pay the "bedroom tax" after you roll your trouser leg up for the posh boys next Tuesday evening.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 11:10 AM

Definitions:-

Rich - Well supplied with the good things of life. Never having to wonder where the next meal is coming from (Fortnum & Mason, Harrods, definitely not Tesco Value).

Rich Bridge - A moderately useful erection stuck forever between two banks.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 02:02 PM

For poor in the UK - think at least £500 per week in benefits, and a council house provided at subsidised rent.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 08:07 PM

""For poor in the UK - think at least £500 per week in benefits, and a council house provided at subsidised rent.""

I don't take Richard Bridge's champagne socialist crap at face value Bonzo, so don't expect me to go along with your fatuous nonsense about benefits.

I get a state pension I've paid for all my life (of which I spent 45 years working bloody hard). My wife gets two thirds of a state pension because she took time out of the work force to bring up our children herself.

The council tax and housing benefit we get doesn't cover the shortfall in her pension.

We each have a minute company pittance (thanks to the ""prudent"" Gordon Brown's pension raid, which brings our household income to £15000 per annum, which is £288.46 per week, of which rent and council tax account for £95.07, leaving £193.39 to cover all other expenses.

So your estimate of £500 + house is complete and utter bollocks.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 08:24 PM

Cut and paste; the true path.

Usual crap from the usual suspects, armchair socialists with their self rightouse rants.

Get of your smug arses and do some thing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:41 AM

Don. I didn't bring up the Harold Wilson quote out of any respect for the man. I am glad you found it amusing and I agree with you about him but I think you missed the point. You commented that 'that' party had 13 years to do better. Echoing the infamous ex-PS's quote in the early 60's. You believe one thing, someone else believes another. The thing is probably neither of you are right.

All political parties share one thing in common. They desire power. To my mind that is their over-riding ambition. They will say anything to gain that power and then do anything to avoid having to fulfill those promises. They all sicken me in varying degrees but, sadly, it is all we have and I have neither the intellect or power to provide an alternative. I used to effectively always spoil my vote by putting my 'X' next to Green or independent but in Salford it made no difference. Fortunately where I am now we do have an genuine independent at local council level who was returned in our ward last month.

Cheers


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 05:12 AM

"So your estimate of £500 + house is complete and utter bollocks."

As per my experience you are absolutely spot on Don. I've seen both sides. Came from a poor "but working" family then found myself as an adult being relatively well off. However I worked in financial services (for the co-op insurance) on a home service basis with many less well off clients and I don't recognise the idea that they are all in the lap of luxury. In my experience most truly had to juggle from one week to the next.

Likewise on a personal level during the initial part of the credit crunch (I am a mortgage broker in partnership with my wife) our personal income went through the floor for several years. Mine at the worst point was just £2500 and my wife's was only slightly higher. The only income we had was child benefit which amounts to £33.70 per week as we have two kids and thankfully we qualified for both chid tax credit and working tax credit which was at its highest point came to about £700 per month. We were very pleased with that bit in truth it still wouldn't have kept us afloat. The bank of Mum and Dad did. Thankfully we got through it, business has partly recovered and we diversified elsewhere but had it not been for help from the oldies we'd have lost everything.

We tried to claim for the reduction in council tax and quite frankly it was a nightmare. It took ages as they went through every minute detail of your income, savings etc. After months we finally did get it but then the following year as our position was improving they claimed it all back in one fell swoop. Quite honestly it would have been easier just to not get it in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 05:21 AM

""You commented that 'that' party had 13 years to do better.""

One can only report what one lives through Dave, and I can assure you that there is a major difference in the direction taken during those two thirteen year periods.

In 1951, we were still suffering from the effects of WW2. Most basic commodities were still rationed and there was little money. Between then and 1964, there was a constant improvement in our living standards and a climb into a level of prosperity this country hadn't seen since the twenties, and hasn't seen since.

Looking back, Harold MacMillan was right when he said "You've never had it so good".

Between 1964 and 1979 the Labour Party and the trades unions managed to put us right back where we started with industry destroyed by strikes for insupportable pay rises, runaway inflation and sky high interest rates. This isn't conjecture or bias, it is public record which anybody can check in minutes!

In 1997 New Labour took over, as government, a country with inflation at 2.5% and coffers well stocked. Thirteen years later, they walked out on the possibility of a coalition, leaving the Tory/LibDem coalition to collect all the opprobium for the hardships of recovery.

Like it or not, there is no up side to Labour's record since 1951.

The Tories ain't perfect God knows, but they start every term handicapped by Labour's screw ups.

At least they try to do something, rather than shit slinging from the sidelines.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 09:39 AM

No, I fully understand that, Don. I repeat - I was simply commenting on the irony of two people who are so different saying the same thing so many years apart. I don't know how to put it any differently, if you still think I am commenting on which party is better or worse I give up!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 02:53 PM

No No! I understand Dave, and I thank you for being, so far, one of the very few who do not categorise me as either idiot or subhuman.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 04:34 PM

"which is charged for under-use of Council properties - quite reasonable it would seem to me."

So if a child dies the rent goes up. Fair enough, I suppose - after all you don't have to pay for a dead child's food, bonzo...

Of course if the family can't pay the extra and has to give up a council tenancy and is put up in emergency private accommodation it costs the council a lot more, but the economics of the madhouse appear to make sense to the likes of bonzo.

The interesting thing is that in our present situation the only genuine conservatives are on the left, opposing changes which threaten to make things even worse, and longing for a return to a time when so many things really were a lot better. The people called Cnservatives are hell bent on a whole raft of ideologically led destructive changes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 05:28 PM

No need for thanks, Don. No-one's beliefs in either politics. religion or anything else would prevent me from respecting them as people. I have good friends who are white, black, brown, Christian, Moslem, Atheist, Communist, Liberal and even Conservative :-) The only exception would be a belief in anything that makes them hate other people.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 07:43 PM

"The only exception would be a belief in anything that makes them hate other people."

Which would apply to a proportion of people whose views would be described as falling into all those categories. And not to others whose views would be similarly labelled.

That's the trouble with labels.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 08:10 PM

Well, Don, a few statistics for you. During Thatcher's reign, unemployment rapidly more than doubled compared with Callaghan's final year, and was never less than half a million more than Labour's previous worst (remember that '79 election poster, the one with the dole queue, anyone?). The Bank Of England base rate soared far higher than under Labour and was rarely below 10%. Inflation was not often under 5% and was well over 10% at the end of her rule. House prices more than trebled during that ten years, with a huge spike after "the Big Bang" (anyone remember those mass repossessions and rampant negative equity after it all went wrong?). It's also worth recalling that the deregulation of the banks and the City that led to where we are today started enthusiastically on her watch (shamefully, not reversed by New Labour, of course, which is why Ed can't say much).

Just thought I'd mention it.

I'd also like to add that Harold, for all his shortcomings, kept us out of the Vietnam war, in spite of vicious yankee pressure. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but you do have to ask yourself what a prolonged engagement in that war would have cost us, especially when you consider that our signing up might well have led to the conflict lasting years, or decades, longer than it did. The Cold War lasted until 1989, after all.

As for families getting five hundred quid a week in benefits, any family getting that is getting it because they pay a huge rent to a private-sector landlord. The latter are unregulated and they almost always whack up the rent until the pips squeak every time there is a benefits increase. Your precious benefits dough is going straight into the hands of little Rachmans. And the majority of families receiving those benefits are in work, not skiving. Inconvenient but true.

As for the bedroom tax, well I bought my own house. For many years, until it was stopped, I received tax rebates on my mortgage payments. I bought my first house in 1978 and by the time I sold it in 1986 I got four times as much for it as I'd paid for it. The house I bought in 1986 was worth four times as much as I paid for it by 1996. I benefited in later years from a ludicrously low base rate, I've now paid off my mortgage and the house is mine. My two kids left home years ago so we are now a couple living in a four-bed house that is worth hundreds of thousands and which was painless to buy. No-one has come knocking on my door for extra tax as a result of our three empty bedrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 08:37 PM

The clampdown on Housing Benefit and tye bedroom tax doesn't just affect people who are out of work, it hits many many people earning minimal wages,

Two of the hardest working people, and probably the most honest and generous, are dependent on Housing Benefit to enable them to live in a modest flatt. Now the landlord has slapped another £10 a week on their rent. But the previous rent was at the maximum level payable by the Council under government restrictions. So they have to find the extra money, or find another place at the lower rent - which is virtually impossible locally.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 05:16 AM

Old Harold also set up Open University. The cultural shift in higher education was wonderful. Until Tory Blair woke up one morning and thought that as more people with degrees find work than those without degrees, let's make everybody go for a degree and unemployment will plummet!

So in the meantime when I was interviewing for service engineers, young graduates with no apprenticeship thought they had the edge because they knew torque settings for bolts whilst the time served apprentices knew how to use a spanner.

Our service team seemed to be getting older. .....

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 10:39 AM

So did the apprentices get the jobs?

The idea that getting a degree was about getting a job was something tat never even ntered into my head when I went to unversity. Yes there were certain courses that would equip you for certain jobs, like medical degrees, or some science degrees, but for most degrees and most courses it just wasn't particularly relevant.

As soon as enough people get degrees any career advantage arising from a degree as such just evaporates. People end up in the same kind of jobs they'd have got before the expansion of degrees, but with a massive debt round their neck. And people who haven't got degrees get penalised and excluded. Everybody is worse off.

Going to university is worth doing if it's a way to stretch yourself and find out what you want to do in life, and for many people it's the best way to achieve that. But the idea that it's a meal ticket for a privileged life is just a con trick.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM

""As for families getting five hundred quid a week in benefits, any family getting that is getting it because they pay a huge rent to a private-sector landlord.""

If you were paying attention Steve, you would know that I was also disputing that nonsensical claim of £500 + a house.

Firstly, the twerp who posted that crap (Bonzo3braincells) made it clear that he was talking about ""a council house provided at subsidised rent.""

Secondly, I spoke specifically about what I know, my own situation.

Bonzo, bless his uncaring little heart has as much idea about how poor people are getting by as an amoeba.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: GUEST,Musket sans equal opportunities
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 04:38 PM

Most time served engineers with HND or equivalent were more advanced in years so the trade off between eager younger reps who were happy with lots of calls per day against those who may get around less but could generally resolve issues better once they got there.

My concern was that the paper based degree system was not a real substitute for a more practical attributes but the latter were becoming less common.

I sold my shares and got out over ten years ago, so not up to date, but it was always an issue.

Mind you, manufacturing industry is more specialist and less common place these days.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:36 AM

""Well, Don, a few statistics for you. During Thatcher's reign, unemployment rapidly more than doubled compared with Callaghan's final year, and was never less than half a million more than Labour's previous worst (remember that '79 election poster, the one with the dole queue, anyone?). The Bank Of England base rate soared far higher than under Labour and was rarely below 10%.""

Check again mate! The following from the Trading Economics site, regarding interest rate:

""United Kingdom Interest Rate
The benchmark interest rate in the United Kingdom was last recorded at 0.50 percent. Interest Rate in the United Kingdom is reported by the Bank of England. Historically, from 1971 until 2013, the United Kingdom Interest Rate averaged 8.22 Percent reaching an all time high of 17 Percent in November of 1979""

Inflation rates (from the Historical UK inflation website) as follows:
1996         2.4%        
1995         3.5%        
1994         2.4%        
1993         1.6%        
1992         3.7%        
1991         5.9%        
1990         9.5%        
1989         7.8%        
1988         4.9%        
1987          4.2%        
1986         3.4%        
1985         6.1%        
1984         5.0%        
1983          4.6%        
1982         8.6%        
1981        11.9%        
1980         18.0%        
1979        13.4%        
1978         8.3%        
1977        15.8%        
1976        16.5%        
1975        24.2%        
1974        16.0%        
1973         9.2%

I'm afraid your statement is the reverse of the truth. In 1979 and 1980, inflation continued (as one would expect) to rise. That was an inevitable consequence of the Callaghan government's ineptitude. In 1981, the new government had reduced it to 11.9%, and it never again reached 10%, falling to 2.4% in 1997 when New Labour took over.        

The 1979 election is, to date, the only general election in modern electoral history (since 1950) to have been triggered by a vote of no confidence in the government.

Not blinkered bias, just plain straightforward historical record, easily available to those who are not trying to avoid the truth.

The rise in unemployment was also inevitable and would have happened during the Wilson/Callaghan years had either of them had the guts to take on the Unions who were killing the manufacturing industries with ludicrous wage demands and job demarkation disputes, and wouldn't allow any dismissals of members, even for gross incompetence or dishonesty.

Don T.