BS: Obesity a disease? Really??

Subject: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 02:17 PM

Here goes:

LA Times Story Here

OK - I understand that obesity is going to be called a disease so that more insurance money can be used to fight the problem. But let's call it what it is - not a disease but mental disorder. It's not rocket science - if you WANT to lose weight it involves fewer calories in and more calories going out. But as it stands now we want to spend more time with Ben and Jerry than Gym.

There are those unlucky few that can trace their excessive weight to a medical problem. But those people are very few. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the rest of us. I know all the excuses. I've used all of them too. I'm too busy to work out, I don't get any support from the rest of the family, I just can't help myself, ect.

It's a lifestyle choice pure and simple. And my concern is that if we call this thing a disease it just enables us to go on practicing denial. Better food choices, portion control, more activity - and most importantly - a true desire to change is what we need. Not Oreos and french fries. Until then we're just going to be a nation of fat people.

Rant over.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 02:38 PM

Medicalizing it is better than criminalizing it, at least. Saying it's a disease doesn't say it isn't mental.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 02:47 PM

"It's a lifestyle choice pure and simple."

Oh dear. Got yer flak jacket on?

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 03:01 PM

I think for a lot of people, gaining weight can come on them unexpectedly when busy with other things, like working long hours at a sedentary job and having little energy left for whipping up healthy meals. Or maybe there were stresses like bereavements, divorce or illnesses which led to depression and consequent poor choices and the weight creeping up. Medication can have an impact too - mine does. Poverty, yes poverty, is a big factor, it's considerably more expensive to eat ready-made shite than buy fresh fruit and vegetables. Once it's there, for whatever reason, it is tough to shift it unless you are seriously committed to some big lifestyle overhalls and not everyone is in a position to make those changes easily, other things get in the way, like reduced mobility, long sedentary hours at work, hormonal changes like the menopause. I guess all I'm getting at is that it's neither a disease, nor a lifestyle choice. Numerous factors are involved and for each person, it's going to be slightly different.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 03:43 PM

Because of the complexity of obesity, I'd call it a 'syndrome'. And I'm sure psychological factors have a large part to play. After all, very few people want to remain 'obese', but (as has been said) they just can't make the necessary changes. I do blame the food manufacturers who promote and aggressively advertise sweets, burgers, pizzas, chips, KFC and many other unsuitable foods. And as most people in a household work all day there's no-one to cook a good meal for the evening, so fast, junk food is such an easy option when you're dog-tired and the family is hungry. So I think stress, sedentary lifestyle, availability of 'bad' ready meals and fast food, and the pace of working life are mostly to blame. I'm overweight myself, and can hardly contemplate changing my eating habits, so I do understand how hard it is for others. Even when you're told you're putting your life at risk, it doesn't seem to scare you into doing something about it!

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 03:49 PM

I know a woman in her 40s who is morbidly obese. It started early with a nasty divorce between her parents. One thing after another and I won't get into all of those. Food was the only drug she had and that drug was a dog chasing it's tail. The depressionsss fueled that drug. She is on social assistance and happy pills. Very sad that she does not get or even have the ability to get proper treatment for her "choice of lifestyle".

Don't get me wrong, Wesley... I mean only to offer you ONE opinion for consideartion.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 03:49 PM

many people have the gene just like people with alcohol problems. There are diseases such as Huntington's that is gene related also .. that doesn't make it any less of a medical situation that needs help. Call it whatever you want but people who need help need help and that is the problem with no universal health coverage.   It is like insurance not covering birth control pills but will pay forever for a child that is born. people who need help need help and am far from obese by any measure and stay in shape, but that doesn't mean everyone can for a host of reasons. It is not "they just like to eat" it has a lot to do with gene's I think. My daughters, my family can eat like an anaconda and not gain an ounce. Some people walk by a burger and gain two lbs. It is a problem for many and help should be there

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 03:55 PM

From my perspective: It concerns me that I keep packing on the pounds. I know that many facets of my life would improve if I took them off, from weight-bearing joints to lungs to walking strides. Two problems: I love to eat and I don't know if it is worth it to me - at my age and stage of life - to deprive myself of that pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 04:04 PM

I've learned over my long life not to criticise and condemn people when we don't fully understand their problems, especially if/when addiction is implicated. It's very ignorant IMO to merely say, "They choose to be like that so they should jolly well get a grip and stop!" Presumably the poor souls would stop tomorrow morning if only they could. I've worked with heroin addicts and alcoholics, and it was patently obvious that there was a lot more going on in their heads than mere self-gratification. And you're right olddude, people's metabolism varies and changes as they age. I used to be so thin all through my younger days, skeletal in fact, that doctors were convinced I had TB or some other terrible disease! Now, well, I look like Nellie the Elephant frankly, and this began when I hit 45 yrs old. As for insurance, thin folk can get ill too, and as long as one hasn't developed heart problems, diabetes, cardio-vascular disease etc, you're as good a 'risk' as anyone else IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: LilyFestre
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 04:13 PM

Why shouldn't an obese person be able to get help to lose weight and to have it be covered by insurance? Hmm?

Michelle who has been a size 16 and up since she was 12 years old.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 04:23 PM

I have been obese - not morbidly but enough - for at least 5 years. I was overweight back then but at least I could jog and work out enough. I started to pile on the weight - about 30lbs and couldn't loose it no matter what. I could no longer work out - I didn't have the energy and the only thing that helped my fatigue was sugary foods and alcohol! I assumed diabetes but when I got checked out, back in February, a low hemoglobin count showed up. I was dangerously deficient in Iron. Since I have been on Iron tablets - about 2 months now - I can easily walk 5-10 miles, I have lost about 7lbs and only drink at weekends - If I gave that up I would loose wight quicker but be pretty miserable :-) Just so you know it can be a temporary condition as well.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Bert
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 04:44 PM

It often is. It can be caused by thyroid or pituitary problems and I am sure they ,ust be other causes. None of which are lifestyle related.

So why don't you get off your dumb ass and do some research before you post. Ignorance is a life style choice; get educated.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 05:16 PM

I got off my dumb ass and started walking. I've lost 35 pounds this year. So I'll stand by my original comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 05:29 PM

No need to go overboard, Bert. There are a range of reasons people end up very heavy - once you end up there, losing the weight is a lot of work, "life-style choice" or not.

Allowing a medicalization of it (I'm surprised it wasn't already, considering it is an underlying cause of so many other health problems) allows more people access to insurance support of preventative measures and weight loss methods.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 05:34 PM

Kinda complex issue... Some people are obese because they over eat and others because of metabolism...

Either way, the end result is harmful to one's health...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 05:40 PM

two or three times, I've lost up to seventy pounds by dieting. however I always put the weight back on. It wasn't until I reached my late fifties that the heart defect which made me put on weight was diagnosed.

I think you have to struggle with the problem, if you have the weight problem. But if they;d diagnosed it quicker, they could have done more to help me,

Plus I wouldn't have had a lifetime of being regarded as a lazy slob.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 06:11 PM

Just because a thing can be prevented or cured doesn't mean it isn't a disease. Heart DISEASE often has many factors that are within the sufferer's control. Some types of cancer, which includes cervical cancer and HPV. Hepatitis, both viral and toxin-induced. Lots of diseases.

Wesley, I'm happy for you, but something made you gain the weight in the first place, didn't it?

I did notice something when looking for healthy microwavable meals: they seem to substitute a large volume of low calorie vegetables with a small amount of stuff in some sort of tasty sauce. I'm getting to the point where I don't even need salad dressing because it tastes better without. But in this day of fast, convenient everything, it's often easier to nuke a prepared meal than fix your own food. At the very least, you don't have to think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 07:39 PM

"but something made you gain the weight in the first place, didn't it?"

Yes - I tend to be lazy. And I have an addictive personality which I self medicated with food.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 10:33 PM

There is ever increasing research showing that obesity is environmentally induced - TOXINS. Even found in lab animals that the obesity continued unto the 3rd generation. Substances referred to as obesogens (google it) have been identified and isolated for research purposes. Obesity is not a mental problem. It is an environmental problem. I have found that only by serious de-toxing am I able to lose weight.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 12:37 AM

OK..I haven't read all the posts..and probably won't...because the 'problem' might be brought on by several ways...however, that being said, people who are obese, are that way from malnutrition....and their bodies OFTEN, as a result of it, do not process the food well. This too, can be caused by 'receptors'. Certain substances, and behaviors are caused by the 'receptors', which tell the central nervous system that they HAVE to HAVE certain 'bad' ones, that can cause 'addictions' to the wrong foods, which tends to starve, the digestive and metabolic systems, hence malnutrition...when the 'receptors' are 'satisfied' they signal the brain to release dopamine...the 'reward', for appeasing the receptors.
That also goes for various behaviors....even mental and emotional distortions of reality....(including contentiousness).

I'm done.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 12:56 AM

You're right SRS, there are a range of reasons, not all of them are related to lifestyle or diet. Some obese people can not lose weight and just because some ignoramus can lose 35 pounds, it doesn't mean that all other people who are obese are able to do the same.

Wesley S,

Those who can lose weight by diet and exercise are sometimes the ones who gained it through gluttony in the first place, so they perhaps should not gloat over their small success and put down others who are not able to do the same and have often spent a lot more effort and courage in the attempt.

If you can lose weight with a little exercise then you are lucky. Many obese people cannot, most obese people have tried over and over again with exercise and diet without success.

When Lou was dying of non Hodgkins lymphoma, her doctor was treating her (mild) obesity with a starvation diet. Of course it didn't work and she died.

She was not a glutton, it was not her lifestyle that caused her to gain weight, it was a cancerous growth.

You have a right to be proud of your own success, but you can thank whoever you pray to, that those 35 pounds were fat and not cancer cells.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:53 AM

According to my body mass index, calculated from my weight and height, I am obese. I've come to realise that there's nothing wrong with my weight – I'm just too short!

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 04:09 AM

the trouble with the medical profession is that it spent the first two thousand years thinking about humours and the influence of the stars.

It doesn't know all that much. What it does, it does very well. But there are all sorts of gaps in its knowledge. Why some of us are cursed by obesity - whilst others are not is still a strange conundrum.

I will say this. That no one person seems to centralise the knowledge. I have learned about my problem from all sorts of disparate places, and by deduction. Often I am astonished by how little interaction of knowledge exists between the different disciplines of medicine.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 04:17 AM

With reference to obesity *being* a disease, I don't know how many of you have encountered the movement Health at Any Size? The contention is, that while obesity can coexist with certain illnesses like diabetes and heart disease, obesity in and of itself is not a causative factor.

I think there is sense in this thinking. Losing weight in and of itself will not necessarily cure conditions such as heart disease and diabetes - the Atkins diet will make you lose weight but low carb diets that are full of saturated fat, will do nothing to help heart problems, quite the contrary.

I've been mostly vegetarian now for about a year, maybe more - I say mostly because I have sometimes eaten fish during that period. My diet is also low in refined products like sugar and white bread and high in wholefoods like brown rice and pulses. From blood tests, my cholesterol and blood pressure are nada, I've had no indicators suggesting diabetes, in fact I'm in the athlete range for blood pressure, I attribute this entirely to my diet which being primarily vegetable based and high in wholefoods, is of course low in saturated fats and simple sugars.

Up until fairly recently I had asthma and I'd also started exhibiting signs of arthritis, cutting out dairy completely eliminated all joint pain I'd starting experiencing and my asthma completely cleared up too. I've reintroduced dairy subsequently at a low level with no recurrence of joint pain and only minimal signs of asthma compared to previously.

I'm not a fat advocate of any kind, I'd really rather be back to my normal size which is many dress sizes lower than at present! But even so, presently I have no fear for ill health associated to being fat. It's just a drag not fitting any clothes, and feeling hotter under all the layers of insulation!

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 04:21 AM

EDIT: I'd like to retract my comments about diabetes, as it's a complicated illness and barring diet, I'm unsure about the causative factors.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 08:15 AM

Not health at all sizes but "Health at Every Size" - again, I do think this is not an unreasonable assertion. Gaining weight may have happened due to adopting bad habits (for whatever reason), but losing weight is a slow long slog. Even adopting more healthy habits may not be significant enough to actually lose the weight once gained. You really have to slash those calories in order to lose weight. While eating a vegetarian wholefood diet has made no difference to my *weight*, it has made a difference to my *health* - or at least the signifiers of potential ill-health such as cholesterol and blood pressure.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 09:04 AM

there is a world of difference between putting on a few pounds and morbid obesity ( which is a life threatening condition).

Our metabolism has evolved to use the nutrients available and maximize our ability to survive periods of drought & famine. Studies of women who suffered from near starvation during wartime were found to actually alter their metabolic pathways to conserve calories. This change in metabolism continued during their pregnancies and influenced the developing fetus... who then shared the metabolic conservation of calories.

Couple altered metabolisms with major changes in lifestyle and you have the present situation. And many of the most affected are low income folks who have almost no access to affordable, healthy food.

Obesity is a major health issue... but it will not be solved by close minded arguments or by ignoring it. Our founding fathers were products of the Age of Enlightenment and appreciated the need for scientific study and endeaver. Contrast that with today and a growing number of folks who want to return to an ignorant past and fear those who "think outside the box". It's easier to pass judgement than to actually determine what the heck is really going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 09:08 AM

it's just another word for being fat, I'm slighlty fat, but these fat folk that's their fault along with mine

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 09:17 AM

If you get hungry when you do not need food, there is something wrong with you.
That and not bad diet is the cause of some obesity.

I get no pleasure from eating more after I am satisfied.
It is unpleasant.

I would hate to be hungry all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Highlandman
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 10:01 AM

Blind men.
Elephant.
Complex condition, no simple answers.
When you do find an answer for yourself (Wes) of course it looks simple.
But what good does it do to make someone feel weak and selfish if they are conditioned (by habit or by genetics) to react to discomfort by eating?
-Glenn

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 01:07 PM

I'd love to know how many folk here of a larger size attribute their weight to simply eating too much of the wrong stuff. For myself, I know food was not the culprit. Though I've always enjoyed food, I've never been a binge eater, and I've always had a strong interest in wholefoods and healthy cooking. For me it was a combination of factors, medication being one (yes, I was told so by my doctor), a tendon injury which suddenly stopped me exercising (something I did quite a lot of - mainly jogging) and principally self-medication with booze to block our the world (after a bunch of hard stuff happening in my life). I think it's far too easy to smugly blame other people's weight on too many cakes. While it may be a causative factor for some, I doubt it's as simple as that for most of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:47 PM

My old dad used to say, "No-one ever came out fat from Belsen." Not politically correct nowadays, but I do actually believe you can't make
fat out of very little food. Something must have gone in, surplus to requirements, for the body to convert it into fat. I suppose one should adjust the intake to cater for one's age, lifestyle, health and hormone levels etc. I started to go to the gym some years ago, and the young lad who showed me the machines said, "If you do 15 mins (!!!) on this treadmill, you'll use up 50 calories." I thought, "Big deal! One biscuit and it's all on again!" I stopped going and have had a lovely time since then. But I'm far too plump now! (PS My downfall was crumpets, dripping with butter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:51 PM

Can you imagine FatAnonymous, " Hello, I'm Eliza, and I'm a crumpet addict." ?

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: mg
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 04:12 PM

The biggest, most easily solvable at least where some discretionary funds are available, problem is metabolic syndrome/hyperinsulemia/insulin resistance combined with very bad information given to clients by doctors and nutritionists. A totally inexcusable failure to keep up with research, to have an emperical attitude and measure what can be measured inexpensively in a lab. This knowledge combined with compliance to a diet that is logistically difficult but simple to be on if you need to be would probably help (estimated by someone somewhere) at least 80% of overweight people. Weight gain is part of the diabetic process. You might not ever be classified as diabetic, but for many people, the process is there..that is why it is so hard to lose weight with some of the recommended diets...they are bad for you in your condition. A huge amount of public hysteria, often led by "experts" in medicine and nutrition has led people to believe their bones will crack, their kidneys will fail etc. despite all currently measured indices showing improvement for many people.

It is pretty simple. We all had ancestors. We have a specific metabolic blueprint. We may or may not know what it is depending on if we are Norwegian forever in the past, or Nigerian or whatever. Most of us are mixed so we really don't know. That blue print says how many caloric carbs we can metabolize for any given level of stress, pregnancy, exercise etc. Some of us can not metabolize caloric (sugars, starches) carbs in other than very small amounts..mine is close to zero per day...it gets worse as we age and as we defy our basic metabolism with too many carbs. Needless to say many of us did not evolve to eat white bread, noodles, etc.

So there is an insulin response to carbs..too many carbs for that particular individual..and it will vary..what is good for husband might be bad for wife etc....will result in too much insulin being released..then comes the cycle of crazing more carbs to soak up the insulin, releasing more insulin, etc. Insulin is a fat-storing hormone. If you have too much and too little exercise you will store fat.

Indications: overweight of course..but you can be at a good weight and still have it. Chipmunk cheeks. Midsection obesity. High triglycerides. You need to..everyone needs to...get their insulin levels checked...and if you tell your doctor or nurse this and they say do you mean your blood sugar level..they are not whom you should be seeing for advice. No..I mean insulin levels. Then compare it to your blood sugar levels. I think BS to I should be about 10 or so.

Stress will make all this worse.

It is idiotic to say that complex metabolism, probably involving every hormone in the body, is not involved. The body is doing the best it can with too many carbs for current exercise level, stress level etc.

Answer: get insulin level checked. Immediately get rid of all sugary drinks, including most fruit juice. Get rid of all white flour products. You may or may not need to go further in reducing carbs...try to find a medical person who knows what they are talking about. Some people, and I am one, have to have high fat low carb. Everyone is different. Everyone's needs differ. You must must must get help with this and good advice and the courage to ignore bad advice, which is most of what is out there. You can measure everything..some at home. Weight, waist circumference, energy levels etc.

Do not believe people who say it is only calories in and calories out. It probably is true for some people. Anything is true for some people. It is complex metabolism with fairly easy solutions, if you have enough time and money and energy to eat what you need to. It is harder for poor people of course, but there are options..substitute beans and lentils for white flour products. Give up all sodas.

I am only talking about starchy and sugary carbs, especially those that are highly ground and/or processed. High fiber carbs are good..some people can eat a fair amount of fruit and some must not.

Read books by Dr. Robert Thompson, others I can't think of now...Raven?? former head of endocrinology at UCLA I think...

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: breezy
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 04:24 PM

I'm with Wes/

As a PE teacher I have seen how inactivity without reducing calorie in take results in weight gain.

Ignorance and lack of recognition that you are loading the body towards self distruction and further physical complications are major contributing factors.

The less your body moves the less fuel it requires.

and we in the 'developing' world are just plain greedy.

Dont see obesity in the under developed areas of the world

We in the west are thick and stupid

Ban beer

Go Wes go

Now where's that doughnut, I havent had one since breakfast, lunch , dinner
and its nearly supper time already.

gis an apple, or two

checkout trim down

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 05:19 PM

many, many factors need to be considered

There was almost no serious obesity in my family that I ever heard of (I couldn't gain much weight if you paid me), yet my younger brother (3 1/2 years)outweighed me by the time he was 10 years old, once got to almost 300 lbs. He was able to control it, but it was a mystery why he found it so easy to pack on pounds.

I have known people whose body type seemed to have been 'set' in childhood, and no amount of diets made much difference. But.... there is no reason not to explore the possibilities! Life can be pleasanter and maybe longer if really excessive pounds can be defeated.

I sometimes feel a bit guilty for having few dietary issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Rumncoke
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 07:37 PM

I find it amusing these days that everyone who gives advice on diet seems to assume that I eat a lot - I have watched in amazement as people who have no weight problems eat and eat and eat - I do not have any idea how they can eat so much and not look like an elephant seal.

Then there are the people who do look like elephant seals who spend all their time stuffing food into their mouths.

The one type of diet which works for me is low carb - but mention Atkins and medical people go ballistic.

Of course they think it is just fried foods and more fried foods - it isn't but they don't listen.

The part of most interactions with a medic which I most enjoy is when they think their doo dad for measuring blood pressure must be broken because mine comes out as normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 08:30 PM

Yes indeed Rumncoke, my wife eats much less than I do and is heavier.
She has the same problem with the medics, they just don't believe that she doesn't have high blood pressure and diabetes.

So, I guess that if your extra weight is due to over eating, then you can take it off with exercise and diet; but if your obesity is caused by genetics or by some disease then no amount of starvation is going to help.

While those who have lost 35 pounds certainly do have some bragging rights, they should not draw the conclusion that others who cannot produce the same results, are living a bad life style.

Those who have tried starvation diets without success and are willing to try something new, might want to take a look at the Shaklee 180 plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 08:34 PM

You get fat because you eat more food than your body needs. That is the bottom line.

There might be all kinds of reasons for that. Your body might be particularly efficient at using the food you eat, so that you need relatively little, but you still eat the same amount as other people who need more. In a famine you'd have much more chance of living than they would, but in a non-famine situation you put on lots of weight and die sooner than they do.

Or it might be that you eat a lot more than the other people, and there might be various reasons for that. With some people it's going to be a way of coping with problems of one sort or another, with some it's a matter of doing something they really enjoy, and with some it's a kind of addiction.

And of course once you've put on the weight it's a great deal harder to take it off, because carrying it around must be exhausting. It's very impressive how some people can get round at all. Sometimes I'm staggering along with a load of shopping and I get passed by some massive person the same height as me, and I think, they are lugging around several times as much extra weight as I have in the bags. Amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 10:45 PM

if all we had to do was lie down and respirate, you might be right. We have to produce enough energy to go to work, etc. So you can be quite overweight and not be eating more food than your body needs, which is quite rude by the way, but you are feeding your body the wrong mixture of food. If you put milk in your gas tank, lots of it, and try to shame the car because it is not driving, you have given enough food to your car but it is not going to work. Some car need diesel, some coal I presume, some gas. If you give them the wrong substance, no matter how much of it, plus you scold them severely, they are still not going to run.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 10:57 PM

The arrogance of the OP is effete.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 04:06 AM

"The arrogance of the OP is effete." Guest

I like words. But see, I have this hangup about using words that come close to what I wish to say. So- which of these meanings do you refer to?

Definition of EFFETE
1: no longer fertile
2: having lost character, vitality, or strength

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 05:48 AM

"You get fat because you eat more food than your body needs. That is the bottom line."

Not more food, more calories. My excess calories came in the form of alcohol not food. Bar going vegetarian my eating habits were no different when I put on a lot of weight four years ago compared to all the years previous. What changed and what caused the large weight gain, had nothing to do with food.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 10:22 AM

Drinks are food. Not always the best food, but that's another matter.   Whether our food is solid or liquid is less important than what it contains, and how much we have.

Colloquially we may talk about food and drink as if the former didn't include the latter, but that's rather the same as the way we talk about animals and birds as if only mammals counted as animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 11:12 AM

It's OK Ebbie. The opinions of an unnamed "guest" about the OP are not important. You might even say they carry no weight....

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 01:02 PM

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 04:08 PM

Right you are McGraw.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 08:07 PM

Today on the Ed Show he displayed the array of foods that a -Republican, of course - legislator bought while participating for a week in the SNAP experiment. The legislator scoffed at the idea that poor people couldn't live on food stamps- he said that * he * did and even gained weight that week.

Except for two items, the food he bought was ALL high calorie, high sugar and fats, NO fruit, NO vegetables, NO meat.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 08:14 PM

So it's not surprising he put on weight.

But putting on weight is only part of the problem of eating the wrong food, because you need the other stuff for health reasons unconnected with weight.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 08:37 PM

I saw that assortment of foods too. Can you live on it? Sure. Is it healthy - no way.

The deck is stacked against us. Doctors don't want to push us to change our lifestyles. If we have a symptom they are trained to just medicate it. Not help us to prevent it in the first place by eating right. Watch some TV tonight. You won't see a single ad for food that is really good for you - except perhaps orange juice.

And we're brainwashed into thinking we're too busy to cook for ourselves. So - as someone said the other night - we outsource our food supply to prepackaged food made by corporations. And corporations are not interested in our health. Just profits.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 08:46 PM

By the way - crock-pots are life savers. One or two nights a week you pile in some good stuff to eat and by morning you have enough healthy soup, chili or stew to provide lunches for a long time. Just put it in some single size containers and freeze it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 10:00 PM

A broken arm is NOT A DISEASE but it's a physical condition that normally benefits from professional treatment, and nearly all insurers cover the cost of treatment. It DOES NOT MATTER whether it's the result of your kid falling off the trampoline or your grandpa being run over by the kid that's trying to learn to drive the tractor.

The common cold is quite obviously a disease, for which there is no particularly effective treatment; but nearly all insurers cover the cost of taking your kid to the doctor and for the antibiotics mama DEMANDS that the doctor prescribe which have no effect on any virus other than to produce new resistant virus variations.

Obesity is a physical condition that impairs function and that is a verified cause of other problems, and in MOST REAL CASES REQUIRES PROFESSIONAL ASSISTANCE to be effectively managed or improved. Insurers have been exceedingly capricious about whether or not they will pay for the assistance required. The causes of the problem are of no more legitimate concern to the insurers than what caused a broken arm, and if classifying it as a "disease" can result in more consistent coverage that is the proper thing to do.

Since obesity is a cause of a number of derivative ailments that are very expensive to treat, and for which there generally are no "cures," it is unrealistic to predict that the cost to insurers will be increased, as it is equally likely that treating obesity, where possible, will reduce their costs for the other conditions that obesity creates or aggravates.

Calling it a "disease" does not imply any "technical redefinition" of what obesity is or what it means to the patient. It only means that the physician can list it on the insurance claim as a recognized basis for treatment - and may get paid if and when the fat pigs at the insurance companies accept the change.

(A fringe benefit might be that insurers will make some determination of what specific treatments are of sufficient benefit to be useful and will be covered for at least some of the many possible causes of obesity. This might cut into the profits of some of the fadmongers (see all above posts) who make millions every month off of phony and often harmful products they foist on the gullible.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Elmore
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 11:59 AM

Obesity a disease. Good. Then I can stay home from work and get paid by calling in fat.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Megan L
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 12:09 PM

man man it must be great tae be perfect and enjoy gloating over others.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Elmore
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 12:51 PM

Megan L: If that last post was directed to me, my entry was only intended to be a joke. Believe me I know from fat and have struggled with it for most of my adult life. I appreciate all the thoughtful posts on this thread. Just tried to make a (lame?) joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Janie
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 01:41 PM

Going back to your very first post, Wesley, But let's call it what it is - not a disease but mental disorder...., most mental disorders are diseases. Neuroscientific research over the past twenty years has made significant strides (with a long ways still to go) in establishing abnormalties in brain functioning, neural pathways and brain chemistry among people with mental disorders - including addictions, btw.

As others have said, obesity is a complex issue. There is no one cause. And while lifestyle choices always factor into weight, for people who are obese, there is typically much more involved than lifestyle choices.

Some information on the definitions of underweight, ideal weight, overweight and obese can be found at http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html.

BMI is an approximation.

Lots of aspects of life are about "lifestyle choices." But how simply or mindlessly those life style choices are to make varies a great deal from person to person. The variables are overdetermined and complex, are rooted in biology and genetics, and the complex matrix of how nature and sensory experience in early years shape neural pathways and the way the individual brain works.

In psychiatry, many of the medications that are essential to controlling the symptoms of serious mental illness are also known to lead to significant weight gain. I've worked with many patients who ended up stopping medications because while on them, they simply could not keep their weight under control and while off them, they had to put little or no thought into weight control. The reasons aren't entirely clear, but it is a well-known fact. Probably a combination of impacts on the metabolic system and the appetite centers of the brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 02:39 PM

"Since obesity is a cause of a number of derivative ailments"

I used to assume this, but since reading a bit around the topic (and having great blood tests and blood pressure) am less convinced that excess weight itself is a *cause* of health problems, so much as *behaviours* which may *also* lead to excess weight. Mostly journals describe obesity as a "risk factor" rather than a "cause" because cause has not been found, only correlation.

In other words excess weight is a *co-symptom* of damaging *behaviours* such as poor dietary choices and a sedentary lifestyle. I do believe it is possible to be significantly overweight (as I am) and not necessarily at any risk of heart disease or other issues that are often *associated* with obesity.

As I wrote above, I'm a wholefood vegetarian, my cholesterol, blood sugar and blood pressure are all absolutely perfect. I'm overweight because of prior bad habits, not current ones. I'm no longer at risk of the usual diseases correlated to obesity because my current habits are no longer destructive.

My current excess weight seemingly makes no difference to my health. At least no-one at the surgery has urged me to lose weight - as I have none of the symptoms of those kinds of diseases that are often correlated with obesity.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:31 PM

A while back there was an article in New Scientist postulating that the wave of obesity spreading globally could be due to a virus. I can't remember the evidence, though I think it was something to do with the pattern of spread by comparison with disease epidemics. They may even have had a culprit. I saw it the other day when I was sending old magazines to recycle, so can't refer to it.

But here is a link to a newspaper summary of the idea.

Article in Independent

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:39 PM

Correction. I tried making a link again, and it didn't work again.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/western-surge-in-obesity-may-have-been-caused-by-a-virus-2084737.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: maeve
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:53 PM

An excerpt from Penny S.'s link:

"The obesity explosion that has swept the Western world over the past 30 years may have been caused by a virus, scientists have said.

Researchers have discovered new evidence for an illness they have called "infectobesity" – obesity that is transmitted from person to person, much like an infection. The agent thought to be responsible is a strain of adenovirus, versions of which cause the common cold. It has already been labelled the "fat bug".

There are more than 50 strains of adenovirus known to infect humans but only one, adenovirus 36, has been linked with human obesity.

Now scientists at the University of California, San Diego, have found that children who showed evidence of infection with adenovirus 36 were more likely to be fat. In tests on 124 children aged eight to 18, the virus was present in more than 20 per cent of those who were obese, compared with less than 6 per cent of the rest. Among those infected with adenovirus 36, four out of five were obese..."

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 06:29 PM

If you're obese to an extent that affects your health, you aren't well, and appropriate medical help is needed.

Having insurance companies make decisions about stuff like that is an obscenity. If you're in a country where it's been handed over to those that's pretty hard luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 07:05 PM

I was skinny as a kid, and chubby as a kid. Depended on where in my development I was. And I grew up in an era where sodas were a rare treat not an every day occurence and we really only got candy at Easter and Christmas. Breakfast cereals were not sugar-coated. (Plus I preferred real food for breakfast.) My mother cooked from scratch.

My ancestry is German and I'm from the cornfed Midwest...and up until I was 32 I was Marilyn Monroe's size -- size 13 (36B bra size). I felt fat (and did something about it) at 150, and felt I looked my best around 125.

Then I met Curmudgeon (when I was 32) who not only was a wonderful cook (not that I'm not), but he would ply me with treats including high caloric (but really tasty) drinks. Plus he certainly didn't mind (and was actually attracted to) goddess-shaped women. (Me. Or so I became.)

Tom did most of the cooking for the past 30 years, but can now not see well enough to cook. No matter how much exercise or how well I eat (and I cook from scratch as well and REALLY avoid fast food and convenience food), I can't seem to regain my, uh, "girlish" figure. But I certainly don't fret about it. (I think yo-yo dieting is far more harmful than carrying extra pounds.) My mother's side of the family is on the hefty side. And, of my siblings, I'm the "skinny" one (comparatively).

About 13 years ago I tried to get into a study of people with a fat parent (my mother and her side of the family) and a skinny parent (my Dad) and I was initially turned down for some reason. When they finally decided to include me, my Dad had just passed away, so I was again ineligible.

I'm certain that genetics is considerably responsible for my weight. I try to eat well and get as much exercise as I can to stay flexible (especially for my knees' sake). I don't ingest artificial sweeteners or high fructose corn syrup (so I seldom drink soda), which I feel are responsible for a lot of ill health. I try to keep everything in balance and in moderation. I like beer or wine with meals and most nights a drink before bed. I stay away as much as possible from prepared or highly processed food.

Don't get me started on the politics of food...

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,bert
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 09:10 PM

The problem with stating that obesity "is a lifestyle choice, pure and simple" is that people who are obese tend to believe it and try to cure their obesity by dieting.

However, if your obesity is caused by a chronic illness, such as Non Hodgkins lymphoma, then dieting will make you worse. Obesity is not ALWAYS a lifestyle choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 11:31 PM

I think so many people are overweight despite valiant efforts because of horrifyingly bad advice given by supposed experts. The information is out in plain sight..it is not encrypted in some foreign medical journals. We have ways to measure things..weight, circumference, insulin and blood sugar levels, indices of inflammation, hormonal levels, including cortisol and DHEA. We can measure these things while people eat saturated fat or the phobia of the day and see that for some people it is not good and for some people, certainly myself, it is wonderful. Carbs will show up as being good or bad for some people..I can barely eat any without gaining weight...It could not possibly be that people whose ancestors ate mostly buffalo or mostly bananas or mostly oats could all have the same metabolic needs, although we are all so mixed it will be hard to unsort this. Some of us have more Neanderthal heritage than others...

So many people slavishly follow very bad advice and end up ruining their health. There is a lot of malpractice going on in this area.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:31 AM

On a slightly different note: one thing to bear in mind when you hear about the 'obesity epidemic' is that what you and I think of as 'obesity' is not necessarily what the medical community thinks of as such. I was somewhat rudely awakened to this a couple of years ago when my doctor told me that I - yes, me - was 'obese'. Now I realize you'll have to trust me on this, but I was not even what most laymen would consider 'overweight', by the look of me - but the good doc had taken my height and body mass and consulted his chart, and 'obese' was the verdict. (Changed my diet, became a little more active, and soon knocked off the prescribed 20 lbs or so. I was positively svelte. Put a few pounds back on since then; now only possibly svelte.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,goatfell
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 06:31 AM

well no one forced the food down their throats or told them that will get fat, I'm fat and it's my and their choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM

I don't think anyone makes a conscious decision that they want to get fat. But at some point when they pack on the pounds they look in the mirror and on some unconscious level they decide - I'd rather not put in the work necessary to take off the weight so I'll just go buy a larger pair of pants. It's easier that way.

And to repeat what I said in my OP - "There are those unlucky few that can trace their excessive weight to a medical problem. But those people are very few. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the rest of us.".

If you're sitting down to a lunch of a bacon double cheeseburger, large fries and a diet coke you can't blame meds or a glandular condition.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Rumncoke
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 07:55 PM

The problem I have with every diet approved by medical people is that I put on weight if I eat more than about 100 gm of carbs a day - and their diets seem to have more than that.

I have been told again and again that I am doing it wrong - not following the sheet, cheating, lying.

I did one diet where you drink two shakes and eat a normal meal each day.

As I only eat one proper meal a day I was not losing weight, but the people selling the shakes were confident that I just needed to buy yet another additive and the weight would just drop off.

Mind you - if those nice people at the supermarket would only stop adding starch and sugar to the meat looking foods it would really help.

There are shelves and shelves of cooked meats, all neatly sliced and packed, with the information that they contain 'stabilisers' in the small print, or information that the coating is mostly starch and sugar in the fold of the packaging.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 09:03 PM

Who was it that sold you the shakes?

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 10:02 PM

you obviously at this time need less than 100 starchy or sugary carbs a day..if you go back to lumberjacking you might need more. Everyone has a limit and the not smart people who give advice can't comprehend this.

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 01:31 PM

a cursory look thru gooogle for metabolic types doesn't show a lot of serious study in the field...

it would seem that there is moe interest in finding "fat" genes than study genomic variations within populations.

cultural anthropolgy has more data on foods of indigenous peoples than the medical search provided... hmmm

without knowledge of the available foods in a region and for how long, you have a hard time making reasonable assumptions to start building your hypothesis. then you need to know how long a people have been in those regions. tangled web...

Subject: RE: BS: Obesity a disease? Really??
From: Rumncoke
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 07:01 PM

Oh - it was a while ago and the memory is not what it was - they were a well established slimming organisation.

I think their origins were in 'the Cambridge diet' - that goes back many decades now.

I did some work on that when I was with Lyons Tetley, later Allied Lyons - I quite liked the products, but they were equivalent to 30 gm of carbs in each sachet - three of those in a day and I did not lose any weight.