BS: Bury the Ashes?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 10:21 AM

Or tiddlywinks ~~ no joke!; very skilful game. The most brilliant girl in my wife's year at Newnham, Classical Scholar, double ** First, married that year's captain of the University tiddlywinks team. We stayed in touch for many years. They appeared ideally happy.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: IanC
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 10:54 AM

The difference between Test Cricket and most other sport/games is that the others are a battle, whereas cricket is a war.

In a war, tactics and technique just aren't enough. You need to marshall your resources for the longer term destruction of the enemy.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:38 PM

Hi

I agree with Raggytash and others who thought that this was a brilliant Test Match.

It was exciting stuff to watch as the match continually swung to and fro. Of course there were some "iffy" moments and some controversial
ones too.

I like Raggy's comparison of Cricket to Baseball as one of Chess with draughts ( checkers). Not only do the fielding side have to know every batsman's weaknesses and strengths and to set the fielders to attempt to stop the batsman scoring, but also the batsmen have to try to memorise and visualise the field placings and try to pierce the defences.

"war" was a good word to describe Test Cricket; especially England v Australia. I await the forthcoming games with expectancy and some anxiety. This Aussie team have shown that they are not going to lie down and let England roll over them.

Michael....I understand your comment about the way the last wicket fell and agree that a catch like Cook's for the wicket before this one would have been a wonderful finish to a thoroughly exciting game.....but.....I'll take to ending as it came because a win is a win !!

I have tickets for the match at Old Trafford....wouldn't it be just great if Jimmy Anderson could produce another match-winning performance on his own ground.

Kind Regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 04:22 PM

MikeL2 ....................... I am envious, tickets for a test at Old Trafford, against the "old enemy".

My idea of bliss, sunny day, bottle of wine, England 560 for one declared at tea on the second day, Australia bowled out for 200 on the third.

In my dreams !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 04:58 PM

Actually, without wanting to be too po-faced or humourless or puritanical about it ~~ but "war" is actually a very unfortunate word in the context IMO. Remember Boris Becker when he was once eliminated rather early from Wimbledon, and some silly reporter asked him in tones of deepest woe to comment, obviously hoping for tears and hysterics. "I lost a game of tennis," he said. "That's all. There wasn't a war. Nobody died."

Wise words...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,roderick warner
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM

I like baseball and cricket - different games. Less boring than most 'folk' music, imo...

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:18 PM

Did you see the final Becker lost to his compatriot Michael Stich - I didn't see any "tears" (M) but there were plenty of "hysterics" from Boris - it wasn't cricket.

Raggytash - I was actually born in St. Mary's hospital, Manchester, the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup (not cricket, either), before being brought up in Australia...http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.co.uk/.

Back to cricket - a sarcastic "well left" from the slips or wicket- keeper following an air-swing only really applies to test-cricket, because, as I keep saying, in limited-over cricket the bowler gets rewarded with a dot-ball for being too good for the batsman.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 08:04 PM

Oh WAV....Not that bloody Alf Ramsey story again (for the 100th time). Give it a rest. And what has football got to with cricket anyway? You obviously enjoy Limited overs cricket. Matches your limited attention span methinks. Nobody is going to take up your crackpot ideas any decade soon. Particularly after the amazing game we witnessed last week. If you don't like Test cricket. Don't watch it.....Simples

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:54 AM

If Haddin had made a WORSE effort, Ralphie, and missed the thing completely, you would have had a bit more "test" cricket.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Gutcher
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:00 PM

I never ever thought I would have had the opportunity of praising the sportsmanship and superior behavior of snooker players over that of cricket players.                                                                                     Having been brought up on a diet of cricket as a game played by gentlemen whose whole ethos was to set an example to us lesser mortals, but, as in many fields, when the lure of filthy lucre enters the equation morals in this modern world are very easily dispensed with.
This series will always be tainted by the unsporting behavior of one man who, had he been a gentleman, would not have taken advantage of an umpires error. It certainly ruined for me what, up to that point, had been an excellent match.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:06 AM

But this is all nothing new, despite the tone of some posts. A letter in today's Times reminds us of an incident when Bradman failed to walk when obviously out, and Hammond's appeal was turned down. That was in 1946.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:46 AM

MtheGM is, of course, right.

Loathed though I am to link to the Daily Mail, this article from 2002 reinforces the point.

To suggest that this series will always be tainted is franky absurd.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:11 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:12 AM

A lot of it is folklore, for that matter. I was brought up on a slightly different version of the W G Grace story told in that Mail article linked by Ed: that Grace was clearly stumped, but the square leg umpire said emphatically, "Not out"; then, turning to the wicket-keeper, added, "And you look here, young man; all these people have come here to see Dr Grace bat, not to watch your monkey-tricks!"

Same story in two different folkloric variants? Or two different occasions? Or never really happened, but se non è vero, è ben trovato ?

Who can tell?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:14 AM

I think there always will be a bit of controversy when someone is as clearly out as Broad was and opts not to walk. Personally, I'd prefer to see players walk but recognize that as the batsman's choice and am not sure I can complain too much as a player not walking is acting within the laws of the game.

From the other side, I was interested to read that Adam Gilchrist had been accused of showing disrespect to the umpires for his decisions to walk so perhaps you can't win either way.

As for tainting the series. I don't know how the rest of it will go by I think this particular match will be remembered for its twists and turns, Agar's remarkable innings at no 11 and an exiting finish. OK, there were a couple of controversial points (Trott given out was another) but I think very few would see the game itself as anything other than an excellent test match.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:39 AM

Graves are very expensive. Maybe they should just flush me down the toilet. I've done that to turtles and goldfish, so it would serve me right. I buried the cat, though...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Gutcher
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:08 AM

In the historical examples given there may or may not have been room for reasonable doubt, I ignore the apocryphal stories of W. Grace, in the current debate Broad had no excuse, he should have walked without even awaiting the umpires decision.
As a neutral supporter of test match cricket I do not see the view I take on this matter as absurd. I am sure many of those debating the same will be of my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:25 AM

Why did he need an 'excuse/? "Should" by what compulsion, Gutcher? I can see the reason for your opinion. But it is surely at least equally arguable that to promote a gentlemanly convention into an invariable rule offers an alarming precedent for all sorts of unreasonable expectations to become engrained. I do not see how sanctions can be applied to anyone who has broken no laws, be these the laws of a nation or those of a sport. The worst that should happen to him would be that he might be booed by some in the crowd and ostracised by some in the Pavilion. What do you think should have happened to him?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:35 AM

OK, 'absurd' was possibly too strong a word. I do however think that the importance of the incident is being much overplayed.

One point that hasn't been given much prominence are the particular pressures of 'gentlemanly' responses to such situations within a team environment.

Gutcher mentions snooker and I've heard various discussions regarding the scrupulous honesty of golfers. I'd suggest that it's a hell of a lot easier when you only have yourself to consider.

Phil Tufnell made an astute point: "If you walked off with one run to win the Ashes, your team-mates wouldn't talk to you." This is before even thinking about your influence on other people's prize money (or 'filthy lucre' if you must, I suppose).

Additionally, and we'll never know, what if Broad had been instructed not to walk? Ian Botham is reported as saying, when captain, that "anyone who walks will have me to answer to."

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Gutcher
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:02 AM

We are all programmed from childhood in different ways. What I personally deem to be the right code to live by is obviously not that followed by these profesional sportsmen and their supporters whose attitude seems to be win at any cost no matter how many millions of people are aware of the route followed to achieve that end.
As regards individual sports such as golf I have a hazy recollection of some controversy surrounding the actions of Colin Montgomery in an important match, the details of which escape me at this time.
Many late night snooker matches were enlivened by a player drawing the referees attention to an unseen foul commited by him, that was true sportsmanship in my book.
If cricketers are afraid of the adverse opinions of their fellow teammates this is a sad reflection on the moral compass of the whole team and of the supporters who encourage such actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:19 AM

Your moral upbringing in this particular was clearly exemplary, Gutcher, and much to be respected. But it does seem to have left you a bit doctrinaire as to its universal applicability, a bit intolerant of deviance from it ~~ and prone to reject any hint of precedents to this outrage [as you view it] which you refer to as if it was unique in the history of sport, and no such thing had ever been heard of before: so what if the Grace stories may be a bit apocryphal and folkloric as I said?; the Bradman 1946 one wasn't.

I wonder whether such intolerance and lack of empathy were the effect that those who imbued you {'programmed' as you call it} from childhood onwards with such excellent principles, would have been aiming for, or would have approved.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:27 AM

How many times does it have to be said? This was NOT "win at any cost" (with the inference that cheating is to be condoned).

There was no foul play, no law broken, no intentional deception (how often have players from ALL nationalities rubbed their forearms having been hit on the glove?).

I take your point, Gutcher but I think calling the players' 'moral compass' into question is a little extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MikeL2
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 09:54 AM

Hi Raggy

Sometimes dreams do come true !!!

I have watched many Tests at Old Trafford and at one time both my son and I were members there.

The first England V Australia Test I saw there was in 1948.

I remember having to get up very early in the morning and go and queue for three hours to get in.

It was the only time that I saw Don Bradman ( surely still acknowledged as the best ever batsman in the World ?)

He disappointed this time though, scoring only a handful of runs - bowled by Dick Pollard - very popular as Dick was a Lancashire player.

Cyril Washbrook - another Lancashire Player scored a double century and then 80 odd not out in front of his own crowd.

I saw Lindwall and Miller who were to become a fantastic opening attack in future years.

If I remember correctly the infamous Manchester rain came to the rescue of the Aussies.

""Those were the days my Friend""

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 09:56 AM

Deciding if a batsman is in or out is the umpire's job, with or without the aid of the square leg/DRS umpires. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MikeL2
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:29 AM

Hi

An interesting discussion Gentlemen.

can I add a couple of salient points ?

1. I don't think that the Broad "catch" was straightforward at all. The wicketkeepers gloves were almost touching Broad's bat and the deviation was unusually high for that kind of snick.
The umpire who did not give him out is considered to be the best in the World at the moment.
Broad is primarily a bowler and as such has had to put up with many decisions of batsmen who refuse to walk.

2. In the second Australian innings, Clarke the Australian Captain also refused to walk. He was given out by the umpire but challenged the decision. Only after being given out by the 3rd umpire using the technology did he walk. I have not seen any vilification of him as as happened to Broad.

3 I played League Cricket at various levels in various parts of the UK. I can tell you that whether to walk or not has always been an issue. It got progressively more common NOT to walk over the years and now I believe that anyone who does so is in a very small minority.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:40 AM

2. In the second Australian innings, Clarke the Australian Captain also refused to walk. He was given out by the umpire but challenged the decision. Only after being given out by the 3rd umpire using the technology did he walk. I have not seen any vilification of him as as happened to Broad.

Presumably Clarke made the challenge (as allowed by the DRS system) as he believed he was wrongly given out.

Whether one agrees or not with Broad's decision not to walk, I don't think there is any doubt that he knew the umpire was wrong. His challenge to the umpire (to compare with Clarke challenging the umpire) would actually have been to walk.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MikeL2
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:04 AM

Hi Jon

Interesting viewpoint. I think that Clarke knew he had hit the ball. IMO his decision was much more obvious than Broad's. He was challenging in the hope that the umpire got it wrong. After the match he as good as admitted it by saying he does not believe in batsmen walking.
Either way I don't think we will see any players walking in the next games in the series !!!

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:07 AM

Pete Jennings ~~ It is the job of the square leg umpire to decide on a stumping or a run out at the batsman's end.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Gutcher
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 12:41 PM

Greetings all---I have no further comment to make on the morality or lack of it in professional sportsmen and their supporters.
Since my last post at 7.02 AM. I have learned a beautiful song from a thread above the line--"When I Mowed Pat Murphy"s Meadow In The Days Of Long Ago"--- Newfoundland with Irish and Scottish connections. Chust sublime as Para Handy would have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:04 PM

When I was playing junior cricket and the two coaches doubled as umpires, our coach once told us to make sure we appeal, because he'd seen but couldn't dismiss a batsman LBW as no one bothered to appeal!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: IanC
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:56 AM

Well ... when an OUT decision is challenged, the first thing the 3rd umpire looks at is whether the ball was a no-ball. If Broad had walked, it wouldn't have allowed for the possibility that it was a no-ball and we still can't be sure if the ball was actually valid.

Broad had a perfect right to allow someone to decide whether he was out or not. If it had been an uncalled no-ball then he wouldn't have been, would he?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:04 AM

Great start for the Aussie's, 40 minutes gone and three wickets to the good.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:16 AM

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!
Let's hope Trottie and Bell get their act together.
Great shots of The Long Room!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 09:37 AM

hi

Oh dear 127-4 Trott out 58 !!! Just as it gets better it gets worse !!!

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:54 AM

182-4. Still some hope, esp. after Jonny Bairstow's lucky let-off!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 08:04 PM

Here's when the truer tests begin:
Friday 6th September 2013, Leeds 10:15

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Sooz
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:40 AM

Even more hope now Backwoodsman - 120 for 9! "Come on you whites."

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:35 PM

Come on the one-day internationals.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:25 AM

Given the Scots have gone it alone with cricket and are due to play Australia in a one day international, is it time for England and Wales to do the same and compete AGAINST each other and Australia, etc?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:00 AM

WAV. Considering the amount of cricket already being played....Tests...40 over matches...20/20 etc during the year. When are you planning to fit in Scot/Irish/Welsh/English matches? Middle of the night perhaps? Meanwhile. The second test (Which you so hate) is progressing in a good fashion. The Aussies are on the back foot, but it's still fascinating stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:34 PM

Scrapping the "tests", Raplphie, would free lots of time for limited-over internationals, and cricketers would not have to be away from home and family for so long.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:20 AM

WAV. Nothings going to change so you might as well give. And please tell me how the Aussies are going to see more of their families? Commute from Brisbane?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:56 AM

Ralphie - 5 days x 5 "tests" is 25 days of cricket, whereas 5 one day internationals take up...(scratching head)...

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:44 AM

Welcome to the Strange World of Walkabouts Verse.

Well at least he's not quoting his interminable insufferable crap poetry.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 08:31 AM

Dave H. Have you seen his dreadful You Tube videos? Makes you want to stick pins in your eyes. How out of tune can someone be? I'd lie down in a darkened room before watching.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 08:33 AM

Oh and BTW, The Aussies are doing rather badly. Not much of a contest, which is a shame. Could be over in the next couple of hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 01:41 PM

Ralphie,you come over as an unpleasant,nasty person,why do you have to rubbish wavs you tube videos.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:02 PM

Have you seen them?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:14 PM

I think it is unnecessary to bring in to a discussion, any mudcat members, you tube videos.
For the same reason I do not and have not commented on your music.
The point I am trying to make is this, by bringing something that is not relevant to the discussion[wavs videos], you are making a personal attack, you are bullying and also trolling and flaming, give it a break please, it has nothing to do with burying the ashes.
I do not agree with WAV , I think test cricket is the best from of cricket, but I see no need to attack another persons videos or poetry.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:59 PM

I've only got wind of the test results through here and TV news (it being one-sided quite suits me), but do intend to watch at least the highlights (if I can without Sky Sports?) of the upcoming one-dayers - and certainly not prostrate in a darkened room, Ralphie!