Folklore/History: Irish Famine

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 03:49 PM

Sorry.
I take it back.
It was taking the piss in dialect, and not taking the piss in cod Scots.
I hope that serious issue is cleared up.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 03:03 PM

And why is 'dialect' cod Scots?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:31 PM

Gutcher, I have no criticism of your contribution.
You posted in dialect was all I meant by "cod Scots."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:28 PM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 02:58 AM

Steve, it was a famine triggered by the blight.
All historians agree it was catastrophic for Ireland.
The old "nationalist" historians regarded the English as being uniquely uncaring and the Irish as uniquely the victims.

"Revisionist" historians challenge the view that England was culpable.

English and Scots peasants were also displaced and filled coffin ships.
Richard mentioned the enclosures, and in Scotland were the clearances.
It was the English surplus population that Scrooge wanted reduced.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 04:19 AM

So Jim favours the "nationalist" version of the famine.
No surprise there Jim, but why should we ignore the views of modern historians who refute it?
Again, what is your opinion as a historian worth?

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:06 AM

"Nationalist" is no smear Jim.

Were you not aware that "revisionist" historians do not accept the view that "nationalist" historians have for so long regarded as objective truth.
Sorry, but that is a fact.
I am not a historian of any kind, and am just a messenger on this, so please don't shoot me.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:17 AM

The revisionist response & interpretation: from the foreword to The Great Famine
R. Dudley Edwards & T. Desmond Williams (eds.), The Great Famine: Studies in Irish History 1845-52, 1956
The traditional interpretation of the Great Famine is
fundamental to an understanding of the character of
Irish society in the second half of the 19th century and
later. But if modern research cannot substantiate the
traditional in all its forms, something surely more
sobering emerges which is, perhaps, of greater value
towards an appreciation of the problems that beset all
mankind, both the governors and the governed in every
generation. If man, the prisoner of time, acts in
conformity with the conventions of society into which
he is born, it is difficult to judge him with an
irrevocable harshness. So it is with the men of the
famine era. Human limitations and timidity dominate
the story of the Great Famine, but of great and
deliberately imposed evil in high positions of
responsibility there is little evidence. The really great
evil lay in the totality of that social order which made
such a famine possible and which could tolerate, to the
extent it did, the sufferings and hardship caused by the failure of the potato crop.

http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/KS3_Famine_Interpretations.pdf

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 01:52 PM

And yet again you refuse to respond to what has been presented to you.
You have documented evidence before you - from Government records, from the author......

Must I tell you again I am no historian?
I read what historians write after they have studied all those sources.

I find there is an old traditional version of famine history, and a version that modern historians have put in its place.
It says little for your scholarship that you were not even aware of that dichotomy, never mind the accepted terms for the 2 sides of the rift.

All I did was to give something of the modern view after the thread had dwelt at length solely on the traditional, nationalist version.

You have recently been an open apologist for every shitty little despotic regime
That is a nasty smear and a lie.
I have been an apologist for no regime.
If I had been, we could still have a reasoned discussion of this.
Do not try to make this about me again.
Do not make it personal.





Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:38 AM

Jim, I am not the historian, and I did not expect you to agree with them all, but they are eminent and respected.

I did not choose the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" as applied to historians of the famine.
Google "revisionist nationalist history famine ireland" and see what comes up.

Nothing I gave is unlinked.
The '56 piece was from an up to date source for schools on the differing views of the famine.
The link is provided!

That final nasty little smearing swipe at me is completely unjustified and unwarranted, but you always have to make these things personal.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Gutcher
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:20 PM

KoH
As I have never met with the term "cod" Scots you could perhaps give me an explanation of the meaning.
My post of 30.7.13. is quite explicit and suggests that the reading of a diary written on the ground at the time may throw some light on the subject under discussion. I have no idea whether the historians have read this work which is about Ireland and not Scotland as your above post suggests.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:15 PM

'Grumpy, the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" in the context of famine history were explained by me, with quotes, in a few posts on 16th July.'

Nope, you just cited other sources (and misinterpreted at least two of them), so I'll repeat my request for you to define 'revisionism' in your own words. Come to think of it, I don't think you understand the concept of nationalism either!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 01:31 PM

Gutcher, your whole contribution has been a couple of sentences about events in Scotland, and one sentence of cod Scots in your second and last post.
The shouters down are those who did not want to read that most historians do not hold the government culpable.

Grumpy, the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" in the context of famine history were explained by me, with quotes, in a few posts on 16th July.

If you want an example of someone who REALLY does not understand, read this.
"Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:40 AM

Keith - a friendly (and final - to you) word on this subject
You started off vilifying "revisionists" as those with an agenda which is the reason why they blame Britain for the consequences of the Famine
You also claimed that "revisionists" who blamed Britain were very much in the minority.
You now appear to be advocating on behalf of "revisionism" and suggesting that people here are "dismissing" it.
You have been provided with a long list of your having done both.
You strongly supported Christine Kenealy's line when you believed she had claimed that Britain was in no way to blame for the disastrous outcome of the Famine, yet you totally ignore her view it was the opposite.
Nobody here, apart from yourself, is dismissing any branch of history - they are both related, one arising from the other.
If you want to be taken serious on this, or any subject, I suggest you acquaint yourself with as many of the facts of those subjects rather than relying on randomly gathered web snippets, as you invariably do.
A good start here might be that you clarified your understanding of the meaning and implications of the terms "revisionism" and "traditional".
You say that you have never read a book on the Famine; might I suggest that it might be a good idea if you put that right and went and read one - or even two, maybe?
Over and out as far as this rather confusing interlude is concerned.
Jim Carroll"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Gutcher
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 12:41 PM

KoH
"And you are all unreasonable in shouting me down."
[Q] Please tell me where I shouted you down.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 12:34 PM

Just a thought, but having read through the entirety of this thread, it strikes me that Keith hasn't a clue what revisionism means. Perhaps he'd like to define this in his own terms (and not copy and paste somebody else's definition)?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM

Flora
While I agree wholehearted with virtually all the points you make, and would add some 'lessons to be learned' of my own, I can't agree that any of them are "more important"
"Apportioning blame" is not an issue here, understanding why things happened the way they did, if for no other reason than to cope with natural disasters beyond our control is what it should, and as far as I'm concerned, is what it is all about.
The potato blight was a natural disaster.
The reliance on the potato exacerbated that "natural disaster".
The basic inhumanity, the placing of economic interests over human well-being, and the political and moral judgement that drove those in charge to respond the way they did, that was the important factor, not the blight itself - what has become blindly obvious over the last decade is that the handling of that "natural disaster" was the cause of most of the deaths, misery, hardship and emigrations - as John Mitchel put it "God created the blight, the British created the famine."
I believe that a lesson can be learned from all this and applied to many of the contemporary situations, from flooding in Florida to famine in the Third Word.
One interesting feature of our recent understanding of the famine has been the apparent effect that Tony Blair's apology has had on the current peace process (I never thought I'd ever have anything good to say about that man!)   
One of the penalties of attempting to ignore the whole facts of history and brushing the bad bits under the carpet is that it always comes back to bite your bum - "what have THEY got to hide?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:06 AM

*ignore*

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 05:58 AM

Jim, why can't you just respond to my perfectly reasonable posts in a rational, calm and thoughtful way?
We could have a normal discussion instead of one sided combat.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:39 AM

More importantly - what should we understand from the debate and apply to present times.
- the danger of overpopulation ( There is nothing good about 10 billion )
- of mono culture ( and lack of bio diversity in food plants)
- of some sections of society benefiting at the expense of the rest ( land and food speculators )
- the difficulty of capitalism to act co operatively even if problems are understood and accepted ( climate change)
- that apportioning blame can lead to understanding or hostility.

As folkies we often look down on pop music for its trivia. Are we also missing some of the big issues?
FloraG

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:38 AM

"The unedifying sight of two punch-drunk combatants reeling round the ring continues."
Finished as far as I'm concerned Martin - I've helped nause up enough threads - you have my word on that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:13 AM

No.
I am not a combatant.
There is nothing combative in any of my posts.

I am attacked for just reporting that historians have differing views.

Please, anyone, what have I done?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:00 AM

The unedifying sight of two punch-drunk combatants reeling round the ring continues...

Pity.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 03:29 AM

If I am out of step, please tell me how.
Suzy and mg, if I have offended, please help me not to do it again.

Was it wrong of me to point out that historians are divided?
Was it wrong of me to give those brief, short quotes?
I did it in neutral and unprovocative posts, but was subjected to an abusive attack.
Do you condone that.

Should I refrain from any contribution because Jim Carroll is incapable of dealing rationally with an alternative viewpoint?

Suzy and mg, I expect such treatment from Jim, but I did not expect it from you.
Again, please, what have I done?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Gutcher
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:24 PM

A'buddies oot o step but oor Jock!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 11:32 AM

You started off vilifying "revisionists" as those with an agenda which is the reason why they blame Britain for the consequences of the Famine
You also claimed that "revisionists" who blamed Britain were very much in the minority.
You now appear to be advocating on behalf of "revisionism" and suggesting that people here are "dismissing" it.

I have not vilified the "revisionist" or the "nationalist" famine historians.
I joined this thread because only the "nationalist" version had been put.
I offered a couple of short "revisionist" quotes.
Jim found that unacceptable, and that is the source of all the hostility.

There has been no hostility from me.
No hysterical abuse and no offensive name calling in technicolour posts

You all seem to find it unacceptable for anyone to mention that there is a revisionist version of this history.
Christine Kenealy stated as a matter of fact that revisionist historians are in the MAJORITY and have been for over EIGHTY YEARS.

I think I was being reasonable in allowing that version to be put, and you are all unreasonable in shouting me down.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:05 PM

" But a constant battering of the powers that be at the time does not do us all that much good at least in my opinion"
Skirting around why things happened is somewhat impractical, even if it were desirable.
Over the last month or so I was astounded to learn of how little there was in both English and Irish history books on the details of the Famine, beyond the blight and the death and immigration numbers, even though there is a great deal of oral history.
It was the 150th anniversary that prodded the historians into action full-time (presumably it would have happened on the 100th anniversary, but Britain was a bit busy then!
Much of the "unknown stuff" is very much a part of the whys and wherefores of the famine.
Any family involved in personal research not only needs, but has a right to know what happened to their forebears, not in order to extract revenge or point fingers - simply to follow trails.
This country is covered with unregistered famine graves - at one of the larger towns, Ennistymon, here on the west coast, the workhouse was dealing with so many deaths that they ordered special coffins with hinged bases so they could be re-used over and over again to cope with the number of dead.   
On several occasions we were told of local patches of "hungry grass" - fields where is claimed unmarked famine graves were sited and where they said if you walk over it on the anniversary of the burials, you will experience hunger pains.
The famine is part of the Irish Psyche, suggesting that there are some bits we shouldn't discuss is not unlike teaching 20th century history by saying "In 1939 Britain went to war, but we never talk about why it started or what happened".   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 01:59 PM

I think that would be a very good idea. In the meantime, there are those of us who are more interested in what happened to our ancestors, need help tracing immigration patterns, need to know individual stories. We know that there was bad governance; we know that there were countless abuses. But a constant battering of the powers that be at the time does not do us all that much good at least in my opinion, and it prevents the stories from being told. And there are stories that probably have not died out yet. There are genealogy efforts on both sides of the ocean and elsewhere that are knitting together stories; there is so much DNA evidence that will be found. If you could back off the endless repetitive stuff and let the unknown stuff emerge I for one would appreciate it. And we can all ask ourselves what we are doing about starvation in countless places in the world. And abuses right now.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 01:49 PM

You know Jim, these people may have a point. Keith does rather seem to enjoy showing up to give you a hard time just for the sake of doing it. You probably shouldn't talk to him anymore.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,cobra
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 08:07 AM

Jim, leave Keith to wallow in his own ignorance. He is a troll of the highest order, he offers nothing other than attempts to draw others into his web where obfuscation, dissembling and distortion of facts is his standard MO For example:-

"I merely reported ..... using the expression used by Don T.
As I have often told you, I do not have knowledge of it myself to form such an opinion."

Virtually every thread he gets involved in is on the basis that he takes umbrage that Perfidious Albion has ANY responsibility for the more vile elements of military campaigning, treatment of the colonised etc.

Of course, he reserves his greatest obfuscation for anything to do with Ireland. He has variously claimed intimate knowledge of Ireland , having spent extensive time in Northern Ireland and seeing no triumphalism etc in the various parades. When challenged and pinned down on this, he admitted he had been there one weekend for a wedding!

Far and away the favourite ploy he uses is to deflect and refuse to answer when his arguments are demolished, usually with the rejoinder: "Ah but Jim/ Don/ whoever, II do not know anything. I merely report the writings/ words of "famous historians/ experts on culture etc"

Jim, I encourage you, do not bite at his pathetic utterings. I have voted with my feet. Still, it gives me a perverse pleasure to observe him on various threads continuing to indulge his ignorant bile and his nasty and dangerous BNP/EDL ranting which, even by his standards, sounds increasingly ignorant and stuck in League of Empire Loyalist mists of time. Nevertheless, it were better that he is denied the oxygen of publicity, as one of his more recent political heroes more recently opined.

To conclude (and to paraphrase), I do not mean to be offensive ;-))) I merely offer these words which have been ratified by experts in the world of internet trolling and analysts of far-right styles of messageboard. If anyone has an argument with that, please do not take me to task, talk to the experts who have stated these things. Oh, and if one needs to, a rudimentary Google search for my source material will provide reams of cut & paste material with which to confound the perfidious Albionist. He will appreciate that as a method for discussion which he has enjopyed (exclusively) for many years.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:40 AM

Keith - a friendly (and final - to you) word on this subject
You started off vilifying "revisionists" as those with an agenda which is the reason why they blame Britain for the consequences of the Famine
You also claimed that "revisionists" who blamed Britain were very much in the minority.
You now appear to be advocating on behalf of "revisionism" and suggesting that people here are "dismissing" it.
You have been provided with a long list of your having done both.
You strongly supported Christine Kenealy's line when you believed she had claimed that Britain was in no way to blame for the disastrous outcome of the Famine, yet you totally ignore her view it was the opposite.
Nobody here, apart from yourself, is dismissing any branch of history - they are both related, one arising from the other.
If you want to be taken serious on this, or any subject, I suggest you acquaint yourself with as many of the facts of those subjects rather than relying on randomly gathered web snippets, as you invariably do.
A good start here might be that you clarified your understanding of the meaning and implications of the terms "revisionism" and "traditional".
You say that you have never read a book on the Famine; might I suggest that it might be a good idea if you put that right and went and read one - or even two, maybe?
Over and out as far as this rather confusing interlude is concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:45 AM

Professional Historians, of course, will not be able to make a living if they write only in total agreement with that which their predecessors have written, this is the basis of much "revisionism" (ie Publish or die !)Their theories on historical facts are of no more value than those of anybody else who has researched. We have no need to be in awe of them.

Some make a living pushing the old version of history.
Their books are the best sellers.
We are told that revisionists have long been the majority.
We should not be in awe of them, but neither should we dismiss them as Jim does.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:39 AM

"It is a pity Jim, that you seem to constantly allow yourself to be goaded into intemperate language by Keith."
It is and I do Beach... all too often.
Keith has become Mudcat's self-appointed troll and I am stupid enough to take him seriously only because he chooses to practice his trollism on subjects that interest me – our combined stupidity has destroyed thread after thread.
I keep promising it won't happen again, but it probably will - apologies to all - again.
Your point about "professional historians" is well taken, as is Guest Robert's on "market adjustments'.
In Ireland, the refusal to discuss subjects like the Famine in depth extends beyond the history books into politics, where consecutive governments, without being able to ignore the subject altogether, have largely avoided apportioning or even discussing causes and blame for the catastrophe.
I believe this is because, despite having achieved partial independence, Ireland has become reliant on its people being able to emigrate to look for work during difficult economic times and Britain is their nearest port in a storm.
It is virtually impossible to meet anybody here who hasn't worked "at the building, on the roads" or "I was a nurse in a British hospital"....
Members of my own family have migrated back-and-forth for at least three generations.
It has become a bolt-hole for political and economic incompetence here, most recently since 'The Celtic Tiger' became was hunted to extinction.
The turning point in opening up the subject of the Famine studied appears to have been the 150th anniversary commemorations which produced a mass of well-researched literature, major publications, and well-researched media broadcasts and lectures on the subject - this continues to be the case.
I would highly recommend the recently published 'Atlas of the Great Irish Famine, a beautifully produced doorstep of a book crammed with nation-wide local information - not cheap, but already appearing at reduced prices.
We got our copy from The Book Depository - the fact that they don't charge for postage makes quite a difference to a book that weighs as much as a month's diet of potatoes for a Famine family would have!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 08:54 PM

It is a pity Jim, that you seem to constantly allow yourself to be goaded into intemperate language by Keith. This man obviously has a practised line in defending the indefensible using this as his tactic. His apparent calmness is his greatest weapon. You should rely for yours on the incontestable facts of those terrible times, God knows they have been written about in great volume ever since.
If anyone still considers, in this day and age, that the Government of Ireland, of the day, did not have major culpability in the deaths of a million people, they must indeed have very poor qualities of analysis.
Professional Historians, of course, will not be able to make a living if they write only in total agreement with that which their predecessors have written, this is the basis of much "revisionism" (ie Publish or die !)Their theories on historical facts are of no more value than those of anybody else who has researched. We have no need to be in awe of them.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Robert in Edinburgh
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:29 PM

Just read through this thread tonight, after a long absence. Interesting documentary material. I recall that, when I was at University, one Professor stated in that characteristically confident, quacking voice of the British ruling classes that the Irish potato famine was, and I quote exactly, "Market Adjustment". A major Scottish University; some time between 1996 and 1999.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 04:25 PM

BTW Jim, parades are only contentious by virtue of their route.
Nothing to do with "aggression" or "triumphalism" or "violence."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:41 PM

Sorry Jim, but there was nothing to justify " but the big aggressive ones in Derry and Belfast which were days out for thugs."
Nothing like that was ever said.
You made it up.
Obviously some are contentious.
That is why we have the Parades Commission.

Alibhai-Brown, Ahmed and Shafiq ALL stated their views, in their own words, that their culture led to the offending.
I merely reported that, using the expression used by Don T.
As I have often told you, I do not have knowledge of it myself to form such an opinion.

Now, why must you always attack me personally instead of just discussing the issues like a rational person.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 11:34 AM

"That quote does not say anything about "violent" or "triumphant" parades."
You slimeball bastard - I said you posted a statement from a leading Republican that they had no problem with peaceful marches - you denied you had and suggested I was lying
It was not a quote - it was a summing up of the Republican line on marches.
"They don't - I seem to remember it was your quote from a Republican leader that they had no problem with the vast majority of the marches which were well behaved, but the big aggressive ones in Derry and Belfast which were days out for thugs"
You really are a despicable little shit.
And yet again you are lying - nobody has ever said that "all male Pakistanis are "implanted" except you an the BNP
You have consistently failed to produce one single quote
" you claim that my old posts make me a bad person."
Thank you for making my point for me - and not just old posts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 09:35 AM

I don't suppose that describing "all male British Pakistanis" as being "cultury implanted' to make them prone to underage sex, is considered bad by people like you!

I do consider it bad, but it is the view of prominent, Left Wing British Pakistanis like Jasmin Alibhai-Brown and Lord Ahmed.
I was just reporting them.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 09:28 AM

One last time - are you claiming, as you appear to be, that you didn't post a statement by a leading Republican that "they have no problem with peaceful marches, but were just concerned with the violent, triumphant ones that caused the trouble" - yes or no?

Yes.

That quote does not say anything about "violent" or "triumphant" parades.
Everyone knows some are contentious Jim, and no-one denies it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 09:10 AM

"Yes."
Gotcha, you evil lying bastard
RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Keith A of Hertford - Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:17 AM
Gerry Kelly, Sinn Fein MLA for N Belfast said, "There are only a handful of Orange Order parades which are contentious. It is time that the Loyal Orders faced up to this reality and entered into dialogue with local residents to resolve these issues."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/10608851.stm


Your old posts do make you an evil shit
Am just (as promised) selecting your posts from the 'Have a Glorious Twelfth!' thread in which to blame "children" as the main cause of the 4 days rioting in Belfast and much, much more.
"there is nothing bad in any of my posts."
I don't suppose that describing "all male British Pakistanis" as being "cultury implanted' to make them prone to underage sex, is considered bad by people like you!
"(The thread wrench to parades and flags was you.)"
Oh no - not the dreaded "thread drift" gambit again" - which way to the air-raid shelter?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:20 AM

One last time - are you claiming, as you appear to be, that you didn't post a statement by a leading Republican that "they have no problem with peaceful marches, but were just concerned with the violent, triumphant ones that caused the trouble" - yes or no?
Yes.

You appear to be admitting that your presence on these threads is a game of one-upmanship and that you have no real interest in the subject in hand - do I have that right?
No.

Once again, instead of discussing the issues, you claim that my old posts make me a bad person.
I am not a bad person and there is nothing bad in any of my posts.
I only want to discuss the issues.
(The thread wrench to parades and flags was you.)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 04:06 AM

"I just wanted to see what excuse you would give for not doing what you offered."
You appear to be admitting that your presence on these threads is a game of one-upmanship and that you have no real interest in the subject in hand - do I have that right?
Tell me you didn't post the claim - simple as that - call my bluff and your wish shall be granted O crass one.
You have had the Republican stance on parades from the horses mouth, which was what this is about
You accused us of resenting people having their fun instead of being concerned over cretinous thugs injuring police and making the lives of the people of Ireland miserable and dangerous.
"Why do people so hate for them to just march and play?"
You do your crocodile tears act to the extent of using the death of the Omagh victims as a platform for your hand-wringing, yet you seem happy to ignore the present dangerous violence on the streets of Belfast and around the 'flag' protests which lasted for three months and has been described by the police as potentially life threatening.
You seem to have abandoned any shred of attempt to debate decently and articulately.
One last time - are you claiming, as you appear to be, that you didn't post a statement by a leading Republican that "they have no problem with peaceful marches, but were just concerned with the violent, triumphant ones that caused the trouble" - yes or no?
If the answer is "yes" that is your claim, I will be more than happy to find the statement and put it up here, along with your claims that the violence in the province was now over and the four nights of rioting was caused by children.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:13 AM

it was your quote from a Republican leader that they had no problem with the vast majority of the marches which were well behaved, but the big aggressive ones in Derry and Belfast which were days out for thugs - want me to dig that one out for you or do you intend to just walk away from your own stupidity

You can not.
I just wanted to see what excuse you would give for not doing what you offered.
A bluff, and I called it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 01:29 AM

And, you're bored by the Beatles.

Guess what? They're bored with you. I can hear it in their Liverpool accents.

What is it with you?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1MMDugt8ZRk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D1MMDugt8ZRk

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 11:24 PM

It was my understanding that loyalists brought violence and trouble to "protest" a Republican parade which had been planned and was expected to be peaceful.

Relax Jim, I know about these other obnoxious marches. This is where I learned it:

http://books.google.com/books?id=UXrm1KH752IC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA187&vq=Orange+drums

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 05:13 PM

Sorrry missed a bit
Jim Carroll

WHEN THE UNION FLAG CAN FLY AT CITY HALL BUT NOT AT STORMONT
By Gareth GordonBBC NI political correspondent

Q. When is a designated day not a designated day?
A. When it's in Northern Ireland.
The union flag is once more flying over Belfast City Hall to mark the birthday of the Duchess of Cambridge, one of the days designated by the Department of Culture. Media and Sport in London.
However, no flag has been raised over Parliament Buildings at Stormont.
The Assembly is guided by the Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000.
"There are 15 designated days; the birthday of the Duchess of Cambridge is not currently on that list." said an Assembly spokesperson.
"Since 2002, in accordance with Assembly Commission policy, Parliament Buildings adheres to the Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000, amended by the Flags Regulation (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) 2002, which specify arrangements for the flying of the Union Flag from government buildings in Northern Ireland."
'Inconsistency'
A spokesperson for Belfast City Council said: "Stormont, and other government buildings in Northern Ireland, are governed by the Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000, which does not cover council buildings.
"The decision by Belfast City Council was to adopt the designated days as set by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in Westminster as to the designated days for the flying of the union flag."
The Ulster Unionist Leader, Mike Nesbitt says he is seeking a meeting with the Secretary of State Theresa Villiers to ask her to address "this inconsistency."
He said: "It is a ridiculous situation that the union flag is being flown at full mast from Belfast City Hall today, but not at Stormont, because there is more than one agreed list of designated days.
"It appears Belfast City Hall goes with the designated day list published by the Department of Culture Media and Sport in London, which offers 18 designated days for Northern Ireland, while Stormont is governed by the list in the Flags Regulation Order of 2000. This had 17 days, but with the deaths of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, and The Princess Margaret, we are down to 15 days."
But the TUV leader Jim Allister said it was "an absolute scandal" that unionists on the Assembly Commission had failed to ensure that the list of "designated days" was kept up to date.
"It seems obvious to me that both the DUP and UUP have been asleep when it came to this issue, " he said.
"There is a unionist majority on the commission which decides when the flag flies and there is no reason why the matter could not have been addressed before now."
The Department of Culture. Media and Sport say there are 23 designated days on which the union flag can be flown at government buildings across the UK.
Three would not apply to Northern Ireland buildings (St David's Day - Wales only; St Andrew's Day -Scotland only and St George' Day - England only)
Two of those days listed are regarding the 'Day of Opening of a Session of the Houses of Parliament' by the Queen and the 'Day of the Prorogation of a Session of the Houses of Parliament' also by the Queen.
Flags should only be flown in the greater London area on these days.
To complicate matters the union flag flies every day on the Scottish Parliament building in Edinburgh alongside the Saltire, and the European flag.
Following Belfast City Council's decision at the start of December to fly the flag only on designated days the DUP has talked of increasing the number of days it flies at Stormont.
They want the Assembly Commission to consider the issue but so far it has been unable to meet because Sinn Fein the SDLP and Alliance have refused to attend.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20959694

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 04:46 PM

Just to be quite clear what's happening in Ireland at present
The unionists no longer represent the overall majority in (their bit of) Ulster - the never were the majority in the whole of the province but Britain gerrymandered the borders in order to leacve a protestant majority.
Since the Unionists have been losing their grip, the suggestion has been made that rather than the Union Jack being flown over Stormont, that the Ulster flag (far more 'historical than the U.J.) should fly here next to the Republican one.
The result has been violent and long term rioting by Unionist fanatical thugs to the extent that the Northern Ireland police have described it as life threatening.
This year's rioting was not between Loyalists and Nationalist, but between Orange thuggish morons and the police.
Even the recent Republican commemoration march passed off without any sign of trouble whatever, the only consequence being that an Ulster politician is considering suing the police for allowing it to happen.
The ongoing troubles have produced victims on all sides - from 90 years of anti-Catholic persecution, to the innocenrts killed from the last 'Troubles'
The Nationalist ascendency looks like the émpasse might have finally been broken and the violence ended - your 'Billy Boy' friends are not about to let that happen.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 03:49 PM

"Yes please"
What – so you can ignore it and refuse to acknowledge it when I produce it, or so you can say you only put t up because Jack Straw told you to      I don't think so.
Tell you what I will do – you deny you ever did such a thing and make it worth my while by proving yourself a liar as well as an extremist fanatic.
Otherwise, find it yourself.
I'll give you a clue where to look – it's the thread on which you claimed that the troubles surrounding the marchers were all over and it was children who were to blame for the four days of violent rioting.
Should I have to go and look for it, I'll bring back quotes and links to that particular crassness with it.
In the meantime – your quote's informant's statement is echoed here by Gerry Adams

"Their comments come as a Stormont working group gets ready to report on "a new and improved framework" to rule on parades.
"There are over three thousand Orange marches in the north every year," Adams writes.
"Generally speaking they pass off without any great fuss, not least because of the tolerance of everybody else. There are a small number of contentious parades which for years caused considerable difficulties.
"One of the big problems incidentally touched on by a loyalist leader Jackie McDonald this week is that the Orange would march into an area where they were unwelcome and leave everybody else to deal with the consequences in the weeks and months afterwards."
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/gerry-adams-rejoins-the-debate-on-disputed-parades-28522221.html

I couldn't believe that you were so stupid as to reopen a thread on which you have already humiliated yourself and could only continue to do – you missed my birthday by a monthy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:51 PM

Not like this parade.
Not ancient history.
The victims are still grieved for by their families.
"If anyone wants to gauge the atmosphere between the two communities in the north of Ireland, despite relative peace and power sharing, they should come to Castlederg and check the social mercury levels. The reason they have dropped so far is a planned parade to commemorate two IRA men who blew themselves up transporting a bomb into the town almost 40 years ago."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/blog/2013/aug/02/ira-men-northern-ireland-parade-castlederg

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:45 PM

"want me to dig that one out for you"
Yes please.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:32 PM

"Why do people so hate for them to just march and play?"
They don't - I seem to remember it was your quote from a Republican leader that they had no problem with the vast majority of the marches which were well behaved, but the big aggressive ones in Derry and Belfast which were days out for thugs - want me to dig that one out for you or do you intend to just walk away from your own stupidity in contradicting both the facts of violent thuggish triumphalist ones which, according to the PSNI are "going to cause deaths if they are not controlled - and, of course, your own evidence.
Stop distorting the facts of what is happening - you stupid, stupid boy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:22 PM

That was one out of hundreds.
They only wanted to parade.
Why do people so hate for them to just march and play?
And why did they have to change the flag thing?
Triumphalism?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:53 AM

'Peaceful' protests and demonstrations
Have a good march!!
Jim

http://news.ie.msn.com/ireland/police-knocked-unconscious-by-rioters-%E2%80%98wielding-swords-and-missiles%E2%80%99-in-belfast-1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20985521

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 05:27 AM

And, why was it demanded to stop the flag flying on public buildings, as in the Republic and most other places in the world?
Who doubted that extremists would use it to stir up trouble?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 05:24 AM

"These 'peaceful' marches are triumphal demonstrations of 'superiority' and always have been."

That is just a perspective.
There are hundreds of them all over the North that are peaceful joyous events.

Should descendants of those who fought on the British side object to 4th July parades in America?
Of course not.
It is ancient history.

Protestant marching bands are participating in the All Ireland Fleadh this year, delighted that their musical culture is now recognised as such.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 08:18 PM

"It sounds as though things have quieted down over there"
Life seems to be as usual on the planet Zog
50 odd police officers is not "normal" anywhere.
These 'peaceful' marches are triumphal demonstrations of 'superiority' and always have been.
The people who caused the violence are those who organise the marches and demand they go through sensitive (Catholic) areas - never heard of the Glencree standoff?
Many of them, when they are prevented from going through these sensitive areas by the police, deliberately return through them to provoke violence
The Christmas 'Union Jack' demonstrations lasted for months and made the centre of Belfast a no-go area throughout the holiday period.
A large part of my apprenticeship was spent watching men who had been working together happily throughout the year, hurling bricks and bottles at each other to celebrate the Glorious Twelfth - our workplace was directly on the rout of one of your "peaceful rallies and so forth".
seems like only yesterday you had tears in your eyes for what was happening - oh - it was only yeateday
Are you really as unaware of what happens here as you appear to be or do you find it necessary to give the fire another poke in case it goes out - just like the march organisers.
What is it with you?
Jim Carroll