Folklore/History: Irish Famine

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 09:43 AM

Keith, it's all been good, at least since the British Invasion. You don't have gun violence. And now I understand you're putting filters on the internet so that children's first ideas about love and sex are not influenced by filthy pornography. We can't get great stuff like that over here. They would scream bloody murder about their "freedom" and lay everything at the parents feet knowing full well a parent cannot protect their children from these negative influences in today's world. There is no sense of social responsibility, no social contract worth a shit.

And then there's my bestest friend Jimmy, wholly of British descent, best drummer in the entire world. When my bad ankle acts up on me, he's the only one who can fix it. So were it not for the British, i would be hobbling around like a gimp.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 07:02 AM

Yes, more sadness as more of the tragedy unfolds.
And how sad that this thread became an argument.

A second tragedy was that the first was used by politicians and activists to award blame and to foment hatred between peoples and nations.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM

I think we all have to be prepared for many relevations via DNA..many more mass graves or ditches uncovered...many of us will be smitten with names of our own ancestors...

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 02:22 PM

Remember I do not lie Jim.
Kineally,
" Roy Foster, an influential revisionist, in an article optimistically entitled 'We are all revisionists now', pejoratively described Woodham Smith as 'a zealous convert', whilst, in 1964, a question in an undergraduate history examination paper in University College Dublin stated 'The Great Hunger is a great novel. Discuss'."

Mick, yes, that is the unedited first sentence.
Google the text or use the link supplied.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 01:35 PM

Keith, Are you sure that you have quoted the conclusion accurately ?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 01:32 PM

You reall have decided to go down with the sinking
ship

"Woodham Smith's book was derided as "a novel" by the historians of University College Dublin."
"Popular books on the Famine, notably those by Cecil Woodham-Smith and Robert Kee, which have placed suffering at the heart of the Famine, have been derided or dismissed by many within the academic establishment,"

There really is no point in continuing to give a second of the time of day with somebody who lies about something he said less than half a dozen posts earlier - don't call me, I have no intention of calling you.
Over and out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 12:46 PM

Kineally Quote:
"To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine (that means you Jim) in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances. In 1922, for example, the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994)."

"The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable. In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly"

"Conclusion

Revisionism has polarised historical debate in Ireland and has stifled the more theoretical and philosophical approach to history which has developed elsewhere. Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 12:36 PM

I would be extremely grateful if you could produce some evidence of your claims on Woodham Smith, Kee, Coogan

?
I have made no claims about the first two.
I said Coogan had IRA links and fought with his books as his father fought with a gun.
The fraudster was JTT's source from that wacky cult.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 11:19 AM

..being altogether beyond the power of man, the cure had been applied by the direct stroke of an all-wise Providence in a manner as unexpected and as unthought of as it is likely to be effectual.

The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.
Charles Trevelyan, head of administration for famine relief, 1840s

[existing policies] will not kill more than one million Irish in 1848 and that will scarcely be enough to do much good.
- Queen Victoria's economist, Nassau Senior

A Celt will soon be as rare on the banks of the Shannon as the red man on the banks of Manhattan.
- The Times, editorial, 1848

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 11:14 AM

"All wisdom advises us to keep this [Irish] kingdom as much subordinate and dependent on England as possible; and, holding them from manufacture of wool (which unless otherwise directed, I shall by all means discourage), and then enforcing them to fetch their cloth from England, how can they depart from us without nakedness and beggary?"
- Lord Stafford, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in a letter to King Charles I, 1634
But when the Irish quote such historical sources , up go the imperial eyebrows . "There they go again the Irish and their obsession with history. What's the matter with them -why can't they just be nice and try to get on with one another over there?"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 10:53 AM

"I have often said, and written, it is Famine which must consume [the Irish]; our swords and other endeavours work not that speedy effect which is expected for their overthrow."
- English Viceroy Arthur Chichester writing to Elizabeth I's chief advisor, Nov. 1601

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 10:46 AM

"You are not well placed to dismiss her view of contemporary Irish historians."
I most certainly do not "dismiss her view" - I assume we cross-posted and you are not going to ignore what she had to say as you have ignored everything else that does not suit.
All a little academic anyway as Christine Kinealy (correct spelling - so far you've given us three versions Kinealy, Kineally and Kearney, while having the temerity to take me up on the spelling of her name) is one of those who contradict your claims - I don't suppose you would like to comment on what she has to say would you - I thought not!
"You are not, and neither is Cougan."
I assume you mean 'Coogan' - you really are having a bad hair day!
Coogan is neither an IRA supporter or a fraudster as you have described him.
His status in Ireland is unquestioned and the research carried out for his numerous works (see below) makes him every bit a historian as his fellow "revisionist" Christine Kineally.
Your mantra-like repetition of "majorities" and "respected historians" is totally meaningless while you refuse to produce names and quotes.
" have been derided or dismissed by many within the academic establishment,"
I would be extremely grateful if you could produce some evidence of your claims on Woodham Smith, Kee, Coogan - and anybody else who doesn't share your quaint (and as I said, shambolic) view of history.
Again, yours in anticipation
Jim Carroll

Ireland Since the Rising (1966)
The I.R.A. (1970) - revised 1995, 2002
The Irish: a personal view (1975)
On the Blanket: the H Block story (1980)
Ireland and the Arts (1986)
Disillusioned Decades: Ireland 1966-87 (1987)
Michael Collins: a biography (1990) - published in the U.S. as 'The Man Who Made Ireland'
Eamon De Valera: Long Fellow, Long Shadow (1993) - published in the U.S. as 'The Man Who Was Ireland'
The Troubles: Ireland's ordeal and the Search for Peace (1995)
The Irish Civil War - with George Morrison (1998)
Wherever Green is Worn: the Story of the Irish Diaspora (2000)
1916: the Easter Rising (2001)
Ireland in the Twentieth Century (2003)
A Memoir (2008)
The Famine Plot: England's Role in Ireland's Greatest Tragedy (2012)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 09:25 AM

No - you joined to absolve Britain from blame

Not true.
I said I knew nothing but supplied 3 short quotes providing a glimpse of the alternative view.
That should be welcomed by any fair minded person.

She is a historian, a doctorate in History from Trinity College Dublin and author of "numerous scholarly articles" beside her 16 books on Irish history.
We have seen she is published in "History Ireland."
Cougan never has been and never will.

You are not well placed to dismiss her view of contemporary Irish historians.
She is one.
You are not, and neither is Cougan.
Dominantly revisionist since 1930 she stated.
She should know.

Woodham Smith's book was derided as "a novel" by the historians of University College Dublin.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 09:06 AM

Don't bother with that link Keith - I found her and she seems to have taken a line that you have described as 80 years out-of-date - a republican revisionist maybe.

"In many ways the Famine represented not so much a natural disaster, but, as Dr. Kinealy argues, a failure of imagination and a failure of compassion. It left a legacy of bitterness and despair. One hundred and fifty years later, it is clear that these wounds are ones which have healed. The fact that we can have an occasion such as this surely demonstrates that there is a maturity and openness in relations between Britain and Ireland. The process of recalling the detail of what happened is not to reopen old wounds. Far from it. It is to help us better to understand and respond to the world of today. As such I believe it is welcome, it is healthy and it gives us great hope for the future."

Kineally Quote:
"Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain."
http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/knealy.html

"Plenty of google hits if you get the spelling right Jim!"
cut-t-'n-pasted your spelling of the name Keith
"Kealing knows more than either of us." (28 Jul 13 - 04:24 AM)
Not really your day, is it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 08:48 AM

"Jim, When I joined this thread, only the nationalist version had been given and at some length."
No - you joined to absolve Britain from blame - you have been shown how you have framed your arguments, you have not attempted to "debate" this issue, but have dismissed the argument of others out of hand as "republican" and 80 years "out-of-date"
You have left no room whatever for argument
You have even resorted to lying about historians who put a contrary view, and you have no intention whatever of justifying or withdrawing those lies.
You have failed to, and will not in future produced one single "qualified historian" of the "majority" you claim to exist, and you have refused to respond to documented facts (often by the people concerned at the time) which prove beyond doubt that the outcome of the famine was entirely due to wilful mismanagement inspired by a contempt for the Irish beyond their being able to fulfil their role as "England's breadbasket".
Your argument, what there is of it, is both shambolic and grossly dishonest - the worst example of manipulating history to suit a personal agenda I have ever come across.
"Professor Christine Kinealy is a highly regarded writer and lecturer"
Not a historian then, so we can't add her to your elusive-enough to be non-existent list of "qualified historians"?
I don't suppose you could supply us with a link to her so we can decide if she "knows more than either of us" - or is that something else you made up on the spot.
Now about Tim Pat Coogan.... or is that something else to refer back to in future arguments?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 08:33 AM

Christine Kinealy in the same piece published in History Ireland.

"Popular books on the Famine, notably those by Cecil Woodham-Smith and Robert Kee, which have placed suffering at the heart of the Famine, have been derided or dismissed by many within the academic establishment, although not, it has to be said, by the general reading public. The Great Hunger by Woodham Smith has sold almost sixty thousand hard back copies, making it the best-selling Irish history book of all time. Irish academics, with the honourable exception of Cormac Ó Gráda, have been less enthusiastic. Roy Foster, an influential revisionist, in an article optimistically entitled 'We are all revisionists now', pejoratively described Woodham Smith as 'a zealous convert', whilst, in 1964, a question in an undergraduate history examination paper in University College Dublin stated 'The Great Hunger is a great novel. Discuss'."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:35 AM

Plenty of google hits if you get the spelling right Jim!

Irish America.
Christine Kinealy

Professor Christine Kinealy is a highly regarded writer and lecturer. In 1984, she earned her Ph.D. from Trinity College, Dublin, writing on the introduction of the Poor Law in Ireland. Kinealy has written extensively about the Great Hunger and its impact, most notably in her book This Great Calamity: The Irish Famine 1845-52, and has spoken to both the US Congress and British Parliament on the Famine. In addition to the Great Hunger, her topics include nineteenth century Ireland, the revolutions of 1848, Daniel O'Connell, and Irish-American nationalism and memory and commemoration in Irish history. Since September 2007, Kinealy has been a tenured professor at Drew University's Caspersen Graduate School in Madison, NJ. She has written over 16 books on Irish and Irish-American history and numerous scholarly articles.

Kinealy was born and raised in Liverpool by her father from Co. Tipperary and her mother, whose family was from Co. Mayo. She has two children: Siobhán, who was born in Dublin, and Ciarán, who was born in Belfast.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:26 AM

Jim, When I joined this thread, only the nationalist version had been given and at some length.
Any fair minded person would want both versions put.
(Was that an amen Mick?)

I did give just 3 short quotes, one from a page giving both versions.

It was Grumpy who provided the link to Kearney.
You were so pleased and impressed you called him your "bro'"

I just quoted that one passage that said revisionism had been dominant for eighty years.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:53 AM

Keith, what fact in that article are you disputing? Are the quotes attributed to Trevelyn and others incorrect? Look, I'm not holding you directly responsible. Collective guilt only goes so far. I'm a white American and I never enslaved anybody. But I have a responsibility to be aware of what happened and to make sure that I don't have any part of a way of thinking that made slavery possible.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:35 AM

"Kealing knows more than either of us."
She certainly knows how to keep her head down her name appears on no list of historians I can lay hands on, nor does she Google
Perhaps you will have better luck than I have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:30 AM

"I just thought that both views should be aired in any reasonable discussion."
No you didn't - you've argued that the facts you disagree with are "republican", outdated by 80 years and totally rejected by the majority of modern historians - no room for reasonable discussion there - nothing to disagree with - these are definitive statements on your part.
You have even gone to the extent of lying about the political sympathies of one historian -
You don't do, nor have ever done "reasonable discussion"
"So I gave just 3 short quotes."
The majority of "prominent historians" I take it, even though oner of them is an economist (and another of your "names" is an archeologist)
"Coogan and the cult fraudster are not historians."
Yes he is - he is regarded as the leading expert on modern Irish history - WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE HE IS A FRAUDSTER - HE WAS ONLY AN IRA SUPPORTER LAST TIME?
"No. That is the finding of most modern historians."
Who are these "modern historians" and what do they say?
"I have nothing to add, and am no expert."
No you certainly are not - it is you who is the "fraudster".
I awaiot your proof to any single statement you have made - not only have you nothing to add, you havce said nothing at all so far.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 04:24 AM

You have attempted to divide opinions on the Famine between "Revisionists" who blame the British and whose history is "80 years out-of-date" and the majority of modern historians who have claimed the old version to be false.
Not true Jim.
I just thought that both views should be aired in any reasonable discussion.
Do you disagree?
So I gave just 3 short quotes.
One of my links was to a balanced consideration of both views.
What do you object to?

Grumpy linked to a piece by Christine Keneally, who wrote
"Conclusion
Revisionism has polarised historical debate in Ireland and has stifled the more theoretical and philosophical approach to history which has developed elsewhere. Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."
that directly contradicts your statement, "Both of their conclusions fly in the face of the findings of most modern historians on the question of who was to blame."

No. That is the finding of most modern historians.
Coogan and the cult fraudster are not historians.

Kealing knows more than either of us.
You reject her conclusion.
OK.
I have nothing to add, and am no expert.
The real experts do not support you.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 03:20 AM

"All proper historians."
Your "historians" boil down to a couple (two) statements from one obscure English economist - not historian (Dr Stephen Davies) who disputes without proof that British policy was not the cause of the outcome of the famine (without accompanying proof) and William D. Rubinstein, a historian at Aberyswyth whose subjects range from Shakespeare's authorship, the assassination of Kennedy, Jack the Ripper and Jewish History - neither are in any way experts in Irish history, "prominent" or otherwise.
Both of their conclusions fly in the face of the findings of most modern historians on the question of who was to blame.
"I quoted Robert Nielson"
Nielsen's quote was a blog from a discussion on Tim Pat Coogan's 'Famine Plot' which is contradicted by other contributors.
You have attempted to divide opinions on the Famine between "Revisionists" who blame the British and whose history is "80 years out-of-date" and the majority of modern historians who have claimed the old version to be false. This is a total distortion of the situation, and the only way you have been able to make this claim is by deliberately ignoring the facts, both contemporary to the famine (including Trevelyan's "God's punishment" statement) and modern conclusions.
You have deliberately slandered one of Ireland's foremost experts on modern Irish history and you now refuse to even refer to that fact, let alone dignify it with proof.
This is agenda-driven revisionism at its worst.
Since the 70s there has been a revival of interest in the famine - Robert Kee's damning chapter being one of the first - you refuse even to comment on that one (from a British historian).
The 150th anniversary produced a major revisit to the events with more than a dozen works on the subject - including an apology from the Prime Minister for the Britain's culpability for the outcome (something else you have chosen not to comment on).
I must admit, I have always baulked at the descriptions of "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" until I read bits of Coogan's 'Famine Plot' - I understand that a prominent theme in the book is an examination of the United Nations definition of those terms and it's relevance to the Irish events - I look forward with interest to receiving my copy next week.
Can we now have examples of your "prominent historians", a qualification of your Coogan smear, and some comment on the evictions, the laissez-faire policy that brought about so many deaths, and maybe even a word on how somebody who, by his own admission, believed the famine was "God's punishment on evildoers" could possibly have been put in charge of distributing famine relief, by a Government who had Ireland's welfare at heart!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 06:51 PM

Keith A, if it's me you're talking to about four days of frantic Googling, nope. I'd forgotten about this thread, indeed about Mudcat, then came across the interesting (because of its many contemporary quotes) article from the Schiller Institute.

If those contemporary voices can't reach your ears, mine certainly won't. Thank you for your time and courteous attention.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:47 PM

on 15th July 10.04 I gave an extract from Dr. Stephen Davies. His piece gave these sources,
•David George Boyce and Alan O'Day, eds., The Making of Modern Irish History: Revisionism and the Revisionist Controversy (London: Routledge, 1996). See also Joel Mokyr, Why Ireland Starved: A Quantitative and Analytical History of the Irish Economy, 1800–1850 (London: Unwin Hyman, 1983).
• Cecil Woodham-Smith, The Great Hunger: Ireland 1845–1849 (New York: Harper Row, 1962).
• William D. Rubinstein, Britain's Century: A Political and Social History 1815–1905 (London: Arnold, 1998), p. 90.
• S. J Connolly, ed., The Oxford Companion to Irish History (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1998), p. 438.


Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2aH9yK9o7

On 15 Jul 13 - 04:45 PM I quoted Robert Nielson.

On 16 Jul 13 - 06:17 AM

The revisionist response & interpretation: from the foreword to The Great Famine
R. Dudley Edwards & T. Desmond Williams (eds.), The Great Famine: Studies in Irish History 1845-52, 1956

On 17th July Guest grumpy linked to Christine Keneally, whose piece supported the revisionist view.

On 19th july JTT linked to "a short piece" also revisionist.

All proper historians.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 02:14 PM

Amen, Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:41 AM

"And all the actual, professional historians are wrong and have been for eighty plus years."
You have yet to produce one single "professional historian" or a quote from one to back up your claims - not one.
"Jim alone has thrown in "liar" with all his other wild accusations."
Claiming to have the backing of "professional historians" and then failing to produce either the name of one or a quote from one is to LIE.
To claim that no evidence here apart from your own is to lie.
Accusing a respected "professional historian" of being a supporter of the IRA can, at a stretch, be called a mistake.
Refusing to either substantiate that claim or respond to requests that you should do so is to lie.
To refuse to provide proof or withdraw that accusation is to lie.
To lie in public is to be a very stupid liar.
"the nationalist view"
The earlier historians, British and Irish, tended to describe the famine without apportioning blame.
The first British historian to firmly place the blame on the Government policy of placing commercial interests above the lives of the population, was Robert Kee in his book, 'Ireland, a History' which accompanied his television series of the same name broadcast during the 1970s 'Troubles'.
The most comprehensive coverage of British policy during the famine was from The Great Famine, Ireland's potato famine 1845 -51 by British documentary producer and historian John Percival, published on the 150th anniversary.
To claim that nobody has produced evidence to contradict your claims is a lie - if you wish to contradict this I am happy to re-post every single link, along with quotes - all of which you have so far, totally ignored.
To continue to claim the existence of 'professional historians' who absolve Britain from their behavior without being prepared to name those historians is to lie.
Please name your "actual Irish historians" and their quotes - with links please - to fail to do so is to lie.
Yours in anticipation
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 09:28 AM

After 4 days frantic Googling, you found nothing to support the nationalist view except something by someone famous only for doing time for fraud in Virginia, and published by his wacko cult.

What is wrong with the actual Irish historians who have devoted their lives to researching Irish history in Irish universities and lecturing to Irish history students?

Their findings do not support your prejudice.
Historical truth has no value to a prejudiced bigot.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 07:55 AM

Extracts from Wiki on Schiller Institute.


In March 2009, the Danish branch of the institute distributed flyers at a climate change conference in Copenhagen which asserted that 'British Climate lies will lead to Genocide', stating that the Bush administration had been a puppet of the British Empire, that "solar activity, not human activity, is the main factor in the Earth's changing climate," and that "massive investment in windmills and solar panels" to combat climate change would create genocide by raising the price of food.

In 1988, the institute initiated a campaign to establish "philosophical pitch" or "scientific pitch" as the classical music concert pitch standard.[21] This tuning system is based on middle C set at 256 Hz, making concert A 430.539 Hz rather than the most commonly used 440 Hz. The Schiller Institute calls this system "Verdi tuning" because it was Italian composer Giuseppe Verdi who first sought to stop the increase in pitch to which orchestras are tuned.[22] However, Verdi used the French standard 435 Hz in writing his Requiem in 1874; later he indicated that 432 Hz was slightly more optimal.[23] It is this 432 Hz standard that the Schiller Institute advocates. French acoustic physicist Joseph Sauveur first researched then proposed the philosophical pitch standard in 1713, more than a century before Verdi began leading orchestras. Sauveur was strongly resisted by the musicians he was working with, and the proposed standard was not adopted.[24]

Institute followers are reported by Tim Page of Newsday to have stood outside concert halls with petitions to ban the music of Vivaldi and even to have disrupted a concert conducted by Leonard Slatkin in order to pass out pamphlets titled "Leonard Slatkin Serves Satan."
Cult allegations[edit]
The institute is alleged by the (London) Metropolitan Police and critics to be a cult.[34][35][36][37][38] According to the Berliner Zeitung, the LaRouche movement in Germany, operating as the Schiller Institute, LaRouche Youth Movement, Europäische Arbeiterpartei and Bürgerrechtsbewegung Solidarität (BüSo), has around 300 followers, and "next to Scientology, is the cult soliciting most aggressively in German streets at this time."[36]
The BBC's Newsnight has said the institute places members under "psychological duress," during "so-called psycho sessions."[32] Aglaja Beyes Corleis, a member of the Schiller Institute for 16 years, who left in the early 90s and wrote a book about the Institute,[39] told the BBC:
When I speak with family members how I was then at that time, [they] tell me 'You were like from a different planet.' ... People tend to be drawn into it who did not want to be drawn into it, who did not want to join a cult or a sect or something like that ... I was freaked out and I experienced that other people freaked out. I saw other people who, members who, got out of their mind ... Sometimes Jewish members were put under special pressure. For instance, at a public meeting, the person was picked out and publicly attacked – 'your mother visited Israel'."[32]
Death of Jeremiah Duggan[edit]
Main article: Jeremiah Duggan
On November 6, 2003, a British inquest heard allegations that the Schiller Institute is a "political cult with sinister and dangerous connections,"[37][38] which may have used controversial recruitment techniques on Jeremiah Duggan, a 22-year-old British-Jewish student who died in March 2003 in disputed circumstances.[40]

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 06:39 AM

Sample paragraph from that piece, by the way:

In January 1847, the British government smashed Circular #38, which the Irish Board of Public Works had issued, allowing "family task work" under a sensible emergency proposal of some large farmers. It would have paid farm families wages to work their own land, and more wages for also working on drainage projects. ``It is quite impossible," wrote Trevelyan, ``for my lords to give their sanction to parties being paid by public funds for the cultivation of their own land." That same month, Colonel Routh reported on Ireland's poorest county, Skibereen, that 50,000 pounds rent had been paid in 1846; there were only 12 landowners, all British lords and knights. The government also defeated a proposal of Lord George Bentinck in Parliament, for a railroad building act in Ireland funded by the British Treasury.

==

(Skibbereen isn't a county, of course, it's a town - very prosperous and chichi during the Celtic Tiger, but completely emptied of population during the Famine; a catch-cry of the succeeding revolutionary years was "Remember Skibbereen!"

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 05:47 AM

Interesting article on the Famine, with many contemporary quotes.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:01 PM

"doesn't mean he doesn't know his shit. And as long as you keep on whitewashing the truth, I'm sure you'll never hear the multi-colored end of it"

I agree you must look at the multi-coloured end of it. That means don't just white wash events or in fact don't just blacken events. Of the historians I have quoted one was born of an Irish family in Scotland whilst the other was born to an Irish family in Dublin and was brought up and educated there. Both studied and are qualified in both Irish and British history to the highest level! Presumably they know their shit too! Conoe Cruise O'Brien was just one of those to critiqe Foster's work. "A magnificent book. It supercedes all other accounts of modern Irish history".

If it is going to be dismissed as whitewashing then you really have to come up with some argument other than existing ingrained feeling and the idea that some bloke on the net probably knows his shit!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 09:59 AM

I'm inclined to accept Jim Carroll's version of events. Just because he's an ornery son of a bitch, doesn't mean he doesn't know his shit.
And all the actual, professional historians are wrong and have been for eighty plus years.

You believe what you believe because of your prejudice.
The historical truth must not get in the way.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 09:32 AM

Oh dear.

One of our local WWII heroes just passed away and a friend of mine who had spent time with Frank, corresponded with him and reported on his war experiences, specifically Frank's involvement in liberating Dachau, wrote this:

"Imagination cannot conjure the awful scenes Frank Brechue witnessed at one of history's blackest spots. "I'm not an overly religious man" he wrote, but "Lord we ask you- hear our prayer." All were brought to their knees as they wandered Dachau."

So the question I would ask is, if the Germans had won the war, do you think the real truth about what happened there would have ever gotten out? I think not. The Germans were compelled to admit the truth because they lost. If you don't lose, you don't have to admit anything.

In regard to the genocide perpetrated by the Soviet government, it was actually a Welsh journalist named Gareth Jones who first broke that story. He went there and witnessed it with his own eyes and reported truthfully what he saw. He later turned up dead under suspicious circumstances at the young age of 30.

Listening to you guys, I begin to wonder if this British person I mentioned was just catering to my "perception" of things. Maybe he doesn't really believe it himself. Wouldn't surprise me. In any case, I'm inclined to accept Jim Carroll's version of events. Just because he's an ornery son of a bitch, doesn't mean he doesn't know his shit. And as long as you keep on whitewashing the truth, I'm sure you'll never hear the multi-colored end of it.

And it's not over here in the US either. It seems to me that the majority of US citizens are of the opinion that Native Americans should be stripped of the last vestiges of their rights under treaty. Yesterday it was fur, today it's tobacco and casinos. They won't stop until they have broken every treaty they ever made and taken every last thing from them. They use the word "equality" to make their point that Native Americans should hold no economic advantage over them. It's so sad too because most of them are so poor already. Have you ever seen a census report? They are such a tiny minority now, they barely exist. An entire race of people very nearly wiped out. Clearance.

http://www.writingriffs.com/2012/11/logans-lamen/

Chief Logan's tomb is inscribed with those words, in Fort Hill Cemetery, practically in my backyard, and not far from William Seward's. The life of Chief Logan, a very sad tale indeed.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 03:02 AM

My opinion is worthless, and I always admitted being no expert.
I think we should heed the real historians?
That is my whole case.

E.g. R F Foster.
They tried but failed, guilty only of not being up to the task.
Like New Orleans.
Like the Dustbowl.
etc.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 03:01 AM

"A British person recently said to me that he feels genuinely bad about what the Celts went through at the hands of the British"

I'm not quite sure who he would mean by "British" and who he would mean by "Celts". Surely many Celts are British? There is a tendancy amongst some to play the victim and vehemently blame the English for everything. I had one American Scot on soc.culture.scottish who blamed the English for the Massacre of Culloden and he got quite upset and abusive when I pointed out that they weren't really involved much. The plot was hatched and carried out by reprsentatives of the pre-union Scottish government. His come back was that King William had signed the papers and was King of England hence the English were to blame. It was an absurd claim. William was Dutch and was also King of Scotland and King of Ireland. Hence it would make as much sense to blame the Irish. The papers were put to him by the Scottish gvt and he signed as monarch of Scotland. There is just not much way to made in debating with people with such ingrained illogical opinions though!

Besides why he was getting so wound up about it perplexed me. It was centuries ago and both sides (ie within scotland) were as bad as each other anyway.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:47 AM

SJL is right in that people should be able to have different opinions without insulting each other. Anyway surely there is a middle ground here? Keith may be going too far by claiming 'no-one was to blame' but his assertion that it was not a genocide (surely a genocide would need to be a deliberate act where the intent was to kill as many people as possible) is not unsupported by some Irish historians. Some popular opinion in Ireland and among Irish Americans may feel it was so but that in itself doesn't make it so. Just because one opinion is shouted the loudest it doesn't make it more valid.

In his Modern Ireland 1600-1972 R.F.Foster (who is a highly qualified Irish historian) confirms that the gvt purchased food for distribution, removed tarrifs and organised public works as early as 1845-86 but goes on to explain that they underestimated the sheer scale of what was happening. Their response was based on previous famines which simply were not of the same scale. He defends the gvt not banning the export of grain on the basis that they did not at that time have the power to do so and anwyay by 1847 he claims Ireland was importing 5 times as much as it was exporting. He defends the importation of Indian meal as being well known to the Irish already (despite claims to the contrary) and again it having been resorted to in previous famines. That does not mean he lays no blame at anyone's door. He points out that the clinging to laissez faire economics and the 'obsession' with the idea that people shouldn't get something for nothing severely hindered the relief. Public works were not abandoned in favour of direct relief until 1847. Likewise he lays blame within Ireland itself and not just at Westminster. He points out that in Scotland the landlords in general tried to feed their tenants which did not happen to the same extent in Ireland. Likewsie eventually the gvt recognised that certain areas were in dire need of assistance and from early on meal was sold directly to the people in the south-west and west however many starved through bureaucracy. A special rate-in-aid was to be levied from 1849 in areas less affected to help areas badly affected. This was violently opposed in Eastern Ulster. Foster writes "again and again the variation is striking; and inability to recognize the severity of the visitation was not confined to the Dublin administrative classes"

So it seems there is a range of opinion from Keith's "no one was to blame" to the middle ground of Foster's "gvt mistakes, incompetence and sheer rigid sticking to idealogy exacerbated the problem" through to the more extreme "they did it deliberately".

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 12:52 AM

You're right Keith. According to Jim you are a liar and a racist. It's just that when Jim gets challenged on a topic that is very important to him and he's done his research, he gets upset. I believe as well that the British had a profound contempt for the Irish and that the famine qualifies as genocide. That doesn't mean I would hold any Brit personally responsible or that I want to have a hate fest. On the contrary, truth is essential to the healing process. It leads to reconciliation. A British person recently said to me that he feels genuinely bad about what the Celts went through at the hands of the British. A few kind words like that can go a long way.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 12:12 PM

Stop calling one another liar

Jim alone has thrown in "liar" with all his other wild accusations.
I agree with you that it is not helpful.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 11:24 AM

Stop calling one another liar. There are no liars around here. Just people who don't share the same point of view from time to time.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 07:47 AM

Speaking of family, everybody needs to see this:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3624840?utm_hp_ref=tw

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 05:21 AM

Leaving all that aside, I am sorry for your loss.
keith.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 04:17 AM

"us" is not a racist term, and nor is anything else I have ever said.
"Racist" is just what you call me whenever you are losing an argument.
There is no "researched evidence" that "Britain is a deeply racist country" and it is not.

Cougan has an anti-British agenda, and he uses the famine to stir up hatred.
Historians are clear that there is no-one to blame for the famine.

I dared to say that the nationalist version is not universally accepted, and your reaction has been near hysterical.
Pages and pages of multicoloured text and wild accusations.
What does that say about you Jim?
Rational?
Fair?
Unbiased/
Unprejudiced?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:57 AM

A national people IS NOT A SOCIAL CLASS and even if you are right, then it bloody well should include anybody on that scale or there should be an equivalent word for it - you seem to have fallen back on semantics do defend all this shit.
Anyway - England awaits; I have the funeral of a loved one to attend (one of Keith's "YOU").
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:48 AM

My understanding of the UN definition of genocide specifically excludes actions against a social class/-rightly or wrongly,

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 07:31 PM

"Jim, I just do not lie, and neither am I racist."
Yes you do and yes you are
Ask any Anglo Irish man or woman how he/she feels about being referred to as "you and us".
Ask any male Pakistani how he feels about being told his "cultural implant" which he has to "resist" makes him prone to "underage sex".
Your total failure to either qualify or withdraw both your pseudo historical arguments and your totally unwarranted attacks on a respected historian in order to make your case makes you openly dishonest.
You are without a doubt one of the most unpleasantly dishonest individuals I have ever encountered and your inability to either justify or withdraw your claims in order not to lose face makes you a sad - sad little man.
"Calling US "a deeply racist country...."
And yet another "you and us" example of your racism.
Now we really are done here - you reall have overdosed on penalty points for future reference here!
"Keith, Jim doesn't hate anybody."
See above - I don't know who you are mystery guest, but it wouldn't be the first time Keith has fake posted support for himself - he was reprimanded by them upstairs last time.
"Not only is action against a social class not considered genocide"
Actions that allow one million people of one nation to die of starvation and fever, and drive three timesd that number away from their country is well within the boundaries of both ethnic cleasing" and "genocide" in anybody's dictionary if that is what happened.
I will wait till I read Coogan's arguments in fill before I make up my mind.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:12 PM

"Then why did you abandon her
The reason to me tell."

Jim, I just do not lie, and neither am I racist.
On this forum, you never mention Britain or England but to curse them.
Calling us "a deeply racist country" is a clearly hateful statement, and typical of your sentiments.
You choose to deny it.
Fine.

I am done with this.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:53 PM

GUEST, I'm thinking about what you just said. Not only is action against a social class not considered genocide, the wounds are much deeper. Better my neighbor should abuse me, not someone in my own family.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:43 PM

Keith, Jim doesn't hate anybody. I would think you'd know that by now. Just calls them as he sees them.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:35 PM

Action against a social class is not classified as genocide, no matter how horrific the result.