BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 05:21 PM

I also agree with Eliza.

Thus, we learn.

However, it's a lot more likely that I'll consider someone else's view of things if they can express them without calling me a stupid ass for holding the views I hold.

That's rather poor salesmanship.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 05:03 PM

Two quick comments.

1. I agree with Eliza's last post. I've had very similar experiences.

2. Sorry to Don T by 'misrepresenting him' by calling him Don Z.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:58 PM

Yep. Very tiresome. I hope you're not ignoring me. I've just agreed with you at least three times.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:55 PM

Quite an important question might be, 'Is it possible for someone to change their viewpoint gradually over time by considering a different angle expressed by another person?' One might think not, but personally I've changed many of my opinions quite a bit over the decades after listening to other ideas and mulling them over. You may think a poster is 'dyed in the wood', but actually, they may be thinking about what's been said and modifying their standpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: GUEST,Musket shaking his head
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:54 PM

I don't need lessons in debate. I don't need lessons in diversity.

If anyone thinks that it is good for society for such views put on the same level as choice of musical taste, I start to agree with the law we have in The UK regarding hate crime.

I just cannot believe that someone who wishes to criminalise lifestyle, compulsory testing and restricting their right to happiness can be seen as "having a view." Having spent years interviewing prisoners and people sectioned under The Mental Health Act, including the forensic end of the market, there are plenty of "views" around. Society has ways of protecting people from many of them. Fascism isn't fought with respecting views,it is fought by giving no quarter. If that seems ironic, then welcome to reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:46 PM

The people who misrepresent what you say understand perfectly well what you said... The problem is that it doesn't fir their narrative so they take your words and twist them into a pretzel and then debate the pretzel... But make no mistake about it, it's 99% on them 99% of the time...

Poster A says, "I think slavery was wrong"...

Pretzel Twister Poster B responds, "Poster A doesn't seem to mind that so many people only earn the minimum wage... Poster A thinks as long as they are getting paid it's not slavery? What is wrong with you, Poster A?"...

And on and on and on it goes...

The one member here who I am ignoring has pulled this on me at least 100 times over the years...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:42 PM

Well, several viewpoints are expressed here that I would cheerfully include as unworthy of respect. That gay people should be hounded into "changing their behaviour". That evolution is a lie. That the attitude towards people who insist on propagating religious faith to children should be "live and let live". That it's OK to go round everywhere with a lethal weapon in your pocket. That we should deny women the right to abortion. These are antediluvian standpoints that are worthy only of being shot down. Every one of them involves complete lack of respect for anyone on the receiving end. Yet we're supposed to respect the people who put these views forward, are we?

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:34 PM

Musket, you should ask yourself whether your approach is doing any good. From what I can see, not much: those you castigate entrench themselves further to save face and fling bombs of their own, while the rest of us run and hide. Further, I gather that you are engaged in a struggle against hate; I would suggest that the campaign you are waging here is as likely to succeed as the original crusades: i.e., not.

There is no point in "debating" points of faith or ideology with its adherents; logic has little if anything to do with belief. Every single protracted wrangle on Mudcat, from gun-control to the nature and quality of folk music, arises at least in part from this error.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:25 PM

Musket, who decides whether views are 'different to yours' or, alternatively, 'have no place in 21st century society'? Surely it's a matter of opinion, and that's where the problem lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:22 PM

Don Z: Thanks for those tips about finding my old posts. I didn't know about that method about finding one's posts.   

Unfortunately I still can't find the post.....and I even did a search under my 'guest' name.   So it must've been in a thread that 'drifted', or possibly, when my cookies were down, I didn't sign my name.

Sorry about that Don Firth.

But I'll keep searching.

-Larry.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: GUEST,Musket putting line in sand
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:20 PM

Charmion. The problem with going through the motions of respect is that people are led to think you respect views that are patently not worthy of it. And that would never do.

Akenaton for instance has views regarding gay people that is despicable and quite frankly tantamount to personality disorder. Add his awful spewing out about Eastern Europeans in his area and you have to ask yourself, "do I feel dirty by conversing with such a specimen?"

No consensus on behaviour on Mudcat is going to convince me to do anything other than challenging hatred. I refuse to meet it halfway and I refuse to offer it anything that would be construed as respectability.

Views that are different to mine? Sure! Lets debate. Views that have no place in 21st century society? Kick them back into their pit and let them fester.

Just because we try to debate nicely where we can, it doesn't mean you have to smile when confronted with bigotry and hatred of people based on their labels.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 04:15 PM

Yes, I find it annoying too.....and it's a fact of life. Because nobody can totally read my mind, and all forms of communication are 'imperfect' means of portraying our reality, misrepresentation is inevitable.

Very true, Larry. But I put a lot of effort into expressing myself simply and clearly. Much of the misrepresentation here is quite deliberate, for the reasons Bobert gave. I can and do put up with facts of life. In fact, I don't think I'm too bad at keeping my cool here.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 03:56 PM

You would do us all a favour, Richard, if you would nevertheless go through the motions of respect, especially when you don't feel the need.

The prime function of courtesy is to make one's passage through life easier for other people to endure.

When two or more contributors to a thread drop their gloves on the ice and start whaling away at each other, I bail out and never return to that thread. (Is that a fine mixture of metaphors or what?) Reading an exchange of insults, accusations and spiteful rejoinders among Mudcat members distresses me almost as much as witnessing a family fight at the dinner table -- and I'm sure I'm not alone, or even unusual. I just can't stand it.

Some people claim that a permanently polite approach to dispute is insincere, that whatever point they are taking issue with has made them angry and it is only honest to express that anger. I believe that this position is disingenuous, mere cover for a childish delight in savaging a despised opponent.

Whatever the reason for it, an on-line brawl clears the notional room just as surely as a bar fight in real life.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 03:52 PM

"It's annoying to spend time correcting misrepresentation and it happens a lot. I'd rather be called names than misrepresented"

Yes, I find it annoying too.....and it's a fact of life. Because nobody can totally read my mind, and all forms of communication are 'imperfect' means of portraying our reality, misrepresentation is inevitable.

And I find that so much frustration is the result of trying to correct this.   I've found the more I try to correct it, the more fodder I leave for even more misinterpretation and misrepresentation.

So I ask myself......"is this the mountain I want to die on"? Or "in 5 years time is this really going to matter"?

My challenge....and I feel I have some success in meeting this.....is to just keep representing myself the best way I can. And, hopefully, more people will also start representing me that way I'd like them to.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 03:30 PM

Richard....you make statements about people here which are patently untrue, when they call you on them, you vanish into the ether then turn up again saying there are "lots of people here that you dont respect"

Well i suspect few here respect someone who uses these tactics.
Try being a man, not a mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 03:15 PM

There are plenty of people I feel no need to respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 02:41 PM

Re:   Bobert's post of 30 Jul 13 - 01:22 PM, just above.

I agree totally!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 02:05 PM

Also, when people make up stuff that they claim other people have said and then argue with the made up stuff it gets pretty old fast... Plus, it is dishonest...

This is the biggest crime here in my opinion. It's annoying to spend time correcting misrepresentation and it happens a lot. I'd rather be called names than misrepresented. If you ever get that feeling that you need to type "just read my post, will you..." you'll know what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 01:32 PM

Thanks Larry :0).....Its easy if "ye jist keep the heid"... as we say in Scotland!

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 01:29 PM

Bobert, I disagree. Not respectfully. Your opinions are my own, and now your claiming them as yours.

Sir, my friends would call upon you but I don't have any.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 01:22 PM

I'd like to see a lot less cut 'n pastes... They rarely add to an discussion... Some folks just string half a dozen of them together... Most are blogs that cannot be readily fact checked without having extra hours every day to do so... I think that limiting them to either links or using a single paragraph of them would be a vast improvement...

CAPS is a no, no... Every knows it yet some folks continue to SCREAM at others...

Also, when people make up stuff that they claim other people have said and then argue with the made up stuff it gets pretty old fast... Plus, it is dishonest...

Also, if I present an position and you challenge me on it, fine... If in my response I ask direct questions to someone who has challenged me and they refuse to answer them then that is also dishonest...

Also, there are people here who aren't even musicians who come here just to rile people up and they are very good at it...

Lastly, if you challenge me, fine... Allow me the time to respond before adding another half a dozen challenges... Some people have real lives other than sitting in front of a computer all day... I know I do... I work outside at least 7 hours a day... Sometimes more... Lots of us work and don't have hours and hours to plow thru those stacked up challenges...

Oh, and lastly, part 2... If you have OCD and locked in on another poster, get help for your addiction... I've had several stalkers here... One stalked me from another web site... I complained to Joe Offer... I still have at least one OCD-er here that I am ignoring because he is not rational... Hey, stalkers... Get help...

That's about it... Now back to work...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 01:03 PM

""I have no idea how I would even find the post....I don't even remember the topic. I'll try look for it, though, because I'm kind of curious too, as it made quite the impression on me. Larry""

I think you said it was early in your time on Mudcat Larry.

OK.

Top of the page, click on personal page, and then activate the link "click for list of your personal thread messages".

This gives you everything you have ever posted in batches. At the bottom of the page there is box which says "posts starting with oldest"

Click on that, then run down the resulting list till you see a music thread and check it. It shouldn't take forever to find the one you want.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 12:30 PM

...in your heart do you not think that as a species, we have forgotten much more of real value than we will ever learn through science and technology?

Ah, the myth of the Golden Age... No I don't. And I also think that science gets us closer to truth, along with art. Though we do seem to have forgotten how to write a good symphony.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 12:25 PM

""I think it's a skill. And I guess not everybody on mudcat is interested in learning it. But.......I do think it's wise to know your own intention.   Is it verbal masturbation? Pissing people off? Letting the world know how amazing you are?   Convincing people that your right and decent take on things really is right and decent? To help others who are asking for help? Or to feel/demonstrate a 'connection' with others in the mudcat community?""

The simple answer to that Larry, is that it is all of the above.

Since one encounters a range of differing personas, with differing perspectives and intentions, your (entirely desireable) wish to interact with them all in the same cordial, helpful and well mannered, though rather bland way, is unlikely to elicit the responses you expect.

In a melting pot of mixed cultures, it is necessary to be aware of that variety, and treat each person as an individual, though that may mean steeling yourself to call somebody a fool, if that is what you honestly believe him to be.

Racist or xenophobic posts do indicate strongly the presence of a racist or xenophobe at that particular keyboard, and deserve strong condemnation

A learned, measured and well constructed argument needs to be answered in kind.

There is nobody on this forum who engenders in me, feelings of hatred.

There are many, some of whose attitudes I deplore, detest, or otherwise find unpleasant.

There are a few that I would never be likely to call friend, and many that might, in the real world be good singing and drinking buddies.

There are a few whom I already number among my friends, and some of those I disagree with on certain subjects.

How could I possibly treat all of the above in exactly the same way?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 12:03 PM

Bah, "emotioning" isn't a word. I meant "emoting"...

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 11:52 AM

""Moderation Team"- I see little evidence that one exists. If one does, it should have clearly stated rules.""

The thing about that Q, is that most people came here to get away from fora such as Auntie Beeb's various offerings, in which you could barely say "NO!" without being slung out.

Mudcat is divided in two for a reason.

It allows the moderately good mannered discussion of folk music, but also supplies a place in which you can call a fool a bloody idiot, without being banished.

IMHO, a good thing on balance. YMMV!

The point is, as I said earlier, there is nobody outside the door seizing passers by and throwing them inside. You, and you alone make the decision whether or not to expose yourself to the responses you will certainly get, so railing against offence is, in a way, decrying your own bad decisions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 11:50 AM

Despite the word 'spleen' in my anagram, I tend to think venting it online is a bad move. I do ocassionally snap at people I think are talking bollocks, but more often than not don't bother engaging - especially as I am quite capable of talking bollocks myself. Unless it's when someone is grunting and moaning about the evil nature of cyclists, of course... then I might have something to say!

I do think that odious shite wrapped in pretty ribbons is still odious shite, though I totally accept that to someone out there it's going to be lovely, sweet-smelling shite. I also think that if in making your point you're directly abusive to another, no matter how much you disagree with them, it reflects more badly on you than the person you're having a pop at. The battle of ideas is surely where it should be at? Though admittedly it's sometimes tempting to throw the odd barb...

I also think that wading into arguments, discussions and conversations purely in order to slightly snottily look down on the participants as some sort of lesser species engaged in their petty mortal squabbles is deeply unseemly. As is the approach taken by some of the posters here which seems to be "why can't all nasty people whose views I disagree with stop posting so we can simulate a world of peace and harmony where everyone thinks like me (or if they don't think like me at least they should keep their dirty mouths shut)." Finally, I am always slightly bemused by the people who tell us it was all lovely in the old days. I avoided Mudcat for ages because it had a reputation as a haven of bad tempered old gits... when I started coming here I discovered that everything they'd warned me was true... ;-)

Finally, some of us don't actually have the time or inclination to spend hours and hours here and become an integral part of the "community", aren't that bothered about earning a niche as a well-loved character and maybe get embarassed about the idea of emotioning on line to the entire world. That's actually ok, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 11:01 AM

No probs, Musket. I like the Bob Dylan line in To Ramona.

I've heard you say many times
That you're better 'n no one
And no one is better 'n you
If you really believe that
You know you got
Nothing to win and nothing to lose

I think a lot of people forget one side or another of that equation when they talk about equality. Particularly those, ahem, how can I put it? Of a certain ecumenical persuasion.

Rest of it is Mr D's usual combination of pretension and obscurity but a nice song all the same :-) (Now, there's a way to start a row!)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 10:50 AM

I believe that most people on Mudcat do indeed show some respect where it is due and often when it is not! I always assume that respect is warranted until proved otherwise. As is sometimes the case :-(

The issue I have is where people insist that they are right and therefore everyone who disagrees with them is wrong, unfeeling, uncaring or just plain stupid. There are not many and I will not name them but I think you would find some surprising exponents of that philosophy if you were to dig a little through past threads.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Musket
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 10:47 AM

Well don't let me spoil it then...

Dave, equality globally cannot be achieved by me & thee. We members of the human race though accept that it doesn't mean you try to treat people equally where it is possible to do so. Judicial reasoning on each case on merit can throw out some howlers, but justice is overall blind, and those who compare cases for their own agenda have a rather warped view of justice.

The gay marriage bit is an excellent example. Nothing to stop people in love from getting married. I'm not gay and I haven't loved a bloke, fancied a bloke or shagged one, but as there is no reason why two lovers cannot commit to marriage, we now have chiselled a bit of equality. The fact that I cannot begin to see the attraction in that sense of a man is neither here nor there. it doesn't affect me so it doesn't matter. Each to their own.

There are some who still see gay people as second class citizens, but time always wins.

Some religious people want to see their restrictions imposed on others. Some non religious people want to see religious restrictions removed. Neither are supporting equality and neither can prevail. Democracy may not be the best system, after all it gives us the bloody government, but as nobody has come up with anything better, (and you would need, ironically, the democratic will of the people to remove it,) we are stuck with everybody having a bit of a say, however small. (We don't have full equality and never shall.)

Sorry for addressing this to you rather than to anyone else, but if I address this to the {person} above who states just there, at the top of your screen or scroll up a bit, yes - just there... that gay marriage isn't equal to something or other.. I'd have to disappoint Larry the Radio Guy, and by saying time always wins, I am sailing close to the wind as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 10:27 AM

To akenaton,, Dave the Gnome, Steve Shaw, and Musket,

Your current discussion is very consistent with this thread, and it reinforces my own concept of reinforcing respectful boundaries.

I like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 10:11 AM

:-)

Glad I gave you the benefit of the doubt and thanks for the confirmation.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:52 AM

Of course I didn't mean that Dave, I'm sure you have an admirable social conscience. I cross posted and apologise if you feel impugned.
I was wrong to write that sentence.

We have squabbled pretty amicably over the years.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:44 AM

if you were any kind of socialist I wouldn't need to.

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that that my social conscience is anything other than fair? I think this is what we are talking about when it is said that some people overstep respectful boundaries. I will give you the benefit seeing as we seem to agree that equality is not there yet. Would it not have been better to find out something about me rather than impugning my character?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:41 AM

Steve...I know you're a decent guy, and I more or less agree with you MOST of the time, but, in your heart do you not think that as a species, we have forgotten much more of real value than we will ever learn through science and technology?

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM

I have seen no evidence of real equality in my lifetime Dave.

Unless you see the "marriage" of two men as equal to the marriage of a man and a woman?
There is one natural inequality there!

The rich and the poor are as far apart as ever...more so in fact.
Its still the rich wot gets the pleasure, and the poor wot pays for it


Judicial equality is a sick joke!
Two years in jail for stealing toilet rolls.....and a million pound bonus for buggering up the economy!

Need I go on, if you were any kind of socialist I wouldn't need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:31 AM

Fairy Nuff, Musky, but the examples you quote are not universal. Can anyone in love marry in some of the more oppressive regimes? Is health care the same for everyone the world over? I think not but, yes, if we restrict it to our own experience you are right. And I'll buy anyone a pint as long as they buy me three back. I'm trying my best to become a Yorkshireman...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:19 AM

Eyup Dave... Equality is subjective. Doesn't mean you can't have it. It didn't take scientific discovery to say anybody in love can marry for instance, just a debate and Parliamentary vote. If you are in a car crash, the ambulance scoops you up on medical need, not race, gender or age.

True equality means we are all the same height, weight and political outlook. Diversity is good though. Even gnomes can buy me a drink if they so wish.




Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:59 AM

Another aspect, what possible good could it do humanity to know the origin of the Universe?

The quest for that knowledge helps us to elucidate the nature and properties of matter, knowledge which is vital to our continuing technological advance. And we would like to know the truth (or at least get a bit nearer to it), some of us.

Are we not better to believe in creation and a benevolent deity

Absolutely not. We are better off seeking truth in honest fashion (in other words, by hard work, mental toil and endless investigation, not by fanciful guesswork and suspension of part of our intellects), even if we never get there. Real truth I mean, not "greater truths", before some religious fellow or other chimes in.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:53 AM

Anyone who believes equality is real ain't a full shilling!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:50 AM

Yes, but some "sane" people cleave to these beliefs as if they were real.

They have sandwich boards with "Equality is the Reality" written on them in big black letters!! :0o

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:42 AM

The "cornerstons" of our society are not scientific facts, but beliefs.

That's as maybe, but the cornerstone of scientific endeavour is evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:11 AM

I confess. I once called Steve Shaw a Muppet.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:04 AM

Sorry Steve..cross posted, but I must take you up on your point.

The "cornerstons" of our society are not scientific facts, but beliefs.

"Freedom, Equality and Democracy"....dont REALLY exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 07:58 AM

Another aspect, what possible good could it do humanity to know the origin of the Universe? Are we not better to believe in creation and a benevolent deity....perhaps we could become better people by suspending cynicism?

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 07:56 AM

Of course it doesn't. As far as science goes in general, and the origin of the universe in particular, we don't have to "believe" anything. We come to conclusions after considering evidence. The conclusions may be conditional, but "beliefs" is a word best reserved for other areas of human endeavour that trump (in the minds of adherents) the need for evidence. That avoids confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 07:47 AM

But surely the fact of the universe itself flies in the face of all natural laws?
I am not disagreeing with you...I cannot come to terms with the creationist belief, but many of the beliefs held by we "sane" people are just as incredible?

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 07:37 AM

Be fair Steve, neither we nor the scientists have any more idea of how the universe began than the creationists.

Lets admit that on that issue we are all in ignorance?

That's a nonsensical piece of false equivalence and, in any case, it is not the issue. Science tries to get to the truth by gathering evidence and applying all our intellectual prowess to it. Creationism is based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever and flies in the face of all natural laws. We are entitled to challenge and ridicule notions that are constructed in this way, but creationists are not entitled to dish the dirt on good, honest science. Science requires hard work and application. Creationism requires no work at all, just whimsy, denial and delusion. It ill-behoves the latter to dish dirt on the former. Or, at any rate, they do so at their peril as far as I'm concerned. Creationists who possess that delusion but keep quiet about it are probably very nice chaps. Creationists who attack good science are nasty pieces of work. Just look at the effect they have in the US education system. Horrible people, persuading four yanks in ten that evolution is a lie. We should neither indulge them nor let them get away with attempts to propagate their malicious nonsense, not even here.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 07:30 AM

Richard....I don't know and have never met any "gypsies", I have no reason to hate them.
My neighbour, who moved here from Yorkshire, hates them with a passion, He says they would steal the sugar out your tea.....I have no way of verifying that so ...innocent till proved guilty in my eyes.

In this area, we have community of Scots/Irish tinkers, I have just this week been robbed by them to the value of over £500
When we last discussed this matter they were involved in drug dealing and money lending(to young drug addicts)....repayments were enforced at knife point.....subsequently, several have been jailed and the encampment closed "for maintenance".
Due to their protected special status their drug dealing activities went on uninterrupted for several years.

There are thieves and drug dealers in all sections of society, but "special status" makes this sort of activity easy ....it is the legislation that I am against, not the people.

Homosexuals? certainly not, I wish to see them defeat the horrific rates of infection which afflict them.

Political Parties?....Probably so, as they all work for their Capitalist master and he is the Great Satan......why do you and Ian not save a little of your bile for him? I'm sure he deserves it as much as I do?.....

Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 07:01 AM

A world after Capitalism.