Singing in Different Accents/Dialects

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 01:58 PM

"I've said it before and I'll say it again. The correct form of any language is that which is spoken in the Capital City"
.,,.
Sorry, Bert; nice try!: but an untenable statement. The capital's own specific accent [Cockney in our case] is as 'regional' as any other. "The correct form of any language" is that accepted as such by the educated; & here in UK that is so-called RP ['Received Pronunciation'].

You might not like it, but such is the fact. Sorry. And please note that this is no sort of denigration of any dialectal variants, but simply a semantic comment on the only acceptable connotation of the word "correct" in the particular context of this dialogue.

I have no more to add to this thread, as we have been thru it all before, at least twice, within the past year or three; in such threads as my "Why 'mid-Atlantic'?", which drifted to make all the points now being made here.

Er ~~ Innit!

~M~

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:17 PM

Bert is obviously flying a kite ...... upside down!

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Bert
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 05:22 PM

~M~, so I guess that what you are saying is, that The BBC defined our language.

"Educated Southern English" is what intellectuals usually consider correct.

Jim, I'm just having fun. If I were to choose the BEST English accent I think it would be from Herefordshire.

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 06:06 PM

That is a bit question-begging & cart-before-horsey, Bert. Such speech well preceded the BBC, which in no sense either initiated or 'defined' it [whatever you may mean by that verb here], tho it might at one time have acquired the sobriquet of 'BBC English' as the Beeb announcers tended to use it & so were heard nationwide doing so; because, following Lord Reith's principles, they came, originally anyhow, from the echelons of society in which such speech was the norm. But throughout the nation, long before invention of the wireless, that was how everyone, everywhere in the country, would have expected the vicar, the doctor, the schoolteacher, to speak... They would indeed have felt disoriented, & lost faith in such pillars-of-society's bona-fides and reliability had they spoken as they themselves [ie their parishioners, patients, pupils] did.

As you well know ~~ honest, now...

Innit.

~M~

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 06:23 PM

"The capital's own specific accent [Cockney in our case)"
Cockney is East London - accents can and do vary from Greenwich to Richmond as widely as they do from Luton to Birmingham.
I once worked with a painter who claimed he could tell where a Londoner came from by the way he spoke.
I assume that it's all different now that everybody seems to communicate in glottal stops.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 03:15 AM

The language snobbery thing isn't confined to speakers of Standard English. The dialect of Scots from West Central Scotland (ie Glasgow) may be the best known to people outside of scotland but it had a very low standing among the Scots purists themselves with many at one time not even recognising it as proper Scots at all. The Scottish National Dictionary, a work on the Scots language which was 70 years in the making, has in the preface

"owing to the influx of Irish and other foreign immigrants in the industrial area near Glasgow the dialect has become hopelessly corrupt"

It may be urban and less conservative than the other dialects, and it may be more anglicised than the rural dialects in their richer forms, but generally it is now regarded as being a form of Scots.

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Gutcher
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 06:56 AM

Allan--Trotter in 1901 was making the same remarks as the SND and he dates the corruption as having started near 60 years before that time.
He remarks that some of the older people in Glasgow were still holding out against the corruuption of the Scots language at the time of writing.

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 07:09 AM

With regard to the thread title, wouldn't it be fascinating to hear a well-known folk song presented and sung in many different accents by people born and bred in each locality? One could make a CD of it, and people could have opinions as to which version was the most effective/moving/successful etc. Perhaps such a CD exists, I don't know.

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:03 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAZvus5Hh1o


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not exactly a folk song Eliza but did it one night at the club one night as a bit fun.

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:11 AM

Interesting Gutcher. I suppose language is always changing and there will always be people reacting against that change.

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Eldergirl
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:06 AM

Lol! Allan that's brilliant!
Just goes to show Dylan is universal!

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 12:55 PM

Thanks it was an interesting exercise. I must admit I anglicised just a couple of words,or at least didn't Borderise them as I could have done, to make the rhyme. So it threw up some problems but in the long run it gives you far more possible rhymes if you have the option to Scotticise or not :-)

The only bit I regret on the vid is using the word 'gloamin' as it is not something I'd use in everyday speech. Should have said "derk side o the road" rather than "glaomin in the road"

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 01:59 PM

There was a cartoon a few years ago showing a Centurian holding a candle in one hand and a Highland collie on a lead in the other.
The caption read " Roman in the gloamin' wi' a Lassie by his side".

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 02:35 PM

Hahahahahaha! So funny, Jim!

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 03:38 PM

And where did I hear that the best English is spoken in Dublin? (Not necessarily referring to the accent, methinks!)

As for Eliza's idea: same song in different accents - let's do it!

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Mysha
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:03 PM

Well,

In Frisian, there are two large dialect groups, and the language of the capital is Stêdsk, which isn't Frisian at all. In such a setting, you learn rather early-on that there's no single correct version of a language.

I do sing songs in English, a foreign language to me, if one not that different from Frisian, and I also sing in other languages sometimes. I've always done so, sometimes even when I could understand very little of the words but just wanted to reproduce the nice sound of the song. And when recreating a song that way, I guess reproducing the country, dialect, and accent would be part of it, even if I'm not very good at doing so consciously.

But when I want to get the meaning of a song across, then it's different. Then I have to - understand it and - be understandable to the audience. Depending on the audience, I might have to stay close to Dutch School English, or try for something that sounds more, well, English. In some sessions, as the taste around here is for Irish Folk rather than English, I might even have to sound a bit Irish, to not distract the others with my language.

And over in England? Well, I've had one case where I could not make the difference between "head" and "hat", and so spoiled a good poem. But apparently my singing can usually be understood, and the listeners accept a foreigner trying to sing the language. (And that includes Twa Corbies, as it has to sound right to make it work next to Twa Roeken, in Frisian.)

I guess that it's by the kindness shown by the English that I can get away with accents and mistakes, even if those may sometimes be distracting. It does beg the question, though, whether there's a reason not to show that same kindness to native singers making a good effort, their distractions being much subtler than mine.

                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Gutcher
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 05:48 AM

To return to the OP an example:--
[!] Owre the bauks and alang the riggin the gurly wind is soughin    blawin.
    And lood loods the blatter o the coorse rain ondingin.
    Nae fishin the nicht, the Guidman tae the fire is drawn.
    At the windae tae her bairn his young wife is singin.

[ch]Gyang awa frae the windae bogie man.
    Gyang awa frae the windae bogie man.
    It wis the wind and the rain that brocht yer daddie hame.
    Sae gyang awa frae the windae bogie man.

Now the chorus can be translated to a singable English but I doubt if the same can be done for the verse.

The song is about a young wife who is receiving visits from a young man when her older husband is away at the fishing. When there is adverse weather and the husband is at home his wife stands at the window and sings to her child as a warning to her lover not to visit her that night.

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 06:48 AM

I wouldn't dream of anglicising a song like that - it wouldn't seem like 'anglicising', in fact, it would seem like translating it from Scots into English.

Perhaps we can distinguish between songs that are in Scots and those that are in English with some Scots vocabulary & word forms? Take Child's Sheath and Knife, for example (variant A):

He's taen his sister doun to her father's deer park,
Wi his yew-tree bow and arrows fast slung to his back.

'Now when that ye hear me gie a loud cry,
Shoot frae thy bow an arrow and there let me lye.

It looks recognisably 'Scottish', but it drops into standard English like shelling peas - you hardly need to change anything. A song like Twa Corbies, on the other hand -

As I was walking all alane,
I heard twa corbies makin a mane;
The tane unto the ither say,
"Whar sall we gang and dine the-day?"

- that's Scots. As an English singer you either sing it as it's written and take your chances with the accent, or you translate it (alone, two, moan, one, other, where, shall, go, today, and so on through the rest of the song). Or leave it alone, of course.

Having said that, I think I could probably do a passable impression of a Scot singing that song, just as I can do a reasonable impression of a Yorkshireman singing "Old Molly Metcalfe": when you learn a song from a single source, the accent and intonation of the singer sticks with you. But there would always be a temptation to "do" an accent, and (unless you're an impressionist) the accents you consciously put on are rarely recognisable to anyone else.

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 06:49 AM

Damn - tag fail. Let's try again.

I wouldn't dream of anglicising a song like that - it wouldn't seem like 'anglicising', in fact, it would seem like translating it from Scots into English.

Perhaps we can distinguish between songs that are in Scots and those that are in English with some Scots vocabulary & word forms? Take Child's Sheath and Knife, for example (variant A):

He's taen his sister doun to her father's deer park,
Wi his yew-tree bow and arrows fast slung to his back.

'Now when that ye hear me gie a loud cry,
Shoot frae thy bow an arrow and there let me lye.

It looks recognisably 'Scottish', but it drops into standard English like shelling peas - you hardly need to change anything. A song like Twa Corbies, on the other hand -

As I was walking all alane,
I heard twa corbies makin a mane;
The tane unto the ither say,
"Whar sall we gang and dine the-day?"

- that's Scots. As an English singer you either sing it as it's written and take your chances with the accent, or you translate it (alone, two, moan, one, other, where, shall, go, today, and so on through the rest of the song). Or leave it alone, of course.

Having said that, I think I could probably do a passable impression of a Scot singing that song, just as I can do a reasonable impression of a Yorkshireman singing "Old Molly Metcalfe": when you learn a song from a single source, the accent and intonation of the singer sticks with you. But there would always be a temptation to "do" an accent, and (unless you're an impressionist) the accents you consciously put on are rarely recognisable to anyone else.

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:51 AM

As a Geordie, I'd have little hesitation in attempting most songs from Scotland or Ireland- I'd draw the line at bothy ballads and the Freedom come allye' where there are a lot of Scots language words- likewise in Irish songs, the Irish/Scots Gaelic songs being out of bounds completely. I'd be much more wary of songs from southern parts of England, and I am sure southern singers are aware of similar difficulties, which are not just of language but of culture.
A song I've sung in the south is Ed Pickford's anthem to old age- 'Nee bliddy good gettin' aad'- now that is fairly easily translatable, and I have given the words to several singers in the south- (Ed loves his songs to be sung!)but the rhyming is difficult for non- Northeasteners- examples being

Your pub's never hord of a domino board and
Aa think that ye'll find that ye can't get yer wind (short 'i' sound'

these are Shiney Row rhymes and are hard to translate to what is laughingly called Standard English (there's no such thing!

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 09:06 AM

Interesting thread, particularly since right now I'm learning Jock of Hazeldene (the Corries version). As a result of reading this thread I did a tiny bit of research on the song - very interesting!

As a Norf Londoner who has had to tone the accent down after the eight and a half years I've lived in Maine, I'm still a little concerned that my rendition of this song won't offend too many ears but have decided that, since I really like the song, I'll give it a go. Luckily the Corries version doesn't have too many dialect words, unlike Dick Gaugan's version, which I wouldn't even try to attempt. I'll use what dialect there is but won't even try to go all Scottish on this one.

Subject: RE: Singing in Different Accents/Dialects
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:10 AM

Ye'll nivvor Knaa jist hoo much aa luv ye
Ye'll nivvor knaa just hoo much aa care
And if aa tried aa stiil cuddent hide me luv for ye
Surely ye ,knaa coz hevvent aa telt ye so,
A million an' mair times.....'

(from the singing of the late Foster Charlton, Northumbrian piper extraordinaire & occasional singer)