BS: Moscow Olympics.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 05:26 PM

Not sure I would go as far as banjo players though....

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.q
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 05:13 PM

I wholly agree with that, Musket. Stigmatising people for being an identifiable section of society is never justifiable

(Even investment bankers deserve to be treated humanely. And the marketing guys.)

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 04:01 PM

There is a gay site apparently that advocates all straight people to be forcefully cured. Very droll but as we see so often here, irony can backfire when dealing with cerebral challenge.

My take as someone who isn't gay is that you are what you are. Choice comes into how you set your stall out in life. I do empathise with the vast majority who are comfortable with their life and see no point in being otherwise.

Hence stigmatising people for being an identifiable section of society is so appalling. It soon leads to scapegoat mentality as we are presently seeing in Russia. Presumably blaming Jews is old hat and the marketing guys suggested a fresh approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 03:45 PM

I wa talking about drug use, there. While drug use is a matter of choice I am sure that addiction is largely a matter of other factors in the people concerned - genetic, developmental, social.

Sexual orientation is a different matter. I am sure that for a great number of people there is no question of choice. Though for some people there would appear to be an element of choice. I came across this site, which looks reasonably reliable , the Williams Institute, which gives the number of Americans who have had same sex behaviour as 19 million, whereas some nine million define themselves as gay or bisexual, and a little over half of those define themselves as bisexual.

I note that this gay site appears to treat the Williams Institute as a reliable source.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:34 PM

"ay"?

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:20 PM

And what makes you think that ay/lesbian/transgender is a "lifestyle CHOICE"?

Did you CHOOSE to be male or British? Or "straight"- assuming that you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:03 PM

Drug use involves a lifestyle choice, and addiction is a likely consequence of that choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:14 PM

But you articulate well enough to make your point clear. The ambiguity of it does lead to reading it as now rather than historically. You came over as making comparisons between addiction and lifestyle choice. I take it you never intended that to be your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 09:32 AM

You're right there. Apologies for the confusion. I meant Ian the Musket, referring to his post at 1:18.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:16 AM

Kevin: Your last post seems addressed to me, but I can't think why. It replies to nothing that I have posted. Think you might have meant Keith or Ian?

Regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 06:56 AM

If I'd said that I saw drug use as a major problem in society, and drug addicts as shameful outsiders perhaps you might have a point there, Michael.

But I don't. I see drug use rather as a lifestyle choice, though one which is often very foolish and can involve serious health risks. I see the way the way society deals with it as a very serious problem, with very harmful consequences. There is an analogy with the way it dealt with people with gay orientation a few years ago, when it was criminalised.
......................

I think it is important in a discussion to distinguish between what adversaries have actually said and what we believe are the implications. That is not pedantry. It doesn't mean that it is wrong to point out the implications we believe need to be drawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 04:33 AM

Who has a poor grasp of medical issues and who is judging it as so?

Here's a medical issue for you. Read a book, preferably a short one with lots of pictures, on the subject of personality disorder. Then go on the Mudcat website, click on any hyperlink with the word Akenaton on it and read a history of the posts. See if the penny drops.

If anybody else feels the urge to do this, may I suggest having a bucket nearby, and access to a shower or bath afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 04:09 AM

I apologise for my mistake in the title of the thread, I had confused the World Championships with the Winter Olympics.

Perhaps "Russian Winter Olypics"?

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM

Mr McGrath is simply pointing out the numerous inaccuracies in your posting style Ian.

Perhaps these inaccuracies are not deliberate, as you also seem to have a rather poor grasp of the medical aspects of the issue.

This forum is not populated by idiots, but by intelligent people who will not condone misreprestation of the facts, by you or anyone else.

You just make things up as you go along, when your ideology is questioned you get personal, nasty, and inaccurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:18 AM

How can you have missed it when you have stated it? Likening being gay to drug addiction for starters. Seeing merely being gay as a problem for society rings a bell too.

You know, there is a fine line between hate (as in Akenaton) and being an apologist for hate (pedantic questions over wording all the bloody time.)

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 12:55 AM

For accuracy, the Winter Olympics will be in Sochi, not Moscow --

"Sochi (Russian: Со́чи, IPA: [ˈsot͡ɕɪ]) is a city in Krasnodar Krai, Russia, situated on the Black Sea coast near the border between Georgia/Abkhazia and Russia. Greater Sochi sprawls for 145 kilometers (90 mi) along the shores of the Black Sea near the Caucasus Mountains. According to the 2010 Census, the city had a permanent population of 343,334;[5] up from 328,809 recorded in the 2002 Census,[9] making it Russia's largest resort city."

As it's in Russia, presumably same considerations apply in all respects; tho the thread title does appear inaccurate: presumably chose by OP cos who knows where Sochi is?!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: non Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:19 PM

I can't see how "USA, Canada and Austalia" can guarantee the safety of anybody going to the Olympics, in Russia or anywhere apart from the USA, Canada and Australia ( and even there as the Boston bombing sadly demonstrated, it can only be a provisional guarantee).

If gay people are at greater risk than others in some places that is not how it should be - but it doesn't in any way reflect on their sporting ability, or any other ability, and I haven't seen anybody suggesting anything to the contrary.

And once again THERE ARE NO MOSCOW OLYMPICS

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:53 PM

Please akenaton, grow up and wise up.

Don't hold your breath, Eliza. Bigoted assholes is bigoted assholes & not susceptible of either.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:47 PM

Eliza....how "angry" you are, is of little concern to me, or, I suspect most of the mudcat membership, tho' I can't say that I overjoyed at your insinuations regarding my sexuality.
You know nothing about me and are unlikely ever to find out anything other than what I choose to make public here, so dont let your obviously fertile imagination run away with you.

I do not make up these figures, they are very alarming facts, if you feel "angry" about them being made available, write or phone the health agencies.

Bobad....I have no objection to arguing the issue with you, but I do object to your insinuations....you know nothing about me.
The epidemic is in our respective countries confined to MSM, no other demographic is affected at epidemic rates.
Infection rates in all other groups are falling or static, even injecting drug users. It would not matter whether the worst affected group was MSM or not, the point is that the epidemic is not being addressed seriously, due to a politically correct agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:35 PM

Since USA, Canada and Australia among others have issued declarations that they are unable to guarantee the safety of gay athletes, trainers or supporters going to these Olympic sports, I'd say that doesn't put gay sportsmen and women on a level footing with straight ones. Going to a foreign country to compete while feeling uneasy about the possibility of being persecuted or arrested isn't going to help one's concentration or performance. As the title of this thread is 'Moscow Olympics', and having read several postings by you-know-who (no, not Voldemort) I'm objecting to the idea that one's sexual orientation is in any way relevant to one's sporting prowess. As, apparently, straight folk won't have this attitude to contend with, that gives them a certain relaxed advantage, which is grossly unfair, and IMO amounts to inequality.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:09 PM

Has anyone posted anything suggesting that gay people are unequal to straight people? If so, I've missed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:48 PM

I have several gay acquaintances of both sexes, and two very dear gay men friends who have been partners for decades and love eachother dearly. It hurts and angers me that someone could hold such dreadful views about gay men. These two friends are faithful to eachother and good people in every way. They must be respected and have exactly the same rights, opportunities and acceptance as anybody else. They would be an admirable example to children of a good, stable relationship, and I'm proud to be numbered among their friends. It's laughable to suggest they're the product of 'bad parenting'. Their parents on both sides were lovely people. And their homosexuality wasn't 'learned behaviour' as they both have told me they knew they were gay from early childhood. If either or both of my friends were talented sportsmen, I'd want them to be able to compete on a completely level footing with anyone else of any colour, creed, sex or sexuality. I get so incensed at this bigoted and, yes, weird idea that gay men are somehow contaminated with disease and an evil influence on society. Such ideas are strange and sick. I can't remember being so angry on Mudcat. Please akenaton, grow up and wise up.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:31 PM

Look at it this way. You reckon that as you think, however wrongly, that a large number of people don't see gay people as equal that it must be respected.

Well a large number of people on Mudcat have you weighed up. Does your theory stand up still?

Oh and stop trying to come over all hurt, it doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 04:48 PM

Ake, if you focused your crusade on unsafe sex practices rather than on the sexual orientation of the participants there would be less suspicion of your motives.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 02:23 PM

"degree of vicious hate"?

Could you point me to where I have said anything vicious or hateful towards homosexuals?

Do you honestly not care about the hiv epidemic amongst male homosexuals? Is that not a sort of hatred....can you ignore the situation while infection rates are so high?

70% of new cases in the US and UK are within MSM, a demographic which consists of mainly male homosexuals and rates are rising by almost 10% annually......In London 2011 the infection rate rose by 21% in one year. It is estimated that in London 1 in 5 male homosexuals carry the virus and that almost one third of those who tested positive were completely unaware that they had become infected
We should all be demanding that something radical is done about this situation. Hatred?....you haven't a clue.

I will ignore the insinuation in your posts, give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll just put it down to desperation, you dont have any answers so you try the personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 01:07 PM

I think you've nailed it Eliza, I made the same observation aeons ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:57 PM

Having had the pain of reading many of akenaton's obsessively homophobic postings, I'm beginning to wonder if underneath he's actually gay himself but can't come to terms with it. Whyever else would someone bang on to that degree of vicious hate?

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:48 PM

Excellent, sensible post Howard.
Agree 100%.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 08:10 AM

I take a cynical view of calls for sporting boycotts of this kind of event. Very few regimes are squeaky-clean and there is usually something which can be objected to make a political point. However the people who call for a boycott are not usually those who will be affected by it. They expect athletes to give up what might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to achieve their life's dream but are not prepared to give up trade or other relationships. It's an easy gesture which hurts the innocent more than the guilty.

The previous boycott of a Moscow Olypics achieved what? Who can even remember the cause of it? All it achieved was the disappointment of those athletes who were unable to attend, and a devaluing of the achievements of those who did.

The only sporting boycott I can think of which may have helped to achieve change was that of South Africa. However that was very different - it was S Africa which was excluded from international events, and the major championships were not held there. Athletes had plenty of other opportunities to perform elsewhere and were not penalised in the same way as an Olympic boycott would.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM

Yes indeed Ian, but wouldn't you usually insert it in brackets after your current Mudcat label?

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Ian Mather
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:35 PM

Disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 03:48 PM

You are as usual quite correct Mr McGrath.
Ian's assertion is simply a lie, I think it unlikely that homosexuality can be successfully "cured".

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 03:41 PM

Another cop out Ian?...thats about half a dozen in the two threads :0) Now who's running to form?

All you have is abuse and bluster, GuestSJL is perfectly correct on the other thread, people of your ilk are a menace.
You purport to have worked in the health service, yet are unable to admit there are serious sexual health problems associated with male homosexuality.
You blame everything on "stigma" and "discrimination" when you know very well that these have decreased substancially, legislation has been brought in to normalise the behaviour, yet infection rates are rocketing.....still you bury your head in the sand and defend the failed procedures which you helped to instigate.

You should be ashamed of yourself, you and others like you are the biggest part of the problem, male homosexuals seem unwilling or unable to self regulate, but still the agencies pontificate and muddy the waters while thousands more become infected.
What is gained by "routinely" testing and contact tracing the whole population in "designated areas" for hiv, when everyone knows the rates of infection in western developed countries are almost wholly confined to male homosexuals.

You are terrified, not for the health of thousands of mainly young men, but for the survival of your failed ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 03:32 PM

I looked back through the thread, and I don't think anyone has suggested that it makes sense to talk about "curing" gay people.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 04:43 AM

Except you come from the outrageous supposition that being gay a) can be cured and b) that gay people would wish to.   Any prevalence of depression or other issues higher than the norm in gay people comes from the stigmatisation idiots like you give them.

I purposely mentioned a medical condition through genetic history (sickle cell anaemia) and a susceptibility to what can be a lifestyle issue (type 2 diabetes, easier to catch when genetically vulnerable. ) There is no known gene for choice of partner. Some people wish fat, thin, jolly, intelligent, easy going, different gender, blondes, same gender, brunette, none at all. .... Don't try to cure lifestyle. Bad enough pharmacy companies medicalising aspects of normal behaviour without ignorant hate merchants trying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 02:35 AM

Of course there are cures for all the ills you mention Ian, but they would all involve compulsion of one sort or another.
Compulsion does not always mean legislation.
In my youth there were very few obese people around and almost no obese children. We were active, had a healthy diet and wasted nothing.

To make inroads into obesity and unhealthy lives will take a huge social and political change, but hiv/aids amongst male homosexuals can be drastically cut by action now!

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 01:26 AM

Why don't you both start a political party? You don't need to spend too much on promotional aids or clothing. Plenty of special markets around Leipzig selling memorabilia.

Do you have an ultimate solution for obesity whilst you are at it? How about being from the India Sub Continent?   They are at high risk of type 2 diabetes. What are you going to suggest for their lifestyle addiction?   Sickle cell issues in African blacks? Round them fuckers up and force testing and medication whilst you are at it.

Oh and jump on the inevitable band wagon that says if you felt Stephen Fry articulated his point succinctly you are as self serving as he is portrayed. Demonising a luvvie for running true to form doesn't affect the point he tried to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:33 PM

It seems that everyone is rowing back from the position being pushed by Mr Fry....the arrogance of that arsehole knows no bounds.

There is only one other that I can think of who comes anywhere near him in self-serving,pompous, hysteria...:0).

Ian...have you no shame? Trying to twist the words of one of the most respected members wont do you any good at all.....stick to the unpopular ones.
I dont think homosexuality can be effectively cured, it will always be part of the affected individual and in that sense it is similar to "addiction"
Some addictions are quite harmless, but male to male sexual intercourse and the lifestyle which often seems to follow from it are extremely dangerous and unhealthy, as such they should not be promoted as safe and healthy, or the health statistics concealed to safeguard an agenda of political correctness.

Homosexuality a choice?....Hmmmm perhaps partly, but I would think it more "learned behaviour", the affect of bad parenting etc.
Certainly there has been no genetic link found.

Instead of ranting about "equality" why dont you give us your solution to the homosexual health problems....and for Christ's sake dont just ramble on about "Education, inclusion and outreach"....you're beginning to sound just like the neurotic Mr FRY.



"I am opposed to the promotion of homosexuality as as safe and healthy lifestyle, when it patently is not so.

Finally! THAT'S the answer to the question I posed to you at 09 Aug 13 - 02:33 PM, Pharoah."
Greg....get a grip! That has been my stance for years on this forum, just look back at any of the threads you will see your question ansewred half a dozen times......you haven't bee paying attention....have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:22 PM

Pointing out common factors isn't the same thing as "equating".

It seems very likely that for very many people involved in a drug centred lifestyle, whether legal drugs or illegal drugs, there is very little choice involved. It also seems likely that for others there is a strong element of choice.

I can't see why demonising drug users is any more justifiable than demonising gay people.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 03:32 PM

I am disappointed in his comments. I gave him an opportunity to clarify his earlier comments and he has. Unfortunately he clarified that he has lost any respect I had for him if he sees gay choice as something to be cured or equated to addiction.

I find it almost frightening that in this day and age, people who are capable of articulating views can have ones that have no place in polite company. If someone who is being referred to but not a participant in a Mudcat debate can read posts and feel insulted, the insulter needs to think before speaking.

I challenge gay bigotry, religious bigotry and any other portrayed here. Others do too but as you can't educate pork, maybe plugging away is just self serving? That would be so sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:42 PM

So, Kevin, you equate being Gay/Lesbian/Transgender with drug addiction and/or a disease? What makes you think that being Gay/Lesbian/Transgender is a "choice"? Did you "choose" to be hetero- assuming you are? Did you "choose" your hair color or eye color or sex?

Is this you, or neanderthal Catholicism speaking?

Subject: RE: BS: Russian Winter Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:04 PM

I see this thread is still marked up as Moscow Oympics, though there is not likely to be another Moscow Olympics for a great many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 01:36 PM

From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 07:33 AM

If Mohamed Farah had the same attitude as Mahatma Gandhi, Somalia may have won it's first ever Olympic medals...and if ever a country needed a boost; instead, he has re-emigrated to the U.S.A.

Is this 'breaking news'?
I hadn't heard that he'd stopped representing the UK!

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 01:06 PM

"Why deny a hard wired need just because it isn't yours? "

Fair enough. People rarely seem to recognize that as applying in the case of some drug use.

In everything people do there is likely to be a combination of "hard-wired need" and choice. Insofar as choice is involved it's not unreasonable to point out that some choices are riskier than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 10:35 AM

It may be wise to reword that in case people think being gay is an affliction that can be cured. If you or I can be cured of heterosexuality then gay people can be cured too.   Cured to what? Celibacy? Why? Being straight? Then I can be cured of not fancying a woman I don't find attractive.

Everybody wants to be 1 to 1 with someone. Overnight or for life the feeling is the same. Why deny a hard wired need just because it isn't yours? Those who talk of procreation as an aim must all every one of them never had any form of contraception and hoped for a baby every time in their lives that they have orgasmed.

Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 08:31 AM

Many smokers and other drug users do seem to think that "it is much stronger than that".

I believe that we should move radically in the direction f decriminalisation of drug use generally, but that it is perfectly reasonable for people to oppose any kind of propoganda for use ( as opposed to campaigning for decriminalisation) and that should not be equated with prejudice against drug users, of which there is far too much.

Essentially the same holds good in relation to certain gay lifestyles.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 03:08 AM

Kevin. Although peer pressure may be ultimately strong, smoking and drugs are choice. Most gay people when writing about their lifestyle say it is much stronger than that. Not being gay I couldn't say, but have no reason to disbelieve.

Wearing rainbow colours fits with my view that it should go ahead. In fact the publicity around their draconian laws abusing human rights wouldn't have the international focus without the upcoming games.

Mrs Musket and I ski and hitherto were looking forward to using the resort after the Olympics. We most probably shan't give Russia tourist income now. A pity because we skiied Whistler before and after the last games and the infrastructure to places that Olympics offers goes much further than the games. (Although Sheffield is still paying for the world student games now, and most of the stadia are crumbling. ..)

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 08:46 PM

Of course the athletes who gave the black power salute had to pay a pretty high price, to what should be the lasting shame of the Olympic and US authorities (though I've never heard there has been kind of adequate apology for that, and of course those responsible for that treatment have of course never been penalised).

But I can't see how anything like that could be done in face of athletes with rainbow colours. Though I would imagine it would be tricky for those from some countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: GUEST,Allen inOz
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 08:17 PM

There may be be other ways to protest

The Black Power salute is often replayed on TV

Perhaps we could encourage the participants to wear rainbow ribbons at the opening and closing ceremonies.... and when receiving medals.

It will be remembered for many years and recorded on film for all time

Just a thought

AD

Subject: RE: BS: Moscow Olympics.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 07:45 PM

In principle I'm not too sure how that is too different from saying the same of smoking, or other drugs...