BS: Russians board Greenpeace

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 09:32 AM

Thanks Iain.
I accept that we are dependent on oil for the very surival of our civilisation, such as it is.
I accept that there is no viable alternative remotely in sight.

If this field were undiscovered, that would not be the end.
We could afford to leave the oil in the ground a bit longer in the hope that technology of extraction becomes safer, or an alternative source of energy becomes available.
It is not yet a last resort.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:39 AM

Keith,
      I admire your tenacity and occasionally the eloquence of your argument. However the very act of living is a case study of risk and the management of risk.
      Without a continuous search for new sources of oil the price would rise alarmingly and the knock on effects would be horrific.
As yet there is no substitute and the modern world requires abundant energy. I think recent events have demonstrated that the nuclear option
also has significant risk of a far higher magnitude than a periodic oil spill and can have a multi-generational impact.
      If all the treehuggers had to walk to find a tree then I suspect their protests would diminish to insignificance.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:30 AM

The new fields are deep inside, and the risks comensurately greater.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:03 AM

The Norne field is practically inside the arctic circle, as is Skarve. I do not recollect greenpeace cluttering up the area when these actually came on stream. I think the rationale for protest is some years behind the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 07:43 AM

But regardless how safe we make offshore drilling in the Arctic, there will still be a significant risk of a major oil spill, and policy makers and industry need to be honest about this. People will make mistakes, and equipment will fail. It's not a question of 'if' a major spill will occur, but 'when and where.'

A major spill will travel with currents, in and under sea ice during ice season, and it would be virtually impossible to contain or recover. Even with robust oil spill response capability, in most scenarios far less than 10 per cent will be recovered, and a major spill could easily become a transnational event.

A large spill would undoubtedly cause extensive acute mortality in plankton, fish, birds, and marine mammals. As well, there would be significant chronic, sub-lethal injury to organisms - physiological damage, altered feeding behavior and reproduction, genetic injury, etc. - that would reduce the overall viability of populations.

There could be a permanent reduction in certain populations, and for threatened or endangered species, a major spill could tip them into extinction. With low temperatures and slow degradation rates, oil spilled in the Arctic would persist for decades. And a major oil spill in the Arctic Ocean could severely damage subsistence harvest opportunities, and forever change the lives of coastal peoples.

Put simply, oil drilling in the Arctic Ocean cannot be done without risk and serious impact. There will be chronic degradation, and there will be spills. So the policy question is whether we wish to expose the Arctic Ocean and its people to such risk.

http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/other_comments/1096998/why_arctic_ocean_oil_drilling_is_a_risky_choi

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 07:39 AM

Another bunch of self righteous, tunnel visioned, treehuggers

Arctic oil rush will ruin ecosystem, warns Lloyd's of LondonInsurance market joins environmentalists in highlighting risks of drilling in fragile region as $100bn investment is predicted
The Guardian, Thursday 12 April 2012
Arctic oil rush will ruin ecosystem, warns Lloyd's of LondonInsurance market joins

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 06:18 AM

A bunch of self righteous, tunnel visioned, treehuggers deliberately taking an icebreaker into an exclusion zone are very likely to be the cause of an environmental disaster if allowed to continue their reckless operations. None of those aboard should ever be allowed to have any semblance of control of any vessel again. At the very least they should all be charged with the premeditated endangering of life at sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 03:37 PM

Looking for violence?
Yes, but not offering any.
Just prepared to receive it in the cause of averting an environmental disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 03:27 PM

Boarding vessels and property without permission is looking for violence.
Putin's comments were too soft.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:03 AM

Non-violent terrorists are the best kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:23 AM

President Putin may well be right not to call them pirates-How about eco-terrorists instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:08 AM

But they were still BLOODY reckless, taking a single engine/screw vessel within the SEZ of a structure, and deserve prosecuting.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 02:51 AM

Putin said they were not pirates.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 01:33 AM

Activists now held in various pretrial detention centers around Murmansk.The regional investigators are being overseen by Moscow based colleagues. An anonymous official commented "This means it is being taken very seriously"(Borneo Post today)

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:54 PM

Who knows what stands in Russian jurisprudence?

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM

Piracy charges would not stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 12:30 PM

Remarks by Putin suggest that piracy charges will not be brought against the crazies. He should reconsider.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 10:47 AM

Keith: They do not interfere with commerce.
Just whaling and reckless oil exploitation.

As I said in my first post near the top of this thread:

Greenpeace took a *single engined*, *single-screwed* vessel inside the Safety Exclusion Zone of an offshore structure, with no guard-boat or tug standing by to pull them off in case of engine failure. THIS is reckless....in the extreme! Imagine an engine failure when it was doing say 8 knots towards the platform, inside the zone. Reckless doesn't even begin to cut it, IMO. The Master should lose his certificate for that, even if he's not jailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 05:41 AM

Peaceful protest is quite clearly defined in UK law. You can stand in the way of a truck which is servicing the activity you are protesting against and try to verbally persuade the driver not to cross your line.

You cannot open the truck door and try to enter, nor can you lay hands on the driver.

Directly analogous to the difference between getting between the whale and the harpoon gun, or attempting to board a vssel or rig.

So, that Greenpeace action was beyond what is permissible under the mantle of peaceful protest, whether it qualifies as piracy or not.

Greenpeace have, I'm afraid, picked on the wrong people, who are not likely to be bothered by world opinion, and not known for any leniency toward foreign transgressors.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: selby
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 05:17 AM

I have worked at a facility that these people wanted to close down, where they mounted "attacks" to protect the environment, but caused more environmental damage by their ill thought out logic
They only see and believe what they are indoctrinated with, every body is an a***hole apart from them, they put people with a legitimate right to work at risk. These include dangers of plant conditions, verbal abuse, spitting, kicking, etc. Until there is a camera around and then they sit ever so quite and shout victim. Pretty TV pictures of them, but away from the cameras not vert nice people I am afraid.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:42 AM

There is nothing peaceful about a bunch of anarchist crazies trying to board an oil rig.Their unplanned actions could well disrupt critical operations and cause loss of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 02:54 AM

Environmentalists believe that the legitimate commerce of extracting oil from under the Arctic is likely to cause a catastrophe, so yes Greenpeace is trying to disrupt it by peaceful protest.

Whaling was legitimate commerce too, but I am glad that Greenpeace went out to disrupt the killing and raise awareness of what was going on.

Likewise atmospheric nuclear testing.

Likewise the potential destruction of the precarious Arctic ecosystems.
And for what?

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 11:28 PM

As someone who has spent decades on offshore platforms I can tell you that if a bunch of idiots tried to board without permission I would be extremely grateful to anyone that hauled their ar***s off to jail.
I suspect if the same tactics were tried in the north sea it would be seen as a potential terrorist attack and the response would be far more forceful.
I have no argument with greenpeace spreading their message but if their means of transmittal puts others at risk and breaks international law they deserve everything that they get.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:53 PM

Wikipedia has a definition of commerce that includes "commerce is an environment that affects the business prospects of an economy or nation-state.
The drilling platforms of the oil companies contribute to business prospects of nation-states, (in this instance Russia) hence interfering with their lawful activity is interference with commerce.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:52 PM

Well, Keith, I guess you're an equal opportunity apologist. Branching out fom the radical Zionists are we?

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:12 PM

No threat of violence from Greenpeace.
They do not interfere with commerce.
Just whaling and reckless oil exploitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: selby
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 12:38 PM

Part of a BBC report
Article 227 of Russia's penal code defines piracy as "an attack on a ship at sea or on a river, with the aim of seizing someone else's property, using violence or the threat of violence". It can be punished with a jail term of up to 15 years, depending on the gravity of the offence, and a fine of up to 500,000 roubles (£10,000; $15,000).

The full report
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24222392

You can decide for your self if they are or are not pirates but it seems the Russians have decided

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 12:32 PM

Greenpeace pirates endanger crews at sea, boarding vessels and interfering with commerce.
They are not recognized by legitimate conservation groups.

The closest comparable groups are Al Qaeda sponsored.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:07 AM

Greenpeace are not pirates.
They do not steal, take hostages or pillage.
They make only peaceful protest against environmental destruction.
I am with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 09:13 PM

The Russians are towing the pirates and their vessel to Murmansk.

Probably no more news releases until port is reached.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 10:08 AM

Get a clue, Keith. You're heading off into never-never land again.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 05:32 AM

Greenpeace are not pirates.
Non violent, peaceful protest is all that they do and have ever done.
There was no justification for threatening them with guns and knives.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 02:25 PM

Canada-
At present, licenses for part of offshore Yukon are under a work prohibition order.
Map of areas under license, and significant discovery licenses, etc.
From Northern Oil and Gas Annual Report-
www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 01:00 PM

A little stretch in a Siberian prison might teach them piracy doesn't pay.

bobad 21 Sept 13- moi aussi!

Canadian Arctic Offshore Status-

Some Canadian offshore rights in the Arctic Beaufort Sea (9000 square kilometers) have been sold to the small British Company, Franklin, which does not have the resources or the expertise to carry out any drilling. They are free to sell these rights to all comers, however.

Over 5 billions bbls of oil and 53 trillion cubic feet of gas are the potential, based on preliminary drilling that has taken place.

Chevron, BP and Exxon-Mobil have committed hundreds of millions to explore and develop their parcels in the Beaufort Sea.

The Arctic Ocean region soon will be a major producer of petroleum.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 11:48 AM

Hang ALL pirates! String 'em up and then gibbet them between two tides! Leave 'em up to teach other would-be pirates and mutineers a good lesson! Teach 'em like we taught Edward Teach and William Kydd! (Unless they're good lookin' women.)

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 04:10 AM

An old farmer here once said to me whether you look in a field and see a pile of shit or good manure depends on which side of the farm gate you are standing.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 03:42 AM

Yes.
Greenpeace are the good guys.
Who do you think will invest the most in avoiding pollution, Norway or Gazprom?

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 07:57 PM

Because of the Russian ship, The Potempkin, Russia has had a stormy relationship with Greenpeace who tried to stop the slaughter of whales.

Putin is hardly the harbinger of freedom and civil rights after his disgraceful condemnation of LGBT people. He reacted like a dictator to the Pussy Riot pranks and still carries the redolence of the KGB.

Greenpeace is calling attention to the problem of whale slaughter and environmental issues and though some may not approve of its techniques, no one else aside from Bill McKibben
and the KPL resistance is doing much. Greenpeace is bringing two issues into focus,
1. the environment and habitat for animals and 2. the repressive means that Putin uses to hammer opponents.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: bobad
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 06:23 PM

Moi aussi, j'adore la putain.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: selby
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 06:12 PM

Greenpeace, know and capitalise on the saying "There is no such thing as bad publicity" some of the acts they commit at sea is piracy. When the big boy hits back they do not like it. I also believe should the drilling be allowed? no, but greenpeaces' way is not my way
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: gnu
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 05:45 PM

Good point Q. And, as for all the misdirection in the news, yes, the Greenies attacked the Russian platform. I disagree with what they are doing but I also disagree with what them there Greenies are doing and I think the Russians have every right to defend thmeselves. Should the drilling even be allowed? No. Do you go about protesting that by attacking a Ruskie drilling platform? No.Does anyone really think that boarding another vessel at sea by force is even CLOSE to a good idea? News coverage? Yup. Bad news coverage? Fer sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 03:21 PM

The Norwegian state oil company has exploration and drilling blocks just to the west in the Barents-Pechora region of the Arctic coast.

Not well-known to North Americans, The Norwegian state oil company, Statoil, has billions in funds gained from their offshore drilling, and could afford to buy a British or American major with pocket change.

Any Norwegians aboard the Greenpeace vessel? Somehow I doubt it. Would Greenpeace activists be any more welcome aboard one of their platforms?

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 03:04 PM

The drilling platform is in the Pechora Sea, on the portion of the shelf claimed by Russia (Norwegian claims lie just to the west).

Under Russian law, the ship can be towed to a convenient salvage location and dismantled.
An equivalent location on the Canadian Arctic shelf would be the Beaufort Sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 01:03 PM

Et j'adore la poutine!

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 01:02 PM

The French blew one up, rather.

Also what BP did to the Gulf wasn't a spill, which means a contained amount was released instead of held. It was a breach of the ocean floor with unknown and possibly unlimited from the human lifespan standpoint possibility.

I would like to see what the Russians are saying in the international media. I shall have to go see.

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 04:02 PM

What do French fries topped with brown gravy and cheese curds have to do with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 04:00 PM

When are Greenpeace going to start protesting the reckless exploitation of undersea oil off the coast of California? Or for that matter, off the coast of Scotland?

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: selby
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 03:11 PM

Potin is in a bullish mood after getting his way in Syria. Where does Greenpeace think they rate in Putin's world very very insignificant I would suggest, so do not be disappointed if the greenpeace boat has an accident.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 02:41 PM

Weren't Greenpeace members repelled by the Russians while attempting to board the Russian vessel before the Russians boarded the Greenpeace ship?

Subject: RE: BS: Russians board Greenpeace
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 11:14 AM

It seems to me if you burn said resource in order to protest agaainst said resource then your credibility is totally lost.