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BS: Religion, which is the best one?
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:41 AM Another faith based school was shut down by inspectors in The UK yesterday I notice. Such a closure by inspectors was unprecedented and we still do not have the reason for it. I never said schools either when I pointed out your assertion that CofE aren't into creationism. Our discussion wasn't about schools, it was about the Creed and ethos of Christian cults. Creationism is not in the creed or ethos of RC or CofE churches. That is why they do not teach it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:55 AM ""The Catholic Church is supposed to inform believers, who then must make the final decision regarding their own lives."" That would seem, Joe, to be a very convenient and effective get out clause, worthy of the most unscrupulous corporate interests, absolving the Catholic Church from any responsibility for the behaviour of its followers, from users of birth control right up to child abusing priests. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:34 AM The one before the one you say was unprecedented was called Grindon Hall. Prior to Gove's new legislation freeing them from local authority control, the LEA closed it after inspecting it. You twisted my words to assume only OFSTED inspections. Even you could have googled to find it. It isn't difficult. I never said schools either when I pointed out your assertion that CofE aren't into creationism. Our discussion wasn't about schools, it was about the Creed and ethos of Christian cults. You know, the more you try to ridicule others to look clever, the bigger arse you appear. Is it that important to make anybody who questions your cult look an idiot? It's not as if you manage it in the first place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:53 AM Another faith based school was shut down by inspectors in The UK yesterday I notice. Such a closure by inspectors was unprecedented, and we still do not know what was wrong. It has reopened. Creationism is no part of the creed or ethos of the RC or C of E Churches. That is why they do not teach it. I really am not trying to make you look an idiot. I am sure you would correct me too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:14 AM by David Allison Published on the 10 September 2013 HUNDREDS of pupils at Sunderland's first free school will start this year's term late after a £3million extension wasn't finished in time. Bosses say that contractors have not delivered "a safe building or site" in time for the start of the new term at Grindon Hall Christian School, in Pennywell. A 14-classroom primary school building is not yet completed, with a drive and one-way system leading up to the Nookside site yet to be done. Senior children were to start back at Grindon Hall on Thursday, with primary school children originally due back next Monday. Parents of more than 500 children who attend the school were told about the decision in a letter. Pupils will now return on Monday, September 23. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:20 AM A Muslim free school in Derby has been warned to stop favouring men and boys over women and girls or face closure. The condition is one of several set out by Minister for Education Lord Nash in a letter to the chair of the Al-Madinah Education Trust. The letter states changes must be made by the 15 October, including "compliance with equality legislation" or the school's funding will be pulled. The school closed for a week citing "health and safety issues". It closed on the first day of an Ofsted inspection but the headmaster insisted it was due to "a health and safety issue". In a statement issued by Ofsted, to "clarify media reports" about why the school had closed, HM Inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw said: "Inspectors discovered that staff records showing whether they were cleared to supervise children were either missing or incomplete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:30 AM In response to my statement that the Catholic Church is supposed to inform believers, who then must make the final decision regarding their own lives, Don(Wyziwyg)T says: That would seem, Joe, to be a very convenient and effective get out clause, worthy of the most unscrupulous corporate interests, absolving the Catholic Church from any responsibility for the behaviour of its followers, from users of birth control right up to child abusing priests. C'mon, Don, what are you trying to say? To my mind, you're just not making sense. What I said, is how things actually work in real life. People DO make the final decisions regarding their own lives. Even if they happen to profess a religious belief, they are not puppets controlled by outside forces. Each individual has final responsibility and culpability for his own actions. And yes, it has always been Catholic teaching that each individual has final responsibility and culpability for his own actions. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 08 Oct 13 - 11:41 AM And for those who have the sneaking suspicion Keith could have given Pravda a run for it's pre 1990 money for the selective quotes there, perhaps anyone interested in seeing if he is a liar or not may wish to Google the school together with creationism and read the results. The BBC is a good one as it normally has no axe to grind. If you can be arsed enough to and you agree with him then I apologise for being a thick twat with no idea and I might as well buy a tambourine. Keith. If you could email me a copy of the current CofE Bible I'd be grateful. The only one I could lay my hands on starts with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. " perhaps the non creationist one may even replace my present bedtime reading? Bill Brysons latest one about 1927 and planes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:49 PM As Joe has told you, thinking Christians do not regard the bible as a Science textbook. It really is not part of CofE or RC creed or ethos. We accept cosmology and evolution. Sorry to make an idiot of you again, but you ask for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:15 PM I can really only offer a few thoughts, ed ,from anecdotal evidence and would not claim that they would be validated statistically. some people leave a church after an upset, or other personal reason but still retain their faith otherwise. it would be my expectation that their faith would continue to inform their morality. those that leave their faith altogether sometimes do so in tamden with disobedience to biblical morality. for any that lose their faith for intellectual reasons [I understand that Piltdown man fraud did some damage, for eg] I suspect morality may slide over time, but again that is not an assertion. I don't think I could speak for other faiths, except to observe that many of them are tied to their culture and so perhaps MAY not be so deeply committed. of course the same can apply to Christian affiliation , and mafia may be a case in point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:01 PM Ok. Idiot to idiot. When you say "we" how many CofE Christians do you mean? All of them? All of them with your huge intellect? The boutique ones? You wriggle out of corners with slippery ease but saying CofE congregation don't believe in God as the creator is wonderful. I do get to the occasional wedding, funeral and christening and I don't think the faithful reckon the vicar is coming out with tripe. I don't think the vicar does either. It's rather silly praying if you just use an old book to guide your thoughts. Who are you praying to? And why? Perhaps you might ask The Archbishop of Canterbury for advice here, as your waffle falls at the first hurdle. Doesn't even get past the first sentence of the book you base your cult on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:50 PM Yes, Musket, all Bibles name God as creator. Next question? Almost all Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe in God as creator. How God created, is another question. Moderate to progressive religious people generally think that God created through the wonderful, natural, miraculous process we call evolution - that God was somehow part of that process. I believe that God is in the essence of everything I encounter, the unseen spiritual side of everything that is. And being a Christian, I believe that somehow, that unseen God is fully embodied in Jesus Christ - and partly embodied in all we encounter. Many Christians call that the mystery of the incarnation. Progressive Christians won't fight about that, and generally won't proselytize - and they don't want this taught in tax-paid schools (I suppose that's different in the UK, since at least some religious schools are supported by taxes). Nonetheless, it is meaningful and sacred to them. If you want to fight about it, then you'll have to go to the fundamentalists. They'll give you a run for your money. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Oct 13 - 01:13 AM The Archbishop will tell you that he believes in evolution and the big bang, and so will any vicar. You misjudge us Musket. You speak from profound ignorance. You make yourself an idiot without help from me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Oct 13 - 02:47 AM To deal with another of your misconceptions, what you described as the "closure by inspectors of another faith school" was in fact the unprecedented closure by inspectors of the al Madinah school. It is also unprecedented that the school has been told its funding will be withdrawn unless it sacks the head, complies with equality laws and improves its education. What you put up as a precedent was a school that was not closed at all. It was just late opening because building work over ran. If you entered into discussion instead of attack mode, you could become informed without making an idiot of yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:33 AM No. I don't misunderstand at all. The chair of my viva panel was a lay preacher yet he dug deep into my basis for certain laws of physics. I see no problem with traditional faith and reality. I love how you think I do. I'll tell you what I don't understand. I don't understand church wanting any influence over society. If you can pick and choose then so can others. I wanted to choose a church wedding and as the common link of everybody on Mudcat.org is tradition, you can understand why. I refused to ask forgiveness for my sins and I had been married before. So what? I said. Something to do with the Bible apparently. My granddaughter is about ready for that family get together known as a christening. All the older family expect it. My lad and his wife don't attend the local church so they had to attend a set of classes where they can learn to be good parents in the eyes of the church. He didn't want to do that as he was brought up not to be a hypocrit. Looks like no christening then. Haven't told him his mother and I had to attend them so we did. Decided it was all bollocks but didn't want to upset my Gran. My point therefore is; Don't talk about picking and choosing then decry people for trying the same. The vast majority of church weddings and christenings? Not a bloody believer amongst them. However, we have tradition. Many people want a church setting, a bit of Charles Wesley and a few bob for the bell ringers. But only clever Christians like Joe and Keith are good enough to pick and choose it seems. Rational people who enjoy the traditional public service churches supply have to tell lies in order to do so. Joe. You asked me to talk to the fundamentalists? Fine. Their honesty will be a breath of fresh air. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Richard Bridge Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:55 AM Well, I see a lot of argument about the follies of Xtianity - without even getting into the sexism it seems of so many of its cult members, but pretty well bugger all other discussion of other religions. I tend to disapprove of most organised religions, but might like to learn more about Buddhism, Shinto, or Confucianism, not to mention western paganism (excluding simple Buffyism). I think I am right that the oldest religion (of those widely followed) in the world is IFA, a Yoruba religion, but what I have found while looking about it is some concentration on its structure, but little of its commandments. It seems difficult to give it much credibility given its apparent ageism and sexism with regard to allegedly evil witches, and its apparent belief in the existence of (but hostility to) allegedly evil sorcerers. One IFA adherent I know asserts that the Xtian trilogy belief is based on a misunderstanding or distortion of IFA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:09 AM I was married in church a few weeks ago. We are both divorcees. CofE says this. Baptism Everyone is welcome to have a baptism at a christening service in their parish church. There are around 10, 000 babies and children baptized in the Church of England every month. Every service is a time of joyful celebration and thanksgiving. During the christening service your baby will be baptized. Your child is precious to you and precious to God. At baptism you make a decision to start your child on a journey of faith. The church and the Godparents support the family and the child in this decision. Read more about Baptism Weddings Bride and Groom marriage blessing Today more than a quarter of all marriages in England take place before God in the traditional setting of a Church of England church. You're welcome to marry in church whatever your beliefs, whether or not you are baptised and whether or not you go to church. Read more about Weddings http://www.churchofengland.org/weddings-baptisms-funerals.aspx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:34 AM In which case, Guildford Cathedral isn't a CofE church as they refused to let us marry despite my mother in law being one of their congregation and my wife being of that parish. Worksop Priory Church will not baptise my granddaughter unless my son and his wife lie about their lack of belief. The same church heard me say whatever was needed to get my son christened almost 30 years ago. Some will some won't. Simple. This is what you get with boutique religion. Some vicars actually believe it all. Fine. But they put their interpretation above their managers and policies. That's what is wrong. Again. Picking and choosing what bits of your Bible you feel least embarrassed about? Fine but don't expect respect for it. Don't expect normal people to say, you know what? We should let their leaders influence law still. We should allow objections to Sunday events on religious grounds. We should agree to restrict commerce so as not to upset the buggers. By the way. I forwarded a paper copy of the above to Southwell Diocese with my complaint and they pointed to the overall clause "at the discretion of the vicar. " Hypocritical twats. Yet they bend over to accommodate bigots who won't be managed by a woman or those who see gay marriage as obscene. Keep chiselling for relevance. It's too late. Education has evolved. Normal people see no reason to keep pretending. Younger people never did. Still, if you catch them young enough, impressionable enough or vulnerable enough, you still might have enough to pay for the electric. .. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 09 Oct 13 - 06:05 PM I remember reading a prayer letter from CMI which mentioned a vicar hosting a creation event ,and conceding that this was brave of him given the general unbelief of the biblical account among Anglican clerics. it is not true that all catholics accept evolutionism. there is in fact a catholic creationist movement [Kolbe institute, I think]. the pope may compromise the bible personally but I understand that compromised position is not mandatory teaching. I,m sure joe will tell us if i'm wrong. musket, as does dawkins, can see the inconsistency of compromising the scriptures. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:41 PM Well, Musket - The Romans see baptism as the sacrament of initiation into membership in the church. If the parents have no intention to raise the child Catholic, most parishes will refuse to baptize the child. They view receiving a sacrament with no religious intent, as hypocrisy. I agree. Musket sez: But only clever Christians like Joe and Keith are good enough to pick and choose it seems. Rational people who enjoy the traditional public service churches supply have to tell lies in order to do so. Nobody's forcing you to tell lies - you should just forgo the ritual if you don't believe in it, and don't expect the church to perform a ritual for you if it means nothing to you. As for picking and choosing beliefs, uniformity of belief is not as important to Catholics, as it may be to some others. The basic Catholic belief is the Nicene Creed, and almost all Catholics accept the Creed without question (but with various interpretations) - almost everything else is open to discussion and to a variety of perspectives, just like in real life. Right-wing Catholics have their religious litmus tests and rant on about how so-and-so isn't really Catholic, but the official position is far more open to a much broader variety of opinions. On the other hand, churches take their religious rituals seriously, as expressions of faith. People who want to receive such rituals, can rightly be expected to express some modicum of faith. Pete, there is no required Catholic belief about the origin of the world. Catholics are free to take a literalist view of the biblical story of creation. Some do, but most American and European Catholics think creation took place by evolution - and evolution is what is usually taught in Catholic schools. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Oct 13 - 12:23 AM I'm not finished yet, Musket. You pushed one of my hot buttons. Although it may seem important to you, many churches (including the Catholic Church) do not require uniformity of thinking as a requirement for membership. Outsiders and right-wingers may see this as a requirement, but it is not. What is required, is that diverse people join together in faith and in mutual respect as a community to worship God in ritual. And if you don't want to worship God, then you have no business demanding services of a church. It's up to the church to decide what services it wants to provide to non-members. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Oct 13 - 01:34 AM ...and yet another thing, Musket - you cannot define my faith in fundamentalist terms, because I am not a fundamentalist. What is important to me, is my relationship with God, and the prayer and ritual and social justice action that go along with that. For the fundamentalist, what's most important is belief, adhering to certain doctrines. That's a bird of a different color. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Ed T Date: 10 Oct 13 - 06:47 AM Pete, a point related to your last post: I believe there is a difference between the terms "Catholic" and Roman Catholic. Anglicans and some of the Orthodox religious groups consider themselves as Catholic, but do not accept the pope as the head of their church. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:35 AM I don't know what the matter is with me. I have just posted on Christian Persecution in agreement with Jim Carroll; and now here I am agreeing with Joe on a matter, if not of religion, yet of the rights of the religious. Why should churches provide facilities for non-believers to show off? It seems to me the height of vile manners to lie to the authorities of a Church in order to persuade them to marry you, when the ritual means nothing to you but a bit of agreeable ostentation. People who do that should be ashamed, and I think the Church [any church] quite right to decline to provide facilities for what is nothing but a showy opportunity to wear tall hats and white lace for people to whom the actual faith-content of the ritual means nothing. I say again ~~ it's rude of them even to ask. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,ME Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:58 AM I was devastated to find out my wife was having an affair; but, by turning to religion, I was soon able to come to terms with the whole thing. I converted to Islam, and we're stoning her in the morning! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 10 Oct 13 - 11:07 AM There are organizations that organize non-religious ceremonies, as "traditionally" as desired and possible, e.g. the BHA. However, many customers are dissatisfied and prefer a priest of however questionable intellectual and moral authority, and talent as a maître d'. The reason seems quite clear to me, but unfathomable to many "humanists" who are not interested in what humankind, including themselves, really is like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Oct 13 - 11:17 AM No, Grishka, not in my case. I can well see the attraction; but I don't think it should be factitiously misused. I find that peculiarly insulting to those to whom it does have real meaning. The fact that 'humankind ... really is like' that doesn't make it OK IMO. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 10 Oct 13 - 11:50 AM MtheGM, I was not making any kind of moral judgment. My point was simply that some self-styled humanists do not analyze their own needs correctly. I could write a lot more if asked, though my experience with you is that you do not really appreciate comprehensive answers ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 10 Oct 13 - 02:40 PM and I believe you are quite right, ed. the orthodox and anglo catholics adopt some RC ritual and belief not common to most protestants. in addition the word "catholic" means universal, I believe ,and in that sense applies to all Christians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: sciencegeek Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:56 PM Joe, correct me if I'm wrong... but what I remember from Catholic school teachings was that God gave mankind free will - that double edged sword that gets us into all kinds of mischief. Instead of studying the bible - new or old testament- we used the catechism. In my case it was write the question three times and the answer five for homework. If it had the imprematur, then it meant it was pope or cardinal approved for belief. So we were taught what they thought was correct beliefs and behavior.. but it was still up to us to follow or not follow. And the need for confession was to wash away the sins we'd committed, since it was automatically presumed that we humans would sucumb to temptation. Simplified greatly, but still on track I think. It was the mortal sins that had us scared silly... missing church or eating meat on Friday that meant a one way ticket to hell if we died before confessing & getting absolved. At least it scared me until I got a bit older and admitted to myself that it all seemed like superstition to me and not anything that brought comfort or enlightenment into my life. More of a royal pain in the ass that I wanted no part of anymore. But back to RC who decide for themselves what to follow... I think that the acceptance of free will is important. I don't recall any of the gospels including the directives found in the catechism. This all came later and only the belief in papal infallability regarding church teachings gives them any validity. in the opinion of this atheist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Ed small t Date: 10 Oct 13 - 04:17 PM A good logical point MtheGM. A case in point: I seem to recall that this is not required in Canadian law. For example, no minister or priest is required to marry a gay person,or make their facilities available for such a union, if it goes against their rights. So, it only seems logical that Christian churches and rights should be limited to "the faithful" I doubt if in the USA that civil rights organizations are required to provide "equal access" to their sites or events to the KKK organization (or, vice versa). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Ed T Date: 10 Oct 13 - 05:19 PM I am also confused sciencegeek,(if I take a bit of liberty to include you in that category). I was raised on a RC diet - and attended all that is required - but I am (proudly) no longer an organized RC affiliate (but, darn, it is difficult to shake the RC upbringing. I have turned to a few similar groups for religious insight, which I enjoy. I suspect that I am not alone. The "local interpretation" of what the RC church stands for is quite different, as defined by local differences and time, as the concept of the individual and the church is evolving. What Joe O describes, seems quite foreign to what I am told by local Rc's? Consistancy, maybe not? I suspect that this leaves a lot of people confused, as to what this church actually stands for, including me? Hopefully, the new leadership may make it clearer for "the wayward Christian flock" to feel comfortable returning. But,I suspect it is more likely not so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: sciencegeek Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:02 PM well, Ed... I only spent 8 years in Catholic school which ended in 1964, so I have no clue what changes have occurred since they went from masses said in Latin to English. but they did make a big deal out of having free will. They have a different catechism now than I did, I think, as well. I am an atheist because it is the outlook most compatible with me as a person. I expect that there are those who gravitate towards some kind of spiritual belief that works for them. this thread topic is highly subjective and impossible to answer to the satisfaction of all. it assumes a definitive answer where none can exist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Bill D Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:25 PM Just found this: "It is conceivable that religion may be morally useful without being intellectually sustainable. John Stuart Mill |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Oct 13 - 08:17 PM Before Vatican II, Catholics did not study the Bible, so the idea developed that Catholics relied on a catechism instead of the Bible. But as I studied the Bible in later years, I learned that many, many things in that catechism came straight from the Bible, or from the Nicene Creed that is held by most Christians. There are a few Catholic beliefs not in the Bible or Nicene Creed, but very few and usually not central beliefs. Now, there is a vast amount of theology built upon the Bible and Creed, but that's explanation, not doctrine. The current Catechism of the Catholic Church was published in 1992. A revised edition was published in 1997, including stronger language opposing capital punishment. The previous catechism, the Roman Catechism (or Catechism of the Council of Trent) was published in 1566. The "Baltimore Catechism" and other popular question-and-answer catechisms were based on the Roman Catechism. Both of the major catechisms follow the same four-part outline: The Creed, Sacraments and Worship, The Commandments, and Prayer. I find that current Catholic teaching is quite consistent with those questions and answers I memorized back in the 1950s - I just didn't understand all the implications of the questions and answers at the time, and I find that many people have some very distorted understandings of what they learned as kids in catechism class. Many Catholics don't really understand their religion, especially since they have had no education in their faith as adults. Oftentimes, I find that Catholics in the U.S. talk more like evangelical Christians than Catholics, because Evangelical Christianity rules the airwaves. There are many good Catholic periodicals, but not many Catholics read them. The right-wingers have the corner on Catholic electronic media. Most "Catholic" Websites I've seen are extremely right-wing - they bought up catholic.org and catholic.com early on. The Jesuits and Franciscans have good Websites, but hard-to-find URLS. There is a nationwide Catholic radio network in the U.S.; and Mother Angelica's godawful EWTN (Eternal Word Television Network) is also nationwide and very popular. All of these present themselves as true Catholicism, but Catholicism is much wider than they pretend it to be. I find the Catechism and most official documents from the Catholic Church to be quite satisfying - but the right-wingers interpret them with a lot of right-wing "spin." Ed T sez: The "local interpretation" of what the RC church stands for is quite different, as defined by local differences and time, as the concept of the individual and the church is evolving. What Joe O describes, seems quite foreign to what I am told by local Rc's? Consistancy, maybe not? What do they say, Ed? I will admit to being on the progressive side of Roman Catholicism, but what I say is generally consistent with what I was taught in a Catholic seminary in the 1960s. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Bill D Date: 10 Oct 13 - 08:29 PM speaking of those who do not fully understand their own religion... I wonder if it was a Catholic boy who, when I was in 3rd or 4th grade, told me: "It's a sin to eat meat on Friday!". It kinda worried me..until I finally asked someone... who said it WASN'T... which was one of my very early experiences of wondering how several different 'truths' could all be right. I think I was in high school before I finally began to how it all worked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:08 PM I was going to type this up for you to illustrate how hard it is to teach the Catholic religion to kids and for them to get it straight, but electricscotland.com told it so well.
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Musket between courses Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:41 PM Think on this then Joe. If churches relied on people who genuinely had any form of belief, they would have been all turned into bingo halls years ago. It is the hypocrisy of accepting money for weddings, funerals and christenings that keeps their flaky stake in most communities. In The UK at any rate. To say you have to say you believe in things that are intellectually abhorrent to you in order to have a public service performed is to misread the tolerance normal people indulge the Church with. Here of all places, the wish for tradition should be understood. 99% of christenings are nothing to do with belief and everything to do with rites of passage in the tradition of your community. I repeat. pete is someone I fundamentally disagree with but he seems to be the only one here with faith you could argue with, because he is consistent and doesn't keep changing the menu before the food arrives. To pick and choose is fine but it loses any sense of meaning to the rest of us and makes any stance on religious grounds meaningless. So. Who's for a raging debate on stamp collecting? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Oct 13 - 11:28 PM Musket, when I was a kid in the 1950s, social pressure required people to belong to a church and to attend services regularly. There were a lot of people in church who didn't want to be there, and their unwilling presence and empty participation detracted from the spirit of the congregation. That social obligation to belong to a church no longer exists, and I think that has done a lot to improve the spirit of congregations at church services. The rituals are no longer empty, because the people in the pews are there because they want to participate. Churches have reemphasized the original meaning of their rituals, and often require education before a sacrament is given to an individual. And yes, sacraments are refused to people who are unwilling to make a faith commitment. You want it to be the 1950s again, when you could take advantage of religious practices when they were appealing to you, without making a religious commitment. And what, specifically, is this "picking and choosing" you accuse me of? That I reject simplistic misconceptions of Catholic teachings? That I, as a Catholic with a theology degree, take a stand on issues that are debated within the Catholic Church instead of waiting to be told what to think? What is it? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 11 Oct 13 - 08:32 AM Musket, for the slim chance that we learn something new here, would you please tell us what you think of the Humanist ceremonies I mentioned upthread - preferably abstracting from financial considerations? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: sciencegeek Date: 11 Oct 13 - 08:54 AM this geek has been a science fiction fan since before she could read, and gravitated towards those stories that presents ideas and forced you to think and examine your way of thinking about different things. And the television series Babylon 5 by J. Michael Straczynski was one of the few that actually did an intelligent job dealing with religious thinking. At least moved it from dogma & superstition to a philosophical examination of the universe & our possible roles in it. I'm sure others could expound further on this than I can. The alternate universe series of 1634 by Eric Flint goes into incredible detail regarding some of the various Christian faiths - and usually more than I can handle in a single sitting because it just brings to mind the arguments re: "how many angels can sit on the head of a pin" - something I always regarded as a futile waste of time. But it does hi-lite some of the historical/cultural bachground of our western civilization. I bring this up because the eastern relgions have not been mentioned at all in the thread... the relgious beliefs of way more than half of the current human population has been ignored. I find that facinating, she says in her best Spock like voice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:27 AM One to watch out for? Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ' Biblical scholars will be appearing at the 'Covert Messiah' Conference at Conway Hall in London on the 19th of October to present this controversial discovery to the British public. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST Date: 11 Oct 13 - 01:47 PM Joe. I have no issue with anyone over their faith. None whatsoever. Your commentaries on these threads mentioning your own interpretation are at any level refreshingly honest. Ok. I fail to see how I personally could handle the dichotomy of conformity and personal take, hence my pick and choose comments. However, increasingly on these threads there has been a "because I am a Christian" or "Christians get a raw deal. " you yourself have been known to question them. If what constitutes being a Christian is personal and somewhat variable, my point is that judgement from a "Christian" angle is meaningless. Some, not you, need to stop using their faith as a temporal tool. You need, in my humble opinion, to stop criticising other interpretations of Christianity as being embarrassing because it's their word too. Grishka. I know nothing really of humanist ceremonies. I know very little of masonic ceremonies, boy scout ceremonies or many religious ceremonies. The humanist movement is, I believe, saying you you can enjoy a nice garden without seeing fairies at the bottom of it. As to ceremonies, it seems like the organisations calling themselves atheist organisations to me. If we didn't have religion, someone would invent it. Not every religion can be right. I just think there is one more preaching bollocks than most believers do. Perhaps if I understood why you asked me? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 11 Oct 13 - 03:12 PM Musket (GUEST), the BHS claims to have no ideological agenda other than being non-religious - quite differently from Masons etc. My question was just generally whether you would prefer ceremonies from such an organization to the corresponding church ceremonies. (The international "Humanist" movement does have a history, but let us disregard that for the moment. Dawkins is not a member but he and the BHS speak very favourably of one another.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 11 Oct 13 - 03:18 PM Just reading that Dawkins is the vice president of the BHA (British Humanist Association). My previous information was dated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:45 PM Such ceremonies are, for me personally, traditional. Hence a church is the best place. I thoroughly enjoyed a family wedding the other year. Lots of King James style thee and thou from the vicar. I had heard of all the hymns (mostly written by my near neighbour Charles Wesley) my wife helped the locals with the bell ringing and the organist had heard of Bach. Conversely, a christening I went to last year had electric guitar, drums, bass, flashing lights, a vicar called Steve in a Hawiian shirt, various members of the congregation getting the microphone crying saying "thank you Jesus for being wonderful" and the words of the "hymns" seemed to consist of "he is great, live for him" ad nauseum as a repeating chant. In case you didn't notice the subliminal message, the words were on the wall in a PowerPoint presentation. The former was a joy, the latter a fair shot at Dante's Inferno. A humanist ceremony? About as relevant as the born again idiots who love their Lord but seem disdainful of tradition. My first wedding was in a church. Loved the whole experience. My second wedding was in a hotel. Loved the whole experience. For the religious friends and family, it was sad that the church they love prevented them from enjoying a Church wedding, and we would have liked it too. They had no ceremonies to help pay the bills that day, I am reliably informed. Their loss. If they think people use churches for traditional ceremony due to having an imaginary friend, then this Dawkins that God botherers are fascinated about seems to have a point in the title God Delusion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Oct 13 - 02:03 AM For the religious friends and family Do they know how much contempt you feel towards anyone with faith? Not just non-belief but the rabid contempt you have expressed so fully here for such "morons." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Oct 13 - 02:35 AM I am as convinced an atheist as anyone, Ian. But I also value both sincerity & courtesy: and I feel your attitude that churches are a useful sort of public utility for you to disport yourself in fashionably, because you think it "the best place", is an affront to the sincerity of its true worshippers, and a gross discourtesy to them on your part. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 12 Oct 13 - 04:46 AM I guess you can get a "humanist" wedding as traditionally as you want, with colourful gowns (worn by actors), bells, and whistles. Just with the G word and all theology avoided. Even KJ excerpts would be available, e.g. from the Canticles. It is also not hard to rent a building with neo-gothic windows. Would that suit you, Musket? If not, what else do you want for a wedding? If it is a real priest and a religious ceremony, why so? Dawkins is prominent because he is hailed by the atheist movement (including the BHA who feature him on the top of their home page with as friendly a look as he can manage). I personally am also interested in his former scientific work and the connections between science and ideology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one? From: GUEST,Ed T Date: 12 Oct 13 - 01:42 PM ""I think that the idea of "obedience to authority" in the Catholic Church has often been overstated, and sometimes understood as "obedience to the Pope." It has long been Catholic teaching that obedience to one's conscience takes precedence over any other authority. The Catholic Church is supposed to inform believers, who then must make the final decision regarding their own lives. At least in current times, official statements by the Catholic Church on moral issues, are rarely, if ever, stated in the form of commands - although the press and the right-wingers often reinterpret such statements in the form of absolute commands. ""What do they say, Ed (Canadian RCs)? I will admit to being on the progressive side of Roman Catholicism, but what I say is generally consistent with what I was taught in a Catholic seminary in the 1960s."" Joe, a read of the RC generational survey indicates that it is an "overapplication of representativeness" to put all people in the RC church church in one grouping. The survey (which I can't certify that it was conducted well) indicates significant generational differences in the "adherence to the church's authority" (which seems reasonable to me). Since there are social and cultural difference among nations, it is not also "reasonable" to at least consider that there may also be similar differences among RC members from the many diverse RC countries (note that I have not seen any related research). I am not sure just how reflective the comments I have heard from friends and relatives who are practicing RC's (none in the youngest generation noted in the survey). However, they indicate a greater acceptance of the authority of the church than you indicate from your experience above? If accurate, this may be a reflection of the difference in acceptance of authority between the USA and Canada? However, I have detect much frustration with the many sexual misconduct scandals by those in a position of trust(some may be more recent than in the USA). Generational differences-survey |
