BS: The Pope's Survey

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 09:04 PM

I have twenty-one (21) semester hours as taught in a post-Vatican II environment. This includes such courses as "Marriage and the Family", "Sacramental Theology", "The Documents of Vatican II", and "Social Theology" (before it ended up on the Vatican's 'naughty' list).

I have a further twenty-four (24) semester hours of philosophy, taught I feel in a neutral manner, from that same Catholic college. This includes courses in ethics, existentialism, classical Greek philosophy, and logic.

I have 12 years of pre-Vatican II Catholic religious teaching, and two years of Latin.

I have no idea of the contents of "Gaudium et spes" or "Familiaris consortio", even after 40 years of marriage. I have a low regard for "Humanae vitae." And I wish that neither survey would use the phrase "cohabitation ad experimentum" as it is a technical, rather than commonly understood, term.

After reviewing the UK version of the survey I agree with Joe. More, I feel that it is slanted and can only produce skewed data (yes, I studied Statistics in that Catholic college as well as other places). As an essay-type survey it will be extremely difficult to use and interpret and as a result it will end up meaning whatever the researchers think it means. The US (non-bishop) survey is far superior, using as it does Ligert scales and other statistically valid techniques.

I hope that enough Catholics participate that a statistically viable sample is achieved...assuming that the "official" survey can be understood at all.

Subject: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 07:18 PM

Somebody asked me about the Pope's survey in a personal message. I realize that there are people at Mudcat that seek to prevent rational discussion of religious issues because they are certain that all religion is bad and all religious people are stupid, but nonetheless I think that this is a good thing to talk about.

I won't reveal the name of the person who sent me the personal message, but this is what he said:

I assume you have heard about the survey described here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24951677

That the survey is taking place at all is fantastic, but I find the questions asked in the UK version troublesome in their obscurity and slant (see link within the article). However that's me: If it hasn't happened already I presume there will be a US version, and I'd be grateful if you could send me a link to that when it is available.

Here's a link to the UK survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FamilySynod2014

---

Here's how I responded:

I wish this were something we could talk about openly and honestly on a Mudcat thread, because it's an interesting subject. I like the idea of the survey - but when I first looked at the UK survey, my reaction was, "Oooh, I don't like this." The language is juridical, and I don't like being forced into talking of my faith in juridical terms. Our right-wing legalists will feel right at home with this language, but this isn't the language that normal people speak.
But if I were given the opportunity, I sure as hell would answer the survey, even if I had to re-word it in my terms.

But the Catholic Bishops of the United States are still discussing what they will do with the survey, and I have the feeling that they will have a decision in the year 2525, if man is still alive (obscure musical tie).

Since it was first published in about 1970, maybe earlier, I've been a subscriber to the National Catholic Reporter, a weekly newspaper that is often not highly favored by the Powers That Be in the Catholic Church. They had a very interesting article on the survey: (click for NCR Article).
Be sure to take a look at the questionnaire the lay people have developed: (click for survey)

Note that this US survey is not official, that it's prepared by left-wing American lay Catholics with no approval from American bishops (of whom, in general, I have a rather low opinion). It's basically the same survey you have in the UK, without the juridical language. I could answer this one, and I'm going to do my best to get others to submit their answers.

I'm glad you asked me about this. I was really upset that the U.S. bishops were not going to give us the opportunity to reply. I'm glad that a coalition of groups has chosen to bypass the bishops and publish a well-worded translation of the questionnaire.

-Joe-

The majority of current Catholic bishops were appointed by John Paul II, who was phenomenally popular but very much the Slavic conservative. The long reign of John Paul II did much to dismantle the advances of the Second Vatican Council, much to my dismay. I liked Benedict/Ratzinger, but his intellectual approach didn't set many people on fire. The new pope, Francis, is just my kinda guy. I hope he holds the seat long enough to bring things around to a more compassionate, positive perspective.

-Joe-