What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?

Subject: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 09:45 AM

I'm curious as to know what exactly 'he twirled at the pin' means. The phrase appears in numerous songs.

It invariably occurs when our protaganist is approaching a 'maiden's bower' and can obviously be updated to 'he rang the doorbell'

My query is, what exactly is a 'pin' and why would you need to 'twirl' it?

In the DT database, a modernisation is given for the song 'Glenkindie' the meaning being explained as 'turning the latch.' However, in most songs, twirling the pin, seems to be an attempt to be heard rather than a way of sneaking in.

My dictionary, which is usually pretty good at giving archaic definitions, doesn't help.

I could understand ringing at a bell, or a bell-pull. But a pin?

Any ideas?

Thanks

Ed

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 10:01 AM

Some sorts of door latches have a piece of string through a hole, that when pulled, lifts the latch within. Sometimes, to stop it being opened, the string is withdrawn through the hole. To help thread the sting back in the morning or whenever, the string is tied or spliced to a piece of metal, a spike or something known as a cotter pin. Sometimes this is stuck into the door outside, or through an eyelet. To open a door that has its string on a pin through the eyelet, you have to twist the pin, like winding a spindle, this twirls the string, the latch lifts and in you go.. I know this sounds complicated and obtuse, but it's how we used to open the shed door on my grandfathers' farm to let the cats out into the barn. The cats could jump to the latch and would quite often pull the string out, then play with it and break the latch, so Granfer spliced a pin to it, and stuck it in the door, so the cats couldn't pull it through...

LTS

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 10:55 AM

Thanks for that Liz

As I said before though, loads of songs have 'twirling the pin' as a method of alerting the 'maiden' as to the guy's presence, rather that as a way of getting in.

Ed

embarrassed that he can't spell protagonist...

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 12:04 PM

goodness - I can't even spell 'than'...

Have just listened to Martin Carthy's 'Jack Orion' (a version of Glenkindie) Toward the start of the song, someone twirls at the pin. Later a different character 'twirls at the ring' Given my limited knowledge of bell-pull over that last few hundred years, this seems more reasonable. Is a 'pin' simply a synonym for a 'ring?'

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 12:08 PM

When you pull on the string, the latch goes straight up with a sudden noise. When you are twiddling it, or twisting it round the pin for a protracted length of time the latch rattles, so the person knows you are coming. The cats always knew when a person was walking past and pausing, or walking past and stopping to open the door, because as soon as the latch started to rattle, there was a half dozen paws reaching out from under the door...

LTS

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: wildlone
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:36 PM

In the 17th cent [maybe before]doors did not have knockers as such but a place that was carved, a bit like a file and you would "scratch"on it to make a noise.Ihave seen such carving on my travels, unfortunatly I cant remember where.
Just an idea .wl.

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: Allan S
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 06:00 PM

17 th cent knockers on a door? I thought only girls had knockers

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: Judy Cook
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 07:34 PM

"Twirl" is a variant (chiefly Scottish) of "tirl" (also chiefly Scottish) which means to make a rattling sound. When we were visiting some old fortified houses in Scotland, I seem to recall being shown a device on the outside of a door that was a verticle piece of metal with spiral ridges (a twisted "pin") mounted perhaps an inch or three out. On the pin was a ring that was free to move up and down, so that one could move the ring up and down and produce a rattling sound that would transmit to the inside and announce a visitor...."twirling" or "tirling" the ring, or the pin. .. as we find in so many of the old ballads. My memory is a little hazy, but perhaps others can refine this recollection.

--Judy Cook

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: Murray on Saltspring
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 07:47 PM

Yes--to "tirl at the pin" is to make a noise at the door--not to unlatch it, because when a lover tirls, his truelove rises to let him in, e.g. The thing on the door is called I think a "risp", from the sound made when it is scraped.

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 09:00 PM

Judy and Murray,

Many thanks for your help. I genuinely really appreciate it.

I was, given the amount of rubbish, about to give up on Mudcat. Good to know that intelligent, well informed people are still out there.

Thanks again,

Ed

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 09:16 AM

Ah yes, but if it weren't for people posting a pile of poo, a lot of us intelligent people wouldn't be here, I for one only got onto this for the sillier threads, and never got a lot of response for my more erudite submissions. Whereas, my postings for things like 'cat farts','favourite insults' and 'similies' has resulted in three propositions and a chocolate promise.... Plus giving others a good laugh at my expense.

LTS

Glad you found out your answer though, after all, that's what this is for...

Subject: RE: What does 'twirled at the pin' mean?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 04:37 PM

And many of us read a lot of threads we don't post to, just because we learn something in the reading. F'r instance, I hadn't a clue what "twirling the pin" could mean and now I've learned a great deal about that imagery. And will look for more postings on the subject.

If you ever do post and don't feel that you're getting an answer, refresh the thread a couple of times and see if someone notices it then. Sometimes it takes a while, but if you're patient, you can get just about any musical question answered.

Thanks,

WyoWoman