BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 07:13 AM

"Don't care what anyone says, I think she's great."
In 1998 Margaret Thatcher organised a rally in support of mass murderer Augusto Pinochet in Kensington in London.
The hall was bedecked with British and Chilean flags, the platform backed by a crossed Chilean flag and a Union Jack.
Thatcher and one of her cabinet ministers addressed the assembled audience.
She described Pinochet as a shining example of democracy and accused those responsible for his arrest as "running a police state".
Pinochet was directly responsible for the arrest, torture, rape and mass murder of unknown thousands of mainly young Chilean citizens guilty of nothing more than protesting the taking over of Chile by a fascist junta.
Thatcher admired and openly supported this murderous thug - she was one of those who ascertained that he never came to trial for his crimes against humanity.
Thatcher and Pinochet died peacefully in their beds - I trust they managed to find adjacent seats by the fire.
The fate of thousands of Pinochet's (and Thatcher's, by association) victims remain a mystery.
Fickle thing, public opinion - as six million German Jews found out in the 19450s.
Must dig out my DVD of Coriolanus!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 08:15 AM

Oh, all right, Fred. Pax. Cruzes. Fanites. If you will be civil this time around, so will I. I don't think either of us emerged with that much credit from that previous encounter; so how about we try and forget it? I fear that, try as I might, I am just no good at sulking, and would always rather be on cordial terms with anyone if I can.

So. Hatchet buried? Please...

We obviously differ as to what constitutes 'a war crime', and how far the Belgrano incident met such a definition. Events were explicitly on a war footing. She was a warship belonging to a hostile state in time of war; sailing away for the purpose of recouping and 'living to fight another day'. How far the concept of exclusion zones, especially self-imposed ones, are valid in such situations must obviously be unclear. My view is that the prevention of an enemy warship's re-engaging in hostilities at some future date is an obvious recourse for any commander in the field [or, in this case, at sea] to embrace. But I can see why mileages will inevitably differ, both in general principle and in this specific instance; and do not claim to be enough of a historian, legalist, or philosopher to try dogmatically to argue the intricacies of the matter. It just seems to my lay mind to have been a valid tactic in a war situation. SFAIK no international body or court has ever determined otherwise.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 09:09 AM

On May 7th, 1982, Argentina complained to the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva which ruled that the vessel, though outside the TEZ, was within the security zone of British ships in the area; was fully armed and engaged in operations and that therefore there was no breach of the Geneva Convention. The action was perfectly legal.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 10:06 AM

Indeed. Thank you, Keith. And having investigated further, I find that professional Argentine senior officers regarded what happened as a legitimate hazard of war to be anticipated:-

'Argentine Rear Admiral Allara, who was in charge of the task force that the Belgrano was part of, said, "After that message of 23 April, the entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, said it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano". Captain Bonzo also told Middlebrook [author of a book about the incident] that he was not angry about the attack on his ship and "The limit [exclusion zone] did not exclude danger or risks; it was all the same in or out".' Wikipedia

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 10:39 AM

Well that's just dandy. Thatcher, from the comfort of the Downing Street war room, orders the destruction of the Belgrano. The Argentinian high command, from the comfort of their bunkers say it's ok because that's war. Meanwhile 323 Argentinian sailors lie dead at the bottom of the ocean and nothing will bring them back to life.

Of all the things I hate about war, the item which is right at the top of my list is the belief that the dead of the other side don't matter. Maybe the Geneva Convention wasn't broken, but its spirit certainly was, as were the hearts of every single relative of those sailors.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 10:52 AM

Well: that's war. Hardly Mrs Thatcher's fault that what is what happens in wars. War is like punishment ~~ an obviously ridiculous way of settling anything, but nobody had for some reason ever managed to come up with a better one.

The dead were professional fighting men. They engage in the job and are aware of its risks. What are your grounds, Fred, for attributing that offensive belief to anyone, 'that the dead of the other side don't matter'?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 11:01 AM

Still no comment on Thatcher's Fascist tendencies - why am I not surprised?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 11:40 AM

'Fascist' a bit of a boo-word in the context, eh, Jim?

Now, why am I not surprised either?

It is, tho, to take the comment more seriously than it deserves, a word of some precise political significance.

You have taken exception in the past to my describing you as a Marxist, because you deny beliefs that would subsume that particular precise political implication. So shouldn't you pay Mrs T a like courtesy and refrain from inaccurately using labels which attribute to her political beliefs which she did not hold?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 11:49 AM

Ollie - like it or not, Thatcher was a bitch. I'd have been just as rude about her if she had been male, but in different terms. You should see that.

She was vastly more regressive than any other post-was British leader.

I half agree with you that " British class bigotry would never allow working people actually to get a decent wage and the involvement of the military and secret police show they would stop at nothing." I am not sure that it was class prejudice though.

You need to check what I have said on this thread about Ireland and take off your blinkers. Ireland's political landscape (that's the Republic of Ireland) is blighted by god-bothering and repression to an extraordinary extent - oh, and maybe just a bit more fraud in high places than other countries, remember the Mahon Tribunal?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 02:42 PM

How would you describe Pinochet?
How would you describe someone who claims him to a doyen of democracy? How would you describe someone who accuses those who put him under house arrest in order that he could be put on trial for his crimes as "running a police state"?
Just an everyday Conservative maybe?
Fascist she was - it was a close call for those of us who dissent - not keen on being found floating face down in the Thames with my genitals removed, ta very much - similar happened to Pinochet's victims.
Perhaps you fancy guitar lessons like the one they gave Victor Jara!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:34 PM

M the G M, the fact that you talked to certain people on trains or decorators or whatever , only indicates that she was popular in your orbit, which was in this case cambridgeshire, and ely, london and the home counties presumably, did you visit mining villages in yorkshire or durham and ask their opinion?, no i bet you did not, you might have got a different response.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:47 PM

GSS you are of course right. In Scotland, and no doubt other places too, she was deeply unpopular. In fact it seemingly really bothered her that she was so unpopular in Scotland. She couldn't understand why! She of course was divisive. Many leaders are. Alex Salmond has been by far the most popular Scottish First Minister and his ratings were, though not so much now, incredibly high at one point. Yet he is a bit like Man Utd in England. They are the most popular club in England yet at the same time they are probably the most hated too.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 12:33 AM

Dick: I have already dealt with your non-point twice above --

Though I should, I suppose, add for fairness that, as well as being IMO the most popular PM in my recollection, she was also simultaneously the most hated by other sections of the populace.

I appreciate that things will have been different in other parts of the country; but even that didn't prevent her repeated re-election,

Now go back to sleep, please; there's a dear fellow. You are becoming insufferably repetitive and boring and I shan't even trouble to respond to you again on this topic.

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 03:25 AM

Huffington Post, April 2013.

The YouGov poll of 1,893 adults declared her the nation's favourite prime minister. Sir Winston - Britain's leader during the Second World War and again from 1951 to 1955 - was in second place with 24% of the vote, and Tony Blair in third with 10%.

Thatcher was named as the best of the 13 prime ministers since 1945

Lady Thatcher was regarded as a "great" or "good" prime minister by 52% of people, while 30% deemed her "poor" or "terrible".

Almost half of those polled (48%) felt she left Britain economically better off, while 60% felt she left it more respected in the world.

More than half (51%) believed she created more opportunities for women, but just 36% declared she left society more free, and almost half (49%) said she left a less equal society.

Baroness Thatcher gladly adopted the moniker of the "Iron Lady" and 72% of those polled felt she stuck to what she believed in, with 66% saying she was a strong leader and 59% saying she was a decisive prime minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 03:45 AM

However popular Thatcher was - she supported a mass-murdering fascist dictator, declared him great democrat, described those who attempted to bring him to trial as "running a police state" and put the Conservative Party at his disposal in order to prevent him being brought to justice.
All the Huffington Post quotes in the world will not alter any of those facts one iota.
I seem to remember a little feller with a mustache being rather "popular" with the German people at one time - six million who wouldn't have liked him if they had survived wouldn't have liked him very much.
Thatcher was a political thug who admired fascist dictators and supported their murderous policies - I have little doubt that, if she hadn't been kicked out on her fascist arse, she would have utilised as many of those policies as the thought she could get away with to put us in our places - the fact that she considered using the army to crush the miners sttrike is indication enough of that.
That she was "popular" with many of the British people really doesn't say a great deal for those people, nor does it say for her continuing admirers who support her fascism by refusing to acknowledge it - or even discuss it.   
She she is, and will remain the most directly hated Prime Minister Britain has ever know.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 04:37 AM

Her popularity arose from the right-wing publicity machine - just like the present government's policy of demonising all claimants. If all the public see are lies then that is all they will know.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: banjoman
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 05:32 AM

Thatcher kept her promise to "Put the country on its feet"
Because of her anti union policies I spent almost 4 years walking the streets looking for a job. No buses, no trains no car. Yes she certainly did put us on our feet.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 07:19 AM

"If all the public see are lies then that is all they will know."
,..,.,.,
Except for the enlightened, like the perspicacious Carroll & the inspired & eloquent Bridge, of course, whose eternal mission it is to see everything with so much clarity & to know it all so much better then the rest of us. And to express their enlightenment with so much inspiring cogency, with their everlasting 'bitches' & 'thugs' & 'fascist arses'.

Why, dear me! What should we all do without the likes of them to put us all in our places!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: selby
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 10:02 AM

In the UK our election of a prime minister depends as to that person being the leader of the party with most seats. In this country not many people go to rallies to hear candidates speak they probably vote how they feel. We do not elect the Sir Humphrey's who run the Departments, they are career politicians and I believe detached from reality. If you disagree with the Prime Minister that is your right in a free and democratic country but calling them names is a bit childish, argue against them criticise them by all means but name calling. I sometimes wonder when I hear Vitriol against Maggie whether it is born out of being frightened by a successful woman. As with all PM,s sometimes they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong and most of the time they are disingenuous. Just think at the next Election with the right vote Nick Clegg could be PM
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 10:31 AM

A survey of current MPs, reported in Guardian last week.

Margaret Thatcher emerged as the MPs' choice as the most successful prime minister since the end of the second world war, narrowly ahead of Labour's Clement Attlee.

Winston Churchill - whose wartime leadership often secures him top spot in polls of the best prime ministers, came only fourth when judged solely on his 1951-55 term.

Sandwiched between the immediate post-war premiers in the poll – which did not include David Cameron – was Tony Blair, who won three consecutive general elections from 1997.

Fifth spot was taken by Harold Macmillan, followed by Harold Wilson, Sir John Major, James Callaghan, Sir Edward Heath, Sir Alec Douglas-Home and Sir Anthony Eden. Bottom of the table was Gordon Brown.

Of the MPs who responded to the questionnaire, 69 were Conservative, 67 Labour, 14 Lib Dem and eight from other parties. Those from the two largest parties were generally more supportive of PMs from their own side, with the exception of Heath who was ranked higher by Labour than Tory MPs.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/02/mps-decisiveness-prime-minister-survey

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM

"Except for the enlightened, like the perspicacious Carroll & the inspired & eloquent Bridge"
And yet once again Thatcher's support and admiration for a mass murder and his "democracy" is given the blessing of the Thatcherites.
No surprise there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 11:56 AM

How many of your way of thinking went on loving Stalin until Khruschev et al generously allowed them to perceive the truth, eh Jim? I could name you at least a dozen, just from my own acquaintance, starting with my own brother-in-law's brother & sister-in-law, Eric & Eve Cohen ~~ lovely people both, but there were things they just didn't want to know. Never let your own history with regard to Dear Old Uncle Joe become public for that matter, have you then, Jim? What would you have said if anyone had asked you about him in about 1950?

No surprise there...

Best, as ever -

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 03:49 PM

M THE G M, If it had not been for the allies including Stalin and the importance of the battle of stalingrad, you being of jewish extraction would be dead, put to death in a concentration camp

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 04:48 PM

Of course, Guest [whoever you are, my little charmer], Uncle Joe gave specific orders that Stalingrad must not fall as it might just mean the end of Michael!

In fact, what saved me was the fact that idiot Adolf decided he hated the Bolshies even more than me & decided to get them first, as he had enough European Jews to get rid of without bothering with the few over here. But, seriously, as to Stalin's own relations to us, here's a couple of extracts from a wiki article which you might do well to have a look at before spouting any more of your ½·witted pigshit.:-

‪Stalin and antisemitism‬
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ---
Though communist leaders including Joseph Stalin publicly denounced antisemitism, instances of antisemitism on Stalin's part have been witnessed by contemporaries and documented by historical sources...
During his meeting with Ribbentrop, Stalin promised him to get rid of the "Jewish domination", especially among intellectuals...

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 06:06 PM

Guest Trotskyite Deviationist.
MtheGM, Josef Stalin[please note correct spelling] saved your life by entering the war, never mind any talk lets deal with actions.
I am not saying Stalin was an angel, he was not, he did many terrible things but us having to put up with you on this forum, is in an indirect way due to Josef Stalin, please have the grace to admit this, and please get the spelling of his name correct you   ignoramus

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 07:25 PM

The idea that someone can't criticise Stalin because they are perhaps of Jewish extraction is a strange way to go. Stalin was like Hitler a mass murderer of the worst kind. Stalin didn't choose to join the war when he did. The Soviet Union was attacked. They had no choice but to fight. At the start of the war Stalin of course was in cahoots with Hitler carving up Poland between them as well as attacking Finland. I think it is perfectly possible to appreciate the sacrifice of the Soviet people in that war whilst still condemning Stalin for his monstrous crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 11:49 PM

I might have realised you were a Trot. The anglicisation of foreign names is pretty common practice; and as this name was written in a different alphabet anyhow there is no reason for it to be transliterated as ending in -f rather than -ph in any event -- so ignoramus right back 2U, matey. Though the -f spelling is actually pretty rare - NB eg "Joseph Stalin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". Is 'Josef' perhaps some sort of Trot affectation?

No need for any more reply; Allan has said it all -- many thanks, Allan. I would add nevertheless that reminding Jews of their supposed responsibilities, and extrapolating from that to tell them dogmatically what ought to be their opinions, constitutes a clear instance of antisemitism as defined by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency), who in 2005 published a working definition of antisemitism.

So Antisemite Trot to boot, then...

& now shut up, please, you disagreeable fool, and do not trouble yourself to respond, as I shan't even bother to read any more posts from your charming self.

☠~M~☠

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 04:43 AM

"How many of your way of thinking went on loving Stalin until Khruschev et al generously allowed them to perceive the truth, eh Jim? "
You once, somewhat McCarthy-like tried to find my politics, you failed miserably.
Now you resort, as your kind always do, to resort to smears in a rather desperate attempt to implicate me with Stalinism.
You really didn't take a long-enough spoon to that dinner party as I advised you to do – you have become every bit as crudely squalid as your protégé
Jim Carroll
http://mneumann.tripod.com/pinochet.html

From the BBC news.
Baroness Thatcher has accused the UK Government of acting like a police state in sanctioning the arrest and extradition case against Chile's General Augusto Pinochet.
Her defence of the former Chilean dictator at a fringe meeting at the Conservative Party conference was every bit as strong as expected, but although Lady Thatcher was greeted with an ovation her reception was more muted than many had expected.
She told Tories in Blackpool it was vital for the party to fight the government on this case.
"We must pay heed to the implications of an international lynch law, which under the guise of defending human rights now threatens to subvert British justice and the rights of sovereign nations."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/10119163/Thatcher-and-Pinochet-turned-into-opera.html

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 05:11 AM

Just the response I expected, Jim. You call yourself a socialist but have always been, and remain, peculiarly cagy as to what sort of socialism you espouse or have ever espoused. So why are you so scared of coming out, then?

Scaredy-cat?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 05:53 AM

WYou call yourself a socialist but have always been"
When did do that Mike?
Whenever my politics has come up I have described myself as a humanist (with a small e), and a pacifist (sort of)
My politics has nothing to do with what I have said - here (unless you want to claim that Thatcher's fascisim is all a Trotskyist plot) and is none of your ******* business, as I have pointed out before.
You are now crudely indulging in McCarthyite smear tactics to avoid acknowledging Thatchers' fascist leanings - you are not even as good at it as he was, but practice.... as the man told the lady,,,,,, Carnegie Hall.
I could claim that yours (and the Iron lady's) views are not unsimilar to those who sent six million human beings to their deaths in Europe's gas chambers during the course of both our lives, but I try to avoid taking any discussion into the sewers.
You obviously have no such qualms.
Whatever my politics are, I'm fairly confident that they would never lead my to the defence of those who suggest that mass murder is in any way a form of democracy, let alone, a shining example of it
Jim Carroll
By the way - I have no problems in discussing my politics with those I respect, not agree with, just respect, and am confident they will not be used as a substitute for honest argument.
You're name isn't even on the waiting list

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 07:09 AM

Sorry - that should read 'humanitarian with a small h' - memo, never try to do two things at one - only women are good at multi-tasking
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 08:17 AM

Sexist!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 10:47 AM

Fascist!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 12:21 PM

I am with Jim on this, Thatcher misled the electorate.
Her defence of Pinochet was inexcusable.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 01:04 PM

MtheGMist

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 01:14 PM

... but in fact, Jim, I have to repeat that your problem is that you don't really know what 'fascist' means; and you are not Humpty Dumpty, who chose for himself what a word meant.

"When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean..."

I fear that the coincidence of your sharing the [assumed] name of his author quite justifies your uncontrolled and promiscuous 'fascist'-scattering.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 03:03 PM

Michael, do you agree or not agree that pinochet had about 300 criminal charges still pending against him in Chile for numerous human rights violations during his 17-year rule, and tax evasion and embezzlement during and after his rule;[13] he was accused of having corruptly amassed at least US$28 million, do you also acknowledge that between 1,200 and 3,200 people were killed, up to 80,000 people were interned and as many as 30,000 were tortured during the time Pinochet was in government. are you aware that he overhrew a democratically elected regime. This was the person your heroine Thatcher defended

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 03:23 PM

She was not 'my heroine', Dick. I merely state facts as to the attitudes she inspired [both pro & anti, a point I had made which you missed & which I had to draw to your attention by quoting my previous posts]. I do not defend her attitude to the iniquitous Pinochet; simply accept it as a fact, & note that it was not that which led to her loss of the support of the electorate ~~ it was her hubristic losing of the plot over the Poll Tax & her refusal to listen to advice or reason on that topic which did that. Tho I must add that she was not the first, nor was she the last, to lie for reasons of policy with unsavoury bedfellows [metaphor, I promise] for political reasons ~~ look at the accommodations made by governments & politicians over the years with the obnoxious Saudi regime, for instance.

It's all very well attacking her memory & trying to belittle her achievements: but the public attitudes to which I have alluded are matters of fact and record, and it is idle to pretend that they are not.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 07:13 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVHuxixPJRA

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 07:55 AM

It is 15 minutes of Dennis Skinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 09:48 AM

"It's all very well attacking her memory & trying to belittle her achievements: but the public attitudes to which I have alluded are matters of fact and record, and it is idle to pretend that they are not."
Thatcher's contribution to the 'society' she believed didn't existed was to tear it down the middle, creating a rich/poor, employed/unemployed, comfortable/struggling Britain – not only did she deliberately increase unemployment, homelessness, want, rights, access to justice, health, education.... but she radically reduced the necessary state support of those her shitty policies directly affected – that's what her "no society" speech was all about.
Please don't hand us that guff about her giving us all "the right to buy" - as a domestic electrician I witnessed up close the losing of homes by those who had allowed themselves to be conned by her "dream" and found themselves unable to pay mortgages.   I'm sure not much of this reached the leafy lanes of Cambridgeshire, but members of my family are still reeling from the effects of her inhuman policies.
One of hers and MacGregor's motives for the miners' strike was to mute the voice of the Trades Unions – however flawed, they are and remain the only say we have in how we live our lives. There is no question that it was an integral part of their policy to end that say (see Goodman's 'The Enemy Within')
Please don't patronise me – I know full well what fascism is – a little better than you, it would appear, though I have no doubt of its effects.
Thatchers's support of fascism in Chile speaks for itself, but if that were not enough, her use of the police as a private army, and her intended (and possibly actual) use of the army against striking miners makes her a fascist in the classic sense – using the forces of law and order and the military to impose the will of the state on people fighting for their livelihood and their hard-won rights (a perfect example of Mussolini's 'bundle of staves' . Thatcher is, and hopefully will remain the most hated Prime Minister in British history – it says little for her continuing supporters and for those less affected by her policies that she received the support she did for tearing Britain in half.
You people studiously avoid her support for the mass murder carried out in Chile – it has taken this long for you even to respond to it i the feeble way you have. Do you think she was having a bad blue-rinse hair day when she handed the Conservative Party to Pinochet on a plate, the way she did? Somehow I doubt it – rather she had found a soul-mate, a fellow-fascist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 10:54 AM

Should read - "and restrict the access of many of us to rights, access to justice, health, education - of course - though, how could we not know that (outside of Cambridgeshire and England's privileged soft-underbelly, of course),
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Van
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 06:20 PM

There seems to be a strange misunderstanding of the UK electoral system. People elect an MP not a PM. The majority party appoint a leader they become PM. Thatcher took over a form of presidential rule, copied by her bastard son Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 01:10 AM

"is, and hopefully will remain the most hated Prime Minister in British history – it says little for her continuing supporters and for those less affected by her policies that she received the support she did"
...
& continues to do so, Jim, quite widely. Is not Guest KeithA's post of 9 Jan, 1031 AM not a bit enlightening? I have at least twice conceded the force of your point about the hatred among sections of the population. And admit also that it was the ill-judged support of Pinochet, which I in no way defend, which began the undermining of this which culminated in her ultimate defeat over the Poll Tax. But it is no use your claiming that she did not thru most of her time in office command a considerable majority of pro's over antis.

~M~

And I still think this loose use of the emotive term 'fascist', which ought to have a precise political connotation but has degenerated into such an all-purpose term of denunciation as to have lost both accuracy and effectiveness, is one of those which should be avoided as undermining of the user's argument because blunted by overuse, and so liable to reduce what should be a valid argument to a cliché: tho must concede that an effective alternative does not come instantly to mind. 'Totalitarian' perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:26 AM

Your reference to her still being hated by large sections of the population and her support for Pinochet are no more than lip-service unless you address the reasons for them
That she was and still is popular with sections of the population is totally immaterial.
Thatcher was a fascist - you nor any of her supporters have even attempted to disprove that fact other than, i your patronising way, to claim that I don't understand fascism.
Her lasting legacy was to respectabalise greed; the turned homes into 'commodities'invested in, the ripped out the heart of British industry and she removed the safety net that British Society (that she didn't believe existed) had created to ascertain that the less well-off didn't suffer too much by government and buisiness failures and indifference.
When she forced the closures of the mines she put nothing in their place - this led to the destruction and impoverishment of entire communities.
Tebbitt summed it up when he told us "we should all get on our bikes and leave home to seek work" - not something anybody with a streak      of humanity in them tells a miner with a family who has just lost his job because his pit has closed.
We are still living with the 'dog-eat-dog' society that Thatcher created.
She not only ruined many of our lives, but she debased the huanity of many of her subjects.
That she remains popular with those she debased is immaterial - Hitler was once a popular feller with a lot of people I'm told, and remains so with some.
You're doing Keith's trick of hiding behind meaningless cut-'n-pastes to put forward superficial arguments and ignoring the salient facts of Thatcher's reign of terror.
Did she support Pinochet?
Was Pinochet a fascist (by your definition (whatever that is) or mine?
Did she declare his behaviour "democratic"?
What does that make her as a politician?
She was a fascist and she admitted to that fact by her statements and, in my opinion, by her actions
An answer to these would be far more preferable than your mealy-mouthed lip-service
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:32 AM

By the way - your attempts to use semantics to defend Thatcher's behaviour is equally as evasive as your use of Keith's cut-'n-pastes.
Thatcher was prepared and actually did use the police, the army and the judiciary to repress the veiws of people defending their livelihood, their homes and their way of life - the classic actions of a fascist politician
If it waddles and quacks it's almost certainly a duck
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:19 AM

Thatcher was prepared and actually did use the police, the army and the judiciary to repress the views of people defending their livelihood, their homes and their way of life - the classic actions of a fascist politician
How so?
I can understand that she used those powers available to her to restrict the actions of certain people/sections/unions, but how did she use the police/army/judiciary to repress their views?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:23 AM

When she forced the closures of the mines she put nothing in their place - this led to the destruction and impoverishment of entire communities"
Correct, it also meant that The UK, had to rely on foreign fuel imports.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:45 AM

Relying on foreign coal was no risk.
There was plenty and it was cheap.
We mostly bought Australian.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 08:25 AM

"but how did she use the police/army/judiciary to repress their views?"
In practical terms - one of your "certain people/sections/unions," it would seem

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/sheffield/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8217000/8217946.stm

Elsewhere it has been established that part of Thatcher/MacGregor's agenda was to loosen the grip of the Trades Union movement on British industry
Dawn raids on miners homes, the sealing off of entire mining villages with police road blocks, police waving their pay packets at miners struggling to feed their families..... all is part of the history of the miners strike Nigel.
As I said, classic fascism - the state versus the people.
Jim Carroll