BS: Is there any merit to creationism?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:07 AM

GregF,

Have you run out of duct-tape for the guinea pigs again?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:02 AM

Oh and Bruce: You seem to be channeling Humpty Dumpty.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:02 AM

See my posts previously, learn to read, and get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 10:55 AM

See Stu, above. And tweak your meds.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 10:16 AM

Then you had best further explain your comments of 01 Apr 14 - 09:29 AM .

You seem to be defining FOR ME what a phrase I am using HAS TO MEAN.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 10:07 AM

YOU have insisted on what YOU define as "God's Word" to be the only one allowed.

Where, exactly, did I do that? Tweak your meds again, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:59 AM

"If there is no creative vector at all, then the entire gamut of existence in our known space-time framework was a complex chain of effects without an initial cause, apparently."

It had a cause, just one we don't understand yet. Ascribing that to some supernatural being is creationism by another name, pure and simple . . . unless evidence is found to the contrary of course.


"God's Word ( facts as shown by the real universe)"

You're invoking a God where there is zero evidence of one, however if this is a simple turn of phrase then it's a rather unfortunate one, because some people believe in no god or one god or some gods or many gods or spirits of place or ancestors etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:56 AM

Kind of like having a zombie chihuahua chasing you everywhere...

Reminds of...

The Word of God

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:56 AM

GregF,

I have stated MY OPINION of what I think "God's Word" is.

YOU have insisted on what YOU define as "God's Word" to be the only one allowed.


I think YOU need to get a grip, a life, and some sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:52 AM

"MY" definition above the rest of the world's? I'm the only one?

Get a grip, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM

You can define "God's Word" as a pernicious fairytale, GregF., but that don't make it so.


So why do you place your definition above the rest of the world's?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:29 AM

You can state that "Gods Word" is smoked whitefish, Bruce, but that don't make it so.

I define "God's Word" as a pernicious faiytale.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:25 AM

GregF,

Try to read for comprehension.

I have stated that

"God's Word ( facts as shown by the real universe) "

What part of this simple statement do you not comprehend???



GregF.:""God's Word" has nothing to do with the facts of the universe, or with science."

What do YOU define "God's Word" to be, and why do you insist that the rest of us agree with your definition????

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:22 AM

Gee, Jeri - do I need your permission to comment on topic? How do I apply for your approval?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:19 AM

Kind of like having a zombie chihuahua chasing you everywhere...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:11 AM

"God's Word" has nothing to do with the facts of the universe, or with science.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:08 AM

Where God's Word is the FACTS of the universe, rather than the text that people pro port to give it to us.

Try to comprehend something instead of attacking based on who is saying it.

I am stating that SCIENCE is the search for Truth, and is a far better road to the "Creative Force" than the text of any religion.

What part of that do you take exception to ???????

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:00 AM

Science is the art of trying to understand God's Word

You really don't see how ridiculous that is, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 08:52 AM

The question is whether to take God's Word ( facts as shown by the real universe) or the written words of human beings as the truth- Where the written words are the Bible.

….Even the EARLIEST written copies were

1. written down long after the original enlightenment by God of the original person
2. filtered throughout the understanding and language of a specific people and culture.

Science is the art of trying to understand God's Word in the facts of the universe, rather than accepting a translation by humans of a human's interpretation of what someone generations before had understood God to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 08:42 AM

Which one would that be, Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 08:17 AM

Thank you, Amos.

I believe that my posts earlier match at least one of your "creative" scenarios.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 07:59 AM

One of the more fascinating aspects of Christian Folklore concerns the Noah's Ark Drogue Stones as well as the various claims over The Ark itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Musket
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 04:40 AM

Yes but when you start from a basis of make believe, you can continue to make it up as you go on. In a weird way, that makes pete (or the people he cuts and pastes, I wouldn't wish to give him credit for actually sitting and considering beetles) more consistent than you think.

The boutique Christians have it even easier. They can swap between make believe and reality at will and claim credibility in either sector.

The pointy hats and titles stemming from "revere" help with the credibility bit, as well as being allowed to scrutinise democratic government for all in our country's case.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 03:27 AM

Good question, Musket!

I note pete's tactic of not posting for a while after being challenged - and then abruptly changing the subject. He knows that the absurdities exposed by 'speculating' about beetles (and other invertebrates) on the Ark makes a nonsense of creationist 'arguments' and that neither he, nor his creationist 'web gurus' have any sensible answers (except silly ones that they desperately make up as they go along)!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 01:28 AM

Notice how pete chooses his battles? Fight the good fight eh?

A pity he dismisses most of us. I have pointed out he is the only person on these threads to my knowledge who could be described as truly religious. He may be daft as a brush with his insistence that belief means to actually believe, (perish the thought!) but the only alternative by our boutique Christians has a whiff of hypocrisy about it.

So let's get this right. The creationists stand for the miracles, metaphysical nonsense and old bloke with beard philosophy. The boutique lot get credit for buying water wells in Africa and arranging the beetle drives.

Who lays claim to the misogyny, homophobia and desire to enlarge membership at any cost?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 09:05 PM

Or maybe it just happened, we understand it to millionths of a nanosecond after it happened, one day we'll get even closer, and, in the meantime, we should try to not disappear up our own quasi-philosophical arses.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:51 PM

IF we're actually going to address the question, we should recognize that there are two really important and very separate issues at play.

One is the fundamental question whether there is a creative vector to be found behind the rich panoply of deterministic factors in the physical universe. If there is no creative vector at all, then the entire gamut of existence in our known space-time framework was a complex chain of effects without an initial cause, apparently.

But if we admit that some sort of creative principle is part of this nish-mash, the second wide-open question is the nature of it.

STandard pop-religion Christianity would hold that it is a unary, all-encompassing One who is characterized as omniscient, omnipotent, somehow very paternalistic, and preoccupied with our species out here on the rim of a second-rate galaxy. Not only with our species, but with what we do with out peepees.

Other theories would offer the idea that there are whole families of creative super-beings, who divide up the universe into zones of responsibility. They occasionally mess with each others' heads and get into squabbles. In some versions they come from one Gigantic Forefather, in others not so much.

ANother variation on the "creative" theme is that we as conscious beings are all tapped in to a gigantic Sea of Creative Will, and that we as individuals are sort of pseudopods, like tendrils of wave-foam linked to the abysmal oceans.

Another model, the one I favor, is that each of us a creative source, contributing to the Grand Charade we call reality, and entertaining ourselves thereby.

In any case these (and other) models could all be called "Creationism". Some of them are more interesting and applicable than others, in my experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:14 PM

I for one am tired of half of all threads being started by Jack.
But then again there surely were people exasperated by my cause to accept people with dyslexia, before I lost my sight and could not read or post.

Joe, we all have a tendency to heal, get better and/or evolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 07:19 PM

Pete: Mtheth, believing you are asking a serious question

And MY serious question, again, is: are you going to post the lyrics of your song "Mungo Man" so that I can critique it rationally and without ambiguity?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 07:14 PM

SRS: I've never encountered a postmodern resistance to science such as you suggest. I see and use pm as a way to explain why we don't all really read the same book even if we all pick up the same text and read it.

There seem to be several strands of post-modernism, as far as I can see. At least one strand of it seems to see "truth" as entirely socially constructed, and I've definitely met a few people who subscribe to this idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 06:35 PM

Jack Blandiver: "The core of Jesus' teachings on such matters are fairly unambiguous I'd say, GfS - standing in diametric opposition to pretty all Christian denominations thus far manifest..."

Ah yess...Christian denominations!....hmmm..well, as in all religions, and denominations thereof,..."In the beginning God created man in His own image....and ever since, man has been trying to return the favor!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 06:34 PM

It's not over until the dead horse sings. And we say so, and we hope so...

As for pictures of God...

In medieval art he's depicted as looking a lot like Jesus, as in this amazing image of The Creation from the Ashmole Bestiary, MS 1511 early 1200s, which looks rather like Jesus having a day out at the zoo.

God at the Zoo

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 06:04 PM

Is there any merit to beating a dead horse?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:33 PM

Mtheth, believing you are asking a serious question, rather than the argumentation of some here, I will venture a few, far from exhaustive thoughts.       As you are aware that I trust the bible for revelation, you will expect that to be the bedrock of any "concept" I have on the subject.    First, Jesus said that god is spirit, so although we may have an image in our minds, and religious art has portrayed him oft as you describe ,I don't know that he is visible as such.      However these descriptions are taken from visions that bible characters experienced, and are described as seeing him.    This looks like a bit of a contradiction but bearing in mind that Jesus said that " he that has seen me has seen the father" seeing a vision of him might also in some sense be seeing him who is essentially nvisible.   But as Jesus ascended bodily back to the father believers will see the divine in the person of the saviour in eternity. As I say....a few thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 04:05 PM

Indeed. The core of Jesus' teachings on such matters are fairly unambiguous I'd say, GfS - standing in diametric opposition to pretty all Christian denominations thus far manifest...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 03:32 PM

Jack Blandiver: "Too right. I've known Charismatic Catholics praying for a lottery win, praising God for their wealth, then speaking in tongues before the laying on of hands."

Jack, believe it or not, your spiritual instincts may be more in tact than you give credit......
James4:3.."You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend {it} on your pleasures."
- New American Standard Version (1995)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 02:40 PM

A few logical fallacies that are used here at Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 02:38 PM

It's always interesting asking Post-Modernists who state that "western science" is just a belief system like any other and no more absolutely valid than any other world-view,

I've never encountered a postmodern resistance to science such as you suggest. I see and use pm as a way to explain why we don't all really read the same book even if we all pick up the same text and read it. Postmodern interpretation understands that when you read the word "tree" and I read the word "tree" we each have our own set of trees that we deal with an visualize something known to us. It was a response to formalist/formalism as a teacher-led "this is what the book means, period" and disregards what the reader brings to the text.

Perhaps it is because of my background in English and Philosophy that the the postmodern readings I used simply privilege the reader as bringing something to the text. It doesn't however dismiss the text, or in your usage, it doesn't dismiss science. I think it is laying too much on the term "postmodern" to suggest that people who don't accept science because they bring their own fallacies to the topic are using a postmodern approach. I considered myself a postmodernist all through my graduate studies, and I know it is imperative that people take science seriously and treat it as credible.

Postmodern thinking is a point of view that tends to move a certain privileged class from the center. Derrida mentioned "writing back to the center" as a way to indicate that others have equally valid understandings in the context of literature and intellectual discourse. That doesn't mean the lunatic fringe may dismiss science and portray said dismissal as purely semiotics in action. Willful stupidity by offering faulty reasoning and logical fallacies is not a function of postmodernism, even if flat-earth thinkers may attempt to characterize their knuckle-dragging ideas in such a way.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 02:37 PM

"many churches these days have acquired social consciences"

I'd think it more likely the social consciousness has been there in the churches longer than elsewhere. "Not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth, but theirs." John Chrysostom writing around 400 AD (Quoted recently by Pope Francis).

Looking through this thread it strikes me the only people being outrightly dogmatic are those who are eager to share their expertise on religions they so deplore.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 12:59 PM

Gnocchi! Gnocchi!

Who's there-ee?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 12:54 PM

"It's always interesting asking Post-Modernists who state that "western science" is just a belief system like any other"

I'm intrigued - what aspect of creationism/religious zealotry is post-modern?


"Our lack if knowledge increases the more we know."

Now there's a potentially fascinating topic of discussion for the philosophically minded amongst us.


"All we need is Gnosis!"

Agreed! I love Italian food.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 10:03 AM

I believe there are books on the subject.

But you haven't read any of them, right, Sunshine?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:09 AM

Teehee, Keith. You have been reading my ongoing thread, ha'n'tcher? A proleptic dream, anyhow. The sign didn't arrive till yesterday, so old God seems to have mixed his tenses up "the other night".

LoL to GoD!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 07:53 AM

Mike, this probably means nothing to you, but I had this strange dream the other night when God told me He had sent you a sign.

Something about a glasses case?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 07:47 AM

Mike, this is an inadequate place to explain God, even if I could.

I believe there are books on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 07:20 AM

Rob Naylor : It's always interesting asking Post-Modernists who state that "western science" is just a belief system like any other and no more absolutely valid than any other world-view, to follow that precept to its logical conclusion by doing something (anything) that goes against the tenets of established theory.

To them I usually point to the abundance of technology & medical science that such a 'belief system' has made possible. Maybe my faith in technology is blind to the extend I don't personally understand it - be it my laptop, my TV or my synthesisers & FX - but I don't believe they are unknowable in any sort of supernatural sense, otherwise they wouldn't exist. My life is currently dependent on 5 different types of medication - I owe my very being here to science. The other day I read of a skull transplant involving a 3-D printed cranium. Amazing!

Belief system? We're entering an age where belief is redundant. All we need is Gnosis!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 06:33 AM

My old RC priest pal said to me once: 'God is a metaphor for the unsayable - only as science progresses, the unsayable recedes. The only unsayable things left are the atrocities of humanity - so maybe God is a metaphor for that? I simply don't know.'

To which I replied : 'So why bother?'

And he said : 'Because the people in congregation need me to. So maybe God is a metaphor for them too? Because they don't know about science the way I do. Neither do they want to.'

'So God is a metaphor for human ignorance?'

'Not quite. God is a metaphor born from human ignorance. You see it's those people who need him most, and the need is pretty real. If they get that from this weekly theatre I put on during mass, then I've done my job. One thing's for sure though - as slow as I watch them come in, I never see a building empty so fast once it's over. Because that's all they want.'

That was the gist of it anyway. I guess he was progressive. He once asked me if I believed in Jesus, and half through my rambling response dealing with theology, Gnosticism and scriptural inconsistency, he stopped me and said : 'Every homeless person I see is Jesus - which I why I give them space in my home, and then they rip me off. And that's Jesus too in a way, reminding me to set my treasures in heaven.'

*

Charismatic Catholics are a group unto themselves. I wouldn't call them "progressive"

Too right. I've known Charismatic Catholics praying for a lottery win, praising God for their wealth, then speaking in tongues before the laying on of hands. All a world away from old Father O'Ryan.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 06:26 AM

Funnily enough, I was at a Methodist service yesterday. (Family thing, christening etc.).

Despite the preacher speaking of world affairs, inequality and helping the poor, not to mention that he and his partner are to be wed at long last, the prayers and hymns, not forgetting the baptism speech, did indeed speak of adherence to God, spreading the gospel, asking forgiveness and earning his mercy.

Perhaps it's more of what you choose to remember about the service? Like asking my niece and her husband to raise their child to fear God.

Is there a book for wannabe boutique Christians telling them which bits to believe and which bits are just for show? Then once you have that sorted, you can address children and vulnerable adults. At what point do you advise them of the metaphor? Before or after their minds have been tampered with?

Fascinating.

(Enjoyed the service though. Plenty of thee and thou, hymns I remember from school assemblies. Just try not to ask what the words mean eh? A it like a retired steelworker singing about being a West Country farmer in a folk club.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 06:13 AM

So what is this concept of yours, Keith (& Joe & pete et al)? Man with long white beard in long white nightshirt, sitting on gold throne on enormous sapphire pavement surrounded by orchestra of winged blond epicene males in their own ickle white nightsirts playing on harps & timbrels & psalteries & such & singing #s from Hymns Ancient & Mid-Victorian? [honest ~~ that was what dear old pious Miss Holding used to tell us at Northampton Town & County School in 1942 -- & she truly believed it, what's more: you could tell; & she genuinely looked forward to going & standing on the edge & looking on].

Or more of a sort of a you·know thingummy-wotzit? In which case wot SORT of a...?

Or wot!?

~M~

just asking

Subject: RE: BS: Is there any merit to creationism?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:45 AM

Yes.
(most of the time)