Reading Lyrics vs Memorization

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 12:44 PM

Singing with the words in front of you makes you look like an amateur. If you’re happy with that, fine, but expect to be treated like one.

Personally, if I don’t know the words, I don’t sing it.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 10:25 AM

The difference may be: whether you went to church or not.

If you went to church, like nearly everyone in Britain in the 300 years preceding the folk revival, you learnt how to read a hymn you'd never seen before, understand it straight off and sing it right first time. You wouldn't even think of not using the book. For obvious reasons this was an era when people could make effective use of broadsides.

The folk revivalists were the first generation since the Reformation capable of fucking that up.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 08:46 AM

You are right that it is really about standards. If you have a good singer who has put in the work to learn and understand the song, it won't matter if they need to refer to a crib sheet because that won't interfere with their performance and delivery. The reality is that the majority of those who rely on having the words in front of them have not put in that work, and can't deliver the song properly. Learning a song from memory requires you to study it and think about it in a way that simply reading from a book does not.

My other point is that while many singers, myself included, may "know" hundreds of songs, for most purposes we only need to have a small number ready to performance standard. A floorsinger at a folk club might only get to perform two or three songs in an evening. Even at a weekend festival they probably won't need more than a dozen. A professional performer probably needs no more than 15 or 20 at any one time to make up their current setlist (although they can probably manage more than that). Is it really too much to ask of someone who expects others to listen to their singing that they put in the effort to learn just a handful of songs? Allowing of course for those with genuine memory problems.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 06:43 AM

Steve said
> One thing that can be done in attending a regular event is go along and see what is accepted for a few weeks before making decisions whether to take part or whether to decide what goes on is not for you.

The trouble is that there may be some really good performers whom one throroughly enjoys hearing, some who are not too bad, and some who (in one's personal opinion) are appalling. It then depends whether the positives outweigh the negatives.

Steve also said
> One would hope that if in a room full of people with folders one person fully competent gets a far better response, surely that should tell the others something.

One would hope that indeed: the trouble is that in some singarounds nearly everyone seems to get about the same amount of applause, regardless of how good or bad they are. I don't object to even the weakest performer getting some acknowledgement of their efforts, but I do wish that the better ones (in whatever sense of "better") would get due recognition.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 05:12 PM

Reading back through the whole of this thread, and noting that there are other threads on exactly the same topic, I'm aware that a whole range of viewpoints are being expressed from one extreme to the other, total tolerance and anything goes, right through to don't sing it at all if you can't learn it. Like most things the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle, and it also depends on locally accepted standards. One thing that can be done in attending a regular event is go along and see what is accepted for a few weeks before making decisions whether to take part or whether to decide what goes on is not for you. Or as has been said before, set up your own song event where you can set your own rules and standards.

Personally I try to be as tolerant as I can in these situations. There are all sorts of methods being used at singarounds I attend, and with new people or youngsters I'm happy for them to use whatever gives then confidence, but hope they will be encouraged by the majority who have learnt their songs and are getting more applause. I must admit however that I do get frustrated when the chap comes along to the same session every week and pulls out his folder and lays it on the table in front of him. However he is the only one at that session who does so.

Even the mobile phone scrolling has different levels. I certainly didn't object to 3 preteen girls who made their debut at a singaround and quite competently sang one of their pop songs. Who knows what this might lead to? However I was at one singaround in Cecil Sharp House a couple of years ago with a very high standard of singing, mostly unaccompanied, some professionals, when to round off the afternoon a lady was asked to sing, produced her mobile phone, began searching and scrolling, started to sing a song everybody there knew by heart, and kept losing her place and singing the same verses over and over. My family were there who are not died in the wool folkies, and they walked out!

The main quibble I have with those using folders, books, phones etc. is, as some here have said, the problem of falling standards. If it becomes the norm then that's me out of there. One would hope that if in a room full of people with folders one person fully competent gets a far better response, surely that should tell the others something.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 03:48 PM

I confess. I use cheat sheets. Usually, I know songs fairly well, but I hate struggling to make sure I got in all the verses and didn't miss a line. I hate it more when I have to stop in the middle of a song because I just can't remember a verse I've sung a hundred times. I keep my cheat sheets in a folder, and pick out the ones ahead of time that I intend to in a singaround.

I started out singing in a choir, and I've always used hymnals. Over the last 20 years, I find myself looking over the shoulder of the person in front of me, so I no longer have to hold a hymnal. The more often I sing a song, the less often I need to refer to my lyrics.
I've sung for kids for the last 60 years, and I probably have 300 children's songs memorized. I used to do a lot of singing at campfires, and song sheets don't work at campfires.

But when I started singing for adults, I started using cheat sheets. I admire people who don't need lyrics sheets, but they sure help me. Now that I'm singing on Zoom, I hold my lyrics in a clipboard that's in a book stand below my monitor, and that works quite well for me.
I've noticed that people who use a phone or iPad or computer as a source for lyrics when singing, and they often lose their place in the lyrics. So it's probably better to have lyrics on paper.

People who can memorize lyrics easily, see no reason why everybody shouldn't memorize. I'm a good singer and I always have my songs prepared, but I've often felt excluded when I'm with people who insist on memorizing lyrics.

I think memorizing is a good ideal to uphold, but cheat sheets give a lot more people the opportunity to sing a wider variety of music. I'll opt for cheat sheets.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 02:35 PM

This last year has brought a new dimension to the whole argument as most sessions have been via digital media such as Zoom or Skype: so you can perhaps get away more with using lyric (or musical score) sheets and hope no-one notices that you are not doing a song (or tune) entirely from memory!
I haven't done a Zoom singaround, yet. But it seems the perfect opportunity to, apparently, keep your eyes on those you're sharing the session with. Just use a split screen to view the Zoom attendees on one half screen and the lyrics in a word page on the other half.
Alternately, if it's a new or uncommon song, throw the whole page up on screen while singing, and 'share' that screen. Anyone wanting the words can then do a quick screen-grab.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Jos
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 02:23 PM

It always amuses me when I see a marching band with a little crib sheet sticking up near the end of every trumpet.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 02:05 PM

This last year has brought a new dimension to the whole argument as most sessions have been via digital media such as Zoom or Skype: so you can perhaps get away more with using lyric (or musical score) sheets and hope no-one notices that you are not doing a song (or tune) entirely from memory!
Depending where you put your crib sheet, people may or may not be able to detect that you are doing this: eye movements can be a give-away if you have a music or recipe stand out to one side, or lyrics down on your lap. Then there is "screen sharing" or putting the lyrics up in "Chat", so that everyone can join in: we do use screen sharing a lot in a couple of the instrumental sessions I do. (And there are people in the "tunes" world who have just as strong views about using written scores or not!!)
I'm not saying it's good or bad; it's just what happens.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: leeneia
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 12:23 PM

I was reading about some serious local problem recently, and a community leader said "Talking about extremes kills useful debate." An excellent point!

The description above, "...seeing the top of someone's head as they fumbled through reading the words to sing a song that they didn't know well enough to be performing in public" is an extreme. How about the person who knows the song but gets flustered in public? How about the senior citizen who worries about looking like a fool? How about the person whose brain simply can't memorize?

How about being glad to hear a new song, even though it wasn't done smoothly?

I just did The Wabash Cannonball on the singaround. This song has a "chorus" whose fourth line is different every time, and sometimes there is no meaningful connection between that new line and the verse it's connected to. You bet I had a copy of it nearby.

Besides, when a person sings, you should be LISTENING, not staring at them as if they were on TV.

(I think that's nasty about Rise Up Singing.)

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 11:20 AM

I thought I'd waded into this topic in the past, probably on a different thread with a similar name. And pardon me if this was already mentioned, I skimmed, didn't read this thread today.

There is a ritual at the Seattle Song Circle when someone passed away to do a gathering and pot luck and one of the events was to ritually rip apart and shred or burn a copy of Rise Up Singing. They did so with particular gusto when my father died because he really disliked seeing the top of someone's head as they fumbled through reading the words to sing a song that they didn't know well enough to be performing in public.

He practiced a lot - learning the chords on the guitar and the words, usually the chords came first, and while he was doing that and singing from a page at home we kids learned the words since that was the only part we were participating in. He would come to our rooms at night and sing a couple of requests and sing a couple of songs he was learning - and if he stumbled on the words we could supply them because we now knew the words to the song.

By the time he was out at an event or hoot or song circle performing a song he'd been working on it for weeks, at the very least, so it could be sung properly.

Maggie Dwyer, daughter of John Dwyer

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 11:07 AM

Back up the thread and years ago someone said that you should practise at home and perform in public. But there is a point in the practising when you can get things right at home, but the first time you take it out you are much more fluent with the notes.
I don't sing many songs, but the first time I played a tune in a folk club I took the dots along because, although I had memorised it I could only play it slowly if I was trying to remember the next note.

The same goes for calling dances. Some people would say you should never use cards, but there are so many complicated dances that if you are calling at a club both the practise at home to recorded music and the card in your hand (even if you don't look at it, or just glance through before you start) are needed. It gives a wider repertoire and adaptability to the dancers present on that particular night (numbers and expertise)
For a wedding ceilidh memory is sufficient. (With perhaps a list in the mike case)

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 12:52 PM

I sing memorized songs around the house and in the car, but when I'm on the Mudcat singaround, I sing from a songsheet. I feel more confident that way.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:36 AM

Seems a very balanced viewpoint!

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:26 AM

The previous post on this thread was from me, several years ago, saying Hear Hear to a post that started "I doubt whether anything written on this thread will cause anyone to change their opinion or practice; all that's likely to happen is that you'll find, whatever your viewpoint, that some will agree and others disagree."

That probably remains true, but I am prompted to revive this thread by some things that I have noticed occasionally in recent online singarounds. (No names, no pack drill, as they say.)

Some singers are not only visibly reading their words but seem to be so totally dependent on reading that they grind to a halt when they have trouble reading the next bit. Or they stumble in fitting the words to the tune. Both of these suggest that they are at the opposite extreme from learning the songs, having not got them into their heads at all.

On the other hand I have a good friend (again no names) who sang and played professionally for a short while but was stopped by a serious health issue. He still sings, but his memory is deteriorating. In one of his songs he consistently replaces the second half of one verse by the second half of the next verse, and then sings that next verse with the same second half again. That makes a mess of the story. (It is not a "big ballad" but it does tell a story.) He also sometimes gets partway through a song and then can't remember the next verse, but of course that happens to many of us even if our memory is mostly OK. I have begged him to use a crib sheet, but he refuses, even though he admits that he hates messing up a song.

So there we have what seem to me opposite extremes: some singers being totally dependent on reading the words, and one who really should at least have them available but refuses.

As for myself; there are some songs that I half know but have not managed to learn completely. I think they deserve to be sung, and I am sure some would urge me to sing them with the words in front of me, but I would feel wrong doing so, although I can't say exactly why. (One of them is The Bury New Loom, a glorious song of sexual allegory, but which is chock full of technical terms for parts of a loom that I am not yet managing to remember.)

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 05:14 PM

Hear hear to
From: GUEST,ST - PM
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 05:05 AM

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 10:46 AM

Well the obvious answer to all this, the best compromise...

..is to mime to recordings.... 😜

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 10:30 AM

Oh, it's just that your post started "Raggytash, No .........."

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: GUEST,dickmiles
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 10:27 AM

raggytash the   quote was not aimed at you

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 09:01 AM

i've no objection to this thread. but really i think it speaks volumes about the doldrums the folkscene has got into.

what does it matter how the people choose to perform the song?

the vitality of the music in a great artform should enthrall. we need to stop picking fault with each other. i never stood up in a folk club till i felt i had something to offer, at an age when most modern young folksingers have done at least six albums.

the people who got up and fumbled about, or got up before they were ready were objects of ridicule - barely tolerated.

and i'm sorry - in the end this fault devolves down to the pro singers for thinking they are guardians of some bloody awful museum of traditional music. or even worse people who embark on a career as a songwriter without first learning some of the great songs and learning what greatness a song can aspire to.

they set a bad example. being a folksinger isn't a licence to bore people. too many people have picked up that message by osmosis, and its sad but that's what you're watching quite often. but its not their fault - they simply haven't been in the room where a great folksinger is working.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 07:01 AM

"I would advise performers with words to practise in front of a mirror, and practise each song often s0 that they do know it well and use the sheet as a last resort.
to insult and accuse , people of ac different opinion of arrogance and snobbery is in my opinion a sign of losing a discussion.
quote from Socrates "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

No insult Dick, no accusation or slander in my post, just a simple straightforward question.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 06:52 AM

RAGGYTASH, no , I would never ban anyone neither would i ever say anything to anyone in public unless they asked me privately on a one to one basis. Ihave been absent playing and singing music and only have a computer in my office hence my tardy reply. It is in my opinion never silly to discuss thing again people can change or modify opinions.
I do not like seeing people using crib sheets and shuffling through stuff,
to add to my pevious opinion i believe professional actors are well able if they are also singers to perform well from words because they have practised it and know how to not make it a barrier between themselves and the audience.
As a member of the audience I still prefer to see the non use of crib sheets, I did see one girl perform well with a crib sheet in Robin hoods bay folk club, but my experience has been that good perfomance has been about 1 per cent .
I would advise performers with words to practise in front of a mirror, and practise each song often s0 that they do know it well and use the sheet as a last resort.
to insult and accuse , people of ac different opinion of arrogance and snobbery is in my opinion a sign of losing a discussion.
quote from Socrates "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 05:47 AM

..... then there was Bob.

Both Bob and his wife are blind. They both have a great love of folk music, particularly at the more traditional end. He became a regular singer at our club in Lewes but he always remained at his regular seat at a table when he sang instead of coming out to the front. He seemed to have a fairly large repertoire of songs and never seemed to forget his words. One evening after he had sung, I was silly enough to compliment him on the way he had learned so many songs despite his disability. he broke into a wide grin and held up high a braille sheet for everyone to see. Apparently, his fingers had been working away under the table at braille sheet every week and I had failed to notice.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 05:05 AM

I doubt whether anything written on this thread will cause anyone to change their opinion or practice; all that's likely to happen is that you'll find, whatever your viewpoint, that some will agree and others disagree.   Nevertheless, I'll chip in with my own view.

I'm in the "learn a song before you sing it in front of others" camp. To me songs are ephemeral works of art: they only exist as that song, "your" song, for the time you're singing them. Songs, not just your audience, deserve respect as would any work of art you try to create no matter how limited your talent. I wouldn't feel I was showing respect for a song if I didn't give it everything that I had - and not bothering to learn the words would not be giving it everything I have.

As for waiting until the idleness of retirement to find the time to learn the words as one here suggested; I learned most of my repertoire when I was younger and working. Young brains learn more easily. If anyone else out there is thinking of waiting until retirement, I hate to break it to them but, even if you find you have the time then, you'll find the ability to grow new synapses has sadly deteriorated. The most likely result of trying to leave this skill until later is that, when you come to try to learn, you end up saying, "Reading has been good enough for the last 60 years and it's too difficult now that I can't even remember where I put my keys 10 minutes ago."

When I started singing in public in the 1960s no-one I ever saw, paid, unpaid, professional or amateur, read from bits of paper. Over the last couple of decades the practice seems to have crept in and grown until now it's seen as normal practice and it's this "normal practice" that's the problem for me. I think there's a critical mass factor in operation. There's one singaround I used to go to where one person read the words. This was accepted; they'd had a stroke I think and their memory was no longer up to it but none of the other regulars read, they all knew their songs. When people came in as visitors they soon picked up what was acceptable and what wasn't. As far as I know that continues there. The problem seems to be when enough regulars haven't learned the songs and read them instead. Newcomers think this is the way to behave and soon nearly everyone doesn't bother to learn songs but says things like "I haven't sung this one for years but found it just before I came out" or "Here's one that I haven't got round to learning yet but I thought I'd try it out on you." Where's the respect for the song in that? (Incidentally, in reference to the comment "Nobody has yet mentioned the obvious downside of only performing stuff you've memorized. For anyone who isn't being paid to do it, the result is usually a pretty small repertoire which will diminish in volume, accuracy and quality with the passing years." The other singers at the "no sheets of paper singaround" put my repertoire of about 300 songs to shame so my experience is that those who do learn their songs actually have larger working repertoires.)

I went once to the singaround/session that I think revived this thread (via a thread that now seems to have disappeared). Like Mr Miles says, I won't be going again – I'll seek out places where I feel I might fit in better.   I'm glad that others go there and presumably enjoy themselves and I'm pleased that people are getting out and singing - I'd rather they do that, even if they read the words, than they sit at home passively absorbing electrically produced sounds - but I'd like to think that there remain enough people around to keep a culture alive that I respect as well; one that believes songs should be learned and respected for the works of art that they could be. As another poster says "If you don't like things done that way, go to a club that suits you. But don't bar those who, for one reason or another, have difficulty recalling lyrics, that is just petty, very petty snobbery." For there to be those "clubs that suit me" there have to be some places that do say "no" to reading from sheets and where like minded people can gather. I don't think any of the "learn the words" group here are trying to ban "paper" clubs, they're just trying to make sure they don't become the only ones.

Quite a few people here keep mentioning performing for an audience but I'll finish by repeating, it's not just about performance for an audience for me, it's also about that attitude to the songs themselves.   I very rarely do paid gigs, I've never been a "professional" performer and I'm probably not all that good but I do respect the songs and I will give them everything I can - and that means learning them inside and out.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: RTim
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 09:33 PM

This conservation is silly. The subject has been disgusted over and over again in other threads – with no conclusions. Time to put the whole thing into the discard bin! However:
The conversation also assumes that when a singer uses a printed/computer resource that they use it "Every time" they sing! This is probable NOT the case.

I have been using a "Aide Memoire" of verse first lines for years – and that is what it is – a simple mechanism to make sure I get the song "Right" for my audience – who I want to please every time I sing. I have no desire to stop in the middle of a song because I don't know what comes next – that is NOT something one should do to your listeners…But I don't use it on every song – just some that are either not sung often or maybe newer and are sung as part of a themed presentation.
I have seen famous singers I admire occasionally use the written word to make sure they get the song right, and if it is good enough for them – it's good enough for me – reference The Copper Family – who at one time did it at every performance!!!

Singing folk song should NEVER be discouraged; and who are you to say a singer should think the way you do……….

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 08:47 PM

It's more enjoyable for the listeners: a better performance if you only have to focus on delivery.

Some of the most excruciatingly tedious acts I have ever heard have been from people who have memorized their material (all six songs of it) down the last comma and sing it EXACTLY THE SAME WAY every time. I'd far rather they were trying something different even if it didn't always work.

Memorization is doing something useful if it frees you up to do fresh things with the music - which might be inspiring or might fall flat. In the classical world, Martha Argerich built a career out of that sort of unpredictability, and of course there are folk examples. But there are hell of a lot of NON-examples, and growing. Far too often you get the attitude that because the performer has memorized their stuff, problem solved, they are now an Honest To God Tradition Bearer, and you all better be quiet and listen respectfully, no matter that the singer last had a new insight about that ballad 25 years ago.

Self-righteous pomposity does a lot more to repel newcomers to the folk scene than technical lapses. And you can see just in this thread that terrific memory technique often goes along with bullying arrogance - and particularly with older performers; younger ones are much less likely to think memory skills are a licence for displays of entitled attitude.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 05:49 PM

And I'll just add a comment for the benefit of "left-handed guitar".

It's nothing to do with being snobbish - it's to do with enjoyment. Not just the enjoyment of the performer, but also the enjoyment of the audience. I also don't really care whether someone uses a cheat sheet if what they're doing is giving a really competent performance and communicating with the audience.

The problem is that, very often, the performers who rely totally on word sheets aren't communicating with the audience or really putting a song across. Not always - but far more than in the past.

I've taught many, many people guitar - from total beginners upwards - and I always agree a simple agenda in each lesson for the pupil to follow. I then wait for the pupil to contact me and say they've got on with that agenda and that they're ready for the next lesson - in their own time. Those that want to get on this way will learn and progress. Their choice.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: GUEST,Leslie
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 05:40 PM

Six very good reasons for memorising, and not reading words:
It's more fun.
It's good for your mental well-being, a minor achievement, something to be proud of.
It's good for your mental health. (Think brain-training and dementia-delay.)
It's more enjoyable for the listeners: a better performance if you only have to focus on delivery.
It's good manners. In a session you expect other folk to sush and listen while you sing, so the least you can do in return is demonstrate an effort to justify, and show you appreciate, their attention.
And it's not difficult – Those hen party survivors bawling on the late train know all the words of the chart hits because if you like a song and hear it often enough, you pick the words up naturally.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 05:39 PM

Raggytash, you're asking a very black & white question in a very simplistic way. I said, in a previous post, "no" to that question - and linked it to a wider issue because any answer cannot be simplistic. (We get enough people on Mudcat repetitively demanding that their questions MUST be answered, and it's always a fruitless exercise).

However, I'll demonstrate the level of complexity by going back 50+ years, when I started playing in folk clubs. At that time the standard of performance in folk clubs was very high. Remember this was the time of some stunning artists, both traditional and trendy. Anyone who turned up with a music stand or a cue sheet at any of the clubs I attended in Leeds and London (my haunts in those days) would have been treated with scorn. You had to be good to get a floor spot because there was fairly intense competition from very good players and singers. And the clubs were vibrant and exciting places to be on that account.

I dropped out of the folk scene for a long time after that, playing other sorts of music mainly for money, and returned to it via sessions about 12 years or so ago. My first forays into folk clubs were a real eye-opener - music stands, folders of songs, mobile phones, iPads (later on) - and a very mixed set of performance standards. Now, I help to run sessions/singarounds for all comers and for all styles and standards - so I'm not a rigid snob - but I do get bored when I go somewhere else for an evening of fun and music, only to find very little decent music and not much fun. I think to myself, "Why am I wasting an evening here?", and don't go to those places again. At my own sessions I encourage people to put the paper down and go for it if they can.

I also help to run a monthly acoustic session in Brighton, which has both guests and regulars who do floor spots. There are no music stands and no sheets of paper other than a set list here and there. So it can be done. If I did run a folk club and had to select floor spot performers, then I would choose those who were competent over those who weren't. In effect, I would be exercising a "ban" on poor performers - so the answer to your question is now "yes". Both "no" and "yes".

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 05:21 PM

I find it hard to sing in public without referring to my 'cheat sheet' of lyrics, even songs I know by heart at home. What 's the big deal??? If it's good enough for Paul Shaffer (most underrated bandleader in the world), Barbara Streisand and the New York Philharmonic, it's good enough for us folkies to read the'charts' on Rise Up Singing; or anywhere.

This ridiculous snobbishness does not befit the spirit of folk music.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:02 PM

OK Dick & Jim, You have both had sufficient time to answer my question.

Are people who cannot remember the words to be barred from singing in public.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 02:01 PM

$250! That's a hell of a price unless it was a very professional. As someone else said I think you should claim your money back if this message came AFTER you'd paid. Luckily I've now got the hang of singing from memory, but in most open mic style clubs a single song sheet is normally ok, but I think a book or 'smart' device are not really acceptable. Put the effort in the try memorize a song or two it's easier in the long run

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 01:15 PM

From an earlier thread:

Folkies sing at twilight,
When the lights are low.
And the youngsters' I-Pads
Cast a gentle glow.
Oldsters 'twit' the youngsters' goldfish memories.
Saying "Back in our day, we'd none of these,
We'd none of these"

Back in those dear dead days of good recall.
We never needed Aides memoire at all.
We all could stand and sing a lengthy song
So confident the words were never wrong.
Sing one more song, and sip another sup.
(There were no songbooks there to trip . us . up!)

Folkies sing at twilight,
When the lights are low.
And the youngsters' I-Pads
Cast a gentle glow.
Oldsters 'twit' the youngsters' goldfish memories.
Saying "Back in our day, we'd none of these,
We'd none of these"

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 12:32 PM

The point is that a ukulele club is a social situation where the rules you're advocating would be destructively inappropriate. As they would be in a church.

There is a downside to memorizing repertoire. It takes time and effort. Which means you're going to want to amortize that over many performances. And if you're always going to be playing to the same few people, as would be the case with a regular at a village folk club, that means they're going to get bored with you. And they're going get even more fed up once they realize your repertoire is shrinking with age.

Schools used to teach relevant skills for performance off a script - my primary school English classes regularly included recitation. I wasn't all that good at it at the time, but I did learn there was a skill to reading words off a page, conveying their meaning and bringing them to life. Playing an instrument or singing from a score or songbook involve similar mental steps.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 11:29 AM

"If you don't like things done that way, go to a club that suits you" That is what i said to the organiser of the Shefield club Neil Cardwell, that i would do, and was subjected to abuse on   Fcebook.
Yes i have i saw one in a pub in whitby, i also saw a group in mansfield, so you are jumpin to conclusions again Jack, jumpion jacl campin.
no i an not insisting upon anything, you are person t talking about churches i havent mentioned them

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:38 AM

I see no evidence in Dick's followup that he's ever seen a ukulele group in action or has any idea how they operate.

Is he also insisting that everybody who goes to church should practice all their hymns from YouTube videos before they step through the door?

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:31 AM

oh c'mon..

where would the world be without fundamentalist dogmatic old men dictating how everyone else should be and behave...

They're a traditional fixture in the dusty corner of all aspects of life..

..and I'll probably be one of 'em meself before too long.... 😜

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:17 AM

If I may ask; What harm is done to the audience if the singer has a lyric sheet ? If you find it distracting, close your bleedin eyes, just sit and listen. I find a lot of this dogmatic stuff off putting. If it is an amateur folk club, let the participants do what works for them. If you don't like things done that way, go to a club that suits you. But don't bar those who, for one reason or another, have difficulty recalling lyrics, that is just petty, very petty snobbery.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 09:51 AM

Will, i may be a performer but i am also a member of the audience. asa member of the audience I find it insulting
jack
"Ukulele groups (which operate in a similar way) are NOT part of the folk scene, never have been, and the folk scene does not set their ground rules. They mostly do popular music, anything from Irving Berlin to Miley Cyrus. When you've got a group of 20 people all singing and playing together on something somebody suggested last week, how on earth can you expect tham all to have memorized every word and chord?"
by practising together and at hime without the notes, or even practising along to the leaders you tube video, that is how it can be done, jack move with the times.practice.
50 years ago we had a teenage pop group, we learned the words the drummer did it by ear the bass and the guitar learned their chords we practised and performed in private with only occasionally at chord sheets and words.we performed in public without bits of paper
now in 2017 it is easier the leader of the uke group puts up a youtube video, you can have chord sheets at home AND you play along to the video, then you practise a LOT, THEN WHEN IN PUBLIC YOU PERFORM WITHOUT WORDS OR CHORD SHEETS, ALTERNATIVELY YOU CAN PRACTISE BY EAR IN PRIVATE WITH OCCASIONAL CHECKS TO THE MUSIC.
JimCarroll is right once again here
"As far as I'm concerned, the golden rule is 'private is for practice" - public is for the finished article'"

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: GUEST,alex s no cookie
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 09:50 AM

What Will said. Spot on.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 09:18 AM

Here you go Dick. This is one of the most recent songs we've added to our repertoire. (Guitarists or concertina players, forget it, it's microtonal).

http://sarkilarnotalar.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/duriyemin-gugumleri-kalayli.html

And it's no more foreign to you than it is to a native speaker of Greek, Arabic or Persian, all of which we have in the group. Our last set had 8 songs in 5 languages. Next gig is in 6 weeks. (We're adding a new one tonight, it's in Arabic but I already know the tune well). Off you go.

Ukulele groups (which operate in a similar way) are NOT part of the folk scene, never have been, and the folk scene does not set their ground rules. They mostly do popular music, anything from Irving Berlin to Miley Cyrus. When you've got a group of 20 people all singing and playing together on something somebody suggested last week, how on earth can you expect tham all to have memorized every word and chord? It would sound unlistenably crap if they tried. The nice thing about big ukulele groups is that they do usually get the chords right, even though they're a lot more varied and complex than the 3-chord tricks needed for folk, and the massed effect is great.

Nobody has yet mentioned the obvious downside of only performing stuff you've memorized. For anyone who isn't being paid to do it, the result is usually a pretty small repertoire which will diminish in volume, accuracy and quality with the passing years. And if you're only performing to a local scene (as most amateurs do), the audience will very soon get bored with it; hence the evolution of singarounds into a species of elderly daycare. A touring professional has it much easier, since they don't repeat the same act anything like as often to the same listeners.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 08:10 AM

Are people who cannot remember songs to be debarred from singing in public.

The answer to that is, of course, "no" - BUT, it highlights an aspect of the everlasting words/no words debate which never seems to get a lot of prominence: the audience's point of view.

Many comments on these threads are very much from the singer's point of view - me, me, me, etc. But we don't sing in isolation, except in the bath perhaps, and if we do sing in public, we do it with the expectation that someone will be listening (else why do it?).

Surely, as a singer - no matter what the social environment is - one gives some thought as to how one's singing will be received. Is it pleasurable? Is it interesting? Is it worthy of the listening group? If not, why do it?

The problem is that many kinds of activities carried on within social groupings do require some level of practice to be worthwhile and often to fit in with the group aspirations. You wouldn't join a cricket club and expect to be picked for the team if you couldn't play and/or didn't practice. As a teeneger I was a member of a tennis club. I didn't take it seriously and very soon discovered that other players didn't want me as an opponent or as a partner. I left the club and took up guitar!

The folk scene sometimes appears to be one where anyone can do anything without even trying - and where people have an expectation that they can do just what they want - even see it as a right. I try and avoid places where this view is prevalent, and go to places where I can hear a reasonable standard of tunes and songs. And I don't mind if people bugger it all up at these places, because I know they've tried - and because they're as conscious of their audience as they are of themselves.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:57 AM

editing cock up... last line should have read:

But perhaps an added bonus ideal if they then decide to take it seriously and love the songs enough
to naturally find themselves learning them by heart through repetition...

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:23 AM

Jim - that was rather the point I was making..

The oral tradition - passing stories and songs down generations from memory within 'tribal' communities -
existed and thrived at a time of lower levels of literacy and barely any other forms of entertainment media distractions...

It's simply no longer realistic to hold today's youth to such archaic cultural expectations...

It should be considered lucky if any youth at all do attend a folk club of their own volition...

But perhaps ideal if they then decide to take it seriously and love the songs enough to naturally find themselves learning them by heart through repetition...

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:02 AM

I'll try that again :-)

I'll ask you the same Jim.

Are people who cannot remember songs to be debarred from singing in public.

Is that what you want?

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 06:56 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 06:33 AM

At the time singers were capable and happy to let forth with twenty verse ballads - word perfect from memory

"Twenty verses - word perfect"
How could anyone tell, if no-one had song-sheets to check?
They might be the same 20 verses he sang last week, or they may have changed, but people were unlikely to recognise the fact.
Similarly they might not be the same twenty verses that others sang for the same song.

Without some standard of reference you will never know whether he was 'word perfect'.

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 06:38 AM

I'll ask you the same Jim.

Are public who cannot remember songs to be debarred from singing in public.

Is that what you want?

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 06:33 AM

Jim - bear in mind there were fewer songs in total [good & bad] in existence when the folk tradition sprang forth, and later became more popularized."
At the time singers were capable and happy to let forth with twenty verse ballads - word perfect from memory
I'm doing a talk today in which I intended to include an example of an octogenarian singing a song on the subject I am speaking on - the only problem is it is 16 minutes long
At 83, old Martin wouldn't have been able to see a text when he sang it but I can never remember him stumbling on one word of it
If these people could learn their songs I'm damn sure thos half and more their age can
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 06:26 AM

"the music is simple and can easily be memorised if practised regularly"

It MAY be easy for you Dick, others struggle. Are we to say that because someone cannot learn the words by heart they should be debarred from singing in public.

Is that what you want?

Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 05:58 AM

Twaddle?Jack stop tying to muddy the waters,
I am referring to ukelele groups, the music is simple and can easily be memorised if practised regularly, the same applies to tradtional itm tunes they are best learned aurally mistakes can be turned into variations, that ispart of the art of performing irish trad tunes you never play the tune exactly the same.
ukelele groups would be also better off picking up the tunes by ear, develop the musical ear and performers can pick things up on the fly[bring back Michael Gill], a good way tpo start is twelve bar blues for developing the ear, Jack you know you are talking bunkum