Friction Pegs That Don't Hold

Subject: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 14 - 03:37 AM

I was given a lap dulcimer the other day to see if I could fix it. None of the tuning pegs will hold a setting.

The strings are old, probably 10 years or more. The pegs are large spade shaped wooden ones. In all likelihood, the dulcimer was made from a kit.

Any ideas?

Thanks for any comments or advice.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Bugsy
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:29 AM

Sit them down and tell them how much you hate them.
That should cause some friction.

Cheers

Bugsy ;-)

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Sugwash
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:39 AM

Get some peg paste from a violin shop or online.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hidersine-30H-Hindersine-Hiderpaste-Violins/dp/B000WB2K28/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400834142&sr=8-1&keywords=violin+peg+drops

Hopeully that will stop the pegs slipping, otherwise you may have to get some new pegs.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:40 AM

I take it you're describing pegs and holes as in a violin.

There may be a number of reasons for peg slippage - the pegs and holes have become worn smooth with age - the pegs have dried and don't quite fit the holes. etc.

You could try:

1. Taking the pegs out and cleaning up both pegs and holes of any grease or dirt
2. Changing the pegs for new ones
3. Checking peg and hole outer and inner profiles - perhaps a little surgery
4. Changing the pegs altogether for light geared ones

I had bone and metal friction pegs on my tenor banjo when I first bought it - changed 'em for geared ones straight away!

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Sugwash
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:40 AM

Hopeully - hopefully.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 May 14 - 06:06 AM

I once had a guitar with friction pegs - my first one. It was a bugger to tune and often would not hold. I was advised to use children's play plasticine on the pegs - and it worked perfectly.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: treewind
Date: 23 May 14 - 07:34 AM

The traditional remedy when my cello pegs used to slip was blackboard chalk.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 23 May 14 - 09:32 AM

rubbing the pegs on a block of bow rosin works well - almost too well - fine adjustments become tricky

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 14 - 09:46 AM

I use Lava soap- it provides both grit to hold, and soap to lubricate. ( on violas, violins and chin cellos)
One can also "rough up" the surface of the peg ( or the inside of the hole) if it is glossy. very fine sandpaper or steel wool. Just enough to remove the gloss- do not try to remove any of the wood!

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 May 14 - 11:00 AM

Ten year old strings? Those strings will be 'dead.' First change them, then see if the pegs are doing their job. I suggest you tune it DAA (not DAD) to reduce the pull from the melody string.

There are good-sounding suggestions here from kind mudcatters, but put new strings on first to see how they hold.

Where has the dulcimer been stored? Perhaps it simply needs a few weeks in a normal environment. As I'm sure you know, instruments like the same environment we do: temperature about 70 and humidity 40 - 60%. If the dulcimer was stored under a bed and near a heat register, it will have dried out, shrunk, and will not hold the pegs tightly.

I have a dulcie made from a kit, and it plays fine after more than ten years. I change strings about every nine months, but the highest string more often.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 14 - 11:51 AM

Lots of meat here! Thank you.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 May 14 - 01:55 PM

Back in the mid-50s I had a chance to buy a used genuine flamenco guitar from a fellow who had taken guitar lessons in Spain and had this guitar as a spare.

Spruce soundboard, cypress back and sides, lightly constructed, and it definitely spoke Spanish. But it had friction pegs.

Great guitar, but it was hell-on-wheels to tune. One to one ratio. Fortunately, the pegs didn't slip, but worried that they might, I checked around and someone—a violinist in the Seattle Symphony whom I happened to be acquainted with—told me that there was a product on the market called "Peg Dope" for just that purpose. Use as directed.

CLICKY.

Sounds like it might be the solution, Ebbie. Good luck!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:22 PM

Be sure to put a bit of pressure towards the headstock as you tighten the peg.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 May 14 - 08:58 PM

Violin rosin

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

To soften the rosin before trans to your fingers (and then trans to the peg) alcohol (rubbing etc) applied to the rosin block and then rubbed a few minutes later on the fingers and then on the peg works grand. Be careful....a little goes a long way. It is always easy to add more. Humidity is a big factor.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 14 - 08:58 PM

From Peg Dope: "Currently unavailable.
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock."

lol But thank you, Don!

I will find something of the kind.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 May 14 - 09:00 PM

Ebbie, please keep in mind that we will want to know how it turned out and if you are playing it, and how it sounds.

Don't just leave us hanging.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 14 - 04:31 PM

It's not too hard to put on stuff to make them stick, but the real problem is still being able to move them so as to adjust tuning.

I hate friction pegs. You can get some with a screw in the top you can tighten up to make them stick better, and that's more flexible than relying on peg paste or whatever. But they are still buggers to tune.

They do have those planetary geared pegs some banjo players use, but they cost a bomb, and you'd probably have to rebore the peg holes.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 25 May 14 - 05:54 AM

I have been told that if you put rosin on pegs it will stop them moving - permanently. Are you sure the pegs are fitted properly - the taper of the hole and the peg have to match. I've used peg paste and plasticine (and even Blu-tak in an emergency).   Getting them properly fitted is probably a starting point.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Jeri
Date: 25 May 14 - 09:54 AM

As someone who's tried rosin on pegs (by running a rosined bow over them), I have to agree that it makes them so sticky it's hard to move them again. I'd be more apt to try the slight roughing-up with steel wool thing.
What fixed my fiddle pegs was re-fitting by a luthier, but I understand you probably don't want to put a chunk of money into fixing something that may not be worth it.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: GUEST,Pappy Fiddle
Date: 26 May 14 - 12:13 AM

Don't know if this applies but it might, and I guess it's related.

I just put Perfection pegs into my viola and they are mighty, mighty fine. I don't like the little tuners behind the bridge, they muffle the voice of the fiddle a little. I just used regular pegs for years, got so I could tune it more or less, but once tuned I'd be reluctant to tweek it let alone tune it off to some other cross tuning. Stick and slip is a bad thing.

P. pegs are Really Tricky to install. I actually broke two getting them in, but I was able to glue them back together.

The first trick is to measure the holes using a caliper. You can get a working one for 5 dollars in the bargain bin at the hardward store. Plastic, made in China, but works. You can measure a few known things like metal rods and sheets and get an idea of the accuracy. The pegs come in several sizes and there are instructions on how to figure what size.

Second trick is, go real slow and deliberate. Think about each step, don't be in any hurry, try to practice each step on something of less value first. There are some videos on how to install P. pegs on Youtube, some of which are nonsense but it gets you seeing some problems in advance.

Third trick, the pegs come in a left and right chirality - two pegs for the tenor side, two for the bass side. They have a one-way friction feature. Get 'em swapped and they will not hold. Figure out which is which, very deliberately, and stick gummed labels on 'em, so can't get 'em swapped. You can tighten the friction by pushing the peg in a little, and loosen it the opposite.

4th, find a luthier and borrow his reamer(s). I was able to get two, a 1-degree reamer and a 3-degree. Just lightly turn the reamer in the hole, it works real aggressive, about two turns and you've widened the hole past ever having it work again. I pushed it in real soft and gave it a quarter turn, and repeating that one or two times more, was all the new pegs needed.

5th trick, I had to ream out the two sides of the pegbox a little differently. It really needs a special reamer, but that doesn't exist. I tried the 1-degree reamer, and the peg jammed in the hole at the small end, and broke when I turned it. The 3-degree would have been worse, it needs a 1/2-degree reamer which are only made out of Unobtainium. And in spite of my best care it happened again on the next peg. I glued together the broken pegs and reamed out the small end from the other side, got it working, and by the luck of the Irish this worked out OK.

The manufacturer sez just go find a luthier and have them install them, but problem is back here in the woods with no income, and no prospects of any soon, it's be my own luthier or have none.

So how did I manage to afford the pegs, you will ask. Well, I have two sons, and one of them ordered the pegs for me as a present.

The pegs are absolutely beautiful. I did not trim off the ends; they work fine as-is and I don't care too much about cosmetics. They work so well it almost makes me cry. I can tweek the tuning all I want and they just make it easy. Thank God for Chuck Herin, the inventor.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 26 May 14 - 03:16 PM

I have come across several forms of planetary tuner pegs but they are invariably costly. Does anyone know of any that are cheaper?

Here are some links explaining things about the Knilling, Schaller and Peghead varieties of planetary tuner which may be of interest to those reading this thread:

Knilling Perfection Pegs



Installation Video 1



Installation Video 2


PEGHEADS

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 30 May 14 - 07:28 AM

up

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 14 - 11:25 PM

In the fwiw dept. Ebbie, I had a flamenco guitar for awhile with friction pegs. In my ignorance, I thought peg dope was meant to help the pegs hold, and kept using more and more of it to try to get the pegs to stop slipping. Too late, I learned that peg dope is used to reduce friction.

Subject: RE: Friction Pegs That Don't Hold
From: Tootler
Date: 31 May 14 - 06:04 PM

There are also Pegheds for ukulele which might be more suitable for an Appalachian Dulcimer. In fact the web page suggests just that

http://www.pegheds.net