BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 01:23 PM

Three black officers on a police force of about fifty. (The number of Hispanics or Asians, if any, has not been give.)

None of which has any legal bearing on who did what or why. That will come out.

We should bear in mind that a case like this comes up only once every couple of years.

That's in a country of 300,000,000 people and hundreds of thousands of local uniformed police and detectives.

None of which has any legal bearing on who did what or why.

The protests are about more than Michael Brown. But leaders need to make it clear to everyone that what happened to him is not the real focus of the anger, and make it obvious just what is, so that those issues can be peacefully addressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 01:16 PM

This is in addition to Qs information:

Ferguson information 

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:53 PM

Ferguson, St. Louis County, pop. about 21,000, is about 70% Black (2010; but in 1990, 74% white).
Whites moved or are moving out, but a white-guided governing structure remains, creating a problem city.
The police force has Black officers, but I don't know the percentage in the force, and the top seems to be White.

In 2013, 86% of vehicle stops were of Black people, and 93% of arrests.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:34 PM

In 2011, we had a not dissimilar incident in Tottenham Hale, and the riots lasted five days. In 2005 a similar stop-and-shoot had occurred in Mill Hill, and the officer responsible was only charged with murder a couple of weeks ago.
The problem is a difference between entitlement in the eyes of the young and in the eyes of the Police. If the Police won't hold themselves ot account for their actions, then the locals consider there is no society and prove their point at the cost of the community.
I don't think the UK has anything to teach you, therefore. Do we live in a democracy or do we live in a Police State? Many symptoms argue the latter, and it does tend to come from the US, for example in the heavy-handed application of anti-terrorism laws in areas they were not intended to apply to, and the escalation of force on and us-and-them basis where "them" somehow comes to include the rest of society (who pays for it, into the bargain). Shouldn't be that way, of course, but we definitely see the same disconnect on the ground here in North London.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:25 PM

If there were no race issues in this town with the police, it is difficult to see that such a response would have occured fom the citizens.

It is not reasonabke tgat a persons race, large size and involvement in a petty crime would be a goid reason to use deadly force - on its own. If that were tge case, there woukd be a huge number ic deaths recorded.

It is also not outside if reason that some, if not many, police forces tend to "defend their own and ignore infractions" when unfortunate incidents occur, including poor judgement in discharging a fire arm that results in a death.

Regardless if you are a citizen or law enforcer, the use of deadly force should only be used as a last resort, when you reasonably believe that a life is in danger, and no other option existed. Firing such a number of shots in a populated area (many citizens seem to be in the location) seems odd to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 10:51 AM

The protestors want the shooting to be investigated. I agree. There's no reason to shoot an unarmed kid six fucking times.

As for the riots, I think that without the police presence, the assault vehicles, riot gear, and tear gas, there would be a peaceful demonstration. It seems to me the "police" are fomenting the violence. I guess you buy all that military weaponry, you gotta find some excuse to use it...

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 10:13 AM

The heavy-handed tactics were probably used out of fear that the protests would turn into destructive rioting, as happened in Los Angeles after the acquittal of the police who beat Rodney King.

The LA case was fueled by broadcasting selected parts of a video which showed the police beating King but omitted the parts where he kept getting up again and attacking them. The jury saw those parts, but the mob didn't.

In Ferguson there's no video, but there are witnesses claiming that the policeman shot Brown repeatedly for no reason. If that's true then of course he must be prosecuted. But it sounds far-fetched. Why would he do that in broad daylight in front of witnesses? He would have known the consequences, and he would have been aware that someone might very well have been video recording the incident. The policeman's account of self-defense is more plausible, especially given Brown's size and the store video showing him grabbing the clerk by the throat and throwing him against a display case.

Racism is central to the Ferguson case, but it's not necessarily the racism of one town or one policeman. It's the racism of a society that kept Africans first as slaves and later as an underclass based on race. Incidents such as this are the inevitable result.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 10:09 AM

The legal issue will be whether the officer can justify shooting to "defend his life." And if so, how many shots might or might not have been justified. The forensic evidence (so far) lends some support to his version of events, and at least disproves the claim that the victim was "shot in the back."

Cops are not supposed to shoot except to defend life, and very few ever fire their gun outside of the firing range. Justifiable or not, a split-second decision was made.

It's unpleasant to realize that such a decision can have devastating consequences. But welcome to the real world.

No surprise that the case is more complicated than people who watch too much TV and movies want it to be.

On the positive side, Captain Ron Johnson of the Missouri State Police is starting to look like the Martin Luther King, Jr., of police work.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 09:54 AM

The autopsy released yesterday showed six wounds: four to the right arm and two in the head. One of the head wounds was to the forehead, as if the head were bent, the other head wound was reported to have entered at the rear and come out the right eye. The forehead shot was considered the fatal one; the arms could or could not have been raised in surrender or to protect the chest and head.

Further information, from the clothing, for example, has been asked for -- there were no powder residues on the autopsied (naked) body.

As for Geoduck -- I was in the NG when Kent State happened and I lived within minutes of it for 12 years. You're talking out your ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:09 AM

One comment I saw on CNN was, "Racism is like oxogen, it is all around us". Regardless of the details of the death, that will eventualky become public, racism seems to be an underlying factor in the citizens response.

As to the government response, I suspect because of the muliple jurisdictions, it does not seem to be well designed to quell the local and broader public concern that meaningful justice will be done by a unbiased agency. If this were done early, police could focus on isolating troublmakers versus mixing them in with concerned citizens. There are genuine questions about who is in control and whether they have the skills or interest in dealing with the bigger picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Stu
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 07:05 AM

It's hard to comment from here in the UK without sounding like a right tosser, but if the cap fits (and we were asked).

It's disturbing, and not the America I've ever experienced when I've been there. Aside from the shooting itself, to see the way the police have treated the protesters and press is truly shocking. Teargas, sonic weapons, corralled press and cops nicking their kit after teargassing them, armoured and masked cops (public servants?). It's not good, and of course our own paramilitary coppers where in the UK are following their lead.

One thing about all this stand out though: guns. The white cop executed Brown because he had a gun and could, despite the fact he didn't need to. If the only way he could have stopped Brown was with a gun, then he's a shit copper, end of. He killed him because it was easy too. Now the police are aiming automatic weapons and shotguns AT THEIR OWN PEOPLE. Seriously? Pointing armalites or whatever at unarmed townsfolk? Shotguns? Can folk not see the utter insanity of that? If people are looting etc do they deserve to die for it? It's this tacit acceptance of ultra violence and the threat of violence that is worrying: all that shit about the second amendment means nothing when a copper is aiming his automatic rifle at you and threatening to blow your brains out.

The real heroes are the folk protesting peacefully, clearing up the next morning and refusing to be goaded or intimated because some small-cocked dickwad is pointing a gun at them. That takes guts.

I love the US but when it comes to guns, you guys are bonkers.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 01:17 AM

Hey, this predates Obama by a loooooooooooooooooooong shot.

I grew up white-but-not-imperialistic (a la straight but not narrow) in post-colonial francophone west Africa, mostly in the Ivory Coast in the 60's and 70's, and saw a lot, lot of racism.

Nothing prepared me for how racist America was when I got here for college. And it got a lot worse when I moved to the South from New England in the 80's.

And no matter how racist we Americans are as a mass not as individuals, boy are we even more sexist.

That is why we can't have a female president. If we want to get anything DONE we have to have a white man. A woman would not only be ignored, she'd be condescended to beyond belief. But that's another thread.

I am actually very very interested in the opinions of the Europeans among us, specifically on the Ferguson current riotage.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:22 AM

This thread should be closed. Brits should not be allowed to comment on Obama's race war.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 11:55 PM

Wow, the blicky worked, my html has been cursed lately.

Anyway, I was going to synopsize; apparently cop was chasing, and had already shot (at?) once, an unarmed teenager, who ran for a bit and then (according to the kid's friend) turned and put his hands up to surrender, or (according to the cop) turned and lunged at the officer.

Cop shoots unarmed kid 6 times, original autopsy not released, independent autopsy says only one shot killed him, all others, mostly in the arms, survivable.

Cop and almost all other cops white. Kid and most of civilian population considered black by Americans, which could mean anything that isn't white or too obviously Asian.

Civilian population riots and has huge peaceful protests which are equally responded to by cops with riot gear, tear gas, rubber bullets and a curfew imposed on all citizens. To be fair, a large number of cops get accidentally teargassed too.

Rioting continues as do large peaceful protests. Now, no curfew but the National Guard. Are we having fun yet?

Subject: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 11:47 PM

It's on BBC now too - what can be done, do you think, those of you from across the pond?

News blicky