acoustic versus electric !!!???

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 08:13 PM

"Don, you had the misfortune to be at college during a bad period for Baroque historical scholarship. People only started sorting Bach's attributions and chronology out properly after you left. This is not "nitpicking" and it isn't conspiracy theory either, it's mainstream musicology."

And exactly when was this "Dark Ages" of Baroque historical scholarship that existed when I was at college (one college, one conservatory, some years apart)?

AT THE TIME it was noted in class that there were those who claimed that J. S. Bach was all written by Dietrich Buxtehude—or Pachelbel—or that the Toccata and Fugue in D minor was written by Felix Mendelssohn, trying to trade on Bach's reputation. Many such conspiracy theories were noted as being bruited about by people with, apparently, nothing better to do.

Jack, I'm certainly not going to accept what you are asserting on the basis of an article in Wikipedia claiming that Bach did not write Bach—NOR do I accept your accusation that my music professors were wrong and did not know what they were talking about—without some pretty authoritative and convincing information from several highly authoritative and reliable sources.
If you can cite some of these authoritative and reliable sources of this wondrous new scholarship so I may update my antediluvian musical education, I will read them with great interest.

To claim that a toccata is not a toccata or a fugue is not a fugue….   These are patent asininities that can be refuted simply by examining the music itself without having to know who wrote it. That's like looking at paintings and claiming that a portrait is not a portrait or a still-life is not a still-life.

I alluded to Marlowe and Shakespeare above. I have found a couple of different web sites—including an entry in Wikipedia—citing "evidence" that Shakespeare did not write Shakespeare. Marlowe seems to be the favorite among the conspiracy theorists, although there are a number of other candidates. In a Shakespeare class I had in the English Lit. Department, these conspiracy theories were duly note. The professor, after discussing some of the allegations, remarked that at least it kept the conspiracy theorists off the streets....

[Emotional principle of conspiracy theorist: "I know the hidden truth! YOU are a hopeless DUPE!" A crutch for a lame ego!]

BUT
Be it duly noted that NONE OF THE ABOVE, be it accurate history or pure blather, invalidates the point I'm making in my post at 09 Sep 14 - 08:27 PM. Scroll back up, read my post, and try to understand what I said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 08:55 PM

If you can cite some of these authoritative and reliable sources of this wondrous new scholarship so I may update my antediluvian musical education, I will read them with great interest.

There are plenty of references in the Wikipedia piece. That's what Wikipedia is for.

I was familiar with these arguments before Wikipedia existed, though. And the more I hear it the less like Bach it sounds to me. (I kinda fancy having a go at the solo alto recorder arrangement by Aldo Bova - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odko2FccBo0 - in many ways it's an improvement on the organ version because it leaves unnecessary notes out, the harmony is just as clear when left implicit).

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 09:58 PM

Jack, I will check the references--and a couple of my music professors who are still around, plus a couple of new people I know. They're not the kind of people who get left behind.

BUT--that still does not invalidate my point. In fact, the recorder link reinforces it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 11:39 PM

Jack, I took another look at the Wikipedia article that you linked to claiming that Bach did not write "Toccata and Fugue in D minor," and noticed that at the top of the article, large red letters that read"

"We need your help documenting history."

This notation is posted when Wikipedia considers the following entry as questionable.

And scrolling down, one finds a box enclosing the following request:

"This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed."

Apparently Wikipedia considers the article "iffy"—and asks for verification of the assertions.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 11:47 PM

All these tedious conspiracy theories of authorship [Bach/Buxtehude, Shax/Bacon/Marlowe &c] were hash-settled IMO by Mark Twain when he wrote "The works of Homer were not written by Homer, but by another man of the same name living at the same time" --

altho, oddly enough & despite that, Twain was a leading Baconian...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:59 AM

But the problem with that, squiggleMsquiggle, is that Bacon was actually written by Shakespeare....

And you wouldn't believe what was going on between F. Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemingway!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Musket
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:34 AM

And when Billy Bragg wrote the first lines of New England, Paul Simon shouted "Oy! Now then twat!..., oh, its tribute. Gee etc."

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 03:28 AM

Why should that be a "problem", Don? Tho I never heard of old Will writing "Bacon"; are you thinking of "Ham(let)", by any chance?

Best of squiggles 2U

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:30 AM

dear oh dear... whatever next..

will all these expert musicologists be telling us "The Archies" never wrote "Sugar, Sugar" !!!???

"Josie And The Pussycats" and "The Banana Splits" never wrote their immortal theme songs !!!???

"The Monkees" were actually a real band and not chimps dressed up in latex face mask 'human' costumes...

.. when will all earth shattering crackpot conspiracies ever end.......???????

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:36 AM

oh yeah.. almost forgot... "acoustic versus electric !!!???"


"The purpose of this column is to prove that acoustic players have more prestige than electric guitarists.
Here are some reasons why people who play acoustic guitar deserve more respect than electric guitar players.

01. Acoustic guitarists must keep the rhythm of the song going throughout. A lot of electric guitarists pull out solos and no one knows what's going on or whether or not it's being played correctly. Electric guitarists can afford mistakes on stage whereas acoustic guitarists can not.

02. The sound of an acoustic guitar is delicate and precise and pleasing to the appreciative ear. I have heard bands playing electric with the distortion turned up so damn high you can even tell what chords are being played.

03. There are a lot of great songs out there that can be played solely on an acoustic guitar without the backup of a band. You cannot perform a solo electric number nearly as well as a solo acoustic performance. Examples of this are Chet Atkins, James Taylor and Tommy Emmanuel. Acoustic guitar sounds much better.

04. The great acoustic players such as Tommy and Chet are good role models for the kids and are (or in Chets case were) good standup decent members of society. Electric guitar role models such as Jimmy Hendrix advocate the use of drugs and alcohol which demeans us as the guitar playing community.

05. You don't need an amplifier to play an acoustic guitar. You can sit on your bed playing without disturbing anyone and listen to the beautiful sound. You never heard of the neighbours complaining about an acoustic guitarist playing too loud. I believe I have illustrated my point sufficiently to prove it.

Comments are welcomed."

Nostin - 06/18/2004 - "ultimate-guitar.com"

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: PHJim
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 10:11 AM

punkfolkrocker, An electric guitar does not have to be played with "the distortion turned up so damn high". It doesn't need "the back-up of a band". While Joe Pass was a drug addict, he spent the last few decades of his life sober.
Joe Pass
Merle Travis
Ed Bickert

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 10:33 AM

PHJim - yeah I know...

I was quoting a hilariously contentious guitar forum thread OP 'Nostin',
I found through random googling yesterday...

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Musket
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:23 PM

It gave me a giggle too..

Hank Marvin is as clean, well mannered and sober as you can get.

Bert Jansch could drink you under a table, and once did when we booked him and he stayed over with us.

Jimi Hendrix demeaning the "guitar community..." Priceless.

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Keef
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:45 PM

Not just talking about electric guitars but about amplification in general.
LEVELS...it's all about levels!
Just because you can go to ELEVEN doesn't mean you have to!

Even a small amplifier has enough power to turn the audience into GOLDFISH! mouthing the words to the chorus but being impotently inaudible.
Compare that to the audience in a village hall or church where every voice gets the chance to add to the glorious harmonies!

Please....just TURN IT DOWN A BIT.......


Later on in the evening if everyone wants to get up and boogie,,,,
CRANK UP THE VOLUME!!!
ROCK AND ROLL!!

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Keef
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:53 PM

Whoops, I'm not suggesting that you go to church (I'm a devout atheist) but I do like the acoustics of the buildings.
Public toilets have nice acoustics too but they smell bad and you might meet some strange people there!

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: olddude
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:58 PM

Only music the troll jack campin can make is a fart in the bathtub.. Ignore the ass
Acoustic or electric in the right hands and right song is always a pleasure. And so is a banjo

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:24 PM

Let's hear it for Cornelius Heinrich Dretzel:

http://www.jonathanbhall.com/dretzel.html

Not the only candidate - Kellner was the favourite when I first heard about these doubts - but that's a pretty persuasive stylistic point. And in the process Hall seems to have revived a nearly-forgotten piece well worth reviving. (He credits Isolde Ahlgrimm with the first step in the identification - never very well known in the UK, she was a terrific harpsichordist; an EP of a Bach harpsichord concerto by her with Erich Fiala was one of the first records I ever bought, and I've still got it).

And we can add Davey Graham to the list of acoustic guitarists with electric habits.

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:46 PM

Sounds about right.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:57 PM

A friend of mine had an acoustic guitar with a pickup under the saddle. He attached another transducer directly to the back of the soundboard. He took the output from the saddle pickup, ran it through his effects pedals, and back to the soundboard transducer. The result was an acoustic guitar with distortion, delay, chorus, etc. The sound was produced completely by the soundboard of the guitar vibrating, just like any other acoustic guitar, and at the same volume -- no amp, no external speakers. Acoustic or electric?

I'm amused by all the comments about electric guitars being bad because they are played too loud. This is the fault of insensitive musicians, not the type of instrument they are using. Amps have volume knobs, and electric guitars can be played substantially more quietly than acoustics and still sound good. There are also lots of insensitive acoustic players who drown out other instruments.

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 02:57 AM

Dan, I was with you, musically speaking, till you got as far as "banjo."

The output on my variax, which is very much electric, includes a number of established acoustic guitar waveforms, including Gibson Hummingbird and Martin D45. Kind of screws the argument for me. Also, my Gretsch can easily handle finger picking.

So I think people are confusing source with volume here. Acoustic guitar vs accordion? Bagpipes? F#*%!g banjo?

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 03:31 AM

in a straight fight between a Gibson j200 and a black Taiwanese telecaster..

The American looks out of condition and carrying a bit too much weight despite its undeniable class.

I'd say with a vox ac30 in its corner, the black guy looks unbeatable at this stage.

musket - i never doubted you for a minute, as Private Fraser said.

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:08 AM

Don't knock banjos. I am very fond of mine, which came to me quite by chance as a dear friend inherited it from his father who had picked it up years ago as part of a sale lot and had no use for it & let me have it for £10, & I taught myself to do a bit with it. I like its tone, & find it pleasurable to play, & find it appropriate for many of the songs in my rep. Hear it on my youtube channel.

& for crying out loud, forswear prescriptiveness -- it's the 8th Deadly Sin!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 09:45 AM

I grew up as one of the 1970s 'punk rock' generation.

A cultural 'movement' well noted for irreverently debunking received wisdoms and myths,
and striving to demystify and democratize the means of art/cultural production...

So I'll just add.... [ and if I can do this, anybody could...]


With a reasonable quality low priced solid body guitar
and a minimum of affordable & easily portable battery powered equipment
[ie. fits in a small sportsbag or shoulderbag]

an electric guitarist can now create a full range of 'convincing' classic vintage,
and even the heaviest metal, rock tones
at less than normal conversational speaking levels of volume.

Yes.. that's right.. punk and metal guitar tones that can be drowned out
by the noise of an average irritating drunk windbag over-opinionated pub bore...

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 11:05 AM

... and I know I've mentioned these somewhere here in the last couple of years...



VOX APACHE electric travel guitars


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE-JCdRIxr8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAtd0slsqH8

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 11:26 AM

the international language of music........

..a quiet intimate informal Japanese elecoustic blues session...

can you turn the guitar up, you're speaking too loud..

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 11:30 AM

I have a banjo myself and for that matter, have another one on approval as I might buy it.

My comments still stand. No. Seriously.. I can (and have done on many occasion) listen to a good player such as BanjoRay (we haven't seen for a while in The Mowbray Ray!) and I love to thrash out a tune myself when inclined (horizontally..)

But we are comparing two branches of the most influential, versatile and accomplished instruments ever here. Leave plucking a pigskin to Hamie and the Four Skins.

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 06:36 AM

One session I used to attend had banjo's, fiddles, mando's, bazouki and guitars by the dozen, mostly thrashing around to interminable jigs and reels, sometimes even in differant keys, and I thought a bit of bass might help. But, my electric bass wasn't really welcome, "this is an acoustic session" I was haughtily informed - so I took my sousaphone.

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: olddude
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 05:58 PM

I just inherited a cello have no idea what to do but I may get a book maybe fun but I will suck for a long time

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 06:10 PM

my partner plays cello, violin and clarinet (not at the same time) and we regularly play at folk and acoustic sessions - at the previously mentioned "this is an acoustic session" she was informed that her clarinet wasn't traditional! And people wonder why some folk clubs struggle to survive!

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 06:57 PM

interminable jigs and reels

Describing the repertoire of the session that way suggests that the problem they had might have been with your lack of understanding of the music rather than with your instrument.

Electric basses are usually welcome in otherwise-acoustic sessions, most people know the volume knob doesn't have be up at 11. But it does usually require conscious thought to get them to fit in with guitar chordings, particularly if the guitarists are doing more adventurous stuff like Willie Johnson Shetland style. The one time I've been in a session with a regular bass player, she worked off written charts for a couple of years.

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 07:21 PM

Clarinet may not be traditional in the Shetlands, on the Isle of Man, or the Scilly Isles, but it IS tradition in Klezmer music.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST,Bloody amazing
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 08:18 PM

TRUE musicians listen to what is going on around them. I have just attended a concert where 1 accompanist drowned out the vocalists 1 by 1 whilst the other accompanist listened and supported his singers. They played on the same acoustic grand piano.
Whether electric or acoustic is irrelevant - it is HOW it is used. Lead guitarists in particular -Take note.

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 07:39 AM

"If it sounds good, it IS good." If it doesn't....

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 07:58 AM

Ah, now don't forget Mark Twain's assertion that "Wagner's music is better than it sounds"!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!???
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 08:29 AM

BBC news...

"The electric guitar has overtaken the violin in a list of most popular musical instruments for children to play,
says a music exam board.

Top instruments 2014

Keyboard 30%
Piano 28%
Recorder 28%
Classical guitar 20%
Drum kit 14%
Electric Guitar 13%
Violin 12%
Percussion 6%
Bass Guitar 5%"

Electric guitar overtakes violin in music lesson boom

The article goes on to emphasise the extent to which lack of education funding
and low income inhibits children from less well off families
from learning to play any instruments.