|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 24 Oct 14 - 09:15 AM Failed? I don't think so... just not prepared to spend anymore time in discussion with people who are determined to believe that there is no problem with white people blacking up. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Oct 14 - 09:43 AM Rahere - you seem to be a little over satisfied with your prowess at formal classical logic...??? Out here in the real world of haphazard casual social conversation and interaction, the requirements for absolute forensic proof to back up a reasonably well informed subjective 'observation' may not be quite so stringent....????? If X believes there may be sufficient visual & cultural connections between two things to merit the suggestion that it could be more than mere coincidence. Then surely that is valid enough for X to introduce the idea for consideration in an informal discussion... This is not an Oxbridge Don's debate, or a Government inquiry... Btw.. I've researched google but still can find no evidence of a Robertsons Jam Golly dressed as a Morris man... .. for what it's worth.... .. not even a special limited edition badge.... http://www.byegolly.co.uk/ |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Reynard Date: 24 Oct 14 - 10:13 AM I never claimed that the "visual parallels" were any more than a personal feeling of unease(and an aside to this whole debate in any case). This is quite unconnected with the other evidence suggesting a link with minstrelsy- which has been quoted several times on this website already. Or indeed whether blacking up is appropriate in any event. For the record, I'm just reflecting on my reaction to seeing blacked-up Border morris, and then reading a bit about the history of it. I hope I came to it with an open mind- I certainly had a positive view of morris in general- but this aspect made me uneasy, and I've never found any of the justifications very satisfactory. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,matt milton Date: 24 Oct 14 - 02:47 PM @Howard Jones no, not "cowardice" exactly, more a sort of lack of engagement. I say that having looked at the websites of a lot of black morris sides: it's always a case of "the origins are not blackface minstrelcy, so it's all absolutely fine" – that's if it's acknowledged at all. There's never even any suggestion of the idea that some practices and symbols can actually be overtaken by history. I could put it another way: I don't need to ask my black mates what they think of blackface morris.They'd think it was silly old racist people from the provinces. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Steve Gardham Date: 24 Oct 14 - 02:50 PM Perhaps it would put things in a bit more perspective if one of our morris statisticians did a survey of the border morris sides and found out the actual prevalence and geographical distribution of those sides blacking up as compared with those sides that use other colours and patterning. I have seen sides recently all purple, all green, and mixtures, mostly matching their costumes in some way. By the way, historical provenance aside I personally think they make an entertaining and colourful addition to any folk event. At a large festival they add to the variety of dance teams, if say you have at least one Cotswold, one North West, one border,one Molly, one longsword, one rapper; and apologies to any I've left out. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 24 Oct 14 - 03:37 PM Yes, but taking a personal expression of unease, which is a good thing, on to a fully-fledged expression of a major school of folk expression being inherently racist is an entirely different kettle of fish, and quite offensive to those involved: they're fighting words in the part of London I was raised in. We all appreciate there is much we have yet to work out of our society, but let's keep it in context and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you want to go after racism, let's start with a proper cleanup of the Police and legal system, far more needful than Border Morris! I'm not a morrisman, but a historian with some interest in various undertones of the culture inside the Hapsburgs, which is where some of the Morris tradition comes from. I work in Arabic esoteric texts of the 10th and 11th century which laid the foundations of that, and none of that was racist in the terms now described. There was huge ignorance, and more than a bit of typecasting, and huge amount of religiously-based racism, but also a tolerance not massively different from the level of social interaction we are starting to experience now. Find the parallels between the WWII military and the Crusader military, and the social integration then and now, and we may spare ourselves the problems which followed, for example when Brabant set about the remains of the Angevins after Bouvines (think UKIP launching a Crusade against Europe's Arabs). It was called the Albigensian Crusade. What I think we have shown is that there's blacking up and blacking up. If you want to do it to abuse people whose ancestors came from a different continent in the context of the Imperial policy of riding roughshod over them for sheer greed (and I'm not thinking just of the UK here, but most of Western Europe in the second half of the 19th Century), then you are engaged in what is almost certainly a criminal offence. But if you want to do it to maintain a folk tradition which predates blackface minstrelsy and with which some of the greatest scholars of the African heritage have absolutely no problems with, then you're engaged in something which has nothing at all to do with the former, please continue. Otherwise, where will you end? Stopping women using mascara because it can run and streak their faces? Barring coal-mining? No. you must look at the whys and examine them, and if they bear examination, accept them at face value. There's no harm in learning and becoming more precise in the things you dislike. What X has to also allow for is to accept there is the possibility he's wrong, in other words, and adjust when it is shown that this is the case. I believe we have done so. What I'm fearful of is the Chinese Water Torture of persisting in this "mistake" becomes entrenched as truth, in the teeth of the facts. We see it in other memes, and reach the point where one can only conclude that it is being maintained as a matter of cultural malevolence. The US insistence on guns, for example: yet again we argued the case to death, and still they won't do a blind thing to change. OK, keep your bloody opinion, but don't come blaming the rest of us when there are consequences, and allow me mine. Border Morris is Innocent OK! |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,pheasants etc Date: 24 Oct 14 - 04:15 PM Brilliant post Rahere, thank you. Not really following from that, but I think that a lot of 'political correctness' is an algorithimic, 'tick box' approach to racism or whatever when the long-term solution is to explain when miss-understandings occur. The world is complicated enough without making it worse by over-simplifying. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Paul Davenport Date: 25 Oct 14 - 04:42 AM Thanks Rahere, works for me! |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 25 Oct 14 - 08:19 AM Frankly, if it upsets the PC brigade - then tough. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 25 Oct 14 - 08:40 AM Bonzo - you should by now have realised some of us 'PC gone mad' lefties are thicker skinned and have a more irreverent sense of humour than even you !!! Scary thought - We may actually be more alike than we care to admit ??? |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Howard Jones Date: 25 Oct 14 - 10:57 AM Matt Milton, your black mates might assume it was silly old racist people from the provinces, but they'd be mistaken. Whilst we should try to avoid causing genuine offence, we cannot govern our lives because people may jump to wrong conclusions. That way of thinking reminds me of the case in America where a public official lost his job for using the word 'niggardly' when someone took offence because it sounds like an offensive word, even though it comes from entirely different linguistic routes and has no racial overtones. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: ripov Date: 25 Oct 14 - 06:22 PM this may illustrate various points made previously by various posters. Choose what you want to make of it. Just don't suggest that putting paint on the face is a custom peculiar to english (british?) morris. And no doubt someone will suggest that these dancers are actually taking the p... out of Abbots Bromley, and border morris costume, at the same time? |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Phil Edwards Date: 26 Oct 14 - 03:52 AM Honest opinion, Matt: which of these pictures looks more like "silly old racist people from the provinces"? black white (I'm not suggesting for a moment that either one of those groups is made up of racists - just making a suggestion about where that reaction may be coming from.) |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 26 Oct 14 - 05:38 AM I come back to my point, though, as we still don't seem to have passed the point of superficiality. It's not what's on the surface, but underneath, which makes the racist. It is possible a blackface dancer could also be a racist, but that's because the racist is attempting to hijack the tradition to his own nefarious ends. It's far more likely he won't be, because blacking-up requires a certain self-examination. Neither have anything to do with the tradition, which I think we have shown is NOT racist, for all that there is a superficial similarity. You have got to look deeper, and start from a presumtion of innocence. Now, if the B*P decided to launch a Morris side of their own and exploit it, it would be quite right for everyone to come down on them and tell them where to go. Let's hope it never becomes necessary. At the moment I don't think anything on that scale is on the table. Morrismen are people of all different sorts, and it wouldn't surprise me to discover some are on the extreme right, as much as some are on the extreme left. It takes all sorts to make a world, and that can be a good thing too. But if anyone is acting against the interests of part of the population which in the past has been oppressed, it is because they are a racist, not because they are a morrisman - you can be both, and neither, because the two have no know solid connection. And they should be prosecuted as a racist, not as a morrisman, for all that some wits may think the latter is a crime all on its own! What we should be looking for is to find a world where racism became a matter of historic curiosity, like Albigensianism, albeit not for the same reason (the Albigensians having been on the receiving end of an early instance of practical genocide). We're starting to get close to that, and the entire debate about racism from either side takes us away from it, which is so, so sad. Time will let it build, until we see the man and woman and not the skin. A big part of it is the question of ghetto identity and sink estates, and that needs investment and care in not so much empowering as persuading the estates that they have nothing to apoligise for and should start being outgoing, rather than introverted. The day we have a blackface side celebrating at Notting Hill would be a day to be celebrated! After all, there are aspects of Voudon culture which are exactly the reverse, for example the Ghede spirits such as Sanmdi. Whiteface, French court dress of the 19th Century, that would be one hell of a meeting! |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 26 Oct 14 - 06:01 AM What should be mentioned in the wrap-up, lest there be an accusation we ignored it, it that there is a heritage in American folk from the minstrel shows, in that Randy Sparks, who gave John Denver his stage surname and some inspiration, had previously been a founding member of the New Christy Minstrels. But there is precious little transfer from West Coast Country-Folk to Border Morris, whose tunes were established before Denver came to eminence in the 1970s. My mind is currently disappearing in the direction of Border Morris dancing to the tune of "Take Me Home, Country Roads" performed by the Yetties. Right, I'm now in a mood to tackle me tax return... |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 26 Oct 14 - 12:18 PM In the future, is their hope for a compromise, even a solution, to this problematic issue...??? future hope ? |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 26 Oct 14 - 12:24 PM [yes I know - there - f@ck knows what happened then !!!???] |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Noreen Date: 26 Oct 14 - 04:13 PM For those who would like to see what all this is REALLY about: A year in the life of Border Morris |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Skaffen Amtiskaw Date: 26 Oct 14 - 05:40 PM Neither have anything to do with the tradition, which I think we have shown is NOT racist, No you haven't. However, it has been clearly demonstrated that it is NOT a tradition, rather a pretty shoddy revival of one. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 27 Oct 14 - 07:15 AM Oh, please, first time posting and you want to behave like that? Or is that an anagram of something else? Unless you can give a clear link between style and substance, you have no case: simply being argumentative doesn't mean you have a solid argument to debate with. You put up no data in support of your hypothesis, and simply keep coming back to what I posted in the last part of my 24 Oct 14 - 03:37 PM, a continuous stream of exactly this kind of thing. We've shown that the Twmpath and Cefyl traditions has never gone away, and Border came back out of them again. For you to make any headway, you have to show exactly what in these traditions was racist: it's not enough simply to have a hissy fit along the lines of "it's self-evident" and insist that's all you need to end something. The 'Cat exists as much to teach as to debate, and unless you've a track record you can put down on the table, it might be wise to start there. Me, I've a mention in AFSAD, from when I was out of the loop overseas even, I worked with Jon earlier this year and I'm rehearsing with another top band this weekend. Ye Gods, those train tickets haven't been delivered yet... |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Rumncoke Date: 27 Oct 14 - 07:46 AM I had to have it explained to me that a gollywog was supposed to be a black man - I had never made the connection. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Skaffen Amtiskaw Date: 27 Oct 14 - 07:46 AM It's immaterial that the original Border Tradition was racist or not; the fact that it probably was is neither here nor there to the current revival of he practise. Agricultural labourers living in cultural isolation in the 18th / 19th even early 20th centuries were operating under who-knows-what kind of conscience or criteria. Pagan*? Racist? Who cares? For sure this is interesting culturally, historically and in terms of genuine folklore, but the current practise is about as far from all that as you can hope to get, hence, presumably, the wishful thinking that the 1970s Folk Zeitgeist that persists in the daly 21st Century is a bona-fide Tradition, rather than a bogus fabrication by people operating at some considerable cultural & historical remove from the old lore & its practitioners. * Looking at the names some of these latter day revival niggering sides with all their Imbolcs and Beltaines (see Noreen's link below) it seems obvious just how secure their grasp of folklore is. This is LARPing Steamfolk pure and simple; fakelore at it's very finest. Whatever their reason is for blacking up, to so in the context of the multi-cultural UK of 2014 is insensitive at best, and all the more for the excuses we've seen trotted out here. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 27 Oct 14 - 09:18 AM "It probably was": kindly substantiate. I care. The period in question was one when the bulk of the population were actively Christian, particularly in the West Country and Wales, it is the time of the building of all the Churches and the growth of the Chapel movement. Paganism was virtually non-existant, other than in the rather twisted circles of Aleister Crowley at the end of the 19th Century. And what has this to do with paganism? I've shown that at most it was an extension of civil disobedience, coherent with the motivation of the Chapel movement. "/Interesting/"? This is something of a serious debate, and some of the people here are fairly committed to their subject. You just called them racists, which is a fairly offensive and obnoxious thing to do, and all you can do is call it "/interesting/"? 1. I asked you to substantiate your claim and you have not done so. Instead, you introduce some kind of neopaganism without the least evidence that this links to it in any way. 1970s folk zeitgeist? Were you even alive then? Were you involved in it? If you weren't - and your comment shows you weren't - then what the fuck do you know about it? 2. "The old lore". Loredy, loredy, loredy, someone's been reading too much Tolkein, you're away with the fairies. What claim do you have to be able to express yourself with authority on the subject? I should warn you I'm an academic working at postdoctoral level in the world's top university school specialising in the esoteric, the Warburg Institute. I meet the editor of the world's top research publication, Abraxas, on a weekly basis in a study group specialising in the subject. And don't try coming back with a challenge to me, you're the newcomer who's got his arse in the air deserving to have it kicked so hard your adenoids rattle around the obvious space behind your eyes. So, I'm calling your bluff. Hard papers, please, and some serious weight, or an apology and a willingness to learn. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Oct 14 - 09:44 AM f@ck me !!!..... will we now have to submit a CV and sit an entrance exam just to banter and kick ideas around at mudcat !!!??? sod that for a game of post doctoral bollocks..... |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Oct 14 - 10:06 AM Durable links to good citations won't hurt the 'cat. And if you find citations to stories you can't reach without a university library, post the reference and one of us with library access will try to snag it. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 27 Oct 14 - 10:07 AM Most of you don't prat around and know what they're talking about, PFR. When I came on the scene again (the Net not having been much of a reality when I went into exile) you somehow put up with me, and still do. We all sometimes talk ballocks, but rarely coming in on the end of an extensive thread and coming up with such a load of monkey-nuts as that. And when we do, the robustness shows. OK, so I have done a shedload and I occasionally forget to wind it back. But when someone comes sailing in with such a load of scat, and hands me a fan, it would be downright churlish not to ensure it is dispensed widely, if only as an environmental move to ensure it degrades into its raw materials as rapidly as possible. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Skaffen Amtiskaw Date: 27 Oct 14 - 10:22 AM And what has this to do with paganism? Nothing. I was just pointing out that the names of some of these latter-day so-called Border Morris sides on Norreen's link below would indicate a certain bias, as you would have realised if you'd bothered to read my post. You just called them racists, which is a fairly offensive and obnoxious thing to do, and all you can do is call it "/interesting/"? Did I call them racist? I said it was, at best, insensitive to the multi-cultural condition of the UK in 2014. Racist is as racist does though. I'd say the truly obnoxious thing here is blacking-up and using some bollox folkloric excuse to justify it as seems to the Official Position on such matters these days. And what I said was interesting was the old stuff, the old lore - nothing to do with Tolkien, rather the real old thing itself, long dead, as oppose to the hobbyist shite we're on about here and that you in all your academic huff 'n' puff (wholly irrelevant here by the way; Mudcat is a commonlore free-for-all-&-leave-your-damn-qualifications-at-the-door-for-pity's-sake kinda place) seem have mistaken for being something other than fake revivalism. then what the fuck do you know about it? All you really need is to know is just how dumb it is to black-up your face and get upset when someone calls you a racist for doing so. What other reasons can there be? How much else is there to know? How well up must one be on 21st Century Morris-lore and the bogus assumptions that apologists (such as yourself) see as adequate justification? Life's too short, mate. The medium is the message. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Oct 14 - 10:50 AM Rahere - Knowledge is power - absolutely, no arguing with that.... .... but no one likes a show off, or a bully... ok.. fair enough.. you got exasperated and reached for the heavy weapons.. that's understandable.. no big deal.. So step back from the conflict, unload the qualifications & credentials, put them back in the case, lock it securely... My mrs has an MA, but she don't brag about it whenever we're rowing about who's turn it is to nip out to the corner shop, or take the recycle bins out in the rain... |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Skaffen Amtiskaw Date: 27 Oct 14 - 11:18 AM For the record, I've been in on this discussion since the 14th October 2.26pm but got so depressed by the utter bogusness of the Orthodox position that I quit both it, Mudcat and the folkscene (of which I've been an occasional member since 1973, aged 11) on 20th October 8.59am. My return as GUEST, Skaffen Amtiskaw (not an anagram, of course) yesterday was prompted by too much Fursty Ferret on my part & too much huff, puff 'n' bluster on GUEST, Rahere's. I must admit, it's been more fun than I thought today, but alas I must stand my earlier position. Thus do I repeat... Offski - Sedayne! (With the proviso that if Rahere comes up with anything worth responding to I'll be back as Skaffen Amtiskaw, but don't hold your breath...) |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Oct 14 - 11:41 AM Sedayne - please don't bugger off in a principled despair for too long.. There's few enough really interesting 'post discovery of electricity' musicians here as it is... We need every last ally in the stand against those who regard dabbling with a Telecaster or vintage Korg synth as darkest heresy and witchcraft.... |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 27 Oct 14 - 11:53 AM Rumour has it the role of the Prime Minister's bodyguard is being reevaluated - by his daughter Florence. |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Oct 14 - 12:02 PM Look again at the pic; and determine, please, what symbolism can be extrapolated from the fact that, in the background, a 'normal' Morris side can be descried, dancing outside a shop called "Shoe Zone"? Surely it must have some most profound application to something-or-other... Shoe fetishism? Existential bootlessness? ...... Heigh-ho. Think I'll go back to bed.... |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Oct 14 - 12:20 PM MGM·Lion - Semiotics was a prevailing academic fad when I was an under/post grad student though the 80s to early 90s... That single photo is so full to the brim of heavy loaded signifiers a 4000 word end of term essay wouldn't even do justice to it... Thank f@ck I gave all that up before risking my brain permanently imploding...... |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Skaffen Amtiskaw Date: 27 Oct 14 - 12:24 PM Shoes - oo-er - lots of fertility associations there, Michael. Where does one start? But - Shoe Zone? Gives me the tingles just thinking about it... * Okay, PFR! My thang is the revelation of utter ancientness via electrical means. Here's the latest just now by way of - er pertinent hauntology: Hermione Harvestman - Craft : Work 1976 |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Oct 14 - 12:29 PM I've always thought that, etymologically, 'semiotic' ought to mean 'only having one ear'... |
|
Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 27 Oct 14 - 12:36 PM Surely it's halfway to idiotic on a dictatorial scale? |
| Share Thread: |
