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Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances

GUEST,Rahere 24 Oct 14 - 12:54 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 14 - 01:16 PM
Manitas_at_home 24 Oct 14 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,Rahere 24 Oct 14 - 02:38 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Oct 14 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Speen Cringe 24 Oct 14 - 06:29 PM
Mo the caller 24 Oct 14 - 06:37 PM
Dennis the Elder 24 Oct 14 - 07:26 PM
ChanteyLass 24 Oct 14 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,FloraG 25 Oct 14 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,Rahere 25 Oct 14 - 04:07 PM
GUEST 26 Oct 14 - 02:15 AM
GUEST,FloraG 26 Oct 14 - 03:08 AM
GUEST,Woodsie 24 Nov 14 - 08:44 AM
Tradsinger 24 Nov 14 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 24 Nov 14 - 09:08 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 14 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 24 Nov 14 - 09:31 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 14 - 09:38 AM
doc.tom 24 Nov 14 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,Rahere 24 Nov 14 - 01:08 PM
Joe Offer 24 Nov 14 - 08:52 PM
Dennis the Elder 25 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM
Rob Naylor 25 Nov 14 - 10:14 AM
Jack Campin 25 Nov 14 - 10:36 AM
Dennis the Elder 25 Nov 14 - 11:58 AM
Dennis the Elder 25 Nov 14 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Rahere 25 Nov 14 - 12:50 PM
Jack Campin 25 Nov 14 - 02:52 PM
Joe Offer 25 Nov 14 - 03:12 PM
GUEST 25 Nov 14 - 06:40 PM
Jack Campin 25 Nov 14 - 07:06 PM
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Subject: Venues are not nuisances
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 12:54 PM

i hadn't brought this up before as I wanted thee thing to get some foundations.
Various changes in UK legislation are putting live performance venues under threat, for example people being able to move in and slap all kinds on nonsense injunctions on long-established venues, regardless of who was there first.
A petition has been started on Change.org to get this sorted. I suspect most UK 'catters may want to sign it...


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 01:16 PM

Explain. Is this in regard to PRS music licences?


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 01:39 PM

No, it's do with nuisance from noise. A music venue is set up in a non-residential area and operates for years without any problem until someone converts a nearby warehouse or factory into flats. The new residents complain about the noise even though they bought the property in full knowledge of the venue. The same thing happens with people moving into the countryside and then complaining about cocks crowing or into a village and complaining about church bells being rung.


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 02:38 PM

It's not even necessarily about nuisance from noise. Some venues are being hit as far as anyone can tell simply because they're there: a local upstart decides he doesn't want the great unwashed anywhere near his chihuahua...
There's quite sufficient provision to oppose new venues and the renewal of licences which are getting out of order in the various licencing provisions. These new moves are virtually impossible to fight, and are therefore a breach of natural justice, as anyone is entitled to a hearing before action is taken by a public authority against him (CFR Art 41).


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 04:41 PM

This protest is complete bollocks, as anyone who has lived near a peaceful country pub that has suddenly decided that karaoke or a metal jam night can testify.

Go and look up the English law of nuisance. It has been much the same since time immemorial. That an incomer has moved to the nuisance has NEVER prevented the actionable nuisance being an actionable nuisance.

Nobody here with an interest in folk (yes, folk) music need defend the use of antisocial amplification.

If you don't want to be a nuisance - play acoustic.


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: GUEST,Speen Cringe
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 06:29 PM

With respect Richard, bollocks. We've had this problem in Manchester where bijoux litle city centre pads have been created next door to long established venues and the new residents have attempted to have the venue shut down. Something that was a nuisance to no-one for years suddenly becoming a nuisance when people move nextdoor to it, which I think is the same sort of situation that Rahere is describing, is nothing like your example.

And folk enthusiasts can enjoy what you rather geriatrically call antisocial amplification if they want to. Eclectic taste is the new black.


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 06:37 PM

Maybe the venues should bring that up at the planning stage - that they are a valued venue.


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 07:26 PM

Who is there first makes no difference to a noise nuisance, if its a nuisance its a nuisance. From person who in the past has enforced this legislation. I remember objecting when houses were proposed next to a dog kennels, in fact all around them. The council objected, the contractors appealed, the Government granted the appeal and the houses were built. We then got complaints re barking dogs. The Council then paid to move the kennels some where else. If this had not been possible the Kennels would have been served notice and closed. Lucky for the kennels owner, as a council we were reasonable.
What is reasonable is at the heart of Noise Legislation, most enforces of the Control of Pollution Act are reasonable people and attempt compromise. I personally have only served notice when the person creating the noise have, themselves, in my opinion been unreasonable and where I believed that magistrates, Judges etc would agree with me.
Please remember there are two sides to a complaint and don't let your own personal thoughts re folk music etc obstruct what the "Mythical Reasonable Man" would think as reasonable.
Sorry if I used the word reasonable more than a reasonable number of times.


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 09:20 PM

I signed, and I noticed that other people in the US have signed, too. I also noticed that there are many signatures already.


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 04:13 AM

My local scout hut is used as a church on a Sunday morning. Lovely singing - best in the summer when the doors are open. However, the children play in the grounds and one of them screams a lot. The adults don't seem to do anything about it.
We live in an overcrowded island - we can all do things to make our neighbours lives better.
FloraG


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 04:07 PM

As Flora says, we should aim to get along - but tilting the table in this way is not getting along. There are plenty of places you can live which don't have something you dislike nearby, so why behave aggressively, deciding to live where you're going to be a pain in the posterior to someone else? London's getting full of people educated in a culture of entitlement who don't realise other people also have rights. This simply panders to them, and it's time the imbalance is rectified. "I've paid for a ticket, I've a right to sit down" - even if someone with a greater need who's also bought a ticket has to stand. Ego without responsibility. Sociopathy. Somehow, Flora, we've got to somewhere we need to improve. That's what this is about.
Anyway, the choice is yours - at least I've brought it to your attention.


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 02:15 AM

Kinda reminds me of a situation in Basildon way back in the Fifties.

The local community association had built community halls in the middle of the residential areas.

They ran a youth club in one of their halls, which was attended by half a dozen or so kids.

We rented another or their halls on a Sunday night (the only that was free) and ran our own youth club. We bought a record player and played a few of our own records. This was all before disco was ever heard of. We charged sixpence entrance fee.

It was a great hit and we had close to 100 kids attending.

The community association, jealous of our success, closed us down, claiming we made too much noise.

I will admit that we were noisy, but they were the ones who had designed the hall, which was just a wooden hut and our great big 10 watt record player sounded much louder outside than it did inside.


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 03:08 AM

All said, I do feel sorry for people who live in town centres. Take Cheltenham, for example. On Friday and Saturday night it is a race track round the one way system for youngsters with fast cars. Then there is club chucking out time. ' Mixed use' planning has come into fashion again, but I'm not sure I'd want to live there.
FloraG


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Subject: Stop incomers complaining about music
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:44 AM

I did see a discussion on mudcat recently about people who move in close to an established music venue and then complain - but can't find it. Anyway here is a petition against this very type of behaviour
epetition that I thought ye may be interested in
    Threads combined. -Joe Offer-

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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining about music
From: Tradsinger
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 09:00 AM

I can't stand people who are intolerant.


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining about music
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 09:08 AM

it's not just music venues... these same types move out to the "country" and then complain about the noisy/smelly farmers... to the point where states have had to pass "right to farm" bills to protect farmers from the interlopers.

as major part of my own job is trying to protect the environment from these jerks who think that nature is what they see in Disney World...


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining about music
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 09:20 AM

And locally; incomers who tried to stop a church clock chiming!


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining about music
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 09:31 AM

and these are the same kind of jerks who hire landscapers who use gas powered leaf blowers - what!?!, use a rake!?!- and mega grass mowers better suited to golf courses than lawns.

I've seen folks who use a rding lawn mower for a yard that was so small they could have used a rotary push mower and been done in 15 minutes. Couch potato country squires...

and then make their kids play in the street so they don't "damage" the lawn. nice priorities there, guys.


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining about music
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 09:38 AM

'Street' ? You have streets ? ;-)


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining about music
From: doc.tom
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:27 AM

Leting kids play in the street puts them in severe danger of being run over by a traction engine - when will people catch up with the present day?


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining about music
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 01:08 PM

I posted the original, the campaign call from change.org has already finished, but feel free to follow the debate there.


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Subject: RE: Venues are not nuisances
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:52 PM

I can't imagine living in the Temple Bar district of Dublin. It seems that on Fridays, young people from all over Europe fly to Ireland to party in Dublin and Galway. I walked both towns on Friday nights a couple years ago, and I felt very, very old - and I had to watch out for several patches of vomit on the pavement.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM

As an ex-enforcer of noise legislation I have had many complaints where my sympathy has been with the persons allegedly responsible for the problems. These have included -
Cockerels crowing in the countryside
Smells from Chicken, cow and pig dung in the countryside
Believe it or not sheep baa-ing from a city dweller who moved into the countryside
Smells of fish and chips and curry from persons living next to a takeaway.
and many others.
Yes in totally domestic areas there is place to complain, but in the country there has to be a line drawn somewhere, I am very pleased that the word, REASONABLE, is included in most pollution laws.


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 10:14 AM

Richard Bridge: This protest is complete bollocks, as anyone who has lived near a peaceful country pub that has suddenly decided that karaoke or a metal jam night can testify.

I don't think you're lookin gat this properly, Richard. The problem isn't with established venues suddenly deciding to hold noisy evdents....as you rightly point out, that's covered quite adequately and has been for many years by the law of nuisance.

What this petition is highlighting is the situation with venues like, say, The Forum in Tunbridge Wells. It's sited well away from residential properties and has no current neighbours upon whom it inflicts a nuisance. However, plans have been approved for a block of flats to be erected nearby on the site of a derelict garage. The developers are perfectly aware of the existence of the venue, yet have no plans to ensure adequate sound-proofing on the site facing the venue. It may take only 1 complaint from an in-coming flat owner to close down (not "re-locate", there's nowhere to re-locate it to) a venue that's provided for the last 20+ years one of the only places in town that new acts, "breaking" bands and local artistes, both electric and acoustic, can perform to a decent-sized crowd. For a town without a university, and where the main venue tends to promote only tribute acts and re-treads of 1960s pop bands, this venue's a vital place for young people and the idea that a new development, by applyin gthe law of nuisance retro-actively, could cause it to close is very unjust.

What's wrong with giving some credence to prior use?


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 10:36 AM

As an ex-enforcer of noise legislation I have had many complaints where my sympathy has been with the persons allegedly responsible for the problems. These have included [...]
cow and pig dung in the countryside


Not all of that is necessarily agricultural custom from time immemorial. We moved into Newtongrange about 15 years ago, when the only agricultural annoyance was a few distant tractor engines. Then about three years ago somebody started large-scale muckspreading. The whole village reeks of pigshit for about a month every year. I have no idea to what extent the farmer has any choice about that - he's a grumpy bugger, but I'm not expecting curmudgeonry to be made illegal.


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 11:58 AM

Jack if the farmer ploughs it in rather than just cultivating the surface or just leaving it then the result is much more short lived. It is possible, and I have ensured,in the past that the nuisance is reduced to a reasonable level in a reasonable length of time. It is, however, not the easiest nuisance to deal with, some farmers are reasonable, but many are not. Some EHO, prefer an easier life than confronting awkward farmers, make your point strongly if you want more action to alleviate the alleged nuisance.


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 12:09 PM

Rob, a fair point, unfortunatly as i said in an earlier post "Who is there first makes no difference to a noise nuisance, if its a nuisance its a nuisance", however it is possible that a planning department with the help of an Environmental Health Department can throw the problem back at the devellopers and insist that they build some noise reduction methodology into their proposed dwellings. This was done when a pub was converted into dwellings when situated near a very noisy car tuning garage.
Again, this is not always easy and depends a little on amenable local authority staff and members.


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 12:50 PM

What pisses me off about what gives here is that the petition was specific, and you could take it or leave it as you chose. But no, some argumentative so-and-so (and my first draft said what I really mean by that) has to drag it out via a totally unrelated simile to make a point which has no foundation in reality as a result. If Correspondant X is a right nutter, does that mean that Correspondant Y is also one, simply because they post here? No, because the halfway step that's been skipped is the false imputation that all posters must be right nutters. Because a farmer becomes an occasional pain in the butt does that mean that all humans are permanent pains in the butt? No - but what does that say about the person arguing so?
As I say, you could take it or leave it. The proposition was not intended to become the cause of debate, but simply for information, you should have made your minds up long since on the basis of better facts than have been presented here and debating the point now, simply because you've flogged the latest warhorse to death on another thread, is closing the stable door after the said warhorse has departed.
I therefore propose to the Moderators that this thread not be CLOSED, not because it is a subject which should not be debated, but because the people engaging in it are not debating objectvely according to the disciplines of rational debate.


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 02:52 PM

This is poor wording:

Under the Agent of Change principle if a music venue is in place before the residential building, the residential building would be responsible for paying for soundproofing.

What if the music venue switches from relatively quiet stuff to something deafening?

I was the neighbour of such a venue 30 years ago. They had acoustic or so-lightly-amplified-they-might-as-have-been-acoustic acts when I moved in. A couple of years later they suddenly went in for shatteringly loud heavy rock, until 1 or 2am. I had to get up early, this was completely out of order. I complained to the licencing authority. A team of builders arrived within a week and put in sound insulation that reduced these Megadeth soundalikes to a Nick Drake tribute act, as far as you can tell from outside. The pub is still going and still doing same sort of stuff (with added pole dancing some nights) so they can't have had their bottom line seriously affected.


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 03:12 PM

You heard it here first, folks - something about Jack Campin and pole dancing. I missed the details, but it does sound salacious....

I wonder if he charges extra for a lap dance.


    Rahere, I suppose you meant to suggest that the thread now be closed - you said "not" be closed. Our tradition at Mudcat is that individuals have control only of their own posts, but not of threads they start. Once a thread is started, it becomes the property of all who post to it. We close threads rarely, and only if closing the thread fits the needs of the community. As long as people are continuing to enjoy the conversation and the thread has not fallen into utter chaos, I see no reason to close this thread.
    -Joe Offer, Music Editor-


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:40 PM

Well that was in Edinburgh's Pubic Triangle.

I guess you'll be wanting a guided tour while your wife's chanting mantras to the cabbages?

It was a pretty friendly pub to have as a local - often used by off-duty prostitutes from the local massage parlour during their breaks. Apart from its taste in late night bands I didn't have a problem with it.


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Subject: RE: Stop incomers complaining-Venues are not nuisances
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 07:06 PM

That was me. The bouncers confiscated my cookie.


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