BS: Alternative Agriculture

Subject: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 01:46 PM

Whether we like it or not, our food supply in the developed nations is controlled by a very small group of companies. Even small independent farmers are locked into dependence on these mega corps for seed, soil amendments, farm equipment and pest control.

Believe it or not, there do exist alternatives... BUT.. you really have to do your homework to figure out what is available and how best to support those who are doing good work or are still in the learning phase.

organic, locovour, community supported agriculture, farmer's markets, free range, IPM, permaculture, biodynamic... quite a list of terms.

How can the average consumer take back control of their food supply? There's no easy answer and each country or region has its own unique challenges.

Anyone up for an open discussion of what works or doesn't work for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 01:55 PM

our food supply in the developed nations is controlled by a very small group of companies.

What evidence do you have for this? It may well be true in the Americas, but it certainly isn't here in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 02:06 PM

Monsanto have moved far beyond 'the Americas' into large parts of the developing world. Notably India, where there have been alarming rates of suicide among poor farmers who have become indebted en masse to the huge corporation.

Interesting thread Sciencegeek.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 02:14 PM

OK try these two sites:

Nestle Global Site http://www.nestle.com/#

General Mills http://www.generalmills.com/en/Company/Countries.aspx

Through our consolidated businesses, General Mills sells products in more than 100 countries, with offices or manufacturing facilities in more than 30 countries.

A box of Cheerios sits on the kitchen table.
A cup of Yoplait yogurt rests on the refrigerator shelf, and the sweet aroma of Pillsbury Cinnamon Rolls fills the room.

It's breakfast time in America. But whether it's morning in the U.S. or evening in Paris, consumers worldwide turn to General Mills products.

•Jus-Rol pastry in the United Kingdom.
•Chicken prepared with Yoki Seasoned Cassava Flour in Brazil.
•A special occasion treat of a scoop of Häagen-Dazs ice cream in dozens of countries.
Our brands are known around the world for quality, beginning with Gold Medal flour in 1880. To this day, Gold Medal remains the No. 1 selling flour in the United States.

Several of our other brands also occupy the No. 1 or No. 2 market positions – from Pillsbury refrigerated dough to Green Giant frozen vegetables, to Cheerios cereal and Betty Crocker dessert mixes.

As a state regulator I have seen small independent companies bought out by the mega corps... food is just one small part of their global empires.

So, Tom... try goggling a few of your favorite brands... see what you find.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 02:25 PM

And if you really want to get confused, try reading up on Kraft on wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft_Foods

They are still pretty big here in western NY... they make CoolWhip just down the road from my office... imitation whipped cream.. gak! and in the middle of dairy country! Final irony, the son of the dairy farmer down the hill from me got a job at the plant so the family could afford to keep farming.

You can't make up this sh*t, no one would believe you.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 02:27 PM

As for strategies, personally I keep as clear of processed branded 'food products' as I can. Well, not completely, but it's an 80% thing I guess. I realise that's not the norm in modern western society, for a number of reasons. But clearly the advent of advertising has a great deal to answer for regarding the generation of huge food-culture shifts in all modern nations, towards processed branded products and away from more traditional 'real' food. To add to your list above, I applaud the 'slow food' movement, as well as the 'freegan' movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 02:47 PM

I'm sorry sciencegeek, but much of what you say is nonsense.

Yes, we have Jus-Rol pastry, but I've never come across Yoplait yogurt, Pillsbury Cinnamon Rolls or Gold Medal flour here in the UK.

Maybe others have, but to suggest that General Mills are a major player in the UK food market is frankly risible.

And to suggest that our brands are known around the world for quality???, well get up and smell the coffee...

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 02:55 PM

another wiki extract.

The Archer Daniels Midland Company (ADM) is an American global food-processing and commodities-trading corporation, headquartered in Chicago Illinois.[2][3][4] The company operates more than 270 plants and 420 crop procurement facilities worldwide, where cereal grains and oilseeds are processed into products used in food, beverage, nutraceutical, industrial, and animal feed markets worldwide. On Sept. 24, 2013 ADM announced a planned mid 2014 move of its headquarters out of Decatur, and Chicago was announced as the new site for the world headquarters of the agricultural processing conglomerate.[5]

It was named the world's-most-admired food-production company by Fortune magazine for three consecutive years: 2009, 2010 and 2011.[6]

The company also provides agricultural storage and transportation services. The American River Transportation Company along with ADM Trucking, Inc., are subsidiaries of ADM. ADM's revenues for fiscal year 2012 were US$89 billion.[1]

Tom... what I posted were quick snippets from the companies websites. Sorry that you seem incapable of googling on your own..

may I suggest that you use the magic of the internet to find out just what parent company controls your local brands. Beyond that, who is supplying the seed that your food is made from? Or amendments.

A century ago, England imported guano from Chile to fertilize the soil. We now have inorganic "fertilizers"... where do they come from? Who controls them? The issue is much larger than brand names...

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Musket
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 03:05 PM

Sorry Sciencegeek. I live in The UK and have spent time working in The USA. Two very different places. Sure, kids have the option of US imported shit such as McDonalds etc, but many of the so called food I see in Walmart is not allowed to be sold here on health grounds.

Breakfast cereals being an excellent point in case.   

Unlike Tom, I have never heard of Jus-Rol pastry. I am somewhat proud of living in a country where, to my knowledge, you cannot buy spray on cheese,

Yes, we have a problem with over availability of processed food and an increasing number of people not able to make food from scratch. Nestle are on every aisle but you know what? Every public health annual report (England alone has 132 director of ph annual reports) has comparisons with The USA indicating that to be the level we should never sink to.

I appreciate your concern, but contrary to what you guys are led to believe, the developed world isn't personified in Dumbfuckville TX.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: bobad
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 04:17 PM

Not sure what constitutes "alternative" agriculture but we grow and store pretty much all our vegetable needs for the year the way it has been done for ages, ie. using "natural" fertilizers and organic pest control. As a matter of fact I've just come in from planting our garlic crop for next summer's harvest.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Janie
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 07:27 PM

I notice the UK is listed.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Janie
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 08:15 PM

Even if the UK weren't listed (that was the General Mills website, btw) the UK, both geographically and in terms of population, comprises a rather small percentage of the developed and developing world.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 08:18 PM

Having clicked on "United Kingdom" at Janie's link, I saw that more info was provided.

I have read that food products produced by US corporations for the EU are often prepared by leaving out some preservatives and artificial coloring that are considered safe in the US but not in the EU. I have signed online petitions asking that food sold in the US conform to EU standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Janie
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 09:23 PM

I think your point, sciencegeek, is that global corporate conglomerates, not all USA based, have increasing influence on how food is grown and produced. Not just in developed countries, I suspect. There are costs and benefits, short term and medium term. And different interests altruistic and otherwise, will weigh those costs and benefits differently. Long term, we humans will either evolve into a different species or become extinct. Even more long term, our planet and our solar system will die.

For myself, aware that only the short and medium term are relevant, in terms of our species, (or my immediate family, community, region, continent, culture) I struggle to decide how to weigh the costs and benefits of various alternatives in terms of my own values that conflict with one another as one moves along the micro vs macro continuum.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Janie
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 09:33 PM

More accurate, and also so much more complicated as to be beyond my ken, is to say continuums.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 04:07 AM

Gladly the EU, which to be fair represents quite a large number of developed nations from Europe and beyond, have quite stringent labelling legislation for food stuffs. We have clear labelling for GM's in most things though not on milk and dairy where the animals may (were probably) fed GM corn.

I'm not sure about the story behind mega food manufacturers, Nestle is the only one that springs to mind and we know they are evil because - like so many of these multi-nationals - they cynically move in on nations already in terrible poverty, in order to queeze them of what little they do have and make them even more poor. In the case of Nestle, they are possibly most famous for encouraging new mothers to use formula milk instead of breast milk to feed their babies, thus causing the mother to then *have* to use formula, because her own milk would quickly dry up as a consequence.

The US in particular has been in the grip of king corn and GM Corn now in particular. Because the UFDA decided to subsidise farmers to overproduce some years ago, thereby promoting industrial scale farming and pushing out the small farms.

Food independence is a huge deal. These big organisations promote dependence on their product wherever they land.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 07:53 AM

thank you, janie for summing up what was really just a quick statement to help introduce the idea of alternative agriculture. There are many different ways to help preserve biological diversity in both wild and domesticated species. If forget the name of the group that has been working to identify and preserve plants from undeveloped regions before they are exterpated by expanding populations and agriculture.

Fair trade is an organized social movement whose stated goal is to help producers in developing countries achieve better trading conditions and to promote sustainability. Modern western agriculture is not sustainable... it has been altered to rely heavily on inputs that come from outside the system and under the control of companies that are often without any true investment in the locality they are affecting.

Breakfast ceral was mentioned earlier... and I had been thinking of that very case. Back in the late 19th century there was a health movement that resulted in assorted spas and treatments. Two pioneers of the movement developed the idea of the ideal food made from boiled grain mush that was then processed into flakes. Sound familiar?

The spas are long gone, along with their "purges" and clients... but we now have giant companies producing sugary descendents of the original "ideal" food.

Now if we could get back on track about the topic thread...

what ways can we use to make our food supply more sustainable and healthy in the long term?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 08:26 AM

www.dirtdoctor.com is from Dallas, Texas, but aims to provide organic gardening information for around the US. He has a 3-hour Sunday morning radio show and it is picked up on a number of stations and you can stream or get a phone app to listen.

The starting point for newcomers to organic gardening (and related topics) is the Organic Advice center column on the home page, right under the Library of Organic Information box. Each of those links takes you to the basic programs Howard Garrett has developed or learned about from others in the field. It is instructions for newcomers and seasoned veterans alike.

Things are a bit spread out on the site, but if you sign up (it's free) you can use the forums link - it is to an open discussion question/answer area for stuff people are doing now (and can be queried, but keep your keywords few because it either offers tons of results or no results). The area I use most often is the FAQ A to Z list of information called the Natural Organic Library. Subscribing to the weekly newsletter is easy, and they keep it to one topic per week. You can look up organic businesses that have been added to the list (it is mostly North Texas, but as people around the country listen to the radio program or find the site, they send in the names of more businesses).

A lot of the products mentioned are things that organic companies have designed while working with Howard. I suspect he probably gets a cut, but it isn't big - this is a shoestring operation. When he works out a formula he posts it. The most important one as a starting point is his compost tea recipe - that he gives away and you can make for yourself, or you can buy it made and sold by one of several companies.

I've been organic for years, using suggestions from this place.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 08:42 AM

SRS... that reminds me of what we had with Doc & Katy Abraham here in the Finger Lakes region... both sadly gone now, though their book is still available.

the site below supports locovour... though some of the farms ship around the country, which seems a bit paradoxical. Tropical/semi-tropical fruits I can understand... but beef?!?

http://www.localharvest.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 09:53 AM

so called "alternative" farming has become a billion dollar business in much of the western world. It sees a need and fills it and much of what they do is as much profit motivated as is any other large corporation. The recent craze for almond milk, for example, is having a devasting affect on parts of Califoria as it takes a great deal of water to grow almonds....it would seem that those growing almonds and catering to that aspect of society that eschews "dairy" are about profit, not sustainability or stewardship of the land. And yet this product is sold widely in the vegan community.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 10:19 AM

interesting point... the northeast of the US has plenty of rainfall, but lacks the warm climate needed. Not sure if the southern states along the Gulf are any better than California in regards to the requirements for growing almonds.

so are we merely trading one devil for another trying to replace fluid milk with "nut" milk? Dairy is a major industry in New York... but the days when a farmer could milk a dozen or fewer cows and make money are long gone. Growing corn for grain and silage to feed the herds has replaced pasture, barley, mangels and pumpkin which were grown in earlier times. Tractors, pesticides and inorganic fertilizer has radically altered farming.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 11:08 AM

Tom: I'm sorry sciencegeek, but much of what you say is nonsense.

Yes, we have Jus-Rol pastry, but I've never come across Yoplait yogurt, Pillsbury Cinnamon Rolls or Gold Medal flour here in the UK.

I can't believe you've never seen Yoplaity in UK....it's all over the place. And maybe not Pillsbury Cinnamon Rolls as such, but there are a plethora of other Pillsbury products on supermarket shelves.

I think Sciencegeek was just using a couple of illustrative examples of how a large propertion of the developed world's food supply is controlled by a few giant corporations.

Eg, Cadbury now being owned by Kraft, having been bought out using Cadbury's own assets as Kraft's collateral for the loan used to buy it!

Premier Foods owns 17 of the UK's top 20 selling cake brands. The other 3 are owned by United Biscuits.

And you're not "buying local" with niche, "ethical" or premium products either:

- Green and Blacks's chocolate is owned by Kraft
- Innocent Smoothies is now owned by Coca Cola
- Ben and Jerry's ice cream is now a subsidiary of Unilever
- Perrier and San Pellegrino waters are both owned by Nestle
- Tilda Rice, Linda McCartney Foods & New Covent Garden Soups are all owned by US giant Hain Celestial

And that's just the ones off the top of my head. A look at almost any premium, ethical or niche brand will usually show that it's owned, in whole or in part, by one of half a dozen global "food giants".

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 11:18 AM

grrr... computer gremlins...

thank you, Rob for getting the point I was trying to make.

We once had a thriving salt mine nearby that was privately owned for a century... they sold out to a multi-national, who ignored advice from the miners and cut corners - or pillars to be precise- resulting in the collapse of the mine and a local disaster. bean counters not only didn't save any money - they "cooked their goose" instead.

I think eveyone can come up with stories along that vein. So the question is, what do we do about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 11:41 AM

Earth's Soil Is Getting Too Salty for Crops to Grow

From Smithsonian - the subhead says "Buildup of salts on irrigated land has already degraded an area the size of France and is causing $27.3 billion annually in lost crops"

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 11:58 AM

the buildup of salts occurs due to high evaporation rates... a natural process that geologically resulted in things like the Dead Sea and Utah's Salt Lake. It's how "sea salt" is precipitated from sea water... by fresh water contains minerals and irrigated land is also treated with fertilizers... all these concentrate in the soil if not enough rainfall to flush them out.

It's one reason why the fertile crescent is not so fertile any longer.. and plowing the soil increases the rate of evaporation.

So how do we cultivate enough land to feed folks without depleting the fertility of the soil? The strategy adpated by early people included pastoral grazing of their herds to find fresh pasture and then move on before the land is damaged... a practice still followed in Mongolia and sub Saharan Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 12:00 PM

That is a very interesting article and makes one wonder at the terms "health food" and "alternate" farming. I do not know enough science to even contemplate the use of GMO,s , I am not sure what the problem is to be honest. I have read quite a bit and am not much further ahead as both sides seem to be entrenched in a certain opinion. The few Scientific articles I have read seem to support GMO's. No wonder we are all a bit confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 12:16 PM

think of genetic modification as a tool... it is used to alter one set of genes - usually by adding a "new" characteristic.

Think of rice... a major food for billions of people. Add the gene to produce Vitamin A in rice , golden rice, and millions of people are no longer at risk of that vitamin deficiency.

Taht same tool can and is used to make crops resistent to pesticides that are then applied to the crop at high rate that kill off other unintended species.

A tool like cosmetic surgery can repair a cleft palate... or just make someone look different. A tool... it's how that tool is used that is important.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 12:27 PM

Thank you , that really has helped me out when put in that light. Like most of the modern world, it has its pluses and minuses I guess. So, what affect might gmos have on humans and why are people so against them ? Any thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 12:48 PM

organic farmers have limited natural "pesticides" to protect their crops. One such is a bacterium known as Bt. The gene in Bt that kills destructive larva feeding on crops can be added to the crop's genes... it's on 100% of the time... as opposed to organic farmers only using it sparingly and when infestation is high. Why? Because pests can become immune to a pesticide, especially if they are constantly exposed to it. Less resistent larva die, but more resistent one live and breed the next generation.

A more troubling issue for me is that many pesticides used act as hormone or metabolic distruptors. Fine if ONLY pest proved to be affected... but what about other species - including us? Can ingesting GMO crops - we eat the grain or leaves, whatever- be interferring with our own metabolisms? Causing auto immune disorders?

Can bean counters with no scientific background be good judges of the consequences of their decisions?

Do I trust bean counters? Not really... they are tained to look for short term gains and ignore long term consequences...

give me enlightened self interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 12:57 PM

Thanks again. Have no scientific major studies been done ? I know that bean counters can often see only one point of view but does that mean that they alone have provided information on this. I have read some things that suggest that the risk to humans is minimal..am I missing something ? Probabl, yes ?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 01:11 PM

the same institutions that would conduct the studies also are funded by Monsanto and other mega corps... who seem to fund studies that support their claims...

And who can say how long it takes for effects to become apparant. We pump so much into the environment already, there may be a synergistic (two or more influences that multiple an effect) action going on.

think of drug studies that pass tests only to be recalled later as unforseen problems arise... or they just don't work out the way we thought they would. a study is only as good as the questions it asks and you can't ask everything at once.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Janie
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 08:18 PM

My understanding regarding GMO's is a little different - but I may not understand very well myself. It is not that gmo plants are resistant to pesticides, it is that the pesticides become incorporated into the plant and then kill or damage many species of insects and/or birds that are not pests but also vulnerable.

Some gmo plants have been developed that are resistant to herbicides, and then herbicides may be be applied much more heavily, also killing off diversity of plant species which provide food for insects, many of which are beneficial, and many of which, even if pests in the garden, are important food sources for other animals.

Mono culture has always been a threat to biological diversity, even pre-gmo. There is much evidence that diversity is not only the spice of life, it is necessary.

Here is an abstract of a study regarding decline of Monarch butterflies that appears to be attributable to increased use of round-up on corn and soybean fields made possible by gm corn and soybeans to be tolerant to round-up.
http://www.gmoevidence.com/dr-pleasants-roundup-ready-gm-crops-cause-monarch-butterfly-decline/.

Only slight thread drift. Common milkweed is a very tasty and nutritious wild edible plant. Young shoots, flower buds, very immature pods and the silk of still immature pods are all very delicious and nutritious. Do want to be absolutely certain, when harvesting shoots, that you have the right plant, Asclepias syriaca. dogbane and butterfly weed (another milkweed species) have very similar shoots but are poisonous, especially the dogbane. Kill off the milkweed and we are killing off a human food source, that we may well wish we had in the future.

As sg already noted, there is also the reality of the adaptability of fast reproducing organisms such as many insects to become ever more resistant to what controls are known to work. Just as the over-use of of antibiotics has resulted in ever more rapidly occurring resistant and dangerous strains of bacteria, often most common in hospitals. Think MRSA and C-dif.

Re pesticide, treated seed and some gmo seed - read the following. http://www.panna.org/blog/ge-corn-sick-honey-bees-whats-link. Granted this is an article with a strong bias, but I think the facts are pretty well researched.

Thing is, we humans are coming close to the edge in terms of using up the finite resources of this old world, and have pushed the earth to the point that nature is losing its capacity for resiliency in terms of what we humans need given our over-population that yearly worsens.
There are so many confounding factors, and agricultural methods are one piece of a much larger picture.

Mass food production is necessary (forget worrying about poor quality food and additives for a moment - that is really fluff in terms of the big picture) to provide enough food to sustain the current and near-term population of humans around this globe. Also ignore distribution for a minute. People are starving in large numbers around the globe because of issues around distribution of food and resources, but at this point, though not for long, we still are able to produce enough food to feed the world's population of humans. More sustainable methods of growing food are not conducive to mass production of food and are also dependent on local conditions. I am all for following sustainable food production methods. If everyone was, then some of us will be saved from evolutionary processes a bit longer. If there were a massive movement or a world dictator who insisted and enforced long-view sustainable methods of producing food and slowing of global warming we humans will likely survive much longer as a species, but short term, many will starve more quickly than otherwise. If there were a mass movement or a world dictator who insisted and enforced food production methods that would guarantee, in the shorter term, that all should have food and no one starve because of lack of world-wide ability to produce enough food, then more of us live longer short term, but we speed up our evolutionary demise. We humans have proven so adaptable at adapting the world to us and our wants and needs that we have outpaced ourselves.

I hope that doesn't sound gloomy and pessimistic. I don't see it that way. I see it as simply realistic and as presenting all of us with some hard choices and exploration of values.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Janie
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 08:20 PM

trying that failed link again.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Janie
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 09:41 PM

I live in a smallish region in North Carolina with a very high standard of living. Actually, I now live on the edge of that region. It got to expensive for me to live in the heart of it. Highly educated people. Good median income. Socially and politically progressive. Farmers Markets to die for. Raleigh and Greensboro have big NC Dept. of Agriculture daily farmer's markets where the big regional growers (by regional standards - not corporate farms) market their produce and meat products. Locally grown though not any huge amount of organic or other stuff produced by advertised "sustainable" methods. Many more local biweekly markets that are cooperative enterprises. Must produce your crops or animal products within a 50 mile radius of those markets in order to even apply for a space. Smaller growers, many if not most grow organically, grow delicious specialty crops, and the food is truly wonderful and these are good stewards of the earth, by and large.

The real small growers can no longer label their produce "organic" don't have the time or resources to deal with the very cumbersome bureaucracy and fees that now require products labeled organic to be certified such. But if they put "sustainable grown" or "pesticide free" signs up that is still legal, and you can always ask the farmer behind the table about his/her growing methods and farming practices and expect an honest answer. Turned out that certified organic thing had it's victims.

Lots of coops or Whole Foods markets that provide other retail outlets for truly locally grown and sustainably farmed food, harvested very shortly before marketed in these retail outlets. Also lots of good local restaurants that provide them with markets, as well as delicious menus that take advantage of very local produce available in season.

More CSA's than I can shake a stick at. Free range, antibiotic and hormone free and even organically fed chicken, eggs, lamb, beef, pork, goat, cheese of all kinds. And it all costs a pretty penny. Not overpriced and none of these producers are getting rich. But it is expensive to produce food in this manner. These markets are tightly clustered in a few geographically close towns and cities dropped in the middle of 3 otherwise poor and rural counties. That is what creates the market. The CNA's, receptionists in doctors offices, bank tellers, grounds keepers, housekeeping staff, greeters at Walmart, sales clerks in the expensive specialty shops, wait staff and cooks in those restaurants, and the pensioners living on social security alone because they never made enough money to put aside retirement savings, and probably most didn't work where there was a 401K plan offered, can not afford any of that. Folks with modest incomes and families to raise can't afford most of it. Even the people who live out in the country who struggle to makes ends meet don't have the time to tend a garden that is going to have a decent return on the labor and materials needed to produce enough food for it to make financial sense - even using cheapest and most chemical means. Do you know what chicken feed costs? Do you know what it costs to raise your own chicken feed? I mention chickens because they are probably the least expensive source of organic fertilizer and composted manure for a struggling family or old woman or couple.

My grand father was the oldest of 13 kids. His family farmed and the 13 kids were free labor. They were able to take care of themselves, not easy but doable, in the late 19th and early 20th century. Hard life. My grandmother, one of only 2 kids and a father that died of typhoid when she was 4, was mostly raised in a Masonic Home because there weren't enough kids to keep the farm going.

Sustainable practices in the first world are only sustainable for those prosperous enough to be able to sustain anyway. We either have the trust funds, or family safety net to know that if it all went to hell we had family we could rely on, to pay for it, or to do it ourselves. I realize I am generalizing. Also know of several people here on Mudcat who are doing it anyway, with commitment and without the safety net, and also know their lives in many ways are very hard and marginal. And they are doing it still, by choice. Not everyone can do that though, for many and varied personal and social reasons.

Community gardens are great. But community gardens do not last over time without committed volunteers who have other resources, grants, the education to write grants, donations, fundraisers, etc. And a community garden can not produce enough food to feed an entire neighborhood. Does mean it should not be done. But recognize the limitations.

Cost for full share in a seasonal CSA in my county range from $455 to $700. Payments can be made in installments, but the full payment must be made, for most of the CSA's before the season of delivery begins. In otherwords, most CSA's require the ability to fully prepay for the season before crops start coming in. Nothing unreasonable about that. But out of reach for low income households. In my area, many low income households heat with fuel oil or propane. The prepayment requirement, even in installments, is out of reach because during the months prior to the growing season, they are stretched, and beyond stretched, to buy heating fuel through the cold months.

With truly subsistence living, hard as it is, it is possible, if the gods, weather and health permits, to pay it forward. Sustainable practices, on a global scale, or even on a country/societal scale, require conditions and acceptance of subsistence living (another generalization. I know there are exceptions.) When one must work away from home one does not have the hours (from can't see to can't see) to devote to subsistence.

Realize this may seem like a ramble to many, if not most of you. Hope at least some of you get my not well articulated drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Musket
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 02:48 AM

Still looking for scapegoats?

Try taking a leaf from the books of the developed world you insist you are representative of....

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 06:32 AM

Rob makes a good point about funky seeming 'niche' 'ethical' 'health' food manufactuers. As soon as they register as competition in any way, these big corporations are ruthlessly acquisitive.

I recall an interview a few years ago now, where they were talking to the main guy at Innocent - the people that made such a huge success of rebranding carrot pulp and mashed bananas :-D

He spoke about how Coca Cola were aggressively targeting Innocent, and how Coke had told him in no uncertain terms to either sell the company to them ...or be destroyed by them.

At the time, he said he wasn't going to sell to Coke, no way! Now, Innocent is owned by Coke. No surprises really, a typical story.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 08:56 AM

Graphic showing who owns all the major brands in the world: CLICK

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 09:08 AM

can't say I follow the comment about scapegoats... maybe a little background? Are we talking about the East India Company? or maybe Disney's attempt to take over the world?

anyhow... as a state regulator I have personally seen a number or practices that infuriate me. Like a new company spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, a year or more of going through the regulatory process to permit an alternative energy facility that spews fewer pollutants into the environment... but then is never built because the coal using local electric compnaies buy them out for millions of dollars and keep on using coal. Then request higher rates to keep profitable. Or patents on better, environmentally friendly products being bought by mega corps and kept under wraps.

Twenty some years ago, when serving on the state board for our organic farmers group I got to hear a talk by the head of the USDA Small Farms section - he and his secretary were the total workforce of that section. Meanwhile the family that raised most of the sugar cane in the western hemisphere made generous contributions to both politcal parties and got massive subsidies from the USDA.

Oh, cs... remember that GMO is a tool... just as a hammer can be used to build a shed or a house, or pull them apart, GMO can tailor crops in more than one way. Monsanto wants to sell more pesticide, they fund products that allow them to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Janie
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 07:17 PM

Quite a graphic! I recognize all those brands as sold in the USA. Wondering if the graphic just focused on US brand names owned by those companies or if those companies also have products marketed under different names in other countries in addition to those illustrated?

Good points, sciencegeek. Really does come down to "follow the money", doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 06:18 AM

Janie, most of them (I'd say about 85%) are available in the UK too. At least 60% I've also seen in Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: Musket
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 07:16 AM

Go on. I bet you can't guess when The East India Company was dissolved.

The car park at EuroDisney will make wonderful allotments though.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Agriculture
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 07:59 AM

LOL... Musket, why guess when you have wiki? Boy, they lasted longer than I thought they had.

As for Disney... much as I loved Walt when I was a kid - devastated when he died, it was like losing a favorite uncle... I'm no fan of the company he left behind...

we can thank Mickey Mouse for what will likely prove to be eternal copywrights... because, unlike mere humans, corporations can go on forever - or at least centuries like the East India Co.