BS: Conspiracy theories

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 02:03 AM

Lincoln's assassination was part of a conspiracy. We know the names of all the conspirators, because they were caught. There are some open questions; was Mary Surratt involved? How much did Dr. Mudd know? But we know the names of Booth's fellow conspirators, and that they planned to kill Lincoln and his cabinet, because several of them told us what they knew.

I remember Watergate. John Dean couldn't keep it quiet. G.Gordon Liddy bragged about what he did.

The thing about conspiracies is that more than one person is involved. The more people who share a secret the more chances there are it won't stay secret.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:46 AM

And, then there are the people with much time on their hands, who manufacture cartoon conspiracy theories. Cartoon characters and organuzations are joined in a pllot to promote a gay-drug society to children. Many of these conspiracies are "thought-up made-up" by right-wing (nut) religious folks. One recent example is targeting the Disney movie Frozen by the National Catholic Register and a few vocal anti-gay, right-wing religious folks/ entertainement personalities (one example below)?

the Mormon blogger Kathryn Skaggs   

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 10:04 AM

Here in the UK, if you'd said 3 years ago:-

Jimmy Saville is a serial sex offender.

The Hillsborough disaster was a massive
police cover-up.

Margaret Thatcher intended all along to close all British coalmines.

- you would have been called a "conspiracy theorist".

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 01:01 PM

I differentiate between organized conspiracies and just 'group think'.

Trying to assassinate Hitler was a conspiracy- police tending to not admit anything bad about 'their own' is sometimes a conspiracy, sometimes just group-think.

9/11 was a conspiracy... but if it had included the dozens (or hundreds) necessary to do everything some claim, it would have never been kept quiet.

Just suspecting something about an individual like Saville or Thatcher doesn't really seem to fit.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 01:10 PM

Suspecting that people who complained about Saville were being sidelined and evidence hidden isn't suspecting about an individual. And there does seem to be something odd about the disappearance of Geoffrey Dicken's papers about high level child abuse, and the report data which was disappeared in Rotherham.

Which isn't what I was going to post.

Which was: setting up the concept of completely nutty, tinfoil helmeted, conspiracy theorists could be a very effective smokescreen to hide the real things. It is quite clear that throughout history there have been conspiracies, often combined with cockups, but not always.

With the Manhattan project, the context made keeping it secret much more likely than it would be in the cases of the Moon flights, which similarly involved very many people (one of whom I know).

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

Saville & co aren't conspiracy. There seems to be enough out there in terms of hard facts to have out him in court had he lived. That ain't conspiracy.

Conspiracy includes not believing what happens when larger than life people or events are concerned, looking for the fantastic theory to match their fantastic persona.

It also is a term used to denote those who lie about others in order to sway opinion and try to convince people to hate them. In return they call anything nice a "liberal conspiracy." Sad but true, such scum exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 02:11 PM

"I differentiate between organized conspiracies and just 'group think'.""

And, at times there is more "following" being done by "a group" in a group think, than individual thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:45 PM

As my old drinkin' buddy Ben Franklin said, "Two can keep a secret if one of them is dead."

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:37 PM

Have you noticed that whenever this thread looks like it is about to drop off the bottom the page, it comes back to the top of the list again?

Spooky coincidence or conspiracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:43 PM

24 beer in a case.
24 hours in a day.
Coincidence, or conspiracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:26 PM

24 beer in a case.
24 hours in a day.
Coincidence, or conspiracy?

Neither; that's ergonomic design.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 11:57 AM

(trying to think of any famous conspiracy theories that were borne out... I suppose there must be a couple)

Britain assisted the US in torturing the people kidnapped by American agents after 9/11:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/11/7-things-diego-garcia-rendition-flights-documentaton-water-damage

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 12:32 PM

jonestown 

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 12:36 PM

""After World War II, rumors circulated that German astronauts had traveled to the moon and established a top-secret facility there. Some even speculated that Adolf Hitler faked his own death, fled the planet and lived out the rest of his days in an underground lunar hideout. Connections were also drawn between flying saucer sightings—including the famous incident near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947—with the Nazis' alleged UFO development program. These theories form the basis of the science fiction novel "Rocket Ship Galileo," published by Robert A. Heinlein in 1947.""




Nazi moon colony 

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 12:44 PM

The Hollow Earth Theory 



The Hollow Earth 

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:59 PM

And let us not forget MK Ultra. Put on your tinfoil hats.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:00 PM

The Business Plot: another conspiracy theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Owl Glass
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:26 AM

I used to be paranoid - Then they got me!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 08:03 AM

"Even paranoids have enemies."

Kissinger

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 09:39 AM

""Governments hide problematic truths from the people (such as how much they are being spied on for example). The police close ranks to protect themselves when people die under their watch (at a football match for example). Dossiers (about child abuse in high places for example) go 'missing.'""

Those mentioned above are quite broad generalizations about organizations - greater than what many would see as a traditional conspiracy theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 02:30 PM

would the millennium scare come under this category, when millions of us paid out to protect our computers from the crash that was not ?.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 03:48 PM

pete was gullible?

Surely not........

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:15 PM

The crash was avoided by lots of programmers editing many lines of code to be sure that the date didn't shut things off..(in PCs anyway... Macs were safe.)

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:40 AM

Now that Pete has posted,it occurs to me that the notorious religious skeptic, Musket, did not mention what some consider to be the greatest conspiracy of all time,The Passover Plot

Here's a quote from the link that summarizes it:

"the central mystery of Jesus' death and resurrection was carefully planned to fulfill biblical prophecies. His crucifixion was targeted for the day before the Jewish Passover in the knowledge that the bodies would be taken down before the sabbath. A drug administered to Jesus, perhaps in the sponge mentioned in John 19:29, slowed his heartbeat and put him in a state of suspended animation. Friends and disciples had arranged to recover his body and start reanimation efforts as soon as possible. - The plan failed when a Roman soldier ran a spear into his side (John 19:34). The aftermath had to be improvised."

You're such a slacker, Musket...

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 03:15 AM

Oh I don't know. There are just as many conspiracy theories in Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. Come to think of it, most soap opera scripts have them.

What makes the bible so special?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 03:58 AM

Musket: "What makes the bible so special?"

Ummm...could it be that it is the world's best selling book...ever??
(True story)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:29 AM

Actually, the world's best selling book was Chairman Mao's red book. (True story.) There are many different books calling themselves The Bible.

Although like the bible, Mao's dictat hadn't much truth between the covers... I suppose there were less things that physically couldn't happen, to be fair to him.





Goofus, have a chat with your imaginary friend, he might be able to advise you on some of your more weird notions. After all, real people have tried and failed...

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:48 AM

According to the Canadian journalist, Naomi Klein, in her new book 'This Changes Everything' (2014)about the politics of climate change:

In 2013 in the US alone, the oil and gas industry spent just under $400,000 A DAY (!) lobbying Congress and government officials and doled out a record $73,000,000 in federal campaign and political donations in the 2012 election cycle.

In Canada, the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers spoke with government officials 536 times between 2008 and 2012 whilst TransCanada, another fossil fuel corporation spoke 279 times. By contrast The Climate Action Network spoke only 6 times.

Klein suggests that, in the UK, "it has become increasingly difficult to discern where the oil and gas industry ends and the British government begins". She also tells us that at least 50 employees of fossil fuel companies have been placed within government, to work on energy issues in the last 4 years. They are provided free of charge and work for secondments of up to 2 years. In the first year of David Cameron's government, energy industry representatives met with officials from the Department of Energy and Climate Change roughly 11 times more frequently than with green groups.

I don't know about you, but that all sounds like a (non-theoretical) conspiracy to me - and one which, sadly, is a matter of public record. Why do we let them get away with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 09:07 AM

That Passover Plot guest was me. You're just making excuses for slacking, Musket. The Passover Plot, if there was one, affected the whole direction of Western Civilization(if there was one).

When you bring up Chairman Mao's Little Red Book, you didn't bother to mention the Communist Conspiracy, more slacking. Do you even bother to get up in the morning?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 09:32 AM

No. Wanking feels better if you stay in bed.

Mind you, when someone posts aiming at me and can't spell "summarises" I make little mental links as to where they are coming from eh?

This passover plot. How can it be a conspiracy? For that, it has to be a theory regarding how something happened. Based on a book of fairy stories, "happened" is a product of imagination in the first place. It can only be a conspiracy if it is contained in the story. You make it read as if Jesus actually existed, as described in the novel.

Like I said, far better conspiracies laid down as part of the plot in Harry Potter and (I assume) Knobenders and Corrie.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:30 PM

thankyou bill, for an intelligent answer to my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:50 PM

"....as if Jesus actually existed......" says musket.
somehow, I reckon, there must be many more historians that accept his existence, even if not so many accept the details and claims of the bible narrative and testimony.
reference is made to him in secular early sources, or to the church that bears his name. josephus reference to him is often claimed as a later Christian revision/addition, but apart from his works being not the only witness, the references being there, strongly suggest there must have been a Jesus , even were his claims false.
but, if the claims are true, it is doubtful that our philosophically committed skeptics will countenance such a prospect, and if they can convince themselves ,and others, that he did not even exist, they can comfort themselves the more.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 07:35 PM

You made little mental links as to where I'm coming from, eh? Glad you figured it out. Next time you're in the neighborhood, drop by. We can head over to Walmart and get some Cheez Wiz. I'll make Nachos. And don't worry, I've got plenty of Bud in the fridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM

Come on pete, quote my whole sentence eh? I said "as in the novel." There appears to be recorded proof of a political agitator who the local chiefs wanted keeping quiet and the Romans obliged, and this would appear to be the bloke the Jesus myth was built on.

The "as in the novel" covers the things that can't really happen, mainly because they were borrowed from earlier mythology in the first place. You can't be the son of anybody other than a man and a woman, with sex taking place, up till about 40 years ago. You can't turn water into wine. You can't tell a dead man to come back to life if he actually was dead. You can say your Dad is a God, only Chris Waddle's kids can say that with conviction. You can't be crucified and come back to life. The Romans didn't fuck about when it came to executions, they were quite good at it.

So.. You can't have Stim's passover plot described as a conspiracy either. Conspiracies in novels have to be in the novel itself, otherwise they are at best commentary and at worst plagiarism.

Stim.. When I said "coming from" did you think I meant geographically? Ok, gave me a chuckle.

(Bud? Tried it once. I'll give it a miss if you don't mind. I like beer though if you have any. Walmart own Morrisons over here. I am sure we can get real food, although I hear they do sell processed corn snacks for poor people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM

Walmart doesn't own Morrisons. An ex-Walmart manager is on the Morrison's team. Walmart owns Asda.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:54 AM

As you were. Thanks for that. I did mean Asda. The other one got in my mind because I am picking up some dry cleaning from them later today...

I think it is Sainsburys who deliver our groceries. I call at a Tesco just off the motorway if we need anything in the meantime.

All these different named supermarkets selling the same make of baked beans.. It's a conspiracy I tell you....

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:21 PM

Though it might not have been clear, I was making a joke. We do that sometimes when we need a break from being self-righteous. Not often, though. Just to be clear, all of it was a joke. Right down to the Bud.

The part about the gun rack in my truck would have been a joke if I'd actually said it, but I didn't, so it wasn't, and I must have been serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:29 AM

Does Walmart sell spray on cheese perchance?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 05:20 AM

MusketThere appears to be recorded proof of a political agitator who the local chiefs wanted keeping quiet and the Romans obliged, and this would appear to be the bloke the Jesus myth was built on.

There's actually virtually no recorded proof that the biblical Jesus ever existed. Josephus was at best recounting stories about Jesus that were then circulating (and nobody denies that by AD 90, when Josephus was writing, such stories were circulating) and at worst is a later insertion. Other than that there's a mention in Tacitus, but he is only mentioning something that he has heard...ie, that the current sect called Christians believe that such a person existed and was condemend to death by Pilate. No evidence as such for a historical person.

There are *no* contemporary sources at all which mention Jesus' existence during his supposed lifetime...which is pretty incredible when you consider that the gospels mention him being followed by "innumerable" hordes of people, that his fame was known far and wide, and that he was a thorn in the side of both the Jewish and Roman establishments. Someone like Philo-Judaeus, who was in Jerusalem at the time when Jesus was supposed to be having such an impact on everyone, is totally silent about him, though his writings mention other people of the period who had far less impact than the gospels attribute to Jesus.

Timings and contradictions in the Gospels themselves are rife.Matthew says Jesus was born when Herod was King of Judea. Luke says he was born when Quirinius was Governor of Syria. He could not have been born during a joint period of administration of these two rulers because Herod died in the year 4 B.C and Quirinius didn't become Governor of Syria until ten years later. Any census conducted under Quirinius' rule would have to have occurred at least 10 years after Herod could have arranged for the killing of boy children!

As for Censuses: Roman censuses did NOT require people to return to the towns of their birth, but were enumerated in the towns where they lived and worked. So if Joseph and Mary were living in Nazareth, that's where they would have been assessed for the census, with no need at all to travel to Bethlehem. We also know from surviving Roman documents that the census conducted in 6 AD (10 years after Herod died) was for Judea only, and did not include Galilee.

Neither is there any other extant record that Herod (who died before this census that *didn't* require people to travel away from home) had a large number of boy children slaughtered...something that other writers of the period would surely have remarked on, it being a fairly major thing to occur.

We can go all the way through the gospels like this, finding large amounts of information that is there for effect/ propaganda purposes, but that does not stack up with what we know to be historically or legally accurate (eg Jesus' supposed quotation about the status of a wife divorcing her husband...made at a time when wives *had* no right to initiate a divorce). Or the whole ludicrous legality of the trial, betrayal and execution which mixes up Jewish and Roman legal processes in a way which is almost inconceivable could have really occurred.

The simple truth is that the four Gospels are historically worthless. They abound in contradictions. There is very little in them that can be depended upon as true, while there is much in them that we certainly know to be false, and that other than the Gospels, there is virtually no evidence for the historical existence of this person.

The Talmud has 2 mentions of a "Jeshua": There are to a Jeshua bar Pandira, stoned to death and then hung on a tree at some unspecified date, and to a Jeshua ben Stada, stoned to death and hung on a tree at Lydda sometime between 100AD and 130AD. Niether of these could be the "Jesus" of the gospels.

The only real contemporary evidence for the existence of a historical prophet or "holy" person of the period is the mention in various of the Qumran (Dead Sea) scrolls of someone called "The Teacher".

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:33 AM

""Does Walmart sell spray on cheese perchance?""

I am curious as to what you have a desire to spray it on?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:11 AM

Rob. You'll be telling me next that Middke Earth doesn't exist. Yet if you go into a branch of Games Worshop, they'll probably give you a postcode to put in your satnav. Granted, they don't know much about girlfriends or social skills but Middle Earth? Historians the lot of 'em.

So I take it that even the bit about a bloke called Jesus who didn't like the corruption of the locals who did well under the Romans isn't built on known facts?

Wow.

Even rational people tend to accept the myth was built on documentary evidence of a bloke existing who got cult status after his death, a bit like Ron Hubbard.

So if a Christian tries to tell me anything, I can put my hand up to their face and and say "you lied to me as a child, you twat."

How interesting.....

Oy TC Keith! Any more fairy stories about WW1, Palestine or public health epidemiology you want to retract?!


Ed. You tell me what they use spray on cheese for. I'm as curious as the next fine diner.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:28 AM

"You tell me what they use spray on cheese for"

Beats me, (I never used it, never saw it). But, consider the multi uses for WD40.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:34 AM

Musket.... :-)

L. Ron Hubbard is a great example of how a complete (and verifiably false, even allowing for the litigous nature of Scientology) mythology can be built of the most insubstantial foundations!

Me, I'm waiting for Ragnarok!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:39 AM

Perhaps now isn't the time to point out my Mr Hubbard comparison wasn't as random as most of my uttering.



WD40? Certainly tastes better than Monteray Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:46 AM

A perspective on one, so called, cheese product.

No cheese, cheese products 

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 09:35 AM

What a friend we have in Cheeses,
Christ Almighty what a pal . . .

Agent Orange was a conspiracy theory at one time. We all know that was bullshit, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:29 AM

Blessed be the cheesemakers!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:30 AM

The other day a lady on the bus asked me I "knew Jesus". When I told her that I had no religious convictions and was, in fact, an agnostic (I'll think about believing when you produce some evidence)she went off to sit elsewhere on the bus. That could be, of course, because I had just farted (although can't recall doing so) but probably because she didn't want to sit next to an 'atheist'. So much for Christian tolerance! God (sic) knows what she would have done if I had been aware of then, and had told her about, Rob Naylor's piece above!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM

I'd shout to the others near her to budge up because Jesus sought the company of prostitutes, or however the story goes...

By the way, don't go blowing the myth too quickly. I get a laugh around Easter time in the folk clubs, doing my "Jesus on a rubber cross" routine.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 01:21 PM

I wonder who these doctors of religion are, from whom rob takes such assurance to bolster his unbelief in even the person of Christ . I can certainly cite many whose relevant qualifications apply, who vouch for his historicity. but to be fair, it should be the data/ evidence, not the numbers and authority arguments that count.......or I should be doing the same as the evolutionists , in arguing from that angle.
an argument from silence is hardly conclusive, and that argument assumes that political, secular commentators will make much mention of religious issues. however, reference to Jesus and/or his followers are not so far removed, and are close enough to be challenged at the time. there are more than rob concedes...
pliny the younger, writing to emperor Trajan
the Syrian,mara ben-serapion [british museum]
tacitus
Suetonius in -the life of Claudius.
josephus...there is an incidental ref beside the contested ref.
the Talmud contains hostile ref [ which makes it all the more valuable !]
most of the foregoing if not all, may not be written in Jesus' lifetime here, but might well be closer to the time than many other events and persons that are accepted as historical.....as, for those, there are no philosophical filtering considerations.

there have been many claims that details in the bible were wrong, but then archaeology has confirmed them. it is now known that quirinius held relevant office on two occasions, and so lukes setting seems to be confirmed. wait long enough, and chances are other details will be too.