Patriotism

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM

posted on a previous thread on patriotism. Settle in. It's fairly long.

=====

Patriotism. Tricky subject. I can understand it in a sense—a sort of affinity with the area in which random chance determined that one would be born, especially if one lived in that location for a time. But I have never understood the fanatical adherence some people have to a plot of land.

I have lived in Seattle off and on almost all my life, but I spent my first nine years in Southern California—Pasadena, to be exact. In the mid-1980s, my wife and I flew to Long Beach (which, like Pasadena, could be regarded as a suburb of the sprawling Los Angeles megalopolis) to visit friends for a week or two. When we stepped off the plane at the Long Beach airport, suddenly the feel of the air, the temperature, the smells, the sight of tall palm trees—I had this strange feeling that I had "returned home." My reaction when I got off the plane was immediate and visceral. Yet, during the many decades that I have lived in the Pacific Northwest, I can't say that I really missed Southern California. And when I got off the plane a week or so later at the Seattle-Tacoma airport, I had that same feeling I'd felt in Long Beach. I had "returned home."

During my grade school years in California, along with the usual curriculum (readin', writin', 'rithmetic), I was also instructed in a number of patriotic practices, such as the flag code (proper and respectful handling of the flag, when to display it, etc.), and was required to memorize such things as the Pledge of Allegiance and the words to "The Star-Spangled Banner." I received an extra credit gold star for drawing the American flag with colored pencils, with the Pledge of Allegiance carefully printed beneath it.

The flag, the Pledge of Allegiance, the national anthem, are the external trappings—the ritual—of what we refer to as patriotism. Some folks regard these ritualistic aspects as sacrosanct and never seem to get beyond them to what those ritual practices are supposed to represent (a not uncommon in other areas as well). I began to learn what these things meant some years later in high school. My American history teacher was excellent. Along with the usual high points, he did not shy away from such things as slavery and what led up to the Civil War, and treatment of Native Americans. He also taught civics classes, in which we studied the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. One important lesson that came across was that when the country went wrong, it was generally because it failed to observe the principles stated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

If one is well-acquainted with the Constitution, a little gimlet-eyed observation reveals that some of our elected national leaders, despite taking an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution upon entering office, did not and do not always abide by that oath. This was (is) generally in order to benefit some private interests with which they were associated or to which they felt some obligation. In fact, it often appears to be something of a game. How far can they depart from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights before the citizens noticed and protested?

Well—quite a distance, it appears. Lobbying has become a commonly accepted practice in American politics. For "lobbying," read "bribery." Why is this tolerated?

I kept hearing that "America is the greatest country in the world." And, indeed, it has some fine achievements in its history. The stated principles on which the country was founded are admirable—and were indeed ground-breaking at the time they were adopted. But if one examines aspects of the country's history that most high school teachers are reluctant to talk about, and if one is aware of the continuing revelations from "whistle-blowers" about how some of our elected officials and our government agencies really operate, it more than establishes that "the greatest country in the world" has a very dark side. That dark side, motivated by greed and power-lust, callously disregards the plight of the country's weakest and neediest citizens in order to pander to the richest and most powerful. And it engages in bullying and exploitive behavior toward other countries around the world, and then either conceals it or wraps it in the flag in order to hoodwink American citizens into accepting it, usually in the name of "national security."

This emotional mantra, "America is the greatest country in the world," blinds many people to the fact that there are older and wiser countries from whom we could learn much. For example, a comparison of the allocation of tax revenues that the United States government spends on such things as education, health, the military, etc., with what other countries spend is very revealing, especially if one also compares rates of infant mortality, longevity, the availability of quality health care to all citizens, quality of education, standard of living—and satisfaction with life in general (last I heard, Denmark leads here), reveals the uncomfortable fact that, by almost every index, America can hardly be considered as "the greatest country in the world."

If we feel that other countries should embrace the "American way of life," trying to cram it down their throats with the butt of a rifle is not the way to go about it. First of all, we need to abandon that jingoistic mantra and do an agonizing reappraisal of just what our "American way of life" amounts to, and see how it compares with that in the U. K., in France, in Germany, Norway, Sweden, the rest of Europe, in other parts of the world such as Japan, Australia. . . .

There is a simple principle:   if we think other countries should embrace our way of life, then our way of life needs to be admirable and desirable enough so they want to embrace it. We should lead, not by force, not by admonition, but by example. If our hubris as Americans is so great that we feel like we need to be parents to the rest of the world, then there is a valuable lesson in parenting in a work of fiction:   To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee. Atticus Finch knew that if his children were to grow up to be moral persons, then he had to be that kind of person himself.

I recently heard of a small Central American country (one of the countries usually characterized as a "banana republic" ruled by a petty military dictator) where the democratically elected president and governing body determined that their relations with both their citizens and their neighbors were sufficiently stable and friendly that they had no need of military forces, so they disbanded their military and applied the money saved to improving their educational system.

"But we need our military!" you say. "Why?" say I. "Because of the terrorists! Because of the people in the world who hate America!" you answer. But I then respond:   "Perhaps we should ask the terrorists, 'Why do you hate us so much?' And then we should listen carefully to their answer."

The true patriot is often labeled by others as being unpatriotic. The true patriot is often confronted by the exasperated remark, "Well, if you don't like it here in America, why don't you go somewhere else?" Well, maybe that's not such a bad question. A lot of Americans are descendants of people who emigrated from countries that were tyrannical or oppressive. Many people emigrated from Germany in the 1930s. So that's always an option. But of course that means there would be one less person who sees what's wrong and can help attempt to set things right.

The true patriot is loyal to the moral principles and the stated ideals upon which the country was founded. Not to the elected officials. Especially when those elected officials stray from those principles and ideals. Elected officials, upon entering office, take an oath to uphold those principles and ideals, and it is the moral obligation of the true patriot to call them on it if they depart from their oath. And to keep calling them on it, in the company of other patriots, until they are either shamed into returning to those principles or are replaced by other elected officials who will.

On a travel program on the radio a few days ago, the interviewer asked a travel writer why it is that a particular European country's government seems to be especially responsive to the needs of its citizens. "Because," said the travel writer, "they have a long history of throwing out corrupt or unresponsive leaders. Elected officials are afraid of what the citizens might do if they don't toe the line."

A true patriot is not someone who is rooted to a particular plot of land. A true patriot is one who adheres to a set of principles and ideals. And when and if the country fails to live up to those principles and ideals, the true patriot takes a stand, cries "foul!" and demands that its elected officials either return to those principles or be replaced.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:17 PM

Jingoism - the feelings and beliefs of people who think that their country is always right and who are in favor of aggressive acts against other countries.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:59 PM

"I really don't see the distiction between nationalism, patriotism, and jingoism."

The distinction was made by George Orwell in his essay Notes on Nationalism in 1945 (reprinted in England Your England)

He summarises his arguement:

""Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:42 PM

Oops, double post-first one seemed notto take. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:29 PM

"" I think the USA has the best idea for how to run a country""

Beyond patriotism associated with being on team USA, I am curious on what reasoning/criteria and comparisons (among world democratic governments) brought you to this belief/conclusion? Forming a free and democratic country was hardly a unique idea hatched in the USA a few hundred years ago?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:15 PM

"" I think the USA has the best idea for how to run a country. ""

Curious, outside of being on the US of A team, what specifically leads you to this type of broad conclusion, versus the various ideas among the many different forms of democratic governments in the world? Is it based on a detailed analysis, with a specific criteria? I ask this because patriotism often leads to a variety of poorly reasoned beliefs/thoughts?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 01:25 PM

Well, is this a mondegreen or what?

I thought the last line of Phil Och's Power and Glory was "glory shall rest on a song, on a song" - but it is apparently "glory shall rest on us all, on us all" - I have to say I like mine better!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 12:54 PM

I really don't see the distiction between nationalism, patriotism, and jingoism. I like the third word best, it seems to indicate the right amount of "and you aren't" that appears missing in the first two "we are great" attitudes. They are all divisive and harmful.

That said, I think the USA has the best idea for how to run a country. Too bad we're making such a horrible hash out of the actual execution of the great idea of E Pluribus Unum and Government Of The People. But that doensn't make *Americans* better than anybody else. Especially those making the horrible hash.

And I'm awfully glad to have been born with American citizenship.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:26 AM

Hey Joe!

Too bloody true mate. I have right of residency in your esteemed country and if I took it up I could apply to go through that little ceremony with the flag and ironically less IRS hassle than I get as an "alien with assets."

But as you quoted, I remain an Englishman. To be pedantic, I remain British, because the former legally distinct countries that make up The UK are one sovereign country. I insist on the distinction on the basis that some people claim to be patriotic yet don't wish to be British. I can't speak for their sanity mind....

Al! The Lingalonga between Skeggy and Ingoldmells. Now you're talking when it comes to chippies. Did you know I once got kicked out of The Coral Beach clubhouse for singing? Takes some doing to be barred from there but I managed it.

Mind you, I'd had a sniff of the barmaid's apron so calling me up to the karaoke wasn't a wise move on their part. Threatening me not to sing the parody version of Green Green Grass of Home was hopeful on their part. Quite a few no necks in the room that night.

When you're tired of Skeggy you are tired of life.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:51 PM

Did I mention you don't sleep much either

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:42 PM

Patriotism hurts a lot, you end up with scars and steel and stuff like that and a tad crazy

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 10:36 PM

Big Al Whittle, to my mind, loving each place you have lived and being in awe of their beauty is not patriotism. There are many, many beautiful things and places. Where I live now and have for the last 26+ years is the most gorgeous, geographically speaking, of any place I have seen - it is green and mountainous, it has the ocean at its front door, the air is sweet and clear, the water sweet and chill- but I recognize the beauty of deserts in which I have spent time and I have been in awe of beautiful old buildings and even the sweep of the roadways emanating from them.

Patriotism, I think, refers to political matters.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:11 PM

Every nation has its adherents who point with equal justification to their best bits. For example, a long sojourn in Brussels has taught me just how appalling UK chips are: they're a studied science in Belgium. Yet Al loves them. Perhaps both are right. Chips aren't fritjes, and they aren't frites, and frites aren't French Fries, let alone matchstick Freedom Fries.
There are parts of Breughel's Pajottenland which entirely rival Constable's Flatford, and...well, my point is that the list is long, and all it means is we're parochial and should find companionship with the others who find the same elsewhere. Which is rather an argument against this kind of Flanders and Swann Patriotism: to claim otherwise is simply a sign you've not looked elsewhere to find the same.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:05 PM

""the trouble with Schopenhauer, he never bought chips down chip alley in Skegness....
if he had, he would know what it is to fall in love unconditionally with a place.""


I suspect Schopenhauer watched his calorie count closely,   most likely only going to the frituur about twice a month-thus avoiding unecessary lard and duck fat intake.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:30 PM

Unclear on the distinction: Don't conflate "patriotism" with "nationalism". Being "proud" of whatever country you happen to have been born in, has got nothing to do with being a "patriot" - being a "patriot" and being "patriotic" has got a great deal more to do with what you as an individual can do to making your country a better place. "

I think being "proud" of something you didn't accomplish makes no sense. You can't be proud to be black, or gay, or American, if you were born that way. Mom, who survived WWII to emigrate and change nationalities, now she could be proud to be American, whether you call it Patriotism or Nationalism or Jingoism. I can't, I lucked into it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:01 PM

the trouble with Schopenhauer, he never bought chips down chip alley in Skegness....


if he had, he would know what it is to fall in love unconditionally with a place.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:58 PM

""I guess the definition of a lunatic is a man surrounded by them.""

Ezra Pound (1885-1972)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:57 PM

well i'm a patriot. i like the place. i love every place i ever lived.

i love the flat parts of lincolnshire where i was born. i loved Brum where i worked as a teacher. all the kids i taught in erdington, handsworth, perry barr. i grew to love all the places where i gigged from |Mancheter to lincoln. York to Northampton. they're all fucking beautiful. plus a lot of other places.

how could you not love your country?

where i live now, near Dorchester is incredibly beautiful.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:48 PM

Stilly River Sage: "No, not when you throw shit against the wall to see who salutes, Gust. Mixed metaphors are here simply to illustrate your brand of discourse. Slippery and inconclusive, always good for an argument.

Arkie: "Perhaps GfS can explain what is so terribly wrong with the availability of affordable health care."

Well, either you felt it was coming, or tried to avoid the obvious....

Check out THIS 'patriotism'!!

I gather 'so-called liberals' either hate patriotism....or think it's stupid.....along with the stupid people they intentionally deceive..

...is being arrogant, patriotic??

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:45 PM

"UK citizens enjoy equality of opportunity, enshrined in law."

But never in practice!......and the "law" has been proved to be an ass!
In the good old UK, you are as equal as your bank balance dictates, or your value to the economic system.
Todays scandal of bank rate rigging is a powerful example, a law for the rich and a law for the poor......the love of ones native land is beyond their reach, nurture it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:40 PM

""Patriotism, when it wants to make itself felt in the domain of learning, is a dirty fellow who should be thrown out of doors.""

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) German philosopher.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:29 PM

Perhaps GfS can explain what is so terribly wrong with the availability of affordable health care.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 04:49 PM

Dominic Behan's song The Patriot Game says it all. Conned by "patriotism" but still believing in an independent, republican Ireland, and opposed to John Bull's other island, English hegemony. The song shows one can believe in independence from Britain, actually die for it, but ignore the flag waving "patriotism" be it the Saltire or the Union flag of team GB.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 04:39 PM

No, not when you throw shit against the wall to see who salutes, Gust. Mixed metaphors are here simply to illustrate your brand of discourse. Slippery and inconclusive, always good for an argument.

Bill Summary & Status, 109th Congress (2005 - 2006) H.R.3199

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:48 PM

Joe Offer: "Oh, and the USA Patriot Act is one of the more oppressive pieces of legislation to come from the U.S. Congress in recent years..."


Yes!..and who was the author, or one of the principle authors of the 'Patriot Act'?....

...none other than Joe Biden, in the mid nineties!


Now, that being said, Was the passage and support of the ACA, aka Obamacare, passed and supported out of patriotism??

Simple question...simple answer...


GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:26 PM

Oh, and I'd like to post a little tribute to Musket's last post:

He is an Englishman!
For he himself has said it,
And it's greatly to his credit,
That he is an Englishman!
That he is an Englishman!
For he might have been a Roosian,
A French, or Turk, or Proosian,
Or perhaps Itali-an!
Or perhaps Itali-an!
But in spite of all temptations
To belong to other nations,
He remains an Englishman!
For in spite of all temptations, etc.

...the Devil made me do it...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:18 PM

Oh, and the USA Patriot Act is one of the more oppressive pieces of legislation to come from the U.S. Congress in recent years...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:16 PM

hello musket - i agree with you on that one! i always consider myself very patriotic, largely through some of the things you mention. i love the countryside, the wildlife, the taking the piss, the pubs, the radical tradition, the music, the literature, the eccentrics and all that. i have no time for the establishment or the monarchy - but can easily pretend they have no place in my country.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 02:06 PM

Patriot missile?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Patriot missile is designed, not to kill people at all, but to bring down missiles fired by people trying to kill us.

That's why most of Saddam Hussein's "SCUDS" didn't reach their targets, ian't it?

Sounds defensive from where I'm standing!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:58 PM

I suppose patriotism does come into being in a small way for us all. I am proud of being a UK citizen in that we started the whole international sign up to human rights, including the international courts that all but a few less advanced countries are signed up to.

UK citizens enjoy equality of opportunity, enshrined in law. You can go about your life without discrimination based on race, gender, disability or sexual orientation. If you are discriminated against or come up against published bigotry, you can call criminals to account.

Yes, I can be proud to be British. Despite everything, most of us are. When a part of The Uk had the choice of leaving the other month, they emphatically voted to remain British. The politicans wanting to leave wished to take the equality their party had put into legislation with them. The Scottish National Party, despite being rather incompetent and wooly headed, are at the forefront of equal rights and opportunity for all. The Scottish National Party will go down in history as the government that made gay marriage a fact in a part of The UK known for religious intolerance and low intelligence bigotry in some people, and they have every right to be proud of themselves, every last single member.

Oh aye, our past may have been one of discriminating against people, same as any other country, but apart from a few criminals and people with disturbed minds, we do have something to be patriotic about, despite our international reputation for self loathing...

That said, I am not a patriot. That has connotations of "holier than thou" about it, and just like in The States, tends to be put forward as an asset by the wrong people....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

""Lisa says that it's all right
When she meets me at midnight
Lisa says that she has her fun
And she'll do it with just about anyone""

Velvet Underground

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:17 PM

from Bob Beers "The Seasons of Peace"

"False are the bickering reigns
Of honor, of homeland, of war
That nourish the torrents of hate,
and flow through the valleys of death,

Cold are the patriot winds
That scatter the bittering weed,
Strong are the seedlings of truth
That grow in the seasons of peace."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:10 PM

"


         The Wild Geese
'Oh, tell me what was on yer road, ye roarin' norlan
   As ye cam' blawin' frae the land that's niver frae my mind?
My feet they trayvel England, but I'm deein' for the north—'
   'My man, I heard the siller tides rin up the Firth o' Forth.'
'Aye, Wind, I ken them well eneuch, and fine they fa' and rise,
   And fain I'd feel the creepin' mist on yonder shore that lies,
But tell me, ere ye passed them by, what saw ye on the way ?'
   'My man, I rocked the rovin' gulls that sail abune the Tay.'

'But saw ye naethin', leein' Wind, afore ye cam' to Fife?
   There's muckle lyin' yont the Tay that's mair to me nor life.'
'My man, I swept the Angus braes ye haena trod for years—'
   'O Wind, forgie a hameless loon that canna see for tears!—'

'And far abune the Angus straths I saw the wild geese flee,
   A lang, lang skein o' beatin' wings wi' their heids towards the sea,
And aye their cryin' voices trailed ahint them on the air—'
   'O Wind, hae maircy, haud yer whisht, for I daurna listen mair!' "

This fine poem by Violet Jacob gives a flavour of what Scotland, East or West, means to a native Scot.
I watch and listen to the wild geese travel over every spring and autumn....never fails to touch my heart.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 12:08 PM

Teribus got it right

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM

"Whether that makes me feel proud to be British is another thing entirely... "

Embrace it "team Musket".....you have so very little to feel proud about!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM

"Defensive missile"

Ha Ha Ha HA!!!!!!




Really, you ought to go on the stage.


Freak.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 10:07 AM

It seems that the conservatives in America have laid claim to the term "patriot". So now to be a patriot in their eyes translates to "You agree with me".

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:26 AM

"Patriot missile" - says it all, really." - MartinRyan

As the missile is purely a defensive weapon I would say that it would fit my distinction although in the case of this inanimate object it could be easily demonstrated that it makes the country a safer place - and safe is good isn't it?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:28 AM

To all those who supported the ACA, Obamacare...was this bill passed out of 'patriotism'???

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:52 AM

You are a citizen of The UK. All parishes are in The UK. You are British.

Whether that makes me feel proud to be British is another thing entirely...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:12 AM

Funny that its always a spokesman for "team Musket" who introduces the subject of AI in every thread. This particular thread does not concern AI.

My country is Scotland, born and bred, a Fergusson by my great grandmother and a MacDonald by my grandmother.
I grew up in a partially Gaelic speaking community....the Lords of the Isles are in my heart, I know my history and how the Union has almost exterminated the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English cultures.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:49 AM

I give it four more posts before Akhenaton manages to somehow talk about his favourite subject again, anal sex.

For someone to say love of one's country is a positive emotion seems to contradict his hatred of his country in every other thread about The United Kingdom. ZZZZZ

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:43 AM

Ruling, robing and grinding ones own people into the dust is one thing. Doing it to others to benefit your tribe, through historic and current forms of economic and political colonionsm is another.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:42 AM

"Patriot missile" - says it all, really.

Regards

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:36 AM

Teribus' distinction between "patriotism" and nationalism" is correct.

I would go further in saying that "jingoism" is the particularly bellicose form of nationalism.

As Samuel Johnson famously said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." (He was referring to insincere appeals to patriotism, not the actual sense of patriotism.)

That doesn't logically entail that all or even most patriots are scoundrels, but it may have helped tarnish the very concept of patriotism, especially since the 1960s.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM

Just as a matter of information, UKIP state that their opposition to unregulated immigration from the EU ("free movement of labour"),is not chiefly on economic grounds...though they DO dispute the latest set of economic figures, but on societal and infrastructure grounds.

"Team Musket" have a very bad habit of misrepresenting every view which threatens their pet myth.

Love of ones country is a positive emotion, blind acceptance of the system which rules it, robs it, and grinds its people into the dust, is stupid and negative....much more of a danger to society than a few flag wavers or gun toters.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM

Not certain - I don't believe in the label on the tin, it's what's inside which counts.
One of the biggest areas is competitive sports - from the Olympics downwards. We seek to be the best we can, as individuals, and sometimes as teams, and it can be useful support for that search for excellence. But at the same time, I'm not buying into the my country right or wrong side of it, the political paranoia. We are not islands alone, we are part of a world, and that tawdry currency has been debased further by the hard history of abuse from all sides. Let us be humans first.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:21 AM

It is telling that the word "Patriot" is used as a name for a type of missile......

Some people see patriotism as a duty. So we return to Mr Bernard Shaw...

"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."

Patriotism seems a bigger deal in The USA. The idea of making children stand and put their hand on their heart, swearing to the flag and all that.. I always thought overt rituals were a sign of lack of confidence in the first place.

The Tea Party angle is similar to our UKIP angle but with guns rather than pints of beer. Make Britain great! Stop immigration from being a drain! the government, running scared of the closet racists calling themselves UKIP are getting that way themselves, even to the point of trying to hide a report last week showing that immigration has had a net contribution to the economy rather than a drain on benefits.

I mention this because the latest idea by raving bigots is to appeal to patriotism and christianity. (Note the large Muslim, Hindu, Sikh etc population of The UK, let alone the fact that less than 1% of the population go to church....)

Interesting times, especially as big business has shown that the world is a smaller place now and patriotism is becoming a more parochial irrelevance all the time. Presumably hence the backlash?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:01 AM

Teribus says: Don't conflate "patriotism" with "nationalism."

Where do the "Tea Party Patriots" fit into that equation? I'm surrounded by 'em in this county.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 02:48 AM

In Juneau's local paper several commenters disagreed on America's "exceptionalism". I and at least one other person contended that even though we love our country just as most people love the place where they were born, the very concept exceptionalism is naive and disingenuous, that this country, like most other countries, has done good things but equally bad things to its people and to the world, things in the past and the present that will impact the future for all. I said that the thing I am proud of America for is the willingness many of its people have to acknowledge its shortcomings and to seek to improve it. I love the humility of this line in 'America, the Beautiful': God mend thine every flaw and crown thy good with brotherhood and liberty in law.

One person took great umbrage at our position and has since in other threads claimed that we are people who hate our country, that "real" patriots would never think such a thing.

Yep. I'm afraid of 'real patriots'.