BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed

Subject: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 11:59 AM

Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo calls for ban on diesel cars by 2020 to reduce air pollution. Are diesel cars big polluters, versus gasoline vehicles?



Call for diesel car ban from the French capital 

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 01:00 PM

Yes, particlarly if not properly maintained.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 01:09 PM

There have been restrictions on older diesel vehicles in the London Low Emissions Zone (inside the M25) for nearly two years, because of the harmful emissions.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 01:21 PM

diesels since 2005 ish have had particulate filters fitted, making them very clean. Add the economy, ie, less fuel burning and they are exceedingly clean.

I pay no road fund tax and on an average tank get 70mpg. Not bad considering it includes lots of single lane carriageway, having to overtake etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:53 AM

The issue here may be that diesel is the leading competitor to hybrid as far as fuel cost, and it's cheaper than hybrid as far as initial investment. So market forces alone might favor diesels instead of hybrids. But hybrids are much better than gas or diesel on emissions, so a city might want to give a nudge in that direction. New York city is taking a more direct approach, requiring all taxis to be hybrid after a certain date.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:22 PM

Some friends of mine have hybrid vehicles....they are a nightmare on reliability, lots of breakdowns, batteries need replacing every two or three years, costing thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 02:49 PM

Even the Prius? Consumer Reports has always given the Prius its highest rating for reliability. And they recently did a case study of a 10-year old Prius with the original battery, which found that it still gave almost the same fuel economy as when it was new. There are a lot of Prius taxis in NY now.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 02:57 PM

Victoria British Columbia, Canada are totally hybrid taxis-and most, if not all are Prius.

I was always concerned with the long term life of the batteries-because of replacement cost, but have little knowledge of how they actually last.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 05:08 PM

With lead-acid batteries I always used to buy a mid-price battery and replace it after 3 years. Someone once told me that none of them are reliable more than 3 years no matter how much they cost.

But the clunker I drive now came with a 10-year-old battery, and now, a year later, it's still good as new after 11 years of bitterly cold winters and blistering summer heat. So obviously there are some batteries that are better than others.

Maybe it's the same with the lithium ion batteries in hybrids. Maybe Toyota gives you a good one and some other manufacturers don't.

I've been watching the Prius ever since it first came out, because I figured eventually there'll be ones old enough for me to buy. Every one of them has gotten top ratings for reliability and fuel economy from Consumer Reports.

Obviously the battery is a big issue as they get older. Even a good battery is going to need replacement eventually, so anyone buying an old hybrid is likely to have a major expense before long, equivalent to replacing an engine or transmission.

But I did a little research online and found there are companies that will furnish and install a reconditioned battery in a Prius for $800, with a one-year warranty. And I read about taxi companies driving the Prius for 300,000 miles with the original battery, and then buying a recon battery and driving them another 100,000.

So I'm not too worried about buying an old Prius, and I might do that soon. Now that gas prices are low they're probably pretty cheap.

I don't know of any other hybrid that's worth considering at all. Even the Honda, which is essentially a clone of the Prius, is rated poorly by Consumer Reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 11:29 PM

My son bought a used Prius more than 5 years ago and has put a lot of miles on it. He has a long commute to work. So far the battery has not needed replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Musket
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 02:48 AM

I suppose there are two issues here.

Carbon footprint

Diminishing fossil fuels.

Battery only and hybrid cars of today are the prototypes for tomorrow's generation. I have looked at hybrids for my next car, although I doubt I shall. Just not quite there yet. The BMW diesels tick many boxes for me, including being very clean.

If you want low carbon footprint then consider the huge carbon footprint of the batteries. The Prius batteries have had their components shipped around the world including USA, one of the Scandinavian countries and Japan before seeing a car and the factory emissions making the things is incredibly high if an article in New Scientist is accurate.

If the principle is diminishing fossil fuels then diesel engines are the most appropriate for long distance, small petrol for city use.

The infrastructure we have for refining oil into fuels would need to be reciprocated in size and cost in order to commercially produce hydrogen in sufficient quantities but hydrogen engines, already on sale in Los Angeles (where the pumps are!) by Honda have to be the way forward.

One thing of note. Petrol engines made by and for areas of the world where fuel is expensive are far more economical and clean. The USA doesn't do too good in that respect and whilst Ford Europe are getting 180BHP out of a 1 litre engine, Ford USA say the low quality of the petrol in The States, because that's all prices can stand, preclude using such engines.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 04:24 AM

If you want low carbon footprint then consider the huge carbon footprint of the batteries

And the car as a whole. A typical car will use the same amount of energy in manufacture and delivery as it will during its life on the road.

There is no such thing as a sustainable car and never will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 06:44 AM

A typical car will use the same amount of energy in manufacture and delivery as it will during its life on the road

That sounds extremely unikely, Jack.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 06:53 AM

Diesel vs Hybrids: The Costs and Benefits of Both -from Union of Concerned Scientists, 2013.

Considerations 

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 06:58 AM

Why????

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 07:32 AM

No question that the design of cars so as to be thrown away after 10 or 15 years of use has to go away. The same goes for the building of cars with 5 liter engines.

And I agree about hydrogen fuel cells being the long-term goal. If we'd had any sense we'd have had them on the road 20 years ago.

I wonder why there aren't hybrids that have all-electric drive train and a small gas or diesel generator instead of the giant battery that makes all-electric cars so expensive. Couldn't the generator be removed sometime in the future and replaced with a fuel cell?

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 08:03 AM

Yes, but what about the emissions from the massive diesels used in ships , some of which are many years old ?? They are much worse offenders , emitting long trails of dark smoke for MILES behind them. I went on two this year ; MV Discovery and MV Funchal . Neither are in the first flush of youth, and Funchal struggled to get to her destination due to strong winds and adverse currents ; the noise aft from her funnel exhausts was APPALLING and people got "smuts" in their eyes.However, I did see some really modern cruise ships in various ports,and they seemed to have virtually no emissions at all ! Progress ??
As to cars ; we have a 1.6 litre Peugeot diesel estate , which gives VERY good mileage per gallon and we'd hate to lose it !!

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 08:48 AM

Jeez, bubblyrat

We KNOW that you like boats. I mean, you hardly ever mention them...

Do you think that, in future, you might not bring them in to a thread about an entirely different form of transport?

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw another 1.6 diesel man
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 08:55 AM

We have an unlimited source of energy, the sun. We have an unlimited source of hydrogen, water. It never ceases to amaze me that humanity has failed to harness solar energy big-time to split water. Just think: burn hydrogen and all you get is your water back again. Naturally, not a solution that Big Oil would think much of.

Oops, seem to have just woken up from another utopian dream...

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 09:10 AM

Since when has the sun's energy been 'unlimited'? Since when is the amount of hydrogen in the universe 'unlimited'?

A poor choice of word, Mr Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 09:10 AM

Technically energy sources are mostly solar based, collected through biological and hydro systems.

That being considered, there seems to be big opportunities through direct solar power. Locally, what I see is the cost of solar panels seem to be quite high, versus other power sources.That is a big impediment.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 09:17 AM

We could bust water into hydrogen for a billion years and the sun's energy input to the planet would not be depleted one jot in consequence. We could bust water Into hydrogen (then burn the hydrogen) for a billion years and the planet would show no sign of drying up in consequence. For the purpose I referred to, in practical terms there is an unlimited supply of both solar energy and water. I don't mind wasting time typing this as long as you don't mind being accused of acting thick.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 09:59 AM

A typical car will use the same amount of energy in manufacture and delivery as it will during its life on the road.
That sounds extremely unlikely

I forget who did the audit, but I read that about twenty years ago.

The balance now will have tipped even further: cars nowadays tend to a bit heavier and are made of far more energy-intensive materials, while their fuel efficiency has improved. Every gram of silicon in a car's electronics takes as much energy to turn into chips as several pounds of steel takes to refine from ore (and also takes vast quantities of water). Plastics, nonferrous alloys and laminated window glass are all more resource-intensive than steel. And the materials cars are made of now travel far further than they did a generation ago. Batteries are certainly wasteful to make, but at least part of the resource cost can be recovered by recycling - the fibreglass and carbon-fibre composites used in the structure of any car, however powered, are simply toxic garbage when the car wears out.

The real catastrophe of the private car is its effect on human geography. In all advanced societies, resources in building construction are thrown into insanely short-term geographic arrangements that assume the private car will be available forever. The waste involved in the location of buildings and the construction of roads that will all be crumbling rubble in a century is unprecedented in human history.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 10:12 AM

One thing that puzzlesime is why vehicle tires are getting larger? While many vechicles seem to be trending smaller and lighter (save the SUV) tire sizes seem to be getting larger. R13s, R14s and R15s have seemed to be replaced by R16, R17 and higher. It does not seem to be related to drive traction?

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 10:21 AM

Agreed, Jack. We build as if we've given up hope that there will be human life on the planet 50 years hence.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Musket
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 11:52 AM

There are many studies saying just that.

However, and bearing in mind it's got to be 15 years since I cancelled my IMechE subscription to periodicals, the studies are working with huge variables;

Steel and other metals production carbon footprint varies. Compare Germany to China for instance.

Factories and their efficiency / carbon footprint variability.

Fuel / consumables efficiency of the vehicle.

Life span of original components.

I recall one paper looking at the Old Trabant factory, bearing in mind they didn't actually use much fuel and it was estimated that over 90% of the carbon footprint was before you fired it up for the first time. I am only guessing here but my BMW, made in Bavaria with rather strict ecology laws, it had to be considerably less, especially given the estimated lifespan.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:56 AM

Gosh..Ya' think they are avoiding using elector-magnetism???...No 'footprint'..no pollution...and less money to oil companies to pay off their pet politicians.....Well, there goes the phony environmental Congressmen and Senators.......They spout off one thing to you....then hide the pay-offs.....My, don't they sound so noble??!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Musket
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 03:47 AM

There goes the neighbourhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 07:13 AM

I have driven Volkswagen diesels since 1983. The Ontario emissions-control program Drive Clean has always given my VW cars the top rating, even when I was driving a 17-year-old 1986 Golf. Of course, I'm a stingy person, so I'm a bit OCD about maintenance -- the only way to be with a diesel. I do so love passing fuel stations ...

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:39 PM

Jack Campion's point is a good one. Some people point to the fact a Prius as needing components that are more energy intensive to produce than most cars and so on environmental terms it is worse than a typical car to manufacture.

Which is why I bought one that was three years old about 18 months ago. Any excess in production had been incurred so it made sense to maximise it's value. Also Toyota like many car companies have a scheme where people by new and after three years they have to pay off the balance or trade it in against a new one, so there is a food supply of three year old models.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:43 PM

Ah, the wonders of autocorrect. Good, not food. The other gibberish is decipherable

Subject: RE: BS: Ban on diesel cars proposed
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 06:03 PM

An affordable 3-year-old Prius! Must be nice. Here in the US, if you can find one, they'll want a thousand or so below the price of a new one. Used car prices generally are ridiculous right now.