BS: Politics and Depression

Subject: Politics and Depression
From: Elmore
Date: 12 Mar 15 - 08:53 PM

Okay, I'm a liberal Democrat. I've followed politics closely for decades. April 2 will be my 74th birthday. In the (anti) social media people are ridiculing one another like kids in a school yard. Worst of all, politicians, voters, non-voters, and a host of ill-informed sheep take every opportunity to insult the President, his family, and his ancestors. I've never seen anything like it. Gives me the blues. Any Hope?

Subject: RE: Politics and Depression
From: Elmore
Date: 12 Mar 15 - 09:22 PM

Sorry. Should've posted this in the b.s. section.

Subject: RE: Politics and Depression
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 15 - 09:25 PM

I've decided there are a lot more nasty people in the world than I ever thought. It is almost unbelievable. The antidote? I have no idea.

Subject: RE: Politics and Depression
From: Elmore
Date: 12 Mar 15 - 10:22 PM

Re-read my post. I guess there are worse things in the world than respect for one's fellow man. Still, it might be in the top 10.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Musket
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 03:35 AM

I don't think there are any more nasty people around, in fact I see less prejudice and bigotry as time passes.

But I am aware that communications and media has transformed causes and opinion making in a big big way. So nasty people getting the oxygen of publicity? More oxygen and more publicity. Oh and in this soundbite age, quicker delivery from mouth to unsuspecting public.

The influence of malign intent is deeper but I remain convinced that people are seeing through it more at the same time. Over here in The UK, it will be once again impossible for a party to form a majority government at this year's election because people are less inclined to be taken in by empty promises and the art of slagging off the other lot is increasingly back firing.

Interesting times...

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 07:49 AM

Manners are different on the internet, just as they are on the tar-and-concrete superhighway.

People who are normally polite and considerate turn into violent psychopaths behind the wheel of a car moving at 70 miles per hour. At least that's true in the East coast of the US; though apparently not, or at least less so, in some places I've been, such as Seattle.

Similarly, people will say things online that they would never say in person, if only because they don't want to risk being punched, stabbed, or shot in response. I don't know if this case has regional variations.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:24 AM

Over here in The UK, it will be once again impossible for a party to form a majority government at this year's election because people are less inclined to be taken in by empty promises ... Interesting times...

Quite so, as far as interesting times is concerned. I'm not *quite* so sure about the empty promises bit: I'm certain people have always been suspicious of that. I think what has happened is that while we have been a two and a bit party system for a long time, with tribal loyalty a big player, the big three from last time have all grown so similar and are held in such low regard that we are now entering a seven-or-so party system, and no-one has any idea how that will play out. In particular, the 'vote-for-who-you-dislike-least' group has probably almost disappeared, changing into a vote for one of the other parties.

My guess? There is a fair chance that no two parties will be big enough to form a majority [unless we had a Lab-Cons pact], and that it will take three or more to do it. However, to treat my guess with the contempt it deserves, I had expected there to be a substantial swing to LibDem last time, whereas it was near enough unchanged from the previous election.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:32 AM

I don't get it. What is there about politics that could possibly make anyone depressed?

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:52 AM

Oddly enough, we seem to have got to close where the AV voting system would have taken us according to its detractors, but with just its problems not its advantages.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 09:15 AM

If you were to print a thousand copies of a screed and spend the day passing them out on street corners, 995 of them would wind up in waste bins unread. If you were to publish that same screed on a blog, a thousand people would read it and 995 of them would agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 09:18 AM

The AV voting system would likely fail in North America. First, I doubt there is even five percent of the population that digs deep enough to know the candidates. Second, it would require computers to do the tabulations, and there--there be dragons. Third, we need parties that aren't foisting shit on the electorate.

I've reached the conclusion that the only fair way to decide on a ruler is by a duel to the death with axes between the contenders only, no proxies. It would be a nice followup to the law and economic degrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 09:51 AM

There is more than one country in "North America", and they have quite different systems of government. It is confusing to lump all of these countries together as North America as if they were all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 09:59 AM

In the U.S, the Reublican cuts to education funding of the last 30 years are bearing fruit. We've now raised up several generations of uneducated, ignorant idiots.

Suggest y'all read: Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free by Charles P. Pierce.

Then too, there's the "Citizens United" decision......

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 10:07 AM

At present I see little difference between the US and Canada. Mexico has been a drug deal gone bad for decades. Electorates are not as aware as they used to be, or at least it doesn't seem so.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 10:15 AM

Canada has a Parliamentary system which differs greatly from the two party system in the us.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and ian and well aware Depression
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 10:21 AM

I'm Canadian and well aware of what constitutes our government. However, recent challenges to both our Charter and Constitution indicate that there is at present a one-party system in control of things, the Libs, NDs and Greens notwithstanding. YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 12:24 PM

I was simply trying to point out that A Parliamentary system differs greatly from the system currently used in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 12:28 PM

That's true :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 01:43 PM

Politicians get negative and nasty with each other because that's what gets votes. Carefully explaining economic policy does not. Most people are extremely ignorant about politics, yet they possess all the voting power, and politicians know it. Simplistic sloganising gets votes, especially if it contains criticism of foreigners who take our jobs and houses or of people unable to work through ill-health living the benefit lifestyle. Stuff like that goes down amazingly well. Patient exposition of what the country really needs in order to move forward is useless. But political education in schools is a non-starter. There would be a terrible fault line in an education system that refuses to allow children to critically question the existence of God yet which persuades them to take nothing that politicians say without a healthy dose of scepticism. It just doesn't happen. Huge numbers of people vote for parties on bogus single issues because they are ignorant. Ban the scroungers. Ban abortion. Send the foreigners home (especially if they're a funny colour). Bring back hanging. We'll cut your taxes. Ban strikes and unions. Let's bomb the Argies. Rule Britannia!

You're an educated person, right? So watch Nigel Farage on telly for a couple of minutes then explain to me why any sane, balanced person would vote for his party.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 04:00 PM

Ireland's newest political party Renua Ireland was launched today. One of its TDs , Terence Flanagan, had a "mental blank" when being questioned on air about the party's policies earlier this evening. Commentators are describing it as "the worst interview ever".

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/renua-ireland-s-terence-flanagan-has-mental-blank-on-radio-1.2139165

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 04:39 PM

Commentators are describing it as "the worst interview ever".

Really? Guess those commentators have never watched Fux "News"[sic].

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 04:48 PM

Do you mean Fux "News" [sick], Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 05:08 PM

An important New York Times/CBS News survey finds that six years after the terror attacks of 9/11, "33 percent of all Americans, including 40 percent of Republicans and 27 percent of Democrats, say Saddam Hussein was personally involved" [PR Watch]

Sorry if that looks like a bleed from another thread, but it illustrates perfectly what I was saying about ignorance of politics. Those 33% are still qualified to vote in elections for the most powerful person on the bloody planet. Wow.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Elmore
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 05:35 PM

My wife watches Faux News occasionally, just to keep up with the manure they are spreading. My wife is much stronger than I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 05:47 PM

Celexa, Prozac, all sorts of things can help depression.

Politics, on the other hand, doesn't do anything but make the depression worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 06:12 PM

But someone has to run our countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:04 PM

Politics, on the other hand, doesn't do anything but make the depression worse.

The current STATE of politics, perhaps, but not politics itself, unless one wants to do without government.

On the other hand, someone once said that people by & large get the government they deserve. Considering the 33% referenced above, this should not come as a surprise. Especially if the other 66% do nothing & let them get away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Joe_F
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:27 PM

I dare say every president has a consoling pocket anthology of insults that have been hurled at sitting presidents over the years -- especially at the ones who were getting things done.

It also seems to me that noisy malice is often a sign of demoralization and the important changes in public opinion may be happening more quietly and deserve more attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 11:15 PM

I certainly hope you're right about that, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 12:52 AM

LAst week an interviewer wandered around a U of T campus in AUstin, Texas asking certain historical questions of the students. One out of ten knew who won the Civil War, and another one of ten knew who the Veep was. The rest had no clue, They couldn't say who it was America gained her independence from. But every one of them knew who Brad Pitt was married to and what regular TV show she was on.

We have therefore a two-edged sort. Media bloat is making people stupid about reality. And high-speed wide-spread technology is making it easier and faster for stupid rearms to be fired off. Before the Internet it was considered wise to keep your mouth shut rather than make yourself look bad by saying stupid things. Now, the opposite seems to be the general practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 03:42 AM

I agree 100% Amos.....the media determines what sort of country we live in. Which Party is actually incumbent has little real meaning, the same ends are always pursued.....the survival of the capitalist system.

To talk about the obvious truths concerning capitalism is like talking about death, no one wants to here it.
Today all the people care about is self. If they are told that to survive in a genuinely fair society, or living standards must fall, we must eradicate wasteful practices, everyone must contribute and pay a part of our earnings towards the upkeep of public services.....they presume you are a madman.

They have been well schooled in "doublethink"

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Musket
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 03:51 AM

Yeah. If only everybody treated everyone else as equals and respected their situation, and didn't prejudge based on irrational hatred of differences, the world would be a better place.

I'd possibly miss irony though.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Cynical
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 11:58 AM

Akenaton: Good point about doublethink. The constant barrage of ridiculous lies is tolerated because people think "they're not lying to us, they're lying for us." So we should believe them.

I remember when the first George Bush invaded Kuwait and kept saying adamantly, "This is not about oil!" Everyone knew he was lying, but most people thought he meant, "Yes, of course, it's about oil, and keeping the price of gasoline down so we can keep driving our gas guzzlers to Disney World, but we don't want to say that out loud because it would make us look bad to the rest of the world and would make us feel guilty if we admitted it to ourselves."

Later, after he was out of office, he said on a Sunday morning talking-head show, "If I had waited for the Congress to act, Saddam would be in Riyadh and oil would be thirty dollars a barrel." That was a lie, too, but a lot of people thought it was true, that a super-rich guy like Bush, who makes himself richer off the profits from oil sales, acted to keep the price of oil down.

And I remember when a Ronald Reagan supporter confided in me during the election, to try to convince me to vote for him. He said that you have to read between the lines, that Reagan says the outrageous things he does so that stupid people will vote for him. "He means that there are too many people that are too well off, so the system can't function. And he's going to fix that; but guys like you and me will be o.k. We'll still be doing fine." Another Reagan supporter at about the same time, apparently one of the "stupid people" that the first guy was referring to, assured me that what Reagan really means is that he's going to "give it" to the African-Americans (except that he used a different term for the latter).

Every time I've listened to a US politician speak since then, I've paid attention to how his supporters could interpret his lies to mean that he's looking out for them but trying to put one over on the stupid people of the other party or in other countries. It's not just Reagan; it's almost everyone in US politics.

I often wonder whether that's true in other countries. Lately I've been watching Putin speak on YouTube. He sits at a table with a bunch of journalists (including a table full of journalists from Time magazine in one case) and answers their questions for a long time, but he looks and sounds like a real person, not a talking doll. And, as far as I can tell, he's telling the truth the whole time. Maybe it's just that I don't know that culture. But it's really pleasant to watch, and in any case it could explain why he still has approval ratings in the 80's after 15 years in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 12:58 PM

Well said guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 06:11 PM

Oh, I'm certain that Putin wouldn't lie to his people or to us. A right good guy, he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 06:37 PM

No one can say Putin tells lies.



Not if he wants to live to see his kids graduate.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 06:58 PM

Who controls politics, and most politicians?
Simple, follow the money.

As to politics and the traditional media - it's mostly a symbiotic relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 04:23 AM

The most depressing thing about politics is the way it divides people into "left" and "right" without actually addressing what is good for the country or the people who live in it.

For example if you have a faith in god, you are automatically tarred as a "right wing nutter"

If you challenge the system in any way, for example, why the bosses of the failed financial services sector are not in prison, you are deemed a "mad left wing radical."

Steve posts a typical example above....."Huge numbers of people vote for parties on bogus single issues because they are ignorant. Ban the scroungers. Ban abortion. Send the foreigners home (especially if they're a funny colour). Bring back hanging. We'll cut your taxes. Ban strikes and unions. Let's bomb the Argies. Rule Britannia!

You're an educated person, right? So watch Nigel Farage on telly for a couple of minutes then explain to me why any sane, balanced person would vote for his party. ...."

In reality Mr Farage's Party stand for removing the UK from the EEU. Under present EU regulations, unrestricted movement of labour across all member countries is mandatory and with the acceptance of many Eastern European countries (where wage rates and living standards are very low) into the EU, there is naturally a huge flood of mainly unskilled migrants; this puts great strain on the UK infrastructure, housing, health provision, social services and most importantly the necessity of industry to pay decent wages and provide adequate training for a whole generation of young people.
I spoke to a very nice young Polish chap lately who has been working in the UK for the last few years, he receives under the minimum wage, but as his living expenses are shared with two other workers from abroad, he told me that he had sent home enough to build a house for him , his wife, and their two children in Poland.
He said to me that he was amazed that the jobs had not been taken by UK young people, what he did not know was that the jobs had not even been advertised in the UK, but were given out through an agency specialising in immigrant workers.
I also explained that a young person in the UK with a wife and two children living on the minimum wage, had not a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting a home of their own. The playing field is tilted hugely in favour of the system and against the interests of our own young people.
Mr Farage, when he first mooted the idea of putting a cap on immigration was demonised, called all sorts on names commonly used by a handful of people here, and roundly condemned by all major UK Parties as a "racist".   Amazingly, all UK parties now agree with Mr Farage that there should be a cap on immigration, but he is still viewed by most of the left as a "racist", because he has brought into question one of their great "shibboleths"
Very few of the EU immigrants are "black" or "brown", the huge majority are "white"

Personally, I am a socialist and disagree with a lot of what UKIP say regarding the economy and other political matters, but that does not stop me from recognising that one of their policies, the main plank of the Party is obviously correct and in the interests of future generations of UK young people.....it is simply being opposed for ideological reasons, which have no reasonable validity.

Time we started looking beyond the political ideology...it's all lies; and start thinking on how we move forward into a better future where we can see some REAL equality through the clouds of smoke.

Mr Farage says that Britain is now "colour blind" and I agree with that. Multiculturalism on the other hand, (different cultures living separately, without integration, in one country, is another matter altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 04:31 AM

Sorry about the long post, but I thought the issue worth addressing. the last sentence should have been added to the paragraph concerning immigration....don't know how that happened....Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Musket
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 04:36 AM

Real equality eh?

Fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 05:12 AM

Real equality in the context of this thread, would involve the playing field being adjusted to something resembling a level surface for millions of young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 05:30 AM

It doesn't take much to realise that taking £60,000,000 off the top earners and giving £1 each to the entire population isn't going to help anyone very much. So when I think of real equality/inequality I think of people like a senior government official I met a week or so ago who is claiming housing expenses of around half a day of a minimum wages income while actually staying with a relative "because the rules say he can". And his main role is ensuring low paid people don't make unauthorised claims.

One rule for the rich springs to mind...

Though be honest I am convinced he knows it is not authorised because I doubt very much he would put "... while staying with relatives" on the expense form, and he should have no qualms about that if he genuinely believed it was ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 06:18 AM

"Colour blind" is a complete copout. It's hardly surprising that a throwback like Farage continues to use a thoroughly discredited phrase that most of us stopped embracing decades ago. He's got you fooled, hasn't he? His party is a ragbag of frustrated ex-Tories and Britain-for-the-British backwoodsmen (with apologies to Backwoodsman) and they depend entirely for their support on a simplistic and populist keep-out-the-foreigners platform. You're no socialist, are you. Real socialists have a healthy dash of internationalism in their veins. You are just a xenophobe.

Yes, some of those young Polish chaps CAN be very nice. Cor, fancy that...

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 06:48 AM

Farage must think we are all daft. Of course there is still a problem with discrimination in the UK. Did anyone see the TV prog "The Ukippers" the other week. Fly on the wall stuff was very revealing! The local party big wigs were trying to convince their people not to say anything controversial. It was very much "don't let anything slip which can be used against us" rather than "look we don't want racists etc in our party so if you are that way inclined there is no place for you". Then one candidate openly speaking to a party worker said "I have a real problem with anyone with negros.I don't know why?...I just do.....even if it is just someone with negro looking features" The party worker kind of half challenged her and phoned her superiors once she'd left and the candidate was immediately expelled. It does make you wonder though would she have been expelled had the camera not been there? Even giving them the benefit of the doubt after that happening how could Farage claim several weeks later that there is no colour problem and all discrimination laws should be abolished"

The thing that really got me though was the expelled candidate's attitude afterwards. She was just in denial. She claimed so have been expelled because she had used the word 'negro' and that it was political correctness gone mad! "People use much worse terms all the time" she said! She must have no conception that most people feel it totally unacceptable that you should dislike someone solely because they are of a different race.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 06:50 AM

"""I have a real problem with anyone with negros.I don't know why?.""

Sorry that should have been she said "I have a real problem with negros"

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Musket
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 07:46 AM

Dunno. Values are relative. someone on this thread keeps calling for equality whilst saying gay people are perverts who spread disease.

The UKIP woman displays the same ignorance and bigotry towards people who look different. The world is full of those who encourage people to look down on others. Normally, they are the sort who look for someone to blame for their own failures or lack of humanity.

Living in Scotland, I suppose we are lucky because whilst I don't support the independence aims of SNP, Sturgeon makes it clear that there is no place in Scottish society for homophobia to be embraced. Her embracing of diversity is a joy to behold. I could certainly support their "prosperity begins with equality" stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Cynical
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 08:31 AM

"It doesn't take much to realise that taking £60,000,000 off the top earners and giving £1 each to the entire population isn't going to help anyone very much."

It takes a little more to realize that it wouldn't hurt anyone very much either, even if you took 60,000,000 from each of the top looters (in this context the use of the word "earn" is an absurd piece of subliminal propaganda). The loss of that amount would only be noticed by their accountants. You'd have to take billions from each of them to have any effect at all.

The ratio between someone who has billions in assets, and tens or hundreds of millions in income from it, to someone who works and has an income of tens of thousands can't possibly bear any resemblance to the ratio in what they contribute to the community. That level of wealth can only come from exploiting a corrupt system, "because the rules say he can."

But it's not necessary to divy it up into however many tens of thousands could thus be given to each poor person per each billionaire thus deprived. The good would come from eliminating a class of people whose wealth places them outside the moral community, with no concerns other than, as Ayn Rand pointed out so romantically, their whores and their "whip over the world."

Akenaton: Your long post is exactly right. As Pound said, the technique of infamy is to create two lies and then get people fighting over which one is true. The dividing points that incense the masses are all artificially created in order to divide and conquer. That's a military tactic, which is just as valid in class warfare as in any other. We usually don't hear about that ongoing class war unless someone suggests policies that could be interpreted as mounting a defense; until then it's really just one-sided massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 09:32 AM

Allan, I'm a bit disappointed that you see any importance in the statement made by the daft UKIP woman.

"I have a real problem with negro features"

I have heard similar from people who voted Labour all their lives, in the past
Of course it is wrong, but all Partys have their daft people, they are a fact of life.....there is no valid reason why anyone should feel a problem with the appearance of black people other than personal dislike......and who can do anything about that, till the remarks have been made.
Mr Farage immediately removed the lady's Party membership.

All Party's have scandals of all kinds , remember Liberal Jeremy Thorp who allegedly tried to bump off his homosexual lover...the paedophile scandal in the highest echelons of the Tory party which was allegedly covered up....the expenses scandal amongst Labour MP's and Lords?

The point does not concern black immigrants from ex colonial countries, their numbers are already capped by law.
Highlighting these cases are simply a way of demonising a whole movement for the stupidity of a few.

Time to face the fact that as long as a capitalist economic system is in operation there will be no meaningful equality, as capitalism and equality are deadly enemies.....Capitalism demands aspiration and promotion of self over society.....Mrs Thatcher famously and rightly said that under capitalism there is "no such thing as society"

In that context, do you really think it is so important that one silly old woman just doesn't like the look of black people?

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 10:16 AM

One silly old woman? This country is heaving with people who don't like the look of black people. You have so many prejudices yourself that they seem to be making it difficult for you to detect another one even when it jumps up and bites your bum. And I won't even dwell on the sexist overtones of "silly old woman".

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 10:29 AM

Well it could just as easily have been a silly old man, or a silly middle aged man. In this instance it was a silly old woman, and I believe in calling a spade a spade.