BS: Politics and Depression

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Musket
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 03:55 PM

Always said a certain someone has an arse fixation, judging by his unfortunate fascination with them in most of his posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 02:15 PM

Hi Dmg, Yes, Mr Galloway was referring to the two main political parties, but I thought it was also apt to repeat his observation in this context.

I don't think Mr Galloway was joking.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 01:47 PM

Galloway say that about Fry and Clarkson? I know he did about The Labour and Conservative parties. It rather spoils a joke of you over-use it, but perhaps you are giving a misleading impression that he uses it more widely than I know

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 05:00 AM

Sorry wrong thread.

BTW    Fry would be "creepy" no matter what his sexual preferences were. :0(.....in the same manner as Clarkson is creepy.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Musket
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 04:14 AM

Creepy?

This gets better. Keep your son locked up when he's around eh?

Sick puppy

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 03:57 AM

Silly boy, I was ridiculed for even mentioning piss taker Clarkson and creepy Fry in the same post.

It's clear that as Mr Galloway famously said. "They're two cheeks of the one arse" :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 02:56 AM

Well, at least I'm consistent...and call it before it's so obvious..... sometimes before it happens, too....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Musket
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 02:45 AM

I suppose we can accept that as your mitigating circumstance Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Throckmorton P. Gildersleeve
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 01:41 AM

Obviously the voice of long experience....

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Throckmorton P. Gildersleeve
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 01:34 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 12:14 AM

#: "Something wrong with the bottles over there?"

Only when you can't find them in your brown bag...only to find that you can't reach the bag either...it rolled too far under the dumpster, and having to crawl across the ally, on your hands and knees, makes one too dizzy!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 12:16 PM

:0)....nice one #

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 10:09 AM

I thought only the French used glasses for wine. Something wrong with the bottles over there?

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Musket
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 08:36 AM

Your glasses are too small. I get four

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 08:12 AM

As much as anything it is that arguments are made that don't bear the slightest scrutiny. For example yesterday a spokesmen said the government departments could cope with cuts at the same rate because they had coped so far. Now, they may be able to cope but that they have before is no indication at all, any more than the fact you've poured six glasses of wine from a bottle guarantees you can pour another.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 10:34 PM

Politics and Depression ...like 'Hope and No Change'??

Same ol' shit, different flies!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 12:55 PM

..and good night to you, too...get plenty of rest, you might need to think, tomorrow.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 09:39 AM

Say g'night, Geist.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 05:02 AM

Some Blow in Scotland: "There are more Heterosexual people than gay people living with HIV, and of those, the majority are black people of African origin."

Next thing you'll be saying, is that it's all genetic.....

Oh, I thought you meant the virus....


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 04:25 AM

But would you round them up for HIV screening on account of being black? After all, being of African descent is, according to the statistics you love to quote, a problem "we" need to deal with. There are more Heterosexual people than gay people living with HIV, and of those, the majority are black people of African origin.

Does your plans for HIV (round up those deemed at risk and carry out invasive medical testing by force if necessary) extend to those most at risk?

Isn't that a teeny bit racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 04:15 AM

Allan, the original point I was making concerned unregulated immigration from the EU, which all Parties now agree is wrong.

Someone else tried to divert the discussion on to colour prejudice by questioning my use of the phrase "call a spade a spade".
This terminology is widely used round here and has nothing at all to do with colour.
"Britain is colour blind" I think that is clear, colour prejudice is clearly seen to be wrong, there are many more coloured faces in society, it is no longer unusual to see a coloured person and employers look for the best and cheapest applicant rather than discriminate on colour.....this is a fact of economics.
The colour of a persons skin has no bearing on how they behave, do their job, or on wider society.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 04:05 AM

You may well ask him if we are blind in other categories of equality?

I find it odd that someone can come out in support of UKIP, see me and my husband as second-class citizens and oppose women getting high promotion in the armed forces, then expect to get an easy ride on Mudcat where decent people post.

I know you can't change mindsets overnight and I know that in his case, you are never going to reform his outlook on life so don't bother. But it's a bit like the man canvassing for SNP here in Inveraray last year. I asked what their take was on equality and got a reasonable answer. The man pointed out that this does not mean requiring people to change views but to ensure the argument for decency wins out. He pointed out that he was ashamed of his father, who he said held views that most people would find awful but seeing him as a lost cause, accepts that some things never alter. Just don't let them influence society.

I agreed with that. But it doesn't make it any easier to read on Mudcat of all places someone twisting false health statistics to demonise me and my husband.

I don't know how black or Asian people feel about the disgusting stance of Farage but as a gay person in The UK, I certainly get the drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 03:56 AM

Allan Conn: "The post I replied to was in response to your post above where you agreed with Farage and said that Britain is now colour blind. In other words you were saying racism based on colour is no longer a problem in Britain."

...'colour blind'? ........... 'racism based on colour'?


I'm clear.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 03:10 AM

"Mr Farage says that Britain is now "colour blind" and I agree with that."

Ake I am happy to discuss anything and of course different people have different views but I find it a waste of time when people deny what was being talked about when it is there in black and white. The post I replied to was in response to your post above where you agreed with Farage and said that Britain is now colour blind. In other words you were saying racism based on colour is no longer a problem in Britain. Or that at least is how it reads even if that wasn't meant. If someone disagrees with your statement or challenges it you can't then just say "Oh we weren't discussing non whites so don't bring that up!" I

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 07:59 PM

Ed T. "I rarely jump to say someone is "wrong", but the record of posts show you are not accurate,, gfs. Regardless of the variety of topics, black immigration was clearly one of them in a number of posts."

That almost makes sense, except, I don't believe I've ever posted a post in regards to 'black immigration'.

Oh well, when 'talking points' fail, just make something up~!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Musket
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 05:48 PM

UKIP use the usual techniques of wannabe despots and fascist scum by creating scapegoats. So not surprised to read support for their awful immigration stance by someone desperate to blame others for everything.

Anyone got a bucket?

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Elmore
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 03:40 PM

My thread has taken a strange turn, but that's okay, it's a free country.(sort of)

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 02:53 PM

"The race or colour card is just the easy way out"

"Doublespeak", as is the bastardization of "liberal" by some.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 02:49 PM

Note the reference to one such post relating to black people, by Steve-as an example:

""One silly old woman? This country is heaving with people who don't like the look of black people. You have so many prejudices yourself that they seem to be making it difficult for you to detect another one even when it jumps up and bites your bum. And I won't even dwell on the sexist overtones of "silly old woman".

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 02:47 PM

No, you are wrong Ed and Allan, the discussion concerner "white" immigration from within the EU. The race or colour card is just the easy way out

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 02:46 PM

I rarely jump to say someone is "wrong", but the record of posts show you are not accurate,, gfs. Regardless of the variety of topics, black immigration was clearly one of them in a number of posts. It still stands that ake could have easily made it clear what topic he refered to versus denying the multi meaning of spade-where he was also incorrect.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 02:19 PM

Sorry Sanity, missed your post there, thanks for your support....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 02:16 PM

No, you are wrong Ed and Allan, the discussion concerner "white" immigration from within the EU.

The race or colour card is just the easy way out, on this point Mr Farage is correct......nothing to do with colour prejudice.

BTW Allan I don't agree with much of UKIP economic policy, but I repeat, on this particular point, an important point for party and country, they are quite correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 01:53 PM

Akenaton: "I was taken to task for misogyny by calling her a "silly old woman", a description I defended by saying that I like straight talking..."calling a spade a spade" semmples.   nuthin to get hung about?
The connotations of your protestations are worrying....:0)"

You just got to overlook the poor idiot-logues, who only see things through their prism of political talking points, and cannot reason anything beyond them, nor can they fathom having anything to do with a wider view. Limiting one's scope of reality to political talking points has done more to damage intelligent dialogue, than even the piss-poor 'education'(read propagandizing), system.

That being said, there IS a cure..... Realize that the political system has crashed, is not honest, and walk away!!!
Use the passion, to your advantage, in playing your instrument.....
....at least the sound isn't lying to you...it just is what it is!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 01:38 PM

It seems to me Ake, it would have been "straighter talk" by making your intentended meaning clear early, (that you were refering to a silly old woman, not the other issue blacks) versus denying the other potential (aka, slur) meaning for the term you used (and refering to liberals, yada yada).

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 01:30 PM

Maybe so, Ake-but there was also a discussion going on at the same time related to immigration, black people and prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 01:19 PM

The term "to call a spade a spade" is itself completely neutral and has nothing to do with ethnicity. However as the discussion was about black people, and spade is also a common derogatory term for black people, then it was lets say not the best choice of words to use as it could be easily misconstrued even if it was meant innocently enough.

I was sitting in a cafe in Edinburgh next to a table of middle eastern looking guys when my mate who was checking the scores on his phone shouted out "the Arabs are getting stuffed" which brought some real bemused and rather uncomfortable looks from the next table. The Arabs is the nickname for Dundee Utd fans. He immediately realised what he's said and looked more than a bit sheepish. It was innocent enough but in the context was inappropriate. Sometimes you just have to think before you speak!

As to the idea that I condemn UKIP because of one woman. That is nonsense. That was just the example I gave

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 01:12 PM

Ed, the point we were discussing at the time, was the silly woman from UKIP, who was white, not black.
I was taken to task for misogyny by calling her a "silly old woman", a description I defended by saying that I like straight talking..."calling a spade a spade" semmples.   nuthin to get hung about?

The connotations of your protestations are worrying....:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 12:53 PM

Oops, frustrated :(

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 12:50 PM

Anyone ever hear of the story of a boy who constantly cried "Liberal" for every situation he was frusterated by and was ignored when a real liberal situation emerged;)

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 12:28 PM

I have never heard the term "spade" used to describe a black person, nor have I ever used such a term in that context.

All this is simply another illustration of "liberal" ideological idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 12:20 PM

I'm confused now. What am I supposed to call my spade?
Don't tell any one, but I also have a hoe! :0o

and you just wouldn't believe the number of filthy and non PC stonemasons tools I have in my "brattie"

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 11:59 AM

""You don't need a lexicologist to tell you that the attitude behind the usage of many words is more important than the words themselves.""

Exactly my initial point, when I observed that the use of the "spade" term was "An odd term, given the discussion" (one of which at that time, was "negros").

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: pdq
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 11:35 AM

The Bias-Free Word Finder: A Dictionary of Nondiscriminatory Language.

Okay, so I've committed a few false generics in my time. I'll even admit to linguistic perjoration. And, yes, I've dabbled in sexual asymmetry, though I never developed a taste for exonyming. Still, I always thought I could get along quite well without a dictionary of nondiscriminatory language. But Rosalie Maggio, author of The Bias-Free Word Finder, has shown me the prejudice of my ways (not to mention expanded my use of academic jargon). Having now carefully examined some 5,000 words, phrases, or expressions that reportedly oppress, exclude, or offend, as well as 15,000 alternatives, I've never felt more semantically challenged. Apparently I've been committing a whole host of socially unattractive sins, including adultism and--this one really hurts--orgasm-as-norm thinking.

Maggio considers words like nubile, petite, brazen, curmudgeon, and bruiser as "sexist." Bombshell has to go because it's also "militaristic and violent," as do Renaissance man, dirty old man ("conveys very little real information"), Big Brother, Caesar's wife, and deus ex machina (deus is in the masculine gender). Instead of milquetoast, Maggio suggests "someone with cold feet." She would replace raise Cain with "lecture," "make mischief," or simply "carry on." Chuck Achilles' heel for "where the shoe pinches." "Made of money" is deemed a perfect substitute for rich as Croesus. Hunk for men is verboten; use "centerfold" instead.

Can you imagine having dinner with this woman?

Like many p.c. reformers, Maggio has erred on the side of self-parody. Certainly it's hard to argue with her basic contention that language influences culture as much as culture influences language. And some of what she proposes is perfectly reasonable: parallel treatment for the sexes (husband and wife, for example, not man and wife); people first (a person with a disability, not a disabled person); and an "insider/outsider" rule (derogatory words should be used only by groups to describe themselves).

But the problem is that Maggio goes well beyond banishing words that offend or exclude people. She believes we must rid the language of all words and phrases that are gender- or race-specific, no matter how inoffensive and regardless of the spirit in which they are uttered. Maggio would like to castrate (sorry: "draw the teeth of," "spike the guns of") the language, to make it into a prosaic eunuch "pushover," "doormat"). She sees this as not only making the world a better place, but as making writers better at their craft. "By replacing fuzzy, overgeneralized, cliche-ridden words with explicit, active words and by giving concrete examples and anecdotes instead of one-word-fits-all descriptions you can express yourself more dynamically, convincingly, and memorably."

But many of Maggio's linguistic tinkerings seem random. For instance, we are allowed to retain sexist names for nonhumans, such as alewife, timothy grass, daddy longlegs, sweet william, and myrtle. The alternatives for a word like ditz don't seem all that friendly: "missing some marbles," "mind like a sieve," "not all there." Beach bunny and bosom buddy are not heavily discouraged. For all of you who've taken to replacing -man with -person, be advised that this "weak, awkward, and annoying suffix ... is not generally recommended."

And then there's the condescending tone that turns up throughout the book: "Readers may choose words at their own levels of understanding and commitment"; writers using biased words like right-hand man "leave their readers as uninspired as they are." Under "Amazon/amazon": "Use the term only if you understand its history and multiple connotations." And my favorite: "If you must think in halves. . . ."

Although the book is intended as a dictionary, you have to read it through first to get your money's worth. Otherwise, you're bound to miss the numerous mini-essays that appear throughout, offering insights on such issues as body image, aggression, and homophobia. You also miss lots of factoids of questionable significance. For instance: 36 percent of embezzlers and less than 1 percent of U.S. auto mechanics are women.

Defending herself against presumably numerous critics who have mocked her zealotry, Maggio writes: "But then ridicule, it is said, is the first and last argument of fools." Well, call me a fool, I guess, because I found this word finder a lot more silly than useful. You don't need a lexicologist to tell you that the attitude behind the usage of many words is more important than the words themselves. But a dictionary of this type makes no such distinctions, in the same way that books decrying women's use of make-up or plastic surgery condemn the product or service rather than the questionable motivating factors. Continuing to expand a list of un-p.c. no-nos will do little to create a more egalitarian society or raise anyone's self-esteem--though it's a perfect way to avoid focusing on underlying causes and serious solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 11:06 AM

The link lists some current slurs by group catagory to avoid - some are likely to be considered more significant, some less so. Spade is included.

interesting list of potential slurs 

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 10:55 AM

To say the same as the above in a less inflammatory way: words and phrases are all about communication which means they are normally about how they are understood now. Whether that bears any relationship to what they meant 10, 100, or 1000 years ago is interesting but only important ultimately if you are trying to read documents of that age

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 10:26 AM

..is NOT an ethnic slur. It derives from an ancient Greek expression

OH, please, PeeDee- I can see where certain of our friends in the British Isles might POSSIBLY not be aware of the long-standing meaning and useage of U.S. slang "spade" as a derogotory one for persons of color.

Now you, on the other hand, are just being an asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: pdq
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 09:45 AM

"to call a spade a spade"
    (Phrase Origins)


    ...is NOT an ethnic slur.
       It derives from an ancient Greek expression: _ta syka syka, te:n
    skaphe:n de skaphe:n onomasein_ = "to call a fig a fig, a trough a
    trough". This is first recorded in Aristophanes' play _The Clouds_
    (423 B.C.), was used by Menander and Plutarch, and is still current
    in modern Greek. There has been a slight shift in meaning: in
    ancient times the phrase was often used pejoratively, to denote a
    rude person who spoke his mind tactlessly; but it now, like the
    English phrase, has an exclusively positive connotation. It is
    possible that both the fig and the trough were originally sexual
    symbols.
       In the Renaissance, Erasmus confused Plutarch's "trough"
    (_skaphe:_) with the Greek word for "digging tool" (_skapheion_;
    the two words are etymologically connected, a trough being
    something that is hollowed out) and rendered it in Latin as _ligo_.
    Thence it was translated into English in 1542 by Nicholas Udall in
    his translation of Erasmus's version as "to call a spade [...] a
    spade". (_Bartlett's Familiar Quotations_ perpetuates Erasmus'
    error by mistranslating _skaphe:_ as "spade" three times under
    Menander.)
       "To call a spade a bloody shovel" is not recorded until 1919.
    "Spade" in the sense of "Negro" is not recorded until 1928. (It
    comes from the colour of the playing card symbol, via the phrase
    "black as the ace of spades".)
   
This, of course, does *not* necessarily render the modern use of
    "to call a spade a spade" "politically correct". Rosalie Maggio, in
    _The Bias-Free Word-Finder_, writes: "The expression is associated
    with a racial slur and is to be avoided", and recommends using "to
    speak plainly" or other alternatives instead. In another entry, she
    writes: "Although by definition and derivation 'niggardly' and
    'nigger' are completely unrelated, 'niggardly' is too close for
    comfort to a word with profoundly negative associations. Use
    instead one of the many available alternatives: stingy, miserly,
    parsimonious..." Beard and Cerf, in _The Official Politically
    Correct Handbook_, p. 123, report that an administrator at the
    University of California at Santa Cruz campaigned for the banning
    of such phrases as "a chink in his armor" and "a nip in the air",
    because "chink" and "nip" are also derogatory terms for "Chinese
    person" and "Japanese person" respectively. In the late 1970s in
    the U.S., a boycott of the (now defunct) Sambo's restaurant chain
    was organized, even though the name "Sambo's" was a combination of
    the names of its two founders and did not come from the offensive
    word for dark-skinned person.



    Source: [Mark Israel, 'Phrase Origins: "to call a spade a spade"', The alt.usage.english FAQ file,(line 4562), (29 Sept 1997)]

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 06:44 AM

My intent, in drawing attention to the "spade" term, was not to attach blame for the use of a term that some may (rightly or not) see as a racial slur. It was merely to note that using such terms in a race related discussion by a broad-based (geographic and cultural) community could lead to potentially unintended interpretation. I did use the term "odd" - nothing more.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics and Depression
From: Musket
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 06:21 AM

The problem with most terms of reference that can be misconstrued is misconstruing them..

For instance, where Akenaton calls gay people perverts, that is less offensive than his "I feel sorry for them.". Yet only the former has a word in it that is in itself offensive.

Or where his soul mate Nigel Farage says his recent comments are about nationality not race, it merely means he has gone from overt racism to promoting institutional racism.

The feeling of despair inflicted on their victims remains the same in all the above scenarios.