BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 15 - 10:29 PM

btw.. before I pack up for the night and go to bed/fall asleep on the sofa...

mrs punkfolkrocker came home from work tonight and told me
she'd just found out from local female gossip hotline
that her favourite long established and thriving hair salon in the town centre
suddenly closed at the end of last week.
all the staff being laid off without warning or notice.

Total surprise and dismay all round...

Rumours are that the owner/boss may have been 'living beyond her means'...

And this is the kind of small business and unprotected employment culture
that the tories, and sadly Labour, proudly boast about wanting to promote
and base our economy on...?????😣

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 15 - 12:21 AM

"those cunning tax accountants might even find ways of making their own fees tax-deductible"

Of course tax accountants fees are legitimate expenses to defray against tax - that is why everyone should use one.

As stated previously elsewhere I worked on a zero-hours contract basis for about 30 years (i.e. No guaranteed hours, if you didn't work you didn't get paid) and always used an accountant for my tax returns, standard deductions were:

1: My Personal allowances
2: His services
3: Private pension payments that were limited to ~17% of net relevant earnings (i.e. gross earnings, did not include investment income or interest)
4: Travel & living expenses (When relevant)
5: Medical expenses (Associated with work - mandatory requirement)
6: Training & refresher courses (Required for professional qualifications and upkeep of same to maintain and improve job prospects)
7: Calculation of "Time out of the country" due to work and credit for tax paid elsewhere

Provided I conscientiously kept records and receipts the guy I used could do this easily within three days and he always saved me money.

Nothing whatsoever stopping anyone from using the services of someone who knows the tax system of this country to minimise the amount of tax paid that is perfectly legal. Sure enough you have to spend, but you are spending for your benefit, like renting or owning, rent is money you put into somebody else's pocket for no benefit to you, whereas the money you use each month to pay off a mortgage is money ultimately going into your pocket.

GUEST,punkfolkrocker - 06 May 15 - 10:29 PM - Ask Mrs pfr if the ladies still want their hair cut by their usual hairdresser? If as you say the business was long established and thriving, what you have just described presents an ideal business opportunity for those employed there.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 May 15 - 02:38 AM

rom Teribus "like renting or owning, rent is money you put into somebody else's pocket for no benefit to you, whereas the money you use each month to pay off a mortgage is money ultimately going into your pocket"

Three things Teribus:

1. If you pay rent you get a roof over your head which is a benefit.
2. You still haven't explained to me how my son could get a mortgage on his limited income with no opportunity to save for a deposit.
3. You really have no idea about poverty inn the UK today, do you.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 15 - 02:44 AM

"that is why everyone should use one."
Even those on benefit, or in emergency accommodation, or trying to bring up a family on less than a living wage..... or all the other products of the increasingly sharply divided society created by Thatcher, those who came before her, and those who followed her.
What planet to you live on?   
Still no answer to the facts of what is happening in the world today - just the bluff and bluster.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 15 - 02:53 AM

If you know of an accountant who can make their fees tax deductible, send me their details eh?

I would say that the vast majority of accountant customers are paying for their services due to the complexity of the tax system and earn very small personal incomes. Self employed traders often scrape a living.

Unless you are employed and paying PAYE, it is a bloody mine field. That said, my accountant does feel that I pay too much tax. So do I but if the only way to reduce it is to operate fringe systems that leave a bad taste, I'd rather trust some Socialist principles and hope they use my taxes wisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 15 - 03:48 AM

On the information provided Teribus seems to have a good point about the hairdressers.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 15 - 03:57 AM

Yep - When I was self employed I used my own limited company, paid myself a salary that was not subject to tax and split the dividends between myself and my non-earning wife and son. Saved a fortune in tax, quite legally, and the accountants fees were a legitimate business expense. That was in the days I was a freelance contractor.

Now I have decided to spend the few years before retirement in a more secure, permanent role I am limited to PAYE and my accountant, to his credit (pun intended), advised that there was little or nothing he could do to save me money. Most people in the country are PAYE employees. Maybe if they did become freelance they could save money but it is a huge risk that many cannot afford to take.

On the other side of the equation we have the employers, such as mine, who will not use contract staff where there is intellectual property that belongs to them. They will not risk using contract staff, who can leave at a moments notice and owe no loyalty, where it would leave the business vulnerable to lose that expertise.

Put everybody on zero hours contracts and everyone will benefit? Hardly.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 15 - 04:01 AM

"On the information provided Teribus seems to have a good point about the hairdressers."

"seems" being the operative word...

providing any of these now suddenly unemployed, shocked & distressed staff have;

entrepreneurial skills
business acumen
spare capital for investment
a ruthless streak

etc.. etc.. etc..

As much as it might fit tory ideology, not everyone is cut out for self employment...

Not enough wannabe small business owners are fit individuals to be good responsible caring employers...

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 May 15 - 04:20 AM

Re: The Hairdresser.

The solution for the hairdresser was actually quite simple.

1. Sack two members of staff on minimum wage of £6.50 per hour (£13)
2. Employ two apprentices on their minimum wage £2.73 per hour (£5.46)

Net saving £7.54 per hour x's 40 £301.60 per week, that should help the cash flow.

The fact that two people have lost their jobs, the fact that nobody can live on £2.73 per hour needn't concern anyone ..... should it?

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 04:55 AM

Ah but £2.73 an hour is better than jobseekers (if you slave for enough hours, of course). We'll make sure it always pays to be in wage-slavery!

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:02 AM

Using apprentices is only good for the cash flow if customers still come, and if an insurer does not hike the premiums or insist on supervision.

Thanks punkfolkrocker - that was the response I was hoping for.

I wonder if similar considerations explain why the guys who clean cars in supermarket car parks are mainly from eastern europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:08 AM

Except that there is no need for a ruthless streak if there is a need to be met.

IME.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 15 - 07:13 AM

Oh Raggy, some fairly obvious comments on your solution:

"The solution for the hairdresser was actually quite simple.

1. Sack two members of staff on minimum wage of £6.50 per hour (£13)
2. Employ two apprentices on their minimum wage £2.73 per hour (£5.46)

Net saving £7.54 per hour x's 40 £301.60 per week, that should help the cash flow."

A) Ladies hairdressing is quite an art, not just anybody can do it and there is obviously a reason Mrs pfr described the business to him as long established and thriving - It is a business centred around custom trust and good will.

B) Reduce qualified Staff and you cut your income as four cutters can cut more heads per day than two.

C) The cutters you sack will take their "heads" with them so you have lost customers.

Just as well you're not running the country - you'd have us bankrupt in a month.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 May 15 - 07:28 AM

It would seem irony is lost upon you Teribus.

PS. When are you going to enlighten us as to how a young man on low income can afford to buy a house.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 15 - 07:36 AM

bloody hell...

I'm getting flashbacks to my OND Business Studies exam papers nearly 40 years ago !!!😜

[shame.. mum and dad's hopes of me getting set up for a good career for life
dashed by teenage rebellion and left wing counter culture rock'n'roll...🎸]

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 15 - 07:45 AM

I did ONC Business studies in the early 70's PFR. Went to grammar school after sec. mod. but could not get into the academic discipline of doing A level, History, English and British Constitution and Government. Never sure why I chose the latter. Still... Anyway, started work instead. Did the ONC on day release and passed with distinctions. Went on to be accepted on a day release/part time LSE degree in Economics at Wigan Tech but it was cancelled after the first few weeks due to lack of either interest, funding or pies. Not sure which.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:41 AM

Pies, Wigan ! One of my few memories of Wigan is from a pub that we used to stop at on the way to the dales that did good pies. One evening they sold out (of pies, not beer) and my memory is of the elderly lady from the kitchen, saying - with the diction and exaggerated mouth movements of one who has worked in a spinning room - "THERE IS NO PIES"

My dad was self-employed in an industry that faded in the 70s. Part of the help from a pre-Thatcher government was GCSE Business Studies at evening classes. The handout notes were really good and I used them 20 years later when I became self-employed. Plenty good enough for a hairdresser I would have thought. Is that sort of help still availble ?

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:48 AM

I kid you not. When I went to enroll for the degree it was in the canteen. The menu of the day was meat pie or meat and potato pie. Vegetarian option cheese and onion pie and for pudding apple pie.

Not sure if anyone does day release any more. One of the consequences of high unemployment I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:51 AM

..or what about help for setting up workers collectives and co-ops * ...???

do they figure at all positively on Cameron's radar...????


[* here I go again - always thinking back to the 70s...😜]

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:54 AM

This hairdressing lark. It must be lucrative because a mate described my Merc SLK AMG sports car as a hairdresser's car when I got it.

By Terribulus's logic, I assume they can all afford £90k+ sports cars....

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 15 - 10:16 AM

Raggy - in the case of YOUR Son - YOU help him

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 15 - 10:23 AM

"a mate described my Merc SLK AMG sports car as a hairdresser's car when I got it.

By Terribulus's logic, I assume they can all afford £90k+ sports cars."

Ehmmmmm NO Musktwat - obviously by your mate's logic, nothing at all to do with me.

Plenty of people have worked themselves up from nothing, Margarte Thatcher didn't stop them, but for far too many in this country it is just simply too easy to sit back and blame someone else - oddly enough one thing they all seem to have in common is their politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 15 - 10:43 AM

but for far too many in this country it is just simply too easy to sit back and blame someone else

What, you mean like the Tory politicians who blame Labour for the financial crisis rather than their banking mates? Or the popular press who try to blame immigrant workers rather that their banking mates? Oh, hang on, I'm seeing a pattern here. Wonder who finances the Tory politicians and popular press?

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 15 - 10:54 AM

Terribulus doesn't seem to grasp his own logic now. Not surprising as mostly he cuts and pastes it from the logic of Mr Dacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 May 15 - 03:58 PM

Teribus,

In previous comments you have clearly indicated you have no knowledge of the plight of people living with limited means. Could I suggest by way of an education you take the time out to visit people who live in inner cities or rural communities where your lovely rosy view of the country does not pertain.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 15 - 04:53 PM

Raggy, my first job paid me a month about a one-half of what most people earned per week, I HAD TO save 40% of it each month, it was mandatory. If somebody wants something THEY have to go after it and get it, not the Government, not the taxpayer, it doesn't involve anybody else, it is called self reliance and knowing the value of money and deciding upon what is important and essential and what is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:34 PM

Cold gravel? You lucky bastard...

zzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 15 - 03:16 AM

I agree, Teribus. If someone wants something they are the only ones who can make it happen. But when something happens to stop them, like sickness or unemployment, we should be helping them, not blaming them for our own deficiencies. You said earlier that it is far to easy to sit back and blame someone else. Again I agree, yet I do not believe that we are talking about the same things.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 15 - 07:48 AM

they are the only ones who can make it happen.

Or, many times, not. Fatuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 15 - 08:04 AM

Why fatuous, Greg? Simplistic maybe but, if you want something, you have the ultimate responsibility for making it happen. You may fail on a number of occasions but, if so, either try again or reset your sights.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 15 - 08:10 AM

"have no knowledge of the plight of people living with limited means."
Doesn't care particularly - not enough to acknowledge their situation other than to blame them for being in it - pure Thatcherism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 15 - 08:37 AM

Why fatuous? Because the facile answers of armchair philosophy rarely operate universally in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 15 - 09:11 AM

.. is it all over.. has she won again ???

constitutionally, can ghosts be made prime minister.. and if so.. for how many terms of office....???😬

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 15 - 09:51 AM

I am not following your reasoning here at all,Greg, please explain. What is facile about stating that the responsibility of getting something ultimately lies with yourself? If you are lucky, someone may give you something you want out of the blue but you cannot rely on it. If I wanted, for instance, a new job, who but me could make that happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 15 - 12:45 PM

If you are lucky...

And what if you're not "lucky"? I assume you ascribe to the myth of the "level playing field"?

Reg'lar Horatio Alger, aintcha?

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 15 - 01:46 PM

" If I wanted, for instance, a new job, who but me could make that happen?"
Only you
When I left school I walked the streets of Liverpool for three months looking for a job - never found one - even back in the 50s
Not far from where we lived (one of the largest overspill estates in Europe) there was a thriving factory estate containing over 100 small manufacturing firms - all gone - no manufacturing firms any more.
I finally got work on the docks as an apprentice electrician - all gone - no more ships coming into the Mersey.
I got work as a maintenance electrician for Liverpool housing department - the maintenance work reduced to a trickle because of Council cutbacks.
Moved to Manchester and worked for the council - work dried up because of cutbacks.
I finally moved to the soft under-belly of Britain, the South East - struggled to find work, but with help, got it, but lived hand-to-mouth because of the cost of accommodation.
Finally became self-employed and got regular work - this would never have been possible in the North of England, where I would have had to spend most of my life unemployed through no fault of my own - a skilled, time-served tradesman willing to work (in fact, spending most of my life being terrified of being unemployed, as was my father before me)
It is the responsibility of ny government to create the conditions whereby anybody willing to work has a fair chance to be able to - failing that, they must create a safety net for those who can't
Britain is not a poor country, on the contrary, compared to most, it possesses considerable wealth and influence
That with is being concentrated mor and more into fewer hands.
We are told that if we can't find work it is because we're lazy and if we complin about the conditions we sometimes have to live in, or poor standards of education for4 our children, or a failing health service, we are "moaners and troublemakers" - just been told this by a Thathcherite defending Thatcher's reign of terror.
He also said that Britain can't afford the minimum wage and Trades Union rights (we've ruined Britain by having them)
Who the **** do these people think they are, and who do they think we are?
Thatcher, Major and the banks, my arseum
F T A
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 15 - 04:30 AM

Nope, Sorry Greg. Think we may have to call it a day on that. Still no idea what you are on about and never heard of Horatio Alger. I have already said what happens if you are not lucky. Remember?

If you are lucky, someone may give you something you want out of the blue but you cannot rely on it. If I wanted, for instance, a new job, who but me could make that happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 May 15 - 09:02 AM

never heard of Horatio Alger

There's this thing called "Google"....

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 15 - 09:07 AM

Ok.. I just googled it..

oh.. it's an old American name drop cultural reference.. no wonder it's so obscure to us....😜

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Musket
Date: 09 May 15 - 09:09 AM

It's Alright Dave. They've never heard of Brian Fullard who used to own the chippy on Coggan St in Worksop after his father in law Walter handed it over.

But they have now.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 15 - 12:19 PM

I really don't want to squabble, Greg. We are, more often than not, singing from the same hymn sheet. But I really am puzzled by your attitude here. You seem to be saying that by stating that our lives are in our own hands I am, somehow, living in some sort of dream world. Is that right? If so, I genuinely do not understand why.

I think by your reference whoever it was and looking it up on Google you are just trying to divert attention from the main point and I am not going down that road. Why do you think that I am deluded if I believe that I can make a difference in my own life?

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 May 15 - 03:16 PM

by stating that our lives are in our own hands I am, somehow, living in some sort of dream world.

Absolutely, yes.

You ARE living in a dream world if you think that all that is required for "success" is individual initiative - excluding all the myriad factors outside the individual's control.

Let's talk about equality of opportunity, equality of of access to real education and .................... oh, shite, what's the fark's the point............................

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: akenaton
Date: 09 May 15 - 03:21 PM

"Let's talk about equality of opportunity, equality of of access to real education and .................... oh, shite, what's the fark's the point............................ "

Absolutely, one cant buck the jolly old system....what?

But you have got equality....of sorts.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Stanron
Date: 09 May 15 - 03:58 PM

What an interesting point this thread has reached. Equality. Of course we are not all equal. It appears to be an ambition of the left to impose equality on everyone and that might be a reason the Left always fails. Some people will see inequality as an opportunity and others as a challenge. So we aren't even equal in how we see inequality.

It is to the credit of any society if it aims to help those at the bottom of the heap, but not if in trying so to do they ruin it for eveyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 May 15 - 04:08 PM

It is to the credit of any society if it aims to help those at the bottom of the heap, but not if in trying so to do they ruin it for eveyone.

The 1% and the corporations paying their fair share is hardly going to "ruin it for everyone".

At this point the 1% & the multintionals are ruining it for every one but themselves.

Gonzo capitalism on steroids.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Stanron
Date: 09 May 15 - 04:48 PM

Good luck in your endeavours to impose equality on multinational corporations. Please keep us informed of your progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 May 15 - 06:41 PM

Take it up with the Republicans, stan.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: LadyJean
Date: 09 May 15 - 09:07 PM

Reagan wasn't a thug. He was an ass. He spent most of his life in Hollwyood, making the kind of movies they made in the 30s and 40s, where the good guys won, and there were no shades of gray. He was too nearsigted for combat, and spent the war years making training films. He saw the world through a Hollywood lense. This goes a long way toward explaining his policies, and toward explaining why people liked him. He did a good job of playing the role of president, until the last couple of years, when the Alzheimer's became obvious.

Ronald Reagan was an uninformed, senile actor.

What was Mrs. Thatcher's problem? She seemed bright enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Musket
Date: 10 May 15 - 03:50 AM

"Shallow fools spit the word "equality" to mean a nirvana where difference is eradicated. What they forget to mention is that they fear equality of opportunity as a concept because they didn't take it themselves. An equal chance at happiness and success can be dictated by government. Naysayers are generally failures with attitude."

A quote from a book I am reading. It had been highlighted by over 800 readers.

Subject: RE: BS: Pro / Anti Thatcher Squabble Thread...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 15 - 04:27 AM

"What was Mrs. Thatcher's problem?"
It's rumoured that Pinochet jilted her
Jim Carroll