BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:30 PM

Whatifwhatifwhatifwhatifwhatifwhatifwhatifwhatifwhatif.....there, that should cover it. Do grow up, you what-if babies.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:00 PM

Keith A - "why not ask a Muslim bakery to make a cake with a slogan supporting it?"

I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that if a non Muslim made this request of a Muslim baker, was refused it and tried to make a public issue of it he would be called an Islamophobe for that by the usual suspects here.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:59 PM

You may be assured that gay people down the years have suffered a damn sight more abuse than you could ever imagine, much of it from Christians. I've decided to refrain from name-calling around here, but it would be a dereliction of all my principles if I failed to point out to you that your post is replete with the most obnoxious kind of hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:03 PM

I know we are repeating ourselves here but, the way some folks post here, you'd have thought that they told the customer....no way mate, we don't serve queers ere......   no, as the mirror columnist stressed, it was a stand on the bible , not any kind of antagonism against any individual whatever their sexual activity. ie they would serve the customer, serve the cake, but could not in good conscience supply the message.   if you want to call that bigotry, I hope you find such interpretation comforting in your bigoted attitude to Christians !. well maybe not too comfortable.....    the homosexual activists feelings were hurt were they ?. poor soul....he certainly would soon crumble if he got the abuse Christians get here . maybe I should start throwing my toys out the pram !

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:00 PM

According to this Telegraph article, Ashers is well known to be a Christian bakery.

I am sure that is why they were selected.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11617624/Religious-faith-and-homosexuality-the-perfect-recipe-for-intolerance.html

The fact remains that the bakers did not and do not refuse to serve gay folk.
They only refuse to write political slogans that conflict with their own views.
You are allowed to discriminate aginst political slogans.
The judge or the law is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 02:46 PM

Thinking about the 'se-up' theory, how's this for a far more likely scenario
A gay man orders his cake for a private party (fact)
The bakery accepts the order (fact)
The sky-pilot fundamentalists get wind of it and persuade him to change his mind - (hypothesis)
They offer to finance him if there are any repercussions (fact)
There you have it, motive, means and opportunity, as Beckett (sighhhhh) is often saying to Castle
Motive
The Christian Institute is a fundamentalist organisation whose job it is to find 'Christian' issues and campaign on them - their sole raison d'etre
There is no better time to mount a test case, with a referendum on same-sex marriage among the Taigues down South, in the offing.
The baker can have no great objection as he has made his views on homosexuality known during the trial and to the press (a ripe plum just waiting to be picked).
Means
The Christian Institute is a wealthy and well-supported organisation.
- lotsa, lotsa cash to hand - enough to take any case "to the European Court if necessary".
Opportunity
Plenty of that in British Northern Ireland, where homophobia is so much a part of the Establishment culture that it alone in these Islands still holds out on gay marriage.
There you go - far more logical than just wishing there to be a Gay agenda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 May 15 - 02:23 PM

Greg F: ""....Christians who are increasingly portrayed as evil old bigots.""

You are quoting me from a quote, that I was quoting from another poster and addressing...
....you must be one of those 'smart people(?)' who only read to reply...but not to understand.....

Agenda gets in your eyes??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 15 - 01:44 PM

Christians who are increasingly portrayed as evil old bigots."

Not at all Goofus- just evil old bigots who are increasingly portrayed as evil old bigots - and not before time.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 01:19 PM

"I believe that the baker was set up and stated my belief."
You have no grounds for this belief whatever - there is not a shred of evidence anywhere to back it up and it defies all logic that he should have been.
there is no record of the baker ever stating his opinions before, and no record of the bakery ever refusing such an order, so there is no reason why they should have been targeted
The man

You appear to want it to be true - says more about you than it does about the case.
"The bakers refused to write a slogan that they disagree with."
The Bakers also made their views on homosexuality known, both during the traial and later, to the press.
"Over a third of the population of Ireland do not support gay marriage."
A great many of these wold heve been brought up as Catholics - the Catholic church is an open homophobic organisation.
That atmosphere makes for anti-gay bigotry - whatever colour you paint it.
A reminder of what the church aims to do with people's heads
" "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 15 - 01:02 PM

and deceive as many people as they can, along the way....because the larger group of deceived people there are, surrounding themselves, the more they are 'comforted' that the fairytale is the truth.

Talking about religion, GfS?

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 May 15 - 12:55 PM

Keith A of Hertford: " But no one gives a stuff about Christians who are increasingly portrayed as evil old bigots."

...but none care call THAT bigotry......or hypocrisy....but, one could rationalize that away, if it 'suits their agenda'....and then, insist on being blinder than a bat...and deceive as many people as they can, along the way....because the larger group of deceived people there are, surrounding themselves, the more they are 'comforted' that the fairytale is the truth.

....not that ANY of those people, 'gives a stuff about Christians' or really, anyone, but their own fragile delusion!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 15 - 12:08 PM

"I'm all for stamping out discrimination. But that's not what the McArthurs did to Gareth Lee. Their consciences simply wouldn't allow them go against the Bible. And now they've been dragged through the courts for it.

And, yes, I feel sorry for them – not because I agree with their beliefs but because they are now being pilloried for them.

If Gareth Lee wanted to make a point at a time Ireland was deciding on gay marriage, why not ask a Muslim bakery to make a cake with a slogan supporting it? I suspect he wouldn't dare – yet two middle-aged, peace-loving Christians were fair game.

Christians get a bad rap in this country. We're happy to protect the beliefs of Muslims, gays, ethnic minorities, fatties. But no one gives a stuff about Christians who are increasingly portrayed as evil old bigots."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/discrimination-case-over-gay-wedding-5748247

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 15 - 11:59 AM

Steve, I did not and do not lie.
I believe that the baker was set up and stated my belief.

The bakers refused to write a slogan that they disagree with.
That does not make them anti gay bigots whatever the judge said.
Over a third of the population of Ireland do not support gay marriage.
That does not make them all anti gay bigots.
Some gay people do not support gay marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,unconcerned
Date: 29 May 15 - 11:53 AM

Well I do. Issues of race, sexuality, gender and disability are all different to each other. That they are able to share a place in discrimination legislation does not change that. Regarding then as 'not different' makes it harder to deal with any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 15 - 11:47 AM

Keith just said that grounds of sexuality are different to that of race.
No. Keith did not say it because he does not believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,unconcerned
Date: 29 May 15 - 11:22 AM

I think we have a problem with definitions here Steve. I thought bigotry was along the lines of what the wikipedia page leads off with "Bigotry is a state of mind where a person obstinately, irrationally, unfairly or intolerantly dislikes other people, ideas, etc"

Your "utterances or actions [that] cause disadvantage to a person or a particular group" are what I think of as discrimination.

From that NI court judgement it can be seen that discrimination law covers discrimination about things that are not in themselves, or the in style of discrimination, related. For example I guess much discrimination against disabled people is when they are less profitable customers than able-bodies people - because of the expense of access etc.

My suggestion above of a cake shop saying it would not produce messages of a "sexual, politcal or religious nature" allows people to keep their bogoited state of mind to themselves. Like it or not accepting gays as normal like everyone else is a democratic decision, not one that 100% of the population are comfortable with.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 11:00 AM

Well I know I haven't got a degree in matters religious, but even so I don't know how I'm supposed to know that Ashers is a biblical name. Although I can't be certain, I have my doubts as to whether the commissioner of the cake knew it either.

You are not a bigot for thinking something. You are a bigot if your utterances or actions cause disadvantage to a person or a particular group of people simply because of your prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,unconcerned
Date: 29 May 15 - 10:52 AM

OK. I thought bigotry was something stronger. I will have to seek out a new word for what I had in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 15 - 10:36 AM

But is that, in itself, enough to be bigots ?

Yup.

So is saying that a fundamentalist religious leader 'preaches hate' bigotry ?

Nope. If in fact that's what he/she is doing, and a lot of them do.

Next question.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,unconcerned
Date: 29 May 15 - 09:44 AM

To continue. So is saying that a fundamentalist religious leader 'preaches hate' bigotry ?

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 15 - 09:42 AM

"That's the definition of bigotry." Is it ???

The NI bakery were found guilty of discrimination and the court judgement gives a good idea of what discrimination means in thet contexts. akenaton's Salvation Army friends would probably also be being discriminatory (if they did a 'provide your message' service).

But is that, in itself, enough to be bigots ?

The only Salvation Army people I have known well enough to get into conversation with (as neighbours and as colleagues) were extraordinarily tolerant of other religions (or, in my case, lack of them). The neighbour (who had some sort of local leadership role in the Salvation Army) was, back in the 1970's, the only person for whom religion was an imnportant part of his life (and that includes national religious leaders in the media) who I ever heard ever heard express the views that a Christian leader in Northern Ireland was 'preaching hate'.

I don't 'get' what the Salvation Army are about, and it would not suite me, but calling someone a bigot for being uncomforatble about something which a democratic societies representatives have (rightly in my view) agreed is 'normal' seems a bit strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 29 May 15 - 09:25 AM

Keith,your quote (pasted below) gives the origin of the name as biblical,nowhere does the web site state the owners chose it specifically because they are Christian. The fact they are Christian only emerged after their refusal to carry out the order because of their beliefs.
Your case that they were "set up" still seems to be purely your personal opinion.



Why Ashers? Well, contrary to popular opinion we are not called Mr & Mrs Asher. Our name comes from the Bible. Asher was a tribe of Israel who had many skilled bakers and created bread fit for a king.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:46 AM

Keith does not lie Steve.
If you can not produce any lie of mine, and you can't, you should withdraw....

In the face of a court ruling to the contrary you are saying that a gay activist deliberately set up the cake shop. Nothing that I've read in the court narrative supports this, and, as you were not there, you have no evidence to support what is a most unlikely scenario, especially given the fact that the shop originally accepted the commission. As you don't seem to mind mouthing this unfounded accusation, apparently because you're siding with the bakery, you are clearly not averse to lying, are you?

On what grounds do you accuse this baker of being bigoted and anti-gay?
The bakers believe in the traditional meaning of marriage, that is all.

That is not all. They believe in what they regard as the traditional meaning of marriage, fine. Then they acted on that belief by discriminating against a gay person. It's a classic, Keith. It's always fine to hold whatever beliefs light your fire. It is not fine to enact those beliefs in a way that disadvantages minorities. That's the definition of bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:25 AM

"I know for sure that these people would refuse to produce a cake which contained a slogan supporting homosexual "marriage"
Apart from confirming that your Salvation Army supporters are bigots, what does this have anything to do with the argument?
Can I reiterate that Asher's is a string of bakeries spreed over the city of Belfast - hardly your cozy local corner shop where everybody knows everybody else's business
Neither is it a hand-to-mouth enterprise that can't afford to pay for legal action and is forced to go to a fundamentalist organisation for financial backing
This is an agenda driven test-case by a group that specialises in tthe type of activities that have given the Christian Church the unsavoury reputation that it richly deserves.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:22 AM

All this seems to suggest that the baker,because of his personal views (to which he is entitled ) is being discriminated against by a "gay" person who has an axe to grind.Why don't "gay" people just get a life,like everyone else, and look on the bright side ??

You're joking, I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:20 AM

On what grounds do you accuse this baker of being bigoted and anti-gay?
The bakers believe in the traditional meaning of marriage, that is all.
You are making baseless assumptions about them which they adamantly deny.

They are not baseless. The judge found them guilty of discrimination. That is an act of bigotry. Whether you agree with the judges ruling or not is irrelevant. The accusation id far from groundless. It is proven in a court of law. What is so difficult about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Musket
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:16 AM

Keith just said that grounds of sexuality are different to that of race.

No it isn't. In Northern Ireland as in the rest of The UK, race and sexual orientation, together with gender and disability are aspects that it is illegal to discriminate against. If the bakery wanted a licence to conduct gay weddings, that is the one single stain where religious bigotry has yet to be put down for good in law in Northern Ireland. It won't be long though.

If you must spread bigoted lied to bolster your sick superstition, remember that normal people know the law as well as religious people and respect it even more.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:07 AM

Without wishing to get enmeshed in Keith's web of lies here,

Keith does not lie Steve.
If you can not produce any lie of mine, and you can't, you should withdraw that nasty, false accusation.


I would like to point out to him that "Christian baker" does not equate to "bigoted anti-gay baker".

On what grounds do you accuse this baker of being bigoted and anti-gay?
The bakers believe in the traditional meaning of marriage, that is all.
You are making baseless assumptions about them which they adamantly deny.

Have you evidence that the bakery declares itself Christian NO YOU HAVE NOT

Yes I have.
Their website explains that the very name of the bakery is a biblical reference.

You people are getting very nasty about all this, and making it a cause celebre.
Why?
Someone refused to write "support gay marriage" because they do not support gay marriage.
That is it.

Are you sure you would be denouncing the baker so fiercely if they were Muslims refusing the same slogan?
Many do not support gay marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,unconcernd
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:57 AM

So maybe they would have to refuse requests for other political or religious slogans to avoid being discriminatory.

But I hope they could produce their own-design cakes with any 'legal' slogan.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:51 AM

In the nearest town to where I live, the bakery is owned by friends of mine who are Christians. Their views are well known and they are strong supporters of the Salvation Army.

I know for sure that these people would refuse to produce a cake which contained a slogan supporting homosexual "marriage".
They would never produce material bearing political or religious slogans to which they were opposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:43 AM

"A case was brought against the baker who then had to defend themselves."
And now the Christian Institute has offered to bankroll them right into Europe - an agenda
"It is no secret that they are Christians."
Isn't it - and even so, are you claiming that all Christians would refuse such an order - does bigotry apply to all Christians?
Have you evidence that the bakery declares itself Christian NO YOU HAVE NOT
leae stop making thns up
Jim Carroll -

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:37 AM

Without wishing to get enmeshed in Keith's web of lies here, I would like to point out to him that "Christian baker" does not equate to "bigoted anti-gay baker".   The accusation that the "activist" was deliberately trying to set up a test case is entirely without foundation and it is entirely improper of Keith to assert this unless he has solid evidence to that effect, not just a twisted load of circumstantial false logic. I'd also add that any court detecting an element of mischief in the actions of anyone trying to "set up" a bakery, or whatever, would most likely throw out the case. This did not happen in this instance, so, if Keith or anyone else here wishes to dispute the verdict, they should give us chapter and verse on the points in the ruling that they find fault with instead of making generalised and unfounded accusations that sound like no more than Christian sour grapes. Finally, if I could have thirty seconds with that baker, I'd say to him that a Christian is someone who follows the tenets laid down by Jesus Christ. Jesus never said that marriage had to be between a man and a woman, nothing remotely in that ballpark. Don't quote me, but I'd have thought that good Christians shouldn't really be making up rules as they go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:29 AM

Yes indeed. It is your opinion, only that. Yet you keep stating it as if it is fact and as long as you do I will point out it is just speculation.

While we are on about silly speculation, how do you know that, in the time between accepting the order and then changing their minds, they did not contact CI to see if they would be interested in a test case? It is as valid a scenario as yours.

You obviously read my post. Still not want to tell me what you apologised for?

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:24 AM

"I am sure" - says it all doesn't it ?

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:23 AM

"It is no secret that they are Christians"
I am sure that is why they were chosen.
(Just my opinion Dave, but it makes perfect sense.)

So your statement is pure fiction,made to justify a biased opinion.
You have no concrete evidence what so ever to prove your case.
Sums you up,I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:10 AM

So, there is no proof that the Christian Institute are driving their own agenda

Because they are not.
A case was brought against the baker who then had to defend themselves.

A recognised gay activist chose a baker he knew would not write the slogan.

Yes.
It is no secret that they are Christians.
I am sure that is why they were chosen. (Just my opinion Dave, but it makes perfect sense.)

there is no evidence that they were in the habit of refusing such requests

Of course not.
How often do you suppose controversial poltical slogans are requsted on cakes?
It never happens.
It only happened in this instance in order to entrap a christian baker (IMO Dave).

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:56 AM

It has not been shown at all.

So, there is no proof that the Christian Institute are driving their own agenda and yet you say

A recognised gay activist chose a baker he knew would not write the slogan.

That has not been shown either! How did he know? The judge has ruled the discrimination was on the grounds of sexual orientation and not politically motivated. I still believe the decision of a legal expert over and above the assumptions of a layman who was not there.

Still intrigued as to what you were apologising to me for, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:39 AM

"A recognised gay activist chose a baker he knew would not write the slogan"
How did he know that?
Had he or a friend heard the baker make anti gay remarks?
Had the baker written anywhere anti gay sentiments?
Was it a random choice to see what would happen?
If the baker had said yes, would the activist have approached every baker in town until he found one who refused.
Since you claim to know the activists motives perhaps you would tell us which of the above apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:35 AM

"The poor bakers"
Six bakeries - 60 employees - Christian fundamentalists stepped in
"The two statements would be incompatible!"
Why - if Gay marriage is a welcome move in Southern Ireland certainly enough to make you strut, why is it acceptable for it to remain outlawed in this particular part of Britain?
"It has not been shown at all."
Yes it has - the fundamentalists are bankrolling it as part of their campaign to keep their particular brand of Christianity a feature of everyday life (along with opposing divorce) - a test case - "all the way to Europe, if necessary".
"A recognised gay activist chose a baker he knew would not write the slogan."
Not true in any aspect - the there is no suggestion that the customer chose the bakery - that is pure invention on your part, he didn't know they would refuse, in fact they accepted the order and then changed their minds.
"He could easily have chosen a different baker, as he did later."
As has been pointed out - he had no way of knowing that he would be refused - it was part of a chain of 6 bakeries - there is no evidence that they were in the habit of refusing such requests - pure invention on your part.
"He was setting them up."
No he wasn't - he was ordering a cake for a private party- there has never been a suggestion of otherwise (except by the 'Christians' here)
"No-one else offered any."
They didn't need to - these are the owners of 6 Bakeries hardly breadline cases (pun intended).
If they could't afford to go to court, they really didn't have to
You now appear to be making it up as you go along.
This is now a case of Christian fundamentalism gone mad on a subject that is done and dusted throughout these Islands (except British Ireland) being defended by people who claim to support Gay marriage - Alice in Wonderland writ large!!
If you have any proof of your claims feel free to put it up
I wait with interest to lear of the widespread harassment of Bakeries
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:31 AM

All this seems to suggest that the baker,because of his personal views (to which he is entitled ) is being discriminated against by a "gay" person who has an axe to grind.Why don't "gay" people just get a life,like everyone else, and look on the bright side ??

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:11 AM

When the result of the referendum was announced, you smugly declared "welcome to the 21st century" - are we going to see Northern Ireland congratulated for remaining in the medieval past?

Obviously not Jim.
The two statements would be incompatible!

THe customer who requested the cake was accused here of mounting a test case to promote an agenda - now it has been shown that the opposite is the case and it is Christian fundamentalists who are prepared to support bigoted behaviour to drive their own agenda.

It has not been shown at all.
A recognised gay activist chose a baker he knew would not write the slogan.
He could easily have chosen a different baker, as he did later.
He was setting them up.

The poor bakers were in no position to refuse that finacial help.
No-one else offered any.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:11 AM

Bakeries have been harassing   folks with calories forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:53 AM

One of the other Christian targets of The Christian Institute is divorce, b.t.w. - a real modern issue!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:51 AM

"The bakery is going to appeal the ruling."
The bakery are being bankrolled by a fundamentalist Christian group, 'The Christian Institute' whose aims are to combat 'political correctness' and allow "free speech" on all matters no matter whi it hurts,- they seem to have a thing about gays and have set Peter Tatchell in their sights in Britain.
They have declared that they will bankroll Asher's Bakery into Europe if necessary
THe customer who requested the cake was accused here of mounting a test case to promote an agenda - now it has been shown that the opposite is the case and it is Christian fundamentalists who are prepared to support bigoted behaviour to drive their own agenda.
When the result of the referendum was announced, you smugly declared "welcome to the 21st century" - are we going to see Northern Ireland congratulated for remaining in the medieval past?
Of all the places in these islands, the British bit of Ireland remains alone in standing out against mixed-sex marriage.
Those who support gay marriage but are doing their best to support its opponents seem to be living up tho the punch line of the old story of the recruit trying to dodge the draft by claiming poor eyesight - "Your mouth may be saying one thing, but your dick's pointing straight to West Point".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 04:21 AM

"Whatever the case, this matter has caused widespread harassment of bakeries"
First we've heard of it over here - can you let us have the information so we can pass it on?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 15 - 01:49 AM

It is not the same as refusing a customer on grounds of race.
That is a straw man argument.

The slogan was refused not any customer.
That is their case.
It would have been refused whoever the customer.

It is illegal to discriminate against the person but not the slogan.
The bakery is going to appeal the ruling.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 15 - 12:08 AM

Well, if you can believe the Internet (and who doesn't?) this has blown up into a World War of Cakes. Google bakery gay marriage for the sordid details. I applaud and support the Colorado bakery that was under investigation for refusing to make anti-gay cakes with "God Hates Gays" and similar slogans. The Colorado bakery was accused of discriminating against a customer's Christianity, but the Colorado Civil Rights Commission rejected the complaint. I read the Northern Ireland Court Judgment cited above, but I still don't quite believe it. While the act of refusing to design a cake doesn't seem to me to be discrimination, the defendants' pseudo-religious blatherings in the court file make it clear that they are bigoted against gays.

Whatever the case, this matter has caused widespread harassment of bakeries, on both sides of the issue. I hope the judge in Northern Ireland is satisfied that justice has been protected.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 15 - 06:05 PM

Nice exit....bye, bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 15 - 05:58 PM

You clearly have no idea what "straw man" means, though you clearly think that using the term makes you sound clever. Now, as I have no idea which "Guest" I'm talking to, if you don't mind I'll waste no more time on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 15 - 05:49 PM

That would be the straw man principle right, something you and Greg F have acquired and use have no qualms using to obfuscate.