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BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 May 15 - 05:17 PM Principles, Guest, principles. I recommend you acquire some. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: GUEST Date: 28 May 15 - 05:13 PM Yes, and I suppose you'd also think it's preposterous that a judge in a free country would find a simple refusal to serve Negroes at a lunch counter to be discrimination as well. Because that's the same as putting a slogan on a cake........good grief, get a grip man! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Ed T Date: 28 May 15 - 04:55 PM I posted the last link, as it relates to earlier posts I put forward suggsting similarities between current gay legal issues and past USA racial issues. (To which, recall some posted puzzlement as to why therecwoukd be any possible association). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Ed T Date: 28 May 15 - 04:49 PM In this presentation, history professor, Peggy Pascoe, disvusses the history of mescegenation laws in the USA and the relationship to gay marriage laws. Gay Marriage-miscegenation |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: fat B****rd Date: 28 May 15 - 04:39 PM The Ashers are appealing the decision so this will run and run. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: GUEST,unconcerned Date: 28 May 15 - 03:48 PM "What if the news story is wrong?" "simple refusal to print a slogan" The actual judgement is linked above ( http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Judicial%20Decisions/PublishedByYear/Documents/2015/%5B2015%5D%20NICty%202/j_j_2015NICty2Final.htm ) Seems clear, but not simple. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 May 15 - 03:42 PM You know, there's another possibility that hasn't been brought up: What if the news story is wrong? I'm sorry, but I think it's preposterous that a judge in a free country would find the baker's simple refusal to print a slogan to be discrimination. I think there's more to the story that the reporter didn't report. -Joe Offer- Huh? What is this supposed to mean? The court's ruling is freely available, it has been posted here and it is full of detail. Denial is useless. You have as much on this as it is possible to have. Wassup, Joe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Hopfolk Date: 28 May 15 - 03:32 PM Of all the Cake shops in all the country, ya had to walk into THIS one! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 May 15 - 03:26 PM Good grief, there are enough sour grapes around here to make a gallon of gutrot. Great post, Greg. A sane corrective to the explosion of nonsense being spouted around here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link Date: 28 May 15 - 03:10 PM Joe, in a "free"country there are still areas where that freedom is limited, and when it comes to Christians convictions, as in this case, the politically correct party line is, I suspect, usually likely to win in the UK. Sure, the judge is the professional , but I have not read anything that there was any other issue involved. If there were any proof that the bakers had any animosity against homosexuals , other than their declining to decorate a cake with a message that offended their Christian belief, the press would likely have reported it.........though of course, not forgetting the old adage about the press and damned lies !. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 28 May 15 - 02:53 PM Here may be an anomaly - and please correct me if I am wrong ??? But, in present day UK can pub/club doormen refuse you entry, and bar staff refuse to serve a person and demand they leave, without giving any reason at all...??? 😕 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Greg F. Date: 28 May 15 - 02:46 PM I'm sorry, but I think it's preposterous that a judge in a free country would find the baker's simple refusal to print a slogan to be discrimination. Yes, and I suppose you'd also think it's preposterous that a judge in a free country would find a simple refusal to serve Negroes at a lunch counter to be discrimination as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Ed T Date: 28 May 15 - 02:19 PM This brings to mind a Canadian law case related to First Nations right, under an old treaty to fish commercially without a government licence. After years of foot dragging, and government enforcement halting such fishing, a First Nations group reported to fisheries enforcement agents that "an indian" was fishing eels at a specific location and an arrest followed. This set in motion alegal case that eventually ended up in the highest court for a ruling-and the First Nations case was successful. This one case, which had little to do with eels, had enormous impact on affirming First Nations treaty rights and in future relationships (natural resources and otherwise) between all First Nations and the government far beyond fish. So, while this case was kinda about "cake", I predict it would be legal folly to judge that it will not be legally interpreted far beyond tasty pastry and will not have a broader legal impact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Joe Offer Date: 28 May 15 - 01:52 PM You know, there's another possibility that hasn't been brought up: What if the news story is wrong? I'm sorry, but I think it's preposterous that a judge in a free country would find the baker's simple refusal to print a slogan to be discrimination. I think there's more to the story that the reporter didn't report. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: akenaton Date: 28 May 15 - 11:57 AM Perhaps you have not lived amongst sectarianism Steve...I have and detested it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 May 15 - 11:52 AM NI is a very sectarian society, everyone knows the political and religious views of business owners.....and their family history! So a nation of busybodies as well? You do talk rubbish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: GUEST Date: 28 May 15 - 11:50 AM Gay people can now marry anywhere on our islands @stu - clearly you don't understand how our islands are goverened. There are four different jurisdictions that rule on gay marriage - it is now legal in three of the four instead of two of the four. It is still not allowed in Northern Island |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: frogprince Date: 28 May 15 - 11:03 AM Why in the world would anyone conclude that the baker was prejudiced against gay people? After all, all he did was express his opposition to their having the same rights as other human beings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 May 15 - 10:50 AM "The Christian church is in the process of being "set up" at the present time." No it isn't - it's in the process of being removed from its long-occupied pedal - not before time - it's done enough damage. The idea that the bakers were 'set up' is utter nonsense and easily provable to be so. Asher's bakery is one of a chain of six, employing over 60 people, so it was highly likely that its customers knew who the managers were, let alone knew their views on homosexuality. The owners name is McArthur, by the way, more of a reason for them not being known by their customers Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Stu Date: 28 May 15 - 10:06 AM Gay people can now marry anywhere on our islands, and this is a victory for tolerance and diversity. Yay! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: akenaton Date: 28 May 15 - 09:43 AM NI is a very sectarian society, everyone knows the political and religious views of business owners.....and their family history! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: GUEST,unconcerned Date: 28 May 15 - 09:40 AM There was also this: "[79] In McFarlane v Relate Avon Ltd [2010] IRLR 872 Laws LJ said :- 22. In a free constitution such as ours there is an important distinction to be drawn between the law's protection of the right to hold and express a belief and the law's protection of that belief's substance or content. The common law and the ECHR Article 9 offer vigorous protection of the Christian's right (and every other person's right) to hold and express his or her beliefs. And so they should. By contrast they do not, and should not, offer any protection whatsoever of the substance or content of those beliefs on the ground only that they are based on religious precepts. These are twin conditions of a free society. 23. But the conferment of any legal protection or preference upon a particular faith, however long its tradition, however rich its culture, is deeply unprincipled. It imposes compulsory law, not to advance the general good on objective grounds, but to give effect to the force of subjective opinion. This must be so, since in the eye of everyone save the believer religious faith is necessarily subjective, being incommunicable by any kind of proof or evidence. It may of course be true; but the ascertainment of such a truth lies beyond the means by which laws are made in a reasonable society. Therefor it lies only in the heart of the believer who is alone bound by it. No-one else is or can be bound, unless by his own free choice he accepts its claims. 24. So it is that the law must firmly safeguard the right to hold and express religious belief; equally firmly, it must eschew any protection of such a belief's content in the name only of its religious credentials. Both principles are necessary conditions of a free and rational regime." [how do you do italics ?]
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: GUEST,unconcerned Date: 28 May 15 - 09:32 AM What if the baker (or sign writer) were to say that "content of a pornographic, religious or political nature will not be accepted" ? I think I may have seen something like that and this cake business may explain it. It is illuminating to read through the posts that come below the link to the judgement. Several very outspoken people clearly have not read it and are talking nonsense. This quote (from the EHCR if I understand correctly) immediately had me thinking of many below the line discussions: "The Court re-iterates that, as enshrined in Article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion is one of the foundations of a 'democratic society' within the meaning of the Convention. This freedom is, in its religious dimension, one of the most vital elements that go to make the identity of believers and their conception of life, but it is also a precious asset for atheists, agnostics, sceptics and the unconcerned. The pluralism indissociable from a democratic society, which has been dearly won over the centuries, depends upon it. " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 May 15 - 09:26 AM The baker first accepted the order and at a later stage refused to complete it. They were sponsored by the fundamentalist Christian action group "Christian Institute." I have no justification or evidence to say that the customer was set up but it is as likely a scenario as the baker being set up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 May 15 - 08:59 AM You have neither evidence nor justification for those accusations. They were gay therefore they were mischief-making, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: akenaton Date: 28 May 15 - 08:43 AM The Christian church is in the process of being "set up" at the present time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: akenaton Date: 28 May 15 - 08:39 AM "Nobody wanted to set up the baker".....you must be joking! Do you think they were not perfectly aware of the views of the cake maker? If you don't, you must be very naïve indeed....what about all the Christian guest houses which have been "set up" There is one near me who were forced out of business rather than be dragged through court. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 May 15 - 08:09 AM Well, no-one set up the Irish baker. They went in to order a cake. Most normal people have got better things to do than set up cake shops and risk court cases. That what's annoying me about all this what-if stuff. And please don't tell me what I seem to be saying. Just read what I typed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: akenaton Date: 28 May 15 - 07:48 AM Should the baker have been forced to produce a cake bearing the slogan "We support Gay Marriage"? Regarding the law, the laws to criminalise homosexuality were certainly wrong. I oppose homosexual "marriage", just as I opposed criminalisation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 May 15 - 06:52 AM I am pretty sure Steve can answer for himself but if a Muslim baker refused to make a cake, with any slogan, on the grounds that the customer was gay, he or she would be subject to the same laws. If the common sense failed once again and it went to court it would be, again, up to the judge to decide if the law had been broken. The law is non discriminatory and the religion of the defendant would not be an issue. Anyway, why did you apologise for offending me Keith? I'm puzzled. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 May 15 - 06:36 AM Steve, you seem to be saying that it would be wrong to set up a Muslim baker or printer by asking for that slogan and then dragging them through the courts for refusing. So why was it OK to do it to a Christian? Is that not discriminatory? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 May 15 - 06:29 AM It doesn't offend. Who said it does? It is OK to say and it is OK for me to believe an expert in the law over the speculation of a layman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 May 15 - 06:09 AM Sometimes court decisions are wrong. I think this one is. It is OK to say that Dave. Sorry if it offends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 May 15 - 06:03 AM I'm quite convinced that the baker was probably indeed prejudiced against homosexuals Why? Because that is what the judge decided. None of us were there. How can anyone say she was wrong without being in possession of all the facts? Simply repeating that she was wrong does not make it so. Until a higher court changes the ruling the ruling stands. No point in further speculation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 May 15 - 05:59 AM I do not expect that to happen. In fact, if it does I'll do a Paddy Pantsdown and eat my hat. I have a little more faith in humanity behaving itself than you have. So, the conclusion is that you think the law is an ass, eh, Keith? We all do things whilst holding our noses. The cake man could have held his nose and done the cake and asked the fellow not to ask him again. Not a perfect solution but a better one than what happened. How about that, Keith? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 May 15 - 05:53 AM It is good to see deleted threads reappearing. Let us not abuse the gesture. Tear posts apart but not the poster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 May 15 - 05:51 AM I'm quite convinced that the baker was probably indeed prejudiced against homosexuals Why? No other complaints emerged despite the publicity. He says he served gay folks. Why would he not make a cake for one. It was just the slogan, which he would have refused whoever asked. No discrimination. If this decision is allowed to stand, expect different activists to request the same slogan from Muslim bakers, printers etc. How many such folk are we prepared to see dragged through the courts? It is not reasonable to demand anyone to produce propaganda material for causes they do not approve of, or to criminalise them for refusing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 May 15 - 05:49 AM Much of the debate about this cake has centred around "what-ifs". I don't think we can make decisions on that basis. You would thereby be reducing the cake issue to a single incident in the shop and trying to compare that with other simplistically-wrought scenarios. There was quite a lot more to it than that single moment of refusal, as the judgement document demonstrates. Of course precedents were taken into account, though exact precedents are impossible. We largely have to take the case on its merits. I've heard what-ifs of all kinds, including some on Question Time last Thursday. They all annoy me. They all sound like fall-back substitutes for taking on the real question. A UKIP-style ploy. So imagine how the neo-Nazi one went down. I understand that you were not making that equation, Joe, but it was a clumsy choice to make in the already-clumsy flurry of what-ifs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Joe Offer Date: 28 May 15 - 05:30 AM So...note that Northern Ireland is one of the few places in Western Europe where gay marriage is not yet legal. Therefore, "Support Gay Marriage" is a political slogan supporting a political issue that has not yet been decided. The baker in question refused to decorate a cake with this political slogan, which he opposed. The judge said his refusal to post this slogan was discrimination against homosexuals, and therefore illegal. I'm quite convinced that the baker was probably indeed prejudiced against homosexuals, but still within his rights to refuse to produce a cake with a political slogan he opposed. To rule that a merchant must produce merchandise promoting something he/she opposes, opens a whole can of worms. As I asked above, Would the same principle require me to make a cake praising neo-Nazis if a customer ordered it?
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 May 15 - 05:11 AM The cake may be stale but the thread is refreshed. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 21 May 15 - 09:28 PM What if... from now on.. cake shops employed nightclub bouncers to stand at attention either side of the door... "you can't come in" "Why" "Cuz of the rules.. now eff off !!!"😜 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 May 15 - 09:15 PM Having rules wouldn't let the bakery off the hook. Rules can be unreasonable. "No cakes for blacks" for example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: olddude Date: 21 May 15 - 08:22 PM And my point is i don't want dumb ass laws that serve only to tie up the court system. Ya can't argue with stupid. If someone doesn't want your business take it to someone who does. They don't understand that you can't catch gay. People are born as they are and for me God made everyone and if assholes don't get it they never will |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: olddude Date: 21 May 15 - 08:11 PM And I adore my youngest daughter. I could givea shit if sshe is gay or straight. She is happy, very successful and a very good person. Her partner is also. No one in my family cares about anything but her happiness and that's what matters to all of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: olddude Date: 21 May 15 - 08:07 PM No way did I ever equate that. What I said is bakeries here have rules..of their choosing. Including if you wanted a naughty girl picture on a bachelor party cake some won't do It. Others will find a bakery that fits your needs instead of forcing one. That's all |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 May 15 - 07:35 PM We've had lots of what-ifs in this thread. In general, these come from people supporting the cake shop bigot. I have four things to say about that. First, the people putting up the what-ifs need to tell us of cases of their what-ifs they've encountered and what was the outcome. If these things ever happen, which I doubt, then let them inform our discussion. Second, on the whole, people, barring the out-and-out insane, are not going to waste their time trying to get Jewish cake shops to make Nazi cakes, etc. Third, the law of the land always applies should common sense fail, which we hope it won't. Fourth, the cake man needs to reflect on how he can provide a fair and non-discriminating service to the public whilst there is the risk of his views precipitating unfortunate skirmishes with people belonging to minorities. Perhaps he's in the wrong trade. We really don't need people like him who pose such threats to the unfinished and right-minded business of doing away with unfair discrimination. And, dammit all, he could have held his nose and just done the bloody cake. No-one was going to die as a result. I surely can't be the only person to think that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 May 15 - 07:15 PM Homosexuality being entirely a behavioural issue Not only is this incorrect, it's a disgrace that it should appear on this forum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: Ed T Date: 21 May 15 - 07:13 PM So, old dude, can you be clear- are you actually attempting to equate porn with gay marriage? What to blazes are you talking about in organizing pickets? Talk about making little sense and over-reaction to a somewhat civil discussion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: akenaton Date: 21 May 15 - 07:11 PM I don't believe that the "outraged minority" here on Mudcat really give a damn about homosexual rights, the are more interested in the overthrow of social conservatism, and that means chiefly the Christian Church. Every post suppurates bile in the direction of people of faith.....yet they never recognise themselves as bigots :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it From: olddude Date: 21 May 15 - 07:05 PM And I guess you would force a Jewish baker to decorate a neo-Nazi wedding cake with their images. Or the Muslim baker to put mohammad image on cakes. Insane why the hell would I give money to a bakery that doesn't want my business cause when or if my youngest gets married I will be paying for the gay cake |