BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it

Subject: BS: Charleston - dare we talk?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 04:38 PM

Following a mass shooting in Tasmania Australia made radical changes to its gun laws. Since then there have been no more mass shootings in Australia. Following a mass killing in Dunblane around 15 years ago the UK made radical changes to its gun laws; since then there has been one further mass shooting in the UK.
In the USA there have been over 140 mass shootings this year alone. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 05:02 PM

Relax, its nothing to do with racism - even though Roof stated "I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country."
He was talking about Christians, it seems. Just more persecution. I hadn't realized Keith was an advisor to Fux News, though.



Fox News Twists Itself In Knots To Find An Explanation Other Than Racism For Charleston Shooting
Posted: 06/18/2015 4:51 pm; HuffingtonPost.com
   

Analysts on Fox News floated the theory on Thursday that the shooting at a historically black church in Charleston, South Carolina, on Wednesday night was motivated by religious animosity toward Christians, rather than by racism.

Host Steve Doocy suggested on "Fox & Friends" that religion was the likely motivation for the terrorist attack.

"Extraordinarily, they called it a hate crime," Doocy said in an interview with a pastor Thursday morning. "And some look at it as, well, it's because it was a white guy, apparently, and a black church. But you made a great point just a moment ago about the hostility toward Christians, and it was in a church, so maybe that's what it was about."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/18/fox-news-charleston-shooting_n_7614126.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 05:12 PM

That original post was from me - sorry that I forgot I have lost my cookie.
The Fox News item to which Greg F draws attention comes as no surprise. The point that I was making however had nothing to do with motive and everything to do with opportunity.
The reference to Keith as a response to my original post I do not understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: GUEST,#
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 05:33 PM

It was a hate crime directed at Black people. The guy was wearing a jacket with two flags on it: one was the Rhodesian flag from the White rule days and the other the apartheid flag from South Africa. My guess--mind you, it's only a guess--is that maybe somewhere along the line he was taught that Black people are the cause of America's problems. One fortunate thing is that he got the feds involved by crossing a state border from South to North Carolina. I don't know if the feds are involved, but if the SC courts try to sweep this one under the rug then nothing would preclude the feds from bringing charges against him.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 05:39 PM

The reference to Keith as a response to my original post I do not understand.

Goes with the Fux News story, Brendan. There's a War On Christianity going on, dontcha know? Keith can explain it to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 05:39 PM

Do the math... if there are many who hate enough to do these things, and there are millions of guns available... with lax laws about them, there WILL be crimes such as this.

And when generations of people have their egos invested in having guns.. whether they need them or not, the laws will be not be changed easily, and the number of guns will only increase because the firearms industry needs to sell MORE to stay in business. It is a vicious circle with (mostly) innocent people suffering from the viciousness of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 05:43 PM

Now, cmon, Bill - Roof was given that gun by his dad as a gift! Just shows ya how much he loved his son, and here you go trying to violate the poor guy's 2nd Ammendment rights!

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 05:44 PM

The story is about:

      Guns

      Terrorism

      Christian bashing

      Racism

      Mental Health

Pick the one that suits your agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Rumncoke
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 06:05 PM

The man was pretty obviously insane - at least by my definition of the term. Trying to find the reasoning behind the actions of a lunatic is not going to be very productive.

The church was white - at least the side which I saw in the photographic image was white.

Yes I know - you mean that the people who attended the church are mostly of the type called black, so it is a black church.

It is reported that 'the white guy' said 'you rape our women' but 2/3rd of his victims were women, at least one a grandmother. Perhaps he thought that he was killing lesbians. Who knows, but his actions were not those of a sane person.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 06:38 PM

So, you absolve racists by saying they're insane? That's just plain insulting to white folks AND persons of color.

Guess we better start building more asylums - going to need room for millions of "insane" people in the U.S.

The church was white - at least the side which I saw in the photographic image was white.

If that's supposed to be a joke, its in damn poor taste.

Perhaps he thought that he was killing lesbians.

Also in damn poor taste. And stupid into the bargain.

Perhaps he's not the one that's insane, there, Rum...

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 06:47 PM

OP sez:


"In the USA there have been over 140 mass shootings this year alone."


A quick check suggests that there have been 31 such shootings since 1999, starting with Columbine, defined as 3 or more lives lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 07:03 PM

"The number of shootings in which a gunman wounds or kills multiple people has increased dramatically in recent years, with the majority of attacks in the last decade occurring at a business or a school, according to an FBI report released Wednesday.
"The study focused on 160 "active shooter incidents" between 2000 and 2013. Those are typically defined as cases in which a gunman in an attack shoots or attempts to shoot people in a populated area.
The goal of the report, which excluded shootings that are gang and drug related, was to compile accurate data about the attacks and to help local police prepare for or respond to similar killings in the http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/25/us-mass-shootings-risen-sharply-fbi-report
future, federal law enforcement officials said."


I have noted that some people's research skills are curiously lacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 07:07 PM

And others'grey cells are curiously lacking as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 07:52 PM

A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths

In part by forbidding almost all forms of firearm ownership, the country has as few as two gun-related homicides a year.

The Atlantic

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 10:50 PM

Sigh. Shouldn't we have outgrown this crap by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Janie
Date: 18 Jun 15 - 11:03 PM

Thank you Bill D.

And thank you, President Obama for articulating so clearly that it is the presence of so many guns, most of them legally owned, that are the most rational explanation for the number of such mass killings, regardless of motivations of the mass killers, in this USA society.

Best way to prevent or reduce mass killings in a civilized society is to reduce the readily available means to engage in mass killings.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 12:30 AM

Wibble wibble!

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: LadyJean
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 01:15 AM

I expect we're going to learn that Mr. Roof comes from a community where everybody, or almost everybody, hunts. That his father gave him the gun so that he could go hunting. Sadly, Roof is insane, and he went hunting Black people, instead of deer, ducks or feral pigs. It's happened before.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 02:37 AM

So far as the women killed, they were potential parents for those the shooter perceived as horrible threats; I have no idea if that actually was in his sick thinking. And for god'ssake don't take that as trying to excuse this horrible, hateful, tragic mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 03:51 AM

"The answer is more guns not less. The killings always happen in gun free zones."

.,,.,.

Just to point out that the UK is a gun-free zone. We haven't had any such killings for some years now -- 5 years to be precise; and only three in the last 19 years. Try comparing your statistics with that, Mr Nameless·Guest.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 04:09 AM

Obviously guns are too easily obtained , but even in the UK handguns can be bought from the criminal fraternity relatively easily.

The guy was insane to an extent, according to what I have read.
He also hated either black people or Christians.....one hatred is as bad as another in my book.....
Even some sane civilised people like us, tend to think that people with alternative views should be "eliminated".

It is a sickness of modern society.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 05:41 AM

The answer is more guns not less. The killings always happen in gun free zones.
Clearly the killings do not happen in gun free zones, as they are done with guns.
What our "guest" means is that they happen where the intended victims are not likely to be carrying guns. But that wouldn't make such a snappy soundbite.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 06:50 AM

He wasn't insane at all, he is a nasty, racist bigot who had the means to kill people easily because he lives in a society that makes it easy to kill those you disagree with. He an (extreme) variation of normal and to pretend he's otherwise to is bury your head in the sand.

This is the price you pay for having lax gun laws, for everyone being able to have them and being able to buy them in WalMart. The insanity of it is plain to see for those of us that live outside the US, but if the Americans believe personal freedom can only be expressed through gun ownership and they're not willing to forgo that for the greater good then that's their business.

If being neck-deep in the gore of innocents won't convince you, then nothing will I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 07:06 AM

I was going to add my two pennorth, but Stu has expressed my thoughts most succinctly. I'donly add that I work with people with severe mental health problems. In the vast majority of cases, they are not the ones doing this sort of thing. It's also weird that the media are not talking about terrorism or radicalisation. Guess we know why not...

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 07:09 AM

Now is the time for mourning and for healing. But let's be clear. At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn't happen in other places with this kind of frequency. US President Obama

It may be hard for some there to believe, but by some measures the USA is not 'advanced' to some of us looking on.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Rumncoke
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 08:47 AM

Absolve? Excuse? Unwarranted assumptions, I assure you.

I would argue that you can't be a little bit insane - you either are or you aren't.

I can't see much hope of an improvement in the situation in the USA if even the president thinks he's living in an advanced country.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 09:01 AM

R&C, is insanity not a continuum rather than an either/or? Some folks are madder than others.

At the the moment we know nothing about the guy's mental state. What we do appear to know is that the murders were racially motivated. And what we also know is that this was an act of terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 09:26 AM

Police: Man in custody after disturbance at Richmond church
Updated 8:03 am, Friday, June 19, 2015


RICHMOND, Va. (AP) — Police say a man has been taken into custody for evaluation after he threatened worshippers at a south Richmond church.

Richmond Police Capt. Chris Gleason told the Richmond Times Dispatch (http://bit.ly/1Su9IVB ) the man was beating on a door at United Nations Church International on Thursday night with a piece of plastic.

A member of the black church told the newspaper the man, who was white, was yelling racial slurs and making threats.

Gleason says a police officer who was working security responded and called for backup. He says the man was taken into custody under an emergency commitment order and will be evaluated at a hospital.

The incident comes a day after authorities say a white gunman opened fire at a black church in Charleston, South Carolina, killing nine people in an incident that's being investigated as a hate crime.

___

Information from: Richmond Times-Dispatch, http://www.timesdispatch.com

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 09:30 AM

That his father gave him the gun so that he could go hunting.

No-one (or at least no-one with brains) uses a .45 automatic pistol for hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 10:07 AM

"White Supremacists Worried Charleston Shooting Makes Them Look Bad"

Ya can't make this stuff up, folks. That's a headline from the Huffington Post. Remember, you heard it here first.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: GUEST, ^*^
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 10:18 AM

Roof bought the gun, using false ID or pretense.

Rumncoke, African Methodist Episcopal (AME) churches are traditionally African American churches. In the U.S. south many practicing American Christians of all flavors attend Wednesday night services.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Rumncoke
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 10:32 AM

Insanity is usually accepted as describing a state of being - an insane person cannot be judged by normal Human values, their reasoning is beyond understanding, their behaviour puts them outside that which is acceptable to anyone able to comprehend their actions.

I would accept that there are illnesses such as mania, phobia and paranoia - terms a doctor might use to be specific in an attempt to describe them more accurately for medical rather than legal reasons, which could be more or less severe in their effect.

The actions of the man combined with what he said to explain them would seem to indicate insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 10:39 AM

Roof bought the gun, using false ID or pretense.

Nope. Old Man Roof bought the gun & gave it to sonny boy, thereby circumventng the law that felons can't own/purchase firearms. Thanks Dad!

Hopefully, the father will be charged as an accomplice.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 10:43 AM

an insane person cannot be judged by normal Human values ...The actions of the man combined with what he said to explain them would seem to indicate insanity.

He said he had to kill Black folks because they were raping white women and taking over the country.

And still you're trying to excuse him on the basis of insanity.

Unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 10:57 AM

Another white Christian terrorist. We've had plenty, but no one calls them that.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 10:58 AM

Fox News commentators opine that the guy's real target was Christians:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/18/fox_and_friends_on_charleston_shooting_it_s_extraordinary_that_they_re_calling.html

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 11:02 AM

Lighter: see post above Date: 18 Jun 15 - 05:02 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: GUEST, ^*^
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 11:14 AM

On National Public Radio this morning it was stated that Roof bought the gun himself. The facts of the case appear to be a moving target.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 11:40 AM

There appears to be no question that this was the act of a profoundly racist person. Can some here not realize that his legal sanity or insanity is an intirely separable question, and that no one is trying to excuse a horrendus mass murder?

I have been acquainted with enough profoundly, virilently (sp?)racist people to plug a lot of sewer lines. Not one of them has gone on a killing apree. Yet. But, in more than a couple of cases, I would seriously fear what would happen if mental illness stipped away normal inhibitions and better judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 11:49 AM

There are two political factions attempting to protect their ideology on this thread.
.

Seems to me r@c is correct, the guy is severely disturbed, probably Paranoid schizophrenic.....could have targeted anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 12:00 PM

So, saying for discussion that the man is profoundly ill: which came first, the jacket with plural racist imagery or the severe mental illness?
(I'm in Gran Canaria, getting what I have on this from this discussion and the always reliable internet)

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 12:02 PM

I'd want to hold fire on diagnosing him, especially from an armchair perspective. And his actions appear to be too premeditated and organised to suggest paranoid schizophrenia. Besides, we'd have to assume that all mass murderers are drive by mental illness - I don't particularly hear this bandied around where the perp isn't white. Just sayin'...

The key thing is that whatever his motivation was, this was a horrendous attack. The response of the local community has been incredibly restrained and dignified, and stands in stark contrast with the terrorist's actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 12:03 PM

> could have targeted anyone

But he didn't.

He seems to have driven over 100 miles to Charleston. Then he went directly to the city's most prominent African-American church, sat there for an hour supposedly praying, then shot nine people at close range, explaining to a survivor that he was letting her live to spread the word. He's now told police that his intention was "to start a race war" because he thinks blacks are "raping our women and taking over the government."

Insane? We'll see. But a racist and a mass murderer regardless. Those are just facts.

And what does *his* twisted mind say about Americans and about gun-owners in general? Frankly nothing.

And what do all the mass shootings of the past few years say? Only that the politicians (and, according to polls, the voters) have no real interest in addressing the problem - in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: meself
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 12:06 PM

frogprince has articulated the relationship between the man's racism and his (lack of) mental health simply, effectively, and, I am sure accurately. (Don't let that slow you down, though).

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 12:10 PM

I had a bad nightmare this morning before waking.

in my dream I was in a totally safe setting with my church honeys of all ages. A raffle was going on and I was helping to work the room selling 50/50 tickets and showing door prize items to go in the next raffle to boost those tix. One item I showed was a beat up item, and one dear soul, who I showed it to, pulled her newer, shinier item out of her bag to prove her 'no-thanks' moue.

Why was that a nightmare? Because I was showing a toy handgun in a county loaded with handguns..... and pistol-packin' grannies with ALZHEIMER'S and real guns.

Why am I taking the time to post this from a tiny fone screen? Because this is also my White Privilege post of the day.

And why is this my WP post TODAY? Because the murders in a Black church in SC are not sufficiently understood to be primarily about SYSTEMIC RACISM.

And because if that same raffle scene described above had occurred in that same Black Church Instead of what did happen--- and had police been present-- I have not one doubt that the pistol-packin' grannies at that fundraiser would have been murdered. Like others have been.

Don't believe me yet? I have the names and the stories. Please do ask for them. It may take 260 names before you know what I know, and I can get you started.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 12:34 PM

"the guy is severely disturbed, probably Paranoid schizophrenic"

Ake, that is pure speculation and with respect nothing more than an opinion.

What is NOT speculation is Roof said it was a racially motivated crime and he intended to start a civil war. Take the man at his word and accept that until we have something else to go on.

This conflation of mental illness in the media etc with this terrorist sounds rather like an excuse than a statement of genuine insight; useful for a certain section of a society that wants to deny this has anything to do with their particular demographic and is a damning indictment of how race still plays such a huge part in politics in the US.

Even as we discuss this here and now, somewhere in the US are large number of people are going about their daily lives that will be dead this time next year because of any number of gun massacres because the country is awash with guns and seemingly oblivious to the consequences and think those soon-to-be-dead people are a price worth paying for their 'freedom'.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 12:43 PM

IF we accept that the killing of another human is the act of an unbalanced mind then any killing is the act of an unhinged person. However, we can see so many holes in that premise they're not worth mentioning.

I suggest instead that we have glorified murder (whatever its 'degree') with terms like terrorism so much that it appears to be a logical endeavor excused by the perpetrators as acts which in and of themselves have a rational origin. We commit murder for king and country, for philosophical notions like religion or nationalism, for our race or ethnic brothers and sisters, and myriad other things that make it ok in the eyes of like-minded individuals and of course ourselves as individuals.

The latest slaughter was made much easier because the murderer had access to a gun. Perhaps he would have used a Molotov cocktail had a gun not been available. But then, maybe that would have been too much trouble and he'd have stayed in his room.

BTW, I agree completely with Stu's posts to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 01:05 PM

In addition to the proliferation of firearms, Stu, the country is awash with hate, and getting worse daily. White supremecist groups, "militias", Bundy-boys, anti-Muslim organizations, Tim McVeigh-type assholes & etc. Take a glance Here

We need to do away with these domestic terrorist groups as well as implement rational controls on firearms.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 01:26 PM

Too true, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Charleston - dare we talk about it
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Jun 15 - 01:57 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/jon-stewart-on-charleston-shooting-this-is-a-terrorist-attack-1.3119783

Jon Stewart nails it in one.