BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 07:57 PM

It's funny how some archaic forms survive in certain regions. Allan mentions "gotten", a long-lost Middle English word, as thriving in the Borders. Up in t' north of England, we still cling to thee, thou, dost and hast (with dropped h, of course!)

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 06:56 PM

"Gotten" still used in Scotland. Certainly here in the Borders. Wouldn't think of it as an Americanism if I heard it. Likewise "pinkie" for little finger which is something else often described as an Americanism which is normal usage here.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 05:24 PM

Abbey probably sent it to The New Yorker. See Between You and Me: Confessions of a Comma Queen by Mary Norris.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 05:13 PM

"I suppose this is a trivial matter but I do want to object to the maddening fuss-fidget punctuation which one of your editors is attempting to impose on my story. I said it before but I'll say it again, that unless necessary for clarity of meaning I would prefer a minimum of goddamn commas, hyphens, apostrophes, quotation marks and fucking (most obscene of all punctuation marks) semi-colons. I've had to waste hours erasing that storm of flyshit on the typescrip."
― Edward Abbey

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 04:56 PM

"You sound rather frustrated/cynical. Actually, I find both Canadians and yanks, at least the many I've met, to be unfailingly nice people and never boring. Now the joke thing, that's different..."

"Not at all. To me, they have precise meanings."

There you are. Two out of the last three of my posts in this thread, from a man who "rarely uses commas at all". Anything else you want to tell us that we can all utterly rely on to be truthful and accurate?

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 03:53 PM

"The World is so beautiful, but alas! There are so many assholes." 
― M.F. Moonzajer

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 03:47 PM

"A wise man's goal shouldn't be to say something profound, but to say something useful." 

Criss Jami

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 12:08 PM

Well Steve, I can't help noticing that you rarely use commas at all, which often makes your posting indecipherable.

I think "presently" in that context, is the most proper linguistically, as I may in the future embrace the Christian faith.
Which words do you think would be better suited?

I never vacillate.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 10:44 AM

Their butt four thee grays of gawed, go the.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 10:40 AM

I was reprimanded by..... for saying that, "I am presently, an atheist."

Several things: your incorrect use of commas; your pretentious use of "presently" when better alternatives are available; and your apparent vacillation over whether you're an atheist or not. Apart from all that, it's fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: PHJim
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 09:51 AM

When said after a joke, "get" means "understand".

"Do you get it?"

"get laid" is another common usage of "get".

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 08:10 AM

If, you don't get to it
When you get at it
You won't get to it
To get at it again

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 04:42 AM

I was reprimanded by..... for saying that, "I am presently, an atheist."

Was he correct.......given that I am, presently, an atheist?

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: meself
Date: 25 Jul 15 - 06:38 PM

In the schoolyard of my childhood, the phraseology employed in the review of 'card collections' was direct and succinct:

Got it!
Got it!
Don't got it!
Got it!
etc.

(I also recall squabbles which, in retrospect, were Shakespearian:

'Tis so!
'Tis not!
'Tis so!
'Tis not!
repeated ad nauseum or until the outbreak of fisticuffs).

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 15 - 03:35 PM

PHJim:
Now you're tempting me to accept more uses of the word.

"Get thee behind me Satan!"

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: PHJim
Date: 25 Jul 15 - 12:34 PM

"Get outa here!"

"Fetch outa here!"

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 08:22 PM

Get, Got, Gotten.
Okay, for most purposes these words grate on my sensibilities.
I understand 'Get' as meaning 'fetch' or 'go and fetch', not as statements of possession.
So "I've got that" means "I have been and fetched that". I may have used it as a child, as with card collections "Oh, I've already got that one" But "I've" is a contraction of "I have" so "I've got" (unless referring to fetching) means "I have have". This is somewhat tautologous.
I am, however, happy to accept a hymn starting "Of the Father's love begotten" on the basis that I've been brought up with it, and it is of a different era.

Having typed this, I'm a little surprised to find that although some uses annoy me, I'm happy with others.

Oh well, maybe I'm human!

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 07:07 PM

Take your uncalled-for poison elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 07:04 PM

"To me"

Well yes, of course they have precise meaning to "you", yourself and I.
No surprises.
Fortunately, that circle of influence is very small, possibly no larger than the area of the comfy chair you sit in.
;)

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 06:54 PM

Not at all. To me, they have precise meanings.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 01:58 PM

Terms like fustrated, cynical, boring and nice are all relative.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 01:33 PM

You sound rather frustrated/cynical. Actually, I find both Canadians and yanks, at least the many I've met, to be unfailingly nice people and never boring. Now the joke thing, that's different...

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 12:11 PM

"I have found that Canuckistanis have a slightly more enhanced tendency to understand jokes than yanks."

Or, as being boringly-nice, they mostly fake an understanding of jokes. Ask your wife, it's like those fake moans. Disgusting behavior on both fronts, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 12:02 PM

I have found that Canuckistanis have a slightly more enhanced tendency to understand jokes than yanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 11:54 AM

""Canucks are just northern North Americans, aren't they?""

Nah, Canadians are more like boring British folks, than wacky Americans;)

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 10:09 AM

Bill Bryson wrote an excellent book comparing American with UK English, noting the many British words and spellings that went over in Elizabethan times that evolved differently.

Putting "en" on the end of a word is still widely used colloquially around here. Here being a small part of a county. Other places too.

Anyone from the West Country may sympathise with the song Adge Cutler wrote about backing your car / tractor / horse and cart into where you can't get it back out again. "You've gotten where you cassen backen hasn't!"

Language evolves. People do too, some faster than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 10:03 AM

Which is what I'm saying. Anyway, PHJim, Canucks are just northern North Americans, aren't they?       [ducks...]

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 09:53 AM

There isn't any 'correct distinction' between got and gotten.

Americans tend to use more archaic forms than Brits do. 'gotten' is older.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: PHJim
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 08:04 AM

Steve, I'm a Canuck. We use British spelling, but our speech is closer to American.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 06:08 PM

I don't think that misbegotten, begotten and forgotten are in any way comparable to stand-alone "gotten". In any case, anyone may use "gotten" without fear of being wrong, though, in the UK, if you do use it you may be considered to be a bit of a bellend unless you have an American accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 06:01 PM

Had I thought you were in error I would have said so. In fact, "gotten" is not, as I read somewhere, an Americanism. It was a good old English word that fell out of use hundreds of years ago but which has continued to be used in American English. I can think of "ill-gotten gains" but of no other usage of the word in British English. As a typical Brit confronted by American English I was being a bit provocative, that's all. Mind you, PHJim, all this assumes that you are American. If you're British, and you use "gotten", it marks you out as being pretentious. But not wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Airymouse
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 05:57 PM

I remember having an altercation with my English professor about this very issue. He was a good teacher and he was probably right to prefer "got" to "gotten" in the context we were discussing, probably an essay I had written and was trying to defend. I said, "Well OK from now on it's "Moon for the Misbegot", "His only begot son","While I pondered weak and weary over many a quaint and curious volume of forgot lore." Alas, I have forgot(ten) how he responded.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: PHJim
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 04:25 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 06:49 PM

PHJim said: "While I don't correct incorrect spelling or grammar, I do notice it, but have come to accept it without dwelling on it. I still haven't gotten used to seeing, "I could care less," though."

Though you're OK with "haven't gotten". Heheh.
****************************************************************
According to The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, these are acceptable:

• Mikey always gets to pitch, but my son hasn't gotten to play at all.
• I don't know about that store -- I've never gotten anything there that really lasted.
• I'll start the report tomorrow; I haven't gotten the bills done yet.
One could also use got with the last one above (though not with the first two); however, it would have a slightly different sense, focussing on the resultant state, a paraphrase of
• I haven't got (= don't have) the bills in a finished state yet.
rather than the simple negation of the work with gotten.
*****************************************************************

This doesn't mean that I think that I am correct, but, Steve Shaw, could you please explain my error. I'm not sure I understand the proper distinction between got and gotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 05:25 PM

The very worst one is .....they're sat here, I'm sat here, you're sat here!.....Heard it today from a BBC reporter.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 04:22 PM

"Advanced booking" seems to be creeping in now instead of advance booking or advance sales. That would be in contradistinction to "elementary (or even intermediate) booking"?
Oh, and re my post above on 15th July: took delivery of the new Folk Festival brochure today, having not had anything to do with the production of it this year. The chairman confirmed that there had been the usual "3 pairs of eyes" checking it, but it still fell to the printer to point out a missed error on the first page!

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 05:05 PM

From DMG..."So I think you should never correct these slips unless people are demonstrably confused, and even then tact should be used. To take a specific example: on a recent thread someone referred to "a small majority" when they meant "a small minority". There was certainly scope for misunderstanding but everyone realised what was meant so it went uncorrected, and I think rightly so."

Well spotted sir! I hoped that no one had noticed.
Probably everyone noticed and showed the better spirit....Thanks all!!

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 04:46 PM

I've always understood hoi-polloi to mean the masses or the general public.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 11:56 AM

I've never heard or read of "hoi polloi" being used as anything but the common people, the lumpen masses.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 11:54 AM

Re-double our efforts!

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 05:21 AM

And what about "pre-ordering" and "pre-booking"?

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 03:26 AM

As far as the use of English is concerned,one thing that has annoyed me for a long time now is the term 'for free'.

Surely something is either 'free' or it is 'for nothing'.

However, I suspect that I might have to get used to what is now commonplace.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: GUEST,Musket reading
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 02:45 AM

Don't bother trying Doug. You'd have to get someone to read out to you the Secret Diaries books in order to understand.

It's just that some on Mudcat are intelligent and well read. I was aiming it at them, you dozy chuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 04:19 PM

If I was erudite, I might understand what Musket's reference to offal and Adrian Mole had to do with this thread. But then again, I'm easily confused.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 01:40 PM

I don't doubt you must have come across the term used that way Steve. But I suspect it's pretty unusual.

Actually the general use, with its sneering overtones, is a distortion in itself. All the Greek means is "the people" or "the majority", no implication of the contempt it has come to imply. A pretty despicable term these days really.

There was a Glasgow punk band called Oi Polloi, which I suppose constituted reclaiming it as an honourable label.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 12:40 PM

Wasn't it an offal restaurant Adrian Mole worked in?

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 12:36 PM

We're such an erudite bunch here. Yeah, that'll be it!

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 12:28 PM

I sometimes use "hoi polloi" in conversation and always in the sense of mixing with the masses/crowd/rank and file. It's not so commonly misused that I have ever heard it meaning the opposite until now.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 08:48 AM

If you look into it, Kevin, you'll see that it's commonly misused.

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 07:51 AM

I've never come across "hoi polloi" used in the sense Steve gives there, as meaning posh. Not that it's an expression that crops up that often in conversation. LOf course words do shift - at one time "snob" had more or less the same meaning as "common".

Subject: RE: BS: Etiquette ref. Poor spelling
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 08:39 PM

Will Fly.: We could add these to Orwell's 6 Rules:

• Verbs has to agree with their subjects.
• Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.
• And don't start a sentence with a conjunction.
• It is wrong to ever split an infinitive.
• Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.)
• Also, always avoid annoying alliteration.
• Be more or less specific.
• Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary.
• Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies.
• No sentence fragments.
• Contractions aren't necessary and shouldn't be used.
• Foreign words and phrases are not apropos.
• Do not be redundant; do not use more words than necessary; it's highly superfluous.
• One should NEVER generalise.
• Comparisons are as bad as clichés.
• Don't use no double negatives.
• Eschew ampersands & abbreviations, etc.
• One-word sentences? Eliminate.
• Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake.
• The passive voice is to be ignored.
• Eliminate commas, that are, not necessary. Parenthetical words however should be enclosed in commas.
• Never use a big word when a diminutive one would suffice.
• DO NOT use exclamation points and all caps to emphasise!!!
• Use words correctly, irregardless of how others use them.
• Understatement is always the absolute best way to put forth earth shaking ideas.
• Use the apostrophe in it's proper place and omit it when its not needed.
• Eliminate quotations. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know."
• If you've heard it once, you've heard it a thousand times: Resist hyperbole; not one writer in a million can use it correctly.
• Puns are for children, not groan readers.
• Go around the barn at high noon to avoid colloquialisms.
• Even IF a mixed metaphor sings, it should be derailed.
• Who needs rhetorical questions?
• Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement.
• The passive voice should never be used.
• Do not put statements in the negative form.
• Verbs have to agree with their subjects.
• A writer must not shift your point of view.
• Place pronouns as close as possible, especially in long sentences of 10 or more words, to their antecedents.
• Writing carefully, dangling participles must be avoided.
• If any word is improper at the end of a sentence, a linking verb is.
• Take the bull by the hand and avoid mixing metaphors.
• Avoid trendy locutions that sound flaky.
• Everyone should be careful to use a singular pronoun with singular nouns in their writing.
• Always pick on the correct idiom.
• The adverb always follows the verb.
• Be careful to use the rite homonym.
• Proofread carefully to see if you any words out.