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Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?

DigiTrad:
BO LAMKIN
FALSE LAMKIN
LAMKIN
LONG LANKIN
YOUNG ALANTHIA


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Long Lankin/Lord Lankin (37)
(origins) info req: Long lankin (18)
Lyr Req: Long Lankin (Bill Caddick) (13)
Penguin: Long Lankin (7)


Richie 12 Jul 15 - 02:05 PM
Mrrzy 12 Jul 15 - 02:13 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 15 - 02:41 PM
Richard Mellish 12 Jul 15 - 02:50 PM
Richie 12 Jul 15 - 03:28 PM
Mrrzy 12 Jul 15 - 07:16 PM
Phil Cooper 12 Jul 15 - 07:33 PM
Richie 12 Jul 15 - 11:40 PM
Richie 12 Jul 15 - 11:54 PM
Gutcher 13 Jul 15 - 09:34 AM
Richie 13 Jul 15 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,Gilly 13 Jul 15 - 11:12 AM
Richie 13 Jul 15 - 12:44 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Jul 15 - 01:12 PM
Gutcher 13 Jul 15 - 01:20 PM
Joe_F 13 Jul 15 - 01:56 PM
meself 13 Jul 15 - 03:27 PM
Richie 13 Jul 15 - 06:06 PM
GUEST 14 Jul 15 - 01:22 AM
Jim Brown 14 Jul 15 - 03:57 AM
Gutcher 14 Jul 15 - 05:09 AM
Roger the Skiffler 14 Jul 15 - 05:51 AM
Steve Gardham 14 Jul 15 - 01:18 PM
Paul Burke 14 Jul 15 - 03:59 PM
Richie 14 Jul 15 - 04:32 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Jul 15 - 03:35 PM
Jack Campin 15 Jul 15 - 03:59 PM
Gutcher 15 Jul 15 - 04:13 PM
Gutcher 15 Jul 15 - 04:32 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Jul 15 - 05:16 PM
michaelr 15 Jul 15 - 06:33 PM
Lighter 15 Jul 15 - 09:14 PM
michaelr 15 Jul 15 - 10:50 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Jul 15 - 11:20 AM
Gutcher 16 Jul 15 - 06:50 PM
Rumncoke 16 Jul 15 - 07:02 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 15 - 01:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jul 15 - 01:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jul 15 - 01:56 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Jul 15 - 02:53 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Jul 15 - 03:20 PM
Gutcher 18 Jul 15 - 07:54 AM
GUEST 18 Jul 15 - 03:02 PM
Joe_F 18 Jul 15 - 06:30 PM
Richie 19 Jul 15 - 08:17 AM
Richie 19 Jul 15 - 08:21 AM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 15 - 08:58 AM
GUEST 23 Jul 15 - 12:15 AM
Steve Gardham 23 Jul 15 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,leeneia 24 Jul 15 - 10:20 AM
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Subject: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 02:05 PM

Hi,

Why didn't Lamkin get paid? It may have been more than his name (see Child's comments) or the lord's paucity of funds. One reason may be found in Sharp E from Kentucky in 1917:

1. There was a wealthy merchant,
In London he dwelled;
He built a fine castle,
And paint he had none.

He forgot to paint the castle :)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 02:13 PM

Bol'Akins was a very fine mason as ever laid stone
He built a fine castle, but pay he got none

Hmmm

Did the paintless guy kill anyone over it?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 02:41 PM

Yawn, yawn, bloody yawn...

Are you entirely unaware of how many times this has been debated?

You are masively far from from being remotely original..


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 02:50 PM

Another rude "GUEST" comes along, not only failing to sign his/her name but also failing to engage brain and appreciate the point of Richie's posting. Should we spell it out for him/her? Nah, let's not bother.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 03:28 PM

Hi,

Guest, I agree that Lampkin is entirely overblown- and that nothing more could possibly be written about it.

Maybe their payment dispute was because Lampkin, in fact, was the former lover of the lord's wife:

"Ward Lampkin had been in love with the Landlady, before her marriage to the Lord, and had always sworn to get his revenge." [Davis B]

Or perhaps it was because he was the nurse's lover and the lord was tired of him hanging around flicking cigarettes in the moat :)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 07:16 PM

But what about the paint? Is the rest based on a mondegreen?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 07:33 PM

It could be the lord was "land rich" and didn't have the money he'd promised. I have heard of a lot of contract workers who have to jump through hoops to get paid from employers that have money.   I might be off base but, it's a thought.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 11:40 PM

Hi,

Mrry- The informant sang "paint" instead of "payment" so that's the mondegreen. The rest is just standard but I will post later. I just thought it was funny.

Phil- that's the reason Anna Brown gave in Child A:

1 IT'S Lamkin was a mason good
As ever built wi stane;
He built Lord Wearie's castle,
But payment got he nane.

2 'O pay me, Lord Wearie,
come, pay me my fee:'
'I canna pay you, Lamkin,
For I maun gang oer the sea.'

3 'O pay me now, Lord Wearie,
Come, pay me out o hand:'
'I canna pay you, Lamkin,
Unless I sell my land.'

4 'O gin ye winna pay me,
I here sall mak a vow,
Before that ye come hame again,
ye sall hae cause to rue.'

No other version has established Lamkin's motive for the brutal killings. however I believe she may have created the beginning to satisfy her need to a motive. In Adam Ganz's article 'Leaping broken narration': Ballads, Oral Storytelling and the Cinema, he analyzes the ballad narrative of Child A in a section entitled, Storytelling techniques in ballads- it can be read online!!!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 11:54 PM

Correction: No other version has established, so completely, Lamkin's motive for the brutal killings.

As for Lord Wearie snd his wife, Prime Castle in Balwearie,
and Lambert Linkin who was hung near Doune, I'm afraid we're no closer to figuring out the principles of this murder (and if it really took place) than Motherwell in 1827.

Maybe we should ask Charlie Manson? Wasn't he a ballad writer?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Gutcher
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:34 AM

How common would the name Lambkin, in its various spellings, have been in Britain up to say the end of the 14th. C. and what would have been the geographical distribution?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:06 AM

Hi,

In 1827 Motherwell suggested the murderous mason's name is Lambert Linkin in his Minstrelsy Ancient and Modern:

To some, the present set of the ballad may be valuable, as handing down both name and nickname of the revengeful builder of Prime Castle; for there can be little doubt that the epithet Linkin, Mr. Lambert acquired from the secrecy and address with which he insinuated himself into that notable strength. Indeed all the names of Lammerlinkin, Lnmmikin, Lamkin, Lankin, Linkin, Belinkin, can easily be traced out as abbreviations of Lambert Linkin. In the present set of the ballad, Lambert Linkin and Belinkin are used indifferently, as the measure of the verse may require; in the other recited copy, to which reference has been made, it is Lammerlinkin, and Lamkin; and the nobleman for whom he " built a house," is stated to be "Lord Arum." No allusion, however, is made here to the name of the owner of Prime Castle. Antiquaries, peradventure, may find it as difficult to settle the precise locality of this fortalice, as they have found it to fix the topography of Troy.
-------------

Here are notes from Lambkin: A Study in Evolution by Anne G. Gilchrist; Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 1, No. 1 (Dec., 1932), pp. 1-17

The above version was noted by Miss Minnie Kininmonth of Kinghorn (Fife), who had heard it "ranted" among the farm folk at Balwearie, where she spent much of her childhood. It first appeared in an MS. magazine "Pipers' News" in I9II, and was sent to the Rymour Club by Mrs. Jessie P. Findlay, one of the editors of the MS. magazine, which circulated in Kirkcaldy. Mrs. Findlay said that Lord Wearie was supposed to be one of the Balwearies of that ilk whose heiress carried the lands by marriage into the Scott family temp. Alexander III (1249- 1286) of Scotland. But as some doubt has been thrown upon the authenticity of this record (in Douglas's Baronetage), it would be idle to speculate whether the murder of an infant heir of the Wearie family in medizeval times might have created his sister an heiress. What is actually known of Balwearie Castle is that, as Mr. W. Mackay Mackenzie (author of The Medieval Castle in Scotland) informs me, it is a fifteenth-century tower, a license for its erection being issued to William Scott of Balwearie in February 1464. (The 'bal' of the name denotes a farmstead.) Whether any real connection with Balwearie existed or not, it seems probable that the ballad had a historical foundation; as far as I am aware it has no European counterpart.

Taking first the Scottish tradition, there is no need to suppose with Prof. Child that the name Lambkin was bestowed ironically. Lambkin (dim. of Lambert) is a Flemish name, constant, though sometimes in a corrupt form, such as Longkin or Dunkins or Rankin, in all of the many versions-about forty-of the ballad which I have seen. Bardsley in his English Surnames says: "Lambert received a large accession in England through the Flemings, who thus preserved a memorial of the patron of Liege, St. Lambert, who was martyred early in the eighth century. Succumbing to the fashion so prevalent among the Flemings, it is generally found as Lambkin, such entries as Lambekyn fil. Eli or Lambekin Taborer being common."
* * *
Lambert and Lambkin, Lampson and Lampkin survive as English surnames to the present day. Assuming a real event to have been the basis of this tragic and circumstantial story, the "mason guid" might well have been a Flemish craftsman. The Flemings were highly skilled workers, as is patent from the fact that Gresham imported Flemish masons and joiners, under the management of their master Hendryk, to build the Royal Exchange in 1566. Flemish as well as French influence may be seen in the old castles and churches of Fifeshire built or re-built in the sixteenth century. Along the east coast of Scotland were colonies of Flemings in the middle ages, there being a close connection between Scotch-grown wool and Flemish wool-merchants and weavers. "In many old and elaborate descriptions of architecture in England constant reference is made to the Flemings." James IV of Scotland employed Flemish craftsmen to plaster the walls and ceilings of his royal castles-gaunt and comfortless as they were for the reception of his "English rose," Margaret Tudor. Without elaborating the point further, the reader may be referred to Flemish Influence in Britain (1930) by J. Arnold Fleming. Though one cannot prove that Lambkin was a Flemish master-mason, this seems, assuming an historic foundation for the ballad, to be a reasonable possibility. And another is that he was neither called Lambkin because he was like or unlike a lamb but because it was his name. A third point is that if he was a "furriner," it would then as now be considered less of a crime to cheat him.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: GUEST,Gilly
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:12 AM

Anyone heard Bill Caddick's version which tells the story from Lankin's p.o.v. ?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 12:44 PM

Can you post it?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 01:12 PM

Thank you Richie.

Gillie, I would also like to see/hear Bill Caddick's version.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Gutcher
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 01:20 PM

The original name of the Loudon's' of that Ilk was Lambkin. The last male representative of the Loudon's was yeclept Lambkin Loudon whose heiress was married to a Crawford in 1200, another authority states 1212. When surnames came into general use in Scotland at the end of the 11th. C. many land owners assumed the name of their lands, Loudon Hill being a volcanic plug which is visible for a great distance in Ayrshire, Ailsa Craig in the Firth of Clyde being another.

In another thread on this forum I pointed out that there was a local Ayrshire connection to the ballad 'Barbara Allan', could the Ayrshire connection have a much older folk memory attached to it.

In one version of the ballad 'Captain Carr' we have a definite placing of the ballad in the same area with Anderson stating that the home of the Loudon family, by that time by marriage Campbell, Auchruglen Castle, was burned by the Kennedy's of Bargainy in the 14th. C. resulting, as the ballad tells us, in the death of Lady Loudon and her nine children.

All conjecture on my part of course but does it not give food for thought that Skerrington could be Scarlet Town and London a misreading or mishearing for Loudon, this, with the addition of Auchruglen Castle and Lambkin to an area of some five miles radius is surely more than a coincidence.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Joe_F
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 01:56 PM

I gather that the nobility in those days were rather lax about paying debts (other than gambling debts). In a situation like the one described, it was obviously impossible to sue. There was nothing for it but to kill the man's wife & child.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: meself
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 03:27 PM

I wonder if that Irish melodeon player would have a theory?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:06 PM

Here's another excerpt: The Name "Lamkin" by Albert B. Friedman
The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 90, No. 358 (Oct. - Dec., 1977), pp. 465-466

Now that Niles has raised the issue as to the Flemishness of Lamkin, in fairness to the Gilchrist hypothesis, I should do so. As she failed to realize, the Flemish quality of the name is much more in the -kin than in the Lam-, the connection with St. Lambert. For though Niles finds only one Lambert, we do find in the versions, beside the obvious variants like Lankin, Lambert Linkin and Lampkin, such names as Bold Dunkins where the -kin is determinative.[2] Wileken appears to have been a derisive nickname for a Fleming in a versicle of "black" propaganda against the Flemings reported by the chronicler Matthew Paris about 1250.[3] Ewen observes that -kyn is a common suffix in the personal and surnames of wool mongers from Flanders. Names of this kind in the index to the Hundred Roll "preponderate in the South and East, being those counties most convenient for trading and communication with the Low Countries." The use of-kyn as a diminutive suffix in native English personal names, Ewen believes, was probably imported from Holland and Flanders in the twelfth century, although it had occurred sporadically in personal names even in "pre-Conquest days."[4] Bardsley likewise attributes the increasing commonness of this diminutive in personal names from the twelfth to fourteenth centuries to "incomers from Brabant and Flanders."[5] Thus any likely name in -kin connoted a person of Flemish origin and was therefore an appropriate nickname in a ballad or satire villifying a Fleming.

Certainly names in -kin were employed in this way in the sixteenth century. A satire against the Flemish knights who attended Anne of Cleves on her journey to London has a chorus which begins, "Hoyda, hoyda, jolly Rutterkin!,"[6] a taunt echoed in Skelton's Magnificence.[7] In his "Why Come Ye Not to Court?" he labels the Flemish "Flanderkyns" (1. 922). The clown Frisco in William Haughton's Englishmen for My Money (1598) says that the best way to speak perfect Dutch (Flemish and Dutch are synonymous for the Elizabethans) is to get one's mouth full of food first and then "brumble it forth full-mouth, as 'Haunce Butterkin slowpin frokin' " (I, i). There are also characteristic -kin words in Lacy's Flemish drinking song in Dekker's Shoemaker's Holiday (II, iii).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 01:22 AM

I invite Mudcatters to read the paper Rika and I did a few years back for other theories, etc. It's http://jonandrika.org/articles/lamkin-terror-of-nurseries/

Jon Bartlett


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Jim Brown
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:57 AM

> the reader may be referred to Flemish Influence in Britain (1930) by J. Arnold Fleming

I wonder what attracted him to his subject...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Gutcher
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:09 AM

As Steve says we may never know but it is an interesting speculation to make that in the very heart of the area where BURNS produced some of his finest works there was, some 300 plus years prior to his time, an unknown MAKAR producing works of enduring interest.

Anent the Flemings, this very area became known worldwide for its woven products and the last lace-weaving firm in the country was still producing what are now top of the range luxury items.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:51 AM

Because he worked for the BBC

RtS


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 01:18 PM

>>>>>>in the very heart of the area where BURNS produced some of his finest works there was, some 300 plus years prior to his time, an unknown MAKAR producing works of enduring interest.

Hi, Joe.
Could you please put a little meat on the bones of this statement?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:59 PM

It's common even - especially- nowadays to get work done or goods supplied without any intention of paying for it. Simple. Set up a limited company, get what you want on credit, go bankrupt, buy the assets off the receiver for a song, recycle indefinitely. It's happened to me, to the tune of 40000 pounds at the time when that would have bought a moderate house. More fool me, and it never even occurred to me to bleed his children to death.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:32 PM

Jon Bartlett- I did read your article, in fact it's on my sire :), along with a dozen others :) I liked the psychological insights from that article I've surmised three main emotional forces:

1) The lord's abandonment of his lady, her abandoning her baby 2) his guilt for not paying the mason, his guilt as leaving her unprotected; her guilt about leaving her baby unprotected and 3) his fear of retribution, her fear of death; the fear generated by Lamkin and the nurse.

I recommend you read Adam Ganz's article 'Leaping broken narration': Ballads, Oral Storytelling and the Cinema. Do you agree with these three or are there more?

Jim Brown- Does this mean you are writing an article about colors? :)

Gutcher- Only you could find Lambkins grave. And where was that again?
Turn right at Prime Castle, . . .

* * *

Anyone who would build a whole castle without getting paid anything deserves to die!!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 03:35 PM

Richie,
In the borders 'castles' can vary in size from a simple pele tower of about 3 storeys (which is probably what is being described here) to the enormous Bamburgh Castle built on a coastal promontory.

Whilst a pele tower was easy to defend against marauders in a hurry the most effective way to attack the occupants was to pile up combustibles around the smaller bottom storey and simply cook the occupants if the smoke didn't choke them first.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 03:59 PM

I have a 19th century copy of the ballad somewhere which names him as Rankin.

His namesake could probably get a book out of it. A council construction corruption scandal in Edinburgh led to a couple of guys getting jailed about a month ago. And we get as many child murders as anywhere. Rebus is always finding things like that are connected.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Gutcher
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:13 PM

The Lambkins aka Loudons, Crawfords and Campbells all resided in Auchruglan Castle before that edifice was reduced to a ruin in the 14th. C.. The reason for the feud between the Kennedys and the Loudons [so called by title and not by family name] was that the latter both Crawfords and Campbells were Sheriffs of Ayr, now Ayrshire, Shire being derived from Sheriff, an honour that the Kennedys, as one of the oldest indigenous families in what became Ayrshire claimed should be theirs.

The Campbell, Sheriff of Ayr and Earl of Loudon, highest dignitary in the County/Shire understandably abandoned the site at Auchruglen and built what was the first Castle of Loudon on the opposite side of the river Irvine. This would no doubt be the finest Castle in those parts and dare I say it would be counted the Prime castle of any in those parts.
If anyone can produce a better explanation for the name let's have it.
As regards the grave of Lambkin, my copy of the ballad states he was wrapped in lead and melted as was a Lord Soulis in the borders.

Finding a date for the burning of Auchruglen Castle in the 14th. C. is proving to be a bit of a strain on my eyesight as some of the tomes being consulted have rather small print.

There are no Lambkins in the local telephone directory, plenty of Lambs with a not inconsiderable no. of Norman French Agnews.

Honest labour to obtain a living is no disgrace, even for one having aristocratic connections and indeed one of our Scots Earls had a glovers business in Edinburgh and after making and supplying his peers with the gloves which were part of the dress code at the time he would appear with them and cast his vote as a Peer of the Realm.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Gutcher
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:32 PM

Sorry---having read Jacks comment I have taken a look at my copy of the ballad and the name is indeed Rankin, a name well known in the area forming the subject of my posts.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 05:16 PM

Hi Joe,
Whilst I appreciate your valuable research, I would need a lot more concrete evidence to tie any of these ballads (excepting Captain Carr) to your local area.

Regarding Lamkin I am personally quite happy with the Flemish connections suggested here and any attempt to attach it to an actual event would be very tenuous.

Personal names and placenames in ballads can be notoriously fickle particularly after the antiquarians have been at them.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 06:33 PM

The use of -kin as a diminutive suffix makes sense; in German it's -chen, in Dutch -ken (Heineken = little Henry).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 09:14 PM

Occasionally in English too.

Mannikin, pannikin, little Peterkin.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 10:50 PM

Mannequin - a little man?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 11:20 AM

Villikin: Little Willie
There are also many that have gone out of general usage that survive in surnames like Wilkinson, Tomkinson, Parkinson (Perkin), Jenkinson, Hodgkinson, Dickinson.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Gutcher
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 06:50 PM

Steve.
In the ballad of Barbara Allan, Ayrshire version, do you or others not find traces of an older ballad? I have pointed out local features in previous posts which would fit a version for this area

Captain Carr, it must be now accepted, is localized for the same area and if a 14th.C. date can be established for the burning of Lady Loudon and her nine children this would pre-date the burning of the house of Towie in 1571 by Edom o Gordon or Captain Carr
This does not of course mean that the Ayrshire ballad was composed before Edom o Gordon but having the name Captain Carr included in the latter must surely give the ballad experts food for thought.

Lambkin--when did the name die out in the Loudon area, it certainly would not have died out with the principle land owner when the lands passed to an heiress if other families are any guide.
The first castle of Loudon, so called, given the status of the owners, would be considered the prime castle in the area.

On the whole I would say that Lambkin would be the least likely of the three to give the experts cause to revisit it to pin down a locale.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 07:02 PM

Grandma used to call mice mousikins - I still do at home. She made bootikins for babies and coddled eggs in a set of pottikins.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 01:37 AM

"fickle particularly after the antiquarians have been at them."
Was there nobody hoest or reliable back then?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 01:52 PM

Why should there be any question of honesty or dishonesty in how people remember deatils like that, even when thir memory is affected by stuff they've heard or read or been told?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 01:56 PM

There are parallels with the story of the Pied Peper - pay up for services you've purchased, or something pretty nasty might happen to the people you love.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 02:53 PM

Jim,
Joseph Ritson, Frederick Furnivall, William Chappell, Robert Chambers, not many admittedly. Dishonesty seems to have been the norm. Pretty much like today really (speaking generally, not necessarily re antiquarians)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Jul 15 - 03:20 PM

>>>>>>>On the whole I would say that Lambkin would be the least likely of the three to give the experts cause to revisit it to pin down a locale.

Joe
I certainly agree with this.

Which Ayrshire version of BA are we looking at?

Could you please have a look at my posting 14th July 1.18 pm?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Gutcher
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 07:54 AM

hello Steve.
As a self taught user of this machine I am not able to bring up the thread which gives the various readings of B.A. having posted as a guest on that thread, I would now need to refresh my memory on the subject.
I am just about to set of to visit a sister in that area and this brought to my mind that a native of the area who broadcasts on historical subjects of a later period [18th. C. plus] may be able to help with the dating question for the 14th. C.. I will email him to see if he can point me to a source where the information can be accessed.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 03:02 PM

As I recall, the earliest version in print was in the 1780s in Kent - with no mention of the non-payment. My suspicion (see my article above) is that the payment question was added by a type of singer that Eleanor Long,the ballad scholar, called a "rationalizer". Here is a horrible bunch of murders - we need to know why. Because....

There are lots of examples in today's political world of people constructing what might be rational reasons for seemingly irrational acts.

Jon Bartlett


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Joe_F
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 06:30 PM

"Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing animal." -- Robert A. Heinlein


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 08:17 AM

Jon-

I assume you are referring to Anna Brown, informant of Child A.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 08:21 AM

Steve, Jim-

You can be honest and with scanty evidence reach erroneous conclusions. Chappell, for one, seemed incline to do this.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 08:58 AM

Absolutely, Richie.
We have to take into account that some of these antiquarians were pioneers in the field and they had nowhere near as much information to hand as we have.

Without naming any names even modern day professors can get somewhat carried away with their theories.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 12:15 AM

Annie Brown would be one of the usual suspects, yes. Didn't she also provide the "sic counsels ye gie to me" verse in EDWARD/

Jon Bartlett


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 02:59 PM

I wasn't aware of any connection between 'Mrs Brown' and 'Edward', Jon. Where does this come from?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Why didn't Lamkin get paid?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 10:20 AM

Stiffing contractors is a way of life for some people. We just had some iron railings installed by a man who told about customers who were on the phone everyday, demanding that their expensive job be done. Then when the work was done, they blocked his calls.

Me, I would leave the last two pieces off until I got paid.

I know a harper who does a lot of weddings, and she tells the family, "When I get my check, I will start playing."

You'd think that in this day and age, the father of the bride would realize that it's bad, bad karma to cheat the harper at your daughter's wedding.


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