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BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Raggytash Date: 02 Sep 15 - 09:10 AM Time to turn to the weather as you so rightly say Dave. Is the weather for Skipton the one for you. If so today will be sun and clouds with a shower a high of 60 and a low of 42. Tomorrow will be mainly cloudy with a shower a high of 55 and a low of 44. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Sep 15 - 08:49 AM Always come down to narky arguments about trifling points of history doesn't it. Is it any wonder people try to change the subject? What is the weather going in North Yorkshire to be like over the next 2 and a half weeks? We are holidaying at home with American friends. Hope to sample some good beers as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Sep 15 - 08:35 AM Keith - if you are suggesting the Irish Civil War was was not fought on the basis of loosing six counties - forced by Brita at gunpoint I am suggesting nothing, but the greatest authority in the world on the history of Irish independence contradicts your view. I believe him, not you. On the famine, I merely pointed out that your view is disputed by most historians, which is a fact. On the Ukrainian famine, I showed that Stalin is known to have deliberately created it as an act of genocide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Raggytash Date: 02 Sep 15 - 07:24 AM MGM " Stop telling people to stop things, Jim. You have no authority to do so -- & it's boring" Is this not the kettle calling the pot black? Not for the first time Michael you are doing something that you criticise in others. Hardly seems fair really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Sep 15 - 07:17 AM "Stop telling people to stop things, Jim" Virtually everybody has told Keith to stop - on this, on the Famine, on World War One, on Ukraine, on his "real historians in real bookshops". Unfortunately, none of us have the authority to actually stop him (and those that do seem quite happy to allow him to behave the way he does), but we do have a right to expect to carry on an intelligent discussion without a destructive, hyperactive child nausing it up. What is boring is your describing as "boring" everything you can't hack - also notable is your tendency to let somebody take the flack for your inability - rather like your officers who were happy to let the cannon fodder go over the top. You want to take part - feel free, otherwise, mind your own business and get on with your whiskey and soda. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 02 Sep 15 - 06:01 AM Stop telling people to stop things, Jim. You have no authority to do so -- & it's boring. ❧☺❦ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Sep 15 - 05:19 AM Keith - if you are suggesting the Irish Civil War was was not fought on the basis of loosing six counties - forced by Brita at gunpoint You are out of your mind Stop this now Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Sep 15 - 04:13 AM "Renowned Irish historian Professor Michael Laffan introduces his series of 10 lectures on The Irish Revolution. He talks about the history of the course, its structure as well as some of the key areas covered in the lectures. Since it was first made available to podcast on History Hub in 2012, Professor Laffan's highly engaging series has proven to be tremendously popular with academic and public audiences alike. For people interested in learning about this tumultuous period in Irish history the good news is that the series is now more accessible than ever. The Irish Revolution was a module taught by Professor Laffan in the School of History and Archives, University College Dublin from the late 1970′s until his retirement in 2010." http://historyhub.ie/theirishrevolution |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Sep 15 - 04:08 AM Keith, you've admitted multiple times that you know jack shit about Irish history. That is true, but "renowned Irish historian Professor Michael Laffan," head of the School of History in University College, Dublin knows more about it than all of us put together, and he contradicts what Jim just claimed. I believe him over Jim. No brainer. Just like you want to do with the folks in Calis - unless, that is, you'd prefer just machine-gunning 'em, eh Professor? That is a vile accusation against me and completely untrue. If anyone makes it to Britain, even if illegally, they are allowed to remain as long as it takes to establish if they are refugees and entitled to stay. Illegals arriving from Calais are booked into hotels. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Sep 15 - 07:54 PM "Michael Laffan, head of the School of History in University Colleg" Oh, for Christ's sake!! Leave it Keith - you have now humiliated yourself beyond redemption. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Greg F. Date: 01 Sep 15 - 06:13 PM Keith, you've admitted multiple times that you know jack shit about Irish history. Put an effing sock in it, will ya? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Greg F. Date: 01 Sep 15 - 06:02 PM If you arrive in US without a visa or ESTA you get sent back at the airline's expense to wherever you came from Just like you want to do with the folks in Calis - unless, that is, you'd prefer just machine-gunning 'em, eh Professor? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 15 - 03:42 PM Does US ever take in refugees? If you arrive in US without a visa or ESTA you get sent back at the airline's expense to wherever you came from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 15 - 03:37 PM Not true Jim. Michael Laffan, head of the School of History in University College Dublin writing in "History Ireland." http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-emergence-of-the-two-irelands-1912-25/ "it was agreed that a boundary commission would decide the border between the two parts of Ireland. It is significant that the treaty split centred on questions of sovereignty and the oath of fidelity ('allegiance') to the king rather than on the question of partition.Few Dáil deputies discussed the matter." That split became the civil war, and it was not about partition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 01 Sep 15 - 03:29 PM I don't if this has been mentioned before, but I don't why the EU isn't asking the USA to start taking in some - most? - of these refugees, because American involvement in the Middle-East, Afghanistan, Lybia... has a lot to do with the present refugee crisis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Sep 15 - 02:58 PM "At that time, partition was already agreed." Partition was agreed under duress - you've had the statement It was that whiocch caused the Civil War which was been the Free State forces which supported accepting the agreement on the understanding that the six states could be won later and the Republicans, who wished to continue fighting The Free State accepted that partitioning had only been accepted under threat of war - they even accepted that The British Government had blackmailed Collins into acceptance via his affair with the American, Lady Lavery. We really are done with this Keith - you denied any threats were made, you've said Lloyd George's statement was a fake (disproved by Terrytoon); you've said he was referring to something else entirely - now you seem to want another go at something else. Sorry - for you the war is over Tommy. Go and find something else to obsess about. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Sep 15 - 02:32 PM Camerons Strongarm always used to cause an outbreak of 'Whitby Ring of Fire' around Monday of folk week. Only lasted a few hours but a surprising number of people suffered with it. Ask Ged as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Greg F. Date: 01 Sep 15 - 02:28 PM I would suggest that unless, or until, you have at least read a few books on the subject you refrain from commenting. Good luck with that, Raggy - its the blind leading himself. Again. As usual. Per omnia secula seculorum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Raggytash Date: 01 Sep 15 - 02:20 PM Tonight I will be back on the Guinness, although I am led to believe the Camerons Strongarm in the Elsinore is excellent. I will be taking along a bottle of Red Fox's Coggeshall Beast to share with the landlord. It's the 666th gyle and is made to tip the scales at 6.66% ABV. I've tried it and it is deceptively quaffable. Hic !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 15 - 02:19 PM I made a slight error anyway. The treaty was supported by narrow majorities in the Irish cabinet and the Dáil, not actually rejected as I said. Clearly not concerned much about supposed threats though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Sep 15 - 02:09 PM ...and what better way of celebrating hitting the 100 mark than a pleasant diversion to the Top 100 beers. :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Sep 15 - 02:00 PM I really enjoyed my first pint last weekend. Taylor's Landlord. Forgotten how good it was. I don't think there is an accurate historical account of how good it was apart from this one though. Probably not a consensus... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 15 - 01:55 PM My last was to Dave. Rag, if I have got anything wrong, please correct me. If I have given an accurate historical account, what is your objection? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 15 - 01:53 PM Not by interminable beer anecdotes this time though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Raggytash Date: 01 Sep 15 - 01:53 PM Keith, You have already told everybody that you have not read at all on the subject of Irish History. You have clearly indicated you have no interest in the subject. Taking sound-bites off internet websites is NOT going to give you an insight into the subject. I would suggest that unless, or until, you have at least read a few books on the subject you refrain from commenting. You will notice, I hope, that I am trying to be polite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Sep 15 - 01:48 PM Another thread completely fucked I see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 15 - 01:46 PM Britain forced a treaty under threat of war imposing a partitioned Ireland - sign in three days or it's war' No it did not, and the treaty you refer to was rejected by the Cabinet and then by the Dail anyway. At that time, partition was already agreed. Part of the treaty was about setting up a boundary commission to decide the border. None of it was about imposing a partition, or anything else to do with partition. The civil war was an entirely Irish thing. Britain is not really to blame for all Ireland's problems Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Sep 15 - 01:39 PM "And do you really imagine your brand of old-fashioned do·gooding left·wingery represents the oh-so-happening present and the bright-and-shining future?" Do-goodery - lovely, right-wing phrase - the opposite of which is do baddery, as far as I'm concerned Whatever it represents - (me, I suppose) it isn't yearning after a time when we could hang and beat those who offended us and the natives knew their place I know (approx) when you were born - I also am aware that you still adhere to the values of that time - most of us have moved on Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Greg F. Date: 01 Sep 15 - 01:30 PM I was, after all, born in the reign of George V and lived thru the excitement of the Abdication crisis and the whole of WWii... Ah! Well, that explains a great deal....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Greg F. Date: 01 Sep 15 - 12:58 PM I could ask what the Belgians in the Congo had to do with the 3rd Reich You could,EmGee, and you have!- which is simply one more example of your pretended (or is it real?) ignorance. Just because Leopold didn't build gas chambers doesn't mean he wasn't responsible for genocide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Sep 15 - 12:46 PM "Anachronism" am I, eh Jim? And do you really imagine your brand of old-fashioned do·gooding left·wingery represents the oh-so-happening present and the bright-and-shining future? You've been looking at too many of those idealistic uplift sites, my dear old friend, where the young couple with the hammer'n'sickle embroidered underwear stand among the heaped yellow cornstooks and gaze so confidently into the effulgent dawn. A bit of a yesterday's image, it seems to me. But that's no doubt because I'm an anachronism. I was, after all, born in the reign of George V and lived thru the excitement of the Abdication crisis and the whole of WWii... So what can I know of the present world! ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Sep 15 - 11:16 AM "How was Britain to blame for your civil war Jim?" My Civil War? You're at it again, you little snurge - I was born in Britain of British parents and hold a British passport When will you little Englanders stop? Britain forced a treaty under threat of war imposing a partitioned Ireland - sign in three days or it's war' That is not a historical analysis of what happened - you have been given Lloyd George's exact quote verbatim sign or war. That not only cause the Civil War that was to follow, but it was the direct cause of Catholic persecution in the Six Counties and and nearly a century of ongoing bloodshed, which. Even now, the peace process is in jeopardy - that's how the Empire worked, even after it had been kicked out - divide and rule. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: GUEST, ^*^ Date: 01 Sep 15 - 09:45 AM Follow the map progression here: http://www.the-map-as-history.com/maps/2-history-middle-east-ottoman.php |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: GUEST, ^*^ Date: 01 Sep 15 - 09:41 AM The Empire struck - back in WWI. Why border lines drawn with a ruler in WWI still rock the Middle East From BBC News, Dec. 2013 A map marked with crude chinagraph-pencil in the second decade of the 20th Century shows the ambition - and folly - of the 100-year old British-French plan that helped create the modern-day Middle East. Read the rest by following the link. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 15 - 09:14 AM How was Britain to blame for your civil war Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:48 AM "mind-made-up" You seem not to have noticed, but everybody's mind is made up on the Empire Mike, even the old colonel sitting in his deckchair with his whiskey and soda, dreaming of the Imperial glory days and yearning for the chukka to pull of his boots and service the memsahib when the going gets tough - is dead and gone now, nevermore to return. You really are an anachronism, Mike. The Empire is a part of Britain's chequered past - all we have left are the trails of wreckage we left in our wake. Britain is committed to dealing with these refugees on several levels: For the part is has played in making their home countries what they are. For the damage still being caused by unethical trading, arms sales and the support given to dictators and mass murderers: the agreement with reached with the E.U. on open borders: and then, of course, there's the moral duty to assist people when they are in trouble. I wonder what would have happened if the post war British Government had treated Holocaust survivors in the way these people are being treated - shutting them out and treating them as criminals, scroungers and potential terrorists. It doesn't bear thinking about. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:20 AM Hmmm -- see what you mean, Raggy; but that wasn't the bit Jim chose to quote & denounce, was it? And it might have been an itty-bitty sarcastic, but hardly a 'name' like "Droopydrawers" or "Lollylegz". Still -- we thank you for your interest... ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:11 AM MGM what is "Carroll the Infallible" if not name calling. Please enlighten me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:07 AM Your "schoolyard behaviour" not that much removed from my "mind-made-up" as abusive rather than argumentative comment, Jim. Tho, as for "name-calling", I can't find a single 'name' of any sort in my post. So yahsuxbu·right·back·2U, with lotza brassnobson! Best regards as ever ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Sep 15 - 07:55 AM May I suggest that those who derided my earlier comment about dehumanising people by giving them the 'migrant' label read this article. Glad it is not just me thinks this way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Sep 15 - 05:21 AM "The Migration crisis is new." It's very much a part of the state of countries when the Empires pulled out (not just the British Empire. It is also a consequence of the continued support for despotic regimes and our continued poncing off impoverished countries by supporting virtual slave labour. We owe them - no "ask" - a debt. "Mind made up, do not confuse with facts please" Name calling again Mike - respond to the points rather than reverting to your now well-known schoolyard behaviour - yah boo, sucks to you too Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 15 - 04:49 AM The Empire is long gone. The Migration crisis is new. You can not blame the Empire for every problem in the world for ever more, but Jim will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Sep 15 - 04:42 AM Must congratulate on your last post, Jim. One of the best examples of the old "Mind made up, do not confuse with facts please" syndrome I have ever come across. Of course you know Sierra Leone's biz much better than the faculty of its national university -- coz you are Carroll·the·Infallible, innit! Teeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee············ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Sep 15 - 04:27 AM "would you get the point if I did [avoid obscenity], MGM?" .,,. Much better, in fact, Raed -- f's & c's & such are always a turnoff to me, inevitably distracting from whatever may be the perpetrator's actual point. I vowed 4 years ago to forswear them entirely in my own posts, in which you will nowadays never find such; and I feel my points are the better made without their aid, whatever may be the view of your fastidious self as to their efficacy. Regards ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Sep 15 - 04:12 AM I could ask what the Belgians in the Congo had to do with the 3rd Reich, if I thought that Greg, as the incomparable Jane Austen put it, deserved rational opposition. But as I don't, I won't. So commune with yourself, Gee Eff, and much good may it do you! Tara ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Sep 15 - 03:42 AM "But our academic colleagues could." How could - or how dare any group academics or otherwise, of people speak on behalf of an entire nation - ? Sure - some people supported the Empire, some people did well under it (others came away with Stockholm Syndrome) - nobody in their right mind can claim that any nation benefited by being ruled by another, culturally or economically. Empires were based on suppression and exploitation - none more so than The British Empires. These nations made their voice known by demanding independence, and more often than not, those voices were suppressed by military force until they became so loud, they had to be listened to. The detrimental effects of empire are written into the history books - ten million dead Congolese and countless maimings in the pursuit of rubber for 'Gallant Little Belgium, one million dead and an equal number forced to emigrate (and a legacy of an economy based on permanent immigration) in Ireland, Palestine, India/Pakistan..... and many other examples they are the scars left by Empire. It is simple robbery to take the national wealth of a country and use it to empower and enrich another, and it is gross, cultural arrogance to impose one culture on another - that is what Empire is about. The Empire idea is as dead as Capital Punishment (another of your fond memories), but its memory lingers on in the form of civil wars, national poverty and oppression brought about by what and who it left behind. When Britain pulled out of the 26 counties of Ireland, they immediately left a bloody civil war in the South and nearly a century of violence and cultural, political and economic inequality in the six counties they hung on to. In Africa and Asia, they left similar examples of bloodshed, and economies based on near slavery exploitation which still fills British shops like Primark with sweat-labour produced cheap goods. We have spent a long time here recording people, not just singing, but talking about their lives under the period following British rule - in this area in particular, though most have a fondness of and respect for the British people, there is virtually none for the good old days of British rule, only memories of The Black and Tans, or the Rineen ambush, or the sacking of Miltown Malbay, Lahinch and Ennistymon, or the Famine memories - that is their fondness for Empire, whatever your Sierra Leonese academic friends might have told you. JIm Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: GUEST,Mrzy Date: 01 Sep 15 - 03:24 AM Si on fait un camp de 3000 ils seront 5000 On ne s'en sortira que de deux manières En expulsant ... Difficile et inefficace En développant les pays d'où ils viennent ... Long mais en attendant Ou alors en les laissant librement partir en Angleterre |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Greg F. Date: 31 Aug 15 - 05:34 PM Hey, EmGeeEm - Fuck Godwin. The analogy IS apt- apparently you have no knowledge of what Leopold did in the Congo. Or you just choose to ignore it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: Raedwulf Date: 31 Aug 15 - 05:24 PM And would you get the point if I did, MGM? No, of course you wouldn't. Like too many of the frequent posters on this forum, you'd pretend that you weren't one of the people that the remark was pointed at. Don't get prissy about a couple of less than polite words just because they're pointed in your (amongst others) direction. You're one of those I sometimes agree with, sometimes disagree with, and yes, those words *were* pointed at you (amongst others). It annoys the fuck (yes, that word again) out of me sometimes that people like you who CAN get their point across without talking crap (yes, that word again) won't do so. I may be pathetic, I may be just frustrated, but whatever I am, I suggest you reconsider your 03:53PM post. Chuck around whatever labels you like, but it was rather less clever than mine. And no, "Third Reich" wasn't exactly intelligent either. There's too many intelligent & decent folk on here who can't manage to rein in their emotions enough to see past labels & actually LISTEN to each other. That's one of the few things in the world that really pisses me off... :-/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why? From: MGM·Lion Date: 31 Aug 15 - 04:11 PM And why, Raedwulf, can't you make a point without 'fucks' & 'craps'? Pathetic! |