BS: should UK leave the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 08:03 AM

Farage is a populist twanker, he is a political bankrupt.H

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 08:59 AM

Farage...thats a foreign name.

he's been snuck in by the enemies of the state .....probably under a lorry full of shite in Calais. they wouldn't notice an extra little lump of shite under the back axle.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:09 AM

Don't panic lads, only joking about PM.......but he WAS bang on about the EU and immigration.   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:12 AM

IT AINT ENGLISH ANYWAY, its SCOTTISH OR IRISH, send him back to where he came from,damn foreigner.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: banjoman
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:21 AM

I think we should look at the history of Europe. Both France and Germany have been trying to dominate Europe for a long time by military means (Napoleon/Hitler to name but two.)
Having those ideas of supremacy scotched, they now seek to achieve domination by political means (The common market/ EU ) They see the UK as a thorn in their side and pay little or no heed to our well being as a nation. The are happy to take 230 million pounds per day from us. Do we get that back in any form?
There may be some benefits of membership but they are far outweighed by the cost to us.
The sooner we get out the better. It may be difficult but worth the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:04 AM

That is a very skewed view. The fact that we are a part of a very large trading bloc means economies of scale. Can you put a figure to that? Our net contribution (part of the deal is that the richest countries contribute the most) helps to improve the market in the poorer parts of Europe, which works to our benefit as well. How do you cost that? We can trade freely without tariffs. That would no longer be the case if we left, and we would no longer have any say in EU fiscal policies even though they would still affect us. It would cost us dear in terms of making our import-export trade with the EU far more expensive. The non-payment of tariffs must be factored in as a counter to your figure. The daily-money-down-the-drain UKIP argument is completely simplistic and fallacious. I'm a bloody long way from being an expert on these things, and I'm no defender of the EU's more egregious imbalances (I mean, what a profound mistake the euro was), but this much I think I sort of know. It's easy, and just a little facile, to quote the uncomplicated part, our daily/weekly/annual net money contribution, whilst ignoring those benefits to us that are a lot harder to put numbers to and that the ukippers hope we won't notice.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:07 AM

...but what have the Romans ever done for us?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 09:05 AM

"...but what have the Romans ever done for us?"

They showed the early Britons how to cultivate cider apples more effectively... 👍🏾

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,PB At Work
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 10:10 AM

No

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:06 PM

why didn't the euro work?

I thought it was a great idea. i was sorry we didn't join.

but apparently we would all be skint if we had joined.

if a good idea like that doesn't work. how can it be any good?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 05:56 PM

The inability to float of each Eurozone nation's currency puts incredible strains on the countries with weaker economies. There is no scope for devaluation or revaluation, either gradual or sudden. Two years ago I was getting a euro for a quid for my holidays. This year I got €1.40. I could have got that regardless of which Eurozone country I visited. That covered Germany, almost as strong an economy as you could wish to have, and Greece, a bloody basket case. That just doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:02 PM

wasn't the idea that we were all going to help each others economy out. so we'd be one big strong currency.

i still don't see why it didn't work. there are bits of the USA   where the economy ain't what it should be, but the dollar sort of protects them all. because everyone trusts dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:47 PM

I wouldn't particularly argue that all parts of the US are in equally hunkydory financial condition. But there is far closer political union than in Europe (ask the Greeks) and a sort of national overall economic plan for the whole nation.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:51 AM

seen the grand old flag thread - doesn't seem particularly close politically.

in fact one lot spend all their time getting armed in case the other lot get too lippy.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:43 AM

I really don't know. I am in favour of the Common Market, and the idea of Europe all working together rather than fighting one another (although some claim that NATO has played the bigger part in that).

However the EU as an institution doesn't work, and as it gets bigger it becomes even more bureaucratic and unwieldy. It takes ages to make decisions and even when it recognises it has made a mistake it cannot easily undo it (as the VATMOSS muddle shows). It appears to be ruled by an unelected and unaccountable elite.

The euro was never going to work - it was brought in for political rather than economic reasons, but without centralised controls sooner or later it was bound to hit problems. However does anyone anywhere really want "ever closer union", apart from the politicians and bureaucrats who want to extend their power? Certainly not without a radical reform of how it is electorally accountable to the people of Europe.

The problem with the referendum is that unless the government is able to successfully renegotiate our relationship with the EU we may be asked to vote for a pig in a poke.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 07:32 AM

Can anyone actually demonstrate to me that we are undergoing "ever-closer union"? Seems to me that there are plenty enough squabbles about contributions, migrants, borders, Greece, etc., that, if anything, are keeping EU countries more at arms length from each other. I am having this suspicion that "ever-closer union" is becoming one of those politically-useful but vacuous phrases such as "hard-working families", "benefits lifestyle", "people who do the right thing", "giving parents choices", "United States of Europe", etc. Every time I hear one of these, or any of several others, it sets my sceptic's antennae atwitching.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 07:39 AM

good point(s) steve. see also 'the EU costs the UK £x billion a day' where 'x' means make up your own number then double it - or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 08:33 AM

Maybe not Steve but "ever closer union" is the declared objective of the EU. The euro was intended to be a significant step towards it but could only have functioned properly if closer union had already been achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 09:00 AM

The euro appears to have been evidence of what I thought I already knew, that economists are a bunch of bloody idiots. Whatever the EU objectives are, apart from the migrant issue the one thing that will ultimately tear the EU limb from limb is the euro, which would be ironic. Anyway, never mind. I still have a thousand euros on my prepay card that I bought at €1.40 for a quid. Cheap Prosecco on me hols next year!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:42 AM

i share steve's distaxte with the revolting Farage and the iffy language of the euro sceptics. having said that....its not good , is it?

we really do need to tell the the spanish fishermen to fuck off and build up our fish stocks.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:49 AM

All this rage against the perfectly effective, in the usual way of politicians, Farage, strikes me as an excellent example of what might be called the shoot·the·messenger syndrome.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:08 PM

Michael, I am amazed at you. Nigel Farage is a confounded liar who homes in on our EU contribution but who never mentions the benefits we receive. I suppose we could put it down to the fact that they are far harder to put a monetary value to and that he's too thick to do it. But I doubt it. He is also a racist and a scaremonger. He wants to stop the influx of migrants, as we know, but he tells us that it's largely because ISIS might be embedded with them. He believes in collective punishment then for offences that haven't even been committed. One of his spokesmen on the radio today said that Turkey, who is looking after two million refugees at a cost so far of six billion dollars, should not be helped. He is a shallow populist who deals in the easy crowd-pleasers but who won't confront the hard bits that would in any case would just get people yawning. He knows exactly what he's doing, but you appear not to.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:28 PM

No comment. Further dispute between us on this topic would clearly be sterile and futile.

So let's leave it there, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:39 PM

OK. Sorry to beat you up in such brutal fashion. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 03:10 PM

There's been mention of fish stocks in this thread. Fish stocks in the North Sea are far higher than they have been for the past few decades.

If you want to conserve the fish stocks you need to look at the discard system that forces fishermen to jettison perfectly good fish because they don't have a quota to land that particular species.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 03:25 PM

You haven't "beaten" anyone up Steve, you have simply given Your views of Mr Farage as a politician and a human being.

Michael has no doubt become tired of your hysterical and very biased posting on this and other issues.

I don't agree with UKIPs economic policies, but Mr Farage has been warning us all about the dangers of these very high immigration rates for years.....you don't tell us what level of immigration would be acceptable in your opinion.

Ranting about racism just makes you look stupid....

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 03:50 PM

Farage is wrong because he says its a simple question.

bit like thatcher and the shopping basket.

you can't trust anyone who says a complex problem is simple. he's obviously worked out a way of filling his own pockets.

he makes it have to have a sensible debate.

perhaps mudcat is not the place - just too many people with political agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:40 PM

Spot on, Al.

Akenaton, you don't understand humour. Just bugger off, will you. I have no time for you.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:12 PM

No position at all then?......I would have had a bet on that! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 08:30 PM

We can't help it if you can't read. Now, as I said, just bugger off, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 02:10 AM

Now don't quarrel over poor little old me, there's good children. Simply as a matter of fact, I not only examined all the bits I could see in the mirror, but actually had Emma examine me, ocularly & digitally, all over (it was rather fun, actually!); but neither of us could find a single bruise except the one I knew the cause of - having caught my left hip on a corner of the table while trying to inhibit the cat from doing whatever it was she was trying to do under there.

So I'm afraid you don't get your Beater-Up Badge this time, Steve. You'll have to take the test again in front of the Patrol Leaders' Committee after at least another month has elapsed.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 06:03 AM

i wonder if you can remember Mike these debates and forums on this question in Encounter magazine in the 1960's . Kingsley Amis was a great europhobe and immensely entertaining.

i don't think theres anyone else here who will remember that far back.

the strange thing is. i don't remember the debate being well informed then, and not not much better now.

even after 40 years of being in the common market.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:53 AM

I don't really think it's a matter of being 'well-informed' actually, Al; and never was. Far more of an emotional, gut-instinct, sort of thing. My own instinct is against; but mileages vary and always did. I was never much of an Encounter reader; tended to fund it a bit heavy and Stephen Spenderish, & he never a poet I greatly admired: always thought Louis MacNeice far & away the best of that lot.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:55 AM

The best considered view posted so far comes from Richard Bridge -

On the EU however, the social chapter and workers rights and EU discrimination law are all valuable things.

TTIP and free movement of capital are not. If we had a government that could opt out of the TTIP that the EUcrats are about to drag us into (despite about three and a half million signatures on a petition opposing it) I would seriously consider leaving the EU the right thing to do. If we had a government that could at a stroke re-impose exchange control, just as the bitch Thatcher abolished it I might also consider leaving the EU the right thing to do. But we haven't.

The first and most important thing to do is to get rid of the con-servatives.

His first sentence is of crucial importance to me because along with Hungary, we have the most right-wing government in Europe. On balance - and it's not an easy one - I'm in favour of staying in.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 10:20 AM

i loved them all. auden macneice spender, george barker - he novels of isherwood. and of course dylan thomas

youre right though autumn journal is knockout.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 01:39 PM

Thank you Vic

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:14 PM

Autumn Journal indeed! I always feel the last two lines here refer, not only to the Ancient World, but to my youth, way back before, during & just after WWii; & I feel MacNeice, writing them, was thinking of his own youth also --

             I think of the slaves.
And how one can imagine oneself among them
     I do not know;
It was all so unimaginably different
     And all so long ago.   
Louis MacNeice · Autumn Journal (1939)

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:42 PM

my latest poem

If I'd a horse called Jurgen Klopp
I 'd ride my horse down to the shop
I'd dismount and buy a bottle of of pop
then off I'd ride
Clip clop
Clip clop

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:22 PM

Following the drift as it goes, as one does on this forum as a matter of tradition -- things usually get back on keel evenchul! --

Re - Mention by Al of Dylan Thomas above. One of the nicest things that has happened in my nearly 40 years living in this village was when an enterprising Welsh neighbour called Mair Fryer [no longer here alas] roped in a goodly proportion of the population & directed us in Under Milk Wood in the village hall. I still remember most of my part as Sinbad Sailors the Publican whose granny lived in the attic and who was in love with the village maiden -- "Oh Mr Jenkins, says Sinbad Sailors, Oh Mr Jenkins, I dote on that Gossamer Beynon; She's a lady all over!" Odd thing about the neighbour who played my Granny: I had been in two village plays with her previously. In the first she was my wife; in the second my mother-in-law; and now she was my granny!

Shall still vote to leave the EU but YMMV natch.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:22 AM

yes i value the humanitarian input. i tend to think it should be subject of shame that we didn't think of doing all that stuff ourselves, and needed Europe to guide us.

all the economic stuff i don't understand. like i said i thought the euro was a great idea. shows how much i know.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 02:15 PM

I'll be voting to leave. I am not suggesting that we are lions but we certainly are being led by donkeys. There is a group of unelected bureaucrats who sit around all day and think up new laws. And we just go along with it.

It won't be long before Europe splits between the Euro zone and the rest anyway. I can't remember the date. Is it 2023? I can't wait for that. Exit now!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 03:36 PM

England had one thousand, nine hundred and seventy three years without being in the EU. We did OK then and would do OK again if we leave.