BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi

Subject: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:14 AM

I wrote to The Times this morning about report on the English grandfather liable to punishment for alcohol possession in Saudi Arabia as follows:

Of course the Foreign Office must bend every effort to saving that old toper in Saudi from his 350 lashes. But it seems to me very wrong to accept gainful employment in another country and then behave in a manner contemptuous of its laws, of which one must be fully aware. Those who can't do without their inebriative fix just shouldn't accept the job. Having alcohol in Saudi Arabia, apart from anything else, displays filthy manners towards one's host. It may not deserve flogging; but it certainly deserves contempt.

Opinions?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: vectis
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:01 AM

I used to work for an oil company and we were forever shipping wine and beer kits to the guys in the American compound. Most of it got through. If you wanted to party you had to invite the Police chief or you got busted. This chap was either careless or unlucky, he should have carried his wine in a thermos flask instead of a bottle.

I like a drink and used to smoke so refused a posting to Saudi. End of that job...

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:37 AM

I agree that it is unwise to take work in a country whose laws you would be liable to break. I vehemently disagree with your characterisation of the man as an old toper with filthy manners who was alcoholic. It's intemperate and judgemental and quite likely incorrect in detail. I don't care if the Times prints your letter. It's a filthy rag owned by a foreigner in this country who cynically oversaw the breaking of our laws by his employees. Spot the irony.

I'm not going to judge the old boy like you do. Yesterday I had to drive at 90 on the A30 to catch a very early train. I got away with it. There's a big pile of cast-out beams just outside my back door.

But I question whether we should have any dealings at all with a regime that publicly beheads or crucifies hundreds of people a year, often for things that wouldn't even be crimes here, and their lashings are also barbaric. We should tell the antediluvian buggers where to get off until they clean up their act. Oh, I forgot. Our weapons of mass destruction industry would suffer badly if we did that....

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:40 AM

Oh, by the way, the A30 is a dual carriageway and there was hardly any traffic. See, you've got me feeling guilty now.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:10 AM

Sorry to have done so, Steve. But I feel you are being your, somewhat customary, devil's-advocate stirrer-upper. Your excuses for that (I reiterate in ♠♠) filthy-mannered incurably addicted old sod do not bear comparison with your own oh-so-reprehensible iniquities with regard to the traffic laws.

So speed on; and I hope it keeps fine for you [& brings you some fines in the bargain!].

Best ≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:18 AM

I agree 100%, BTW, with your opinions on the Saudi regime & our relations with it; & have often written to that effect on this forum. But that still doesn't excuse the guy's having taken service with it, in full cognisance of the conditions they would employ him under, & then failed to observe them. He arguably deserves his smacked ɷ for being so bloody silly as well as so copulatory rude.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:42 AM

I agree that he was foolish. I do not agree with barbaric laws that put old men in jail for over a year for possessing small amounts of home brew alcohol. I think it's OK to hold those two views simultaneously. Keeping sanctions in proportion with the transgression is not easy, but I'm damn sure that what was done to him overstepped the bounds of reasonableness by a massive factor. As a matter of fact, the Saudis are applying a law of their religion to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, which is plain wrong, in the same way that those religious anti-abortionists wish to apply their intemperate notions to everyone, not just those belonging to their faith. But he was indeed a silly man.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:15 AM

Nothing in the least disrespectful about ignoring silly and oppressive laws. It can be risky, more especially in countries which are liable to enforce those laws brutally.

There is evidently a fair amount of iillegal drinking in Saudi Arabia, both among ex-pats and locals. Here is a BBC article about it

I assume the Times will have dealt appropriately with that letter.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:24 AM

Seeing as how Saudi now chairs the UNHRC they will provide a shining example to the rest of the world on the finer points of the practice of human rights, by Allah.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:57 AM

Steve -- You can keep as many views simultaneously as your pretty ickle head will hold; but it's entirely beside the point whether you 'agree' with any particular laws. If you choose to enter the jurisdiction where they apply, then you had better keep them whether you 'agree' or not, or be prepared to take the consequences: hadn't you?

Simples wotwotwot!

≈M≈

Mind you, I am sure the Saudis must be trembling in their boots [or sandals or whevs] at the thought that they have laws with which the gr8 Shaw disagrees!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:12 AM

Of course. That doesn't stop me commenting on the inappropriateness and brutality of the regime's sanctions for matters that you and I wouldn't even remotely consider to be crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:21 AM

350 lashes....thats a lot

they'll probably do the mascara wrong as well

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:28 AM

Nothing in the least disrespectful about ignoring silly and oppressive laws
.,,.

Disagree profoundly, Kevin. In going to live in a country you make an implicit contract to respect its laws and customs. Failure to do so is, accordingly, 'disrespectful' in more than one sense. If you find the laws of your adoptive home intolerably "silly & oppressive", you were best to stay away. If you go there because [as in the case especially of Saudi, as is well known] you can earn better salary there than elsewhere, then this advantage comes at a certain price. There is an unpleasant whiff of "wanting your cake & eating it" in the attitude adopted by you & Steve here [as well as by that unmannerly abuser of his host country's hospitality], it seems to me.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:52 AM

How many times do I have to say that I think the man was foolish before you take off your blinkers, Michael? What do you suppose I mean when I say that?

There are times when confronting bad laws on principle is appropriate. It was appropriate to refuse to pay the poll tax. It's appropriate to protest against nuclear weapons by chaining yourself to a perimeter fence. I don't think the old boy was taking a stand against a bad law. I think he was trying to get round it, a bit like me and my haste on the A30 yesterday. There is a difference. He was a bit of an idiot for risking it. Are you happy now? If you think that there's an unpleasant whiff about a fellow who furtively tries to possess a bit of home brew, think of the whiff coming from hundreds of public beheadings carried out every year. We're revolted to the rafters, rightly so, when ISIS do it a couple of times a year. But the Saudis? Well, the oil and WMDS appear to make us set aside all our principles, don't they? Anyway, back to your letter-writing. The Times, eh? What's that I smell...

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:11 AM

It is prudent to obey silly and even oppressive laws, but "respecting" those laws is another matter.

It's a slippery word, "respect". We should treat everybody with respect, including those for whom we might quite properly not feel any respect.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:34 AM

But the laws against alcohol are, arguably at least, not 'bad' laws in the sense that you seem to me to be using the term, Steve. Within the context of a nation which explicitly bases its laws upon a specific version (Sharia) of the basic teachings of its state religion, they are laws which should be respected and kept by any who place themselves within their jurisdiction. There is no comparison with ill-judged measures like the poll tax -- tho I would dispute vociferously your asseveration that refusal to pay it was in any way "appropriate"; and the policy of developing and maintaining nuclear weapons to which some took active objection was not a matter of 'law' at all, but of a policy adopted by the government: no Act of Parliament was ever passed saying There Shall Be Nuclear Weapons, you know.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:45 AM

Nothing in the least disrespectful about ignoring silly and oppressive laws.

Therein lies the road to anarchy.

I think that the restrictions on Sunday trading are silly but I don't expect the major supermarkets and high street stores to ignore the law. Many people think that the laws against the use of cannabis are oppressive but it remains illegal. The consumption of alcohol is legal in our country but, while the moderate consumption of alcohol is tolerated, even encouraged in some cases, the misery of alcohol abuse is still plain for all to see.

The prohibition on the consumption of alcohol in Saudi Arabia is well known. It is not some obscure, quaint local custom that someone may accidentally fall foul of. Anyone who can't live with it should stay away.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:52 AM

How did the hapless old secret boozer get caught ?

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:57 AM

Unfortunately for that argument, it is not difficult for the influential and the wealthy to get pissed in Saudi, even if you're a Saudi. The laws the Greenham women were breaking were to do with causing obstruction/criminal damage. As for the evils of alcohol, most people who consume alcohol do so responsibly. Most people who drive cars do not going around killing other road users, though some do. That is not a reason to ban all cars. The Sunday trading and cannabis laws are replete with grey areas. Calling them silly is controversial. If I went to Saudi Arabia for any reason I would keep all their laws. But that would not be because I respect those laws. It would be because I don't want to be thrown into a stinking jail, get lashed or have my head cut off in front of a crowd. In my view, that's a pretty poor reason for having laws.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 11:45 AM

If I went to Saudi Arabia for any reason I would keep all their laws. But that would not be because I respect those laws. It would be because I don't want to be thrown into a stinking jail, get lashed or have my head cut off in front of a crowd. In my view, that's a pretty poor reason for having laws.

But it has the desired effect,ie you wouldn't break those laws.
If there was only a fine would you ignore the law?

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 11:53 AM

What about the British Embassy, are the diplomats allowed to get as pissed as they like
as long as the booze is smuggled in concealed in diplomatic bags
and only consumed inside the official compound.

If so, and it's not strictly illegal, what's to stop them opening a bar on the premises for Brit ex pats ?

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 11:59 AM

Unfortunately for that argument, it is not difficult for the influential and the wealthy to get pissed in Saudi, even if you're a Saudi.

It is not difficult for the influential and the wealthy to avoid paying tax but the rest of us have to put up with it. The fact that some can find loopholes does not justify ignoring the law.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Stu
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 12:07 PM

This is really about the proportionality of the punishment to the crime. Whilst boozing in a booze-free country is a transgression (I bet every drinker in these countries does it though), 300 lashes and a year in clink is not a fitting punishment to the crime. They coupled simply deport him, fine him or whatever but the the Saudi's insist on very harsh punishments; this is the way their system works.

So if they want foreign expertise in their country they should understand the cultural differences and make allowances for them. But they won't, because they realise the UK is:

a) too weak
b) loves their money
c) doesn't give a shit about their nationals getting mistreated by their customers

At least we know the tories are a bunch of morally corrupt corporate shills willing to kowtow to these bloodthirsty goons, and if any of us suffer a similar fate we'll be left in the lurch too.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: mayomick
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 12:09 PM

I hope the Times doesn't publish MGM's letter. He makes two points : firstly the old toper doesn't deserve to be flogged , secondly he shouldn't have been drinking alcohol because it's against the host country's law .Both points are valid and good ones to make on this forum. But the risk is that Saudi authorities reading The Times-which they do- would ignore MGM's first point and use his second point to justify the cruel sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 12:33 PM

That's my point, Stu.

"But it has the desired effect,ie you wouldn't break those laws.
If there was only a fine would you ignore the law?"

Well we used to hang people for stealing a sheep. To take your point to its logical conclusion, why don't we have automatic hanging for every crime? That would certainly have the "desired effect" of abolishing crime, wouldn't it?

As a matter of fact there are many offences that there are only fines for that I never commit. I don't drop litter in the street, defecate in back alleys or fly-tip. I never park my car where I'm not supposed to. I don't ride my bike on the pavement or drink alcohol in the street in zones where it's not allowed. I don't need to be threatened with terrible punishments or death in order to refrain from those things. The law is not there to assume that we are all evil bastards who need summary execution hanging over us. It's there to promote a civilised society.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 12:35 PM

The Times publish only a minute %age of the letters they receive. I've had quite a few in there in my time, but the odds are that they won't publish this one. If they should, however, I can't agree with mayomick's point that it would make things any worse.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 12:44 PM

Well, as the Times comes from such a disreputable stable, I suppose they may well print it. You wouldn't have had a cat in hell's chance of getting it into the Guardian. Essentially, you referred to him pejoratively as an old toper (unnecessary ageism) and as an alcoholic (couldn't do without his inebriative fix), the latter an allegation founded on nothing at all except that he had some home-made wine. Well I've got far more bottles in my outhouse than he had and I'm not an alcoholic. Were the Times to publish that as their editorial opinion, your "old toper" would be able to sue.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 01:03 PM

Oddly enough, it was both The Times & The Guardian for which I wrote most frequently during 35 yrs as theatre and book and folk music critic -- several hundred reviews and features between 1968 & 2003. Quite a lot of letters too, for that matter. But I don't read Gdn any more, tho for many years I would take both papers, Times & Gdn, every day. I think you somewhat underrate the Gdn's letters policy tho, Steve. It would be a poor letters editor who would only print letters with which he & his paper were in ideological agreement.

He is an "old toper", at that, in the sense of obviously being an addicted one of long standing, so habituated & dependent that he can't do without his alcoholic fix. And I am not likely to commit ageism at my time of life, you know. I'm a lot older than that old alky is You're a well·meaning fellow in general, Steve; but very occasionally come over as just a tad not-rite-brite!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 01:09 PM

As a matter of fact there are many offences that there are only fines for that I never commit. I don't drop litter in the street, defecate in back alleys or fly-tip. I never park my car where I'm not supposed to. I don't ride my bike on the pavement or drink alcohol in the street in zones where it's not allowed. I don't need to be threatened with terrible punishments or death in order to refrain from those things. The law is not there to assume that we are all evil bastards who need summary execution hanging over us. It's there to promote a civilised society.
So you obey those laws because you consider they lead to a civilised society.
If you chose to obey them the punishment be it fine or flogging is of no consequence to you.
Floggings are a punishment for the criminal and a warning to others. Some people only respond to such threats.
They are not as socially aware as you are.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 01:41 PM

A man freely chooses to work in a country which he knows full well has strict laws on the consumption of alcohol and the penalties for so doing.

He breaks the law and gets caught.

Stupid sod.

I wouldn't work in a country like Saudi Arabia, knowing the style of life I would have to leave - not for megabucks.

My choice - his choice.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 01:45 PM

Punishment rarely figures in the decision to commit a crime. It would be a very stupid criminal indeed who thought he would get caught and went ahead anyway. Very few people are career criminals and most commit crimes on the spur of the moment, either believing that they will not get caught or that it does not matter anyway. Even if they do not get caught it is often the shock realising what they have done that prevents recidivism.

The Saudi Arabian authorities need to move into the 21st century if they expect to be treated as players in the modern world.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 01:54 PM

I agree, Will but that doesn't prevent the other strand to this discussion which was pretty inevitable, the barbarism of Saudi punishments.

I hate to present you with reality, Michael, but possession of booze does not make you an alcoholic.

"So you obey those laws because you consider they lead to a civilised society. "

I obey those laws because that's the way I've been brought up, basically. But when I take thought I can see that good laws are indeed all about promoting a free and fair society. Good laws can't also make us scared to death.

"If you chose to obey them the punishment be it fine or flogging is of no consequence to you."

Generally speaking, my behaviour is not informed by the law but by my instincts as to what I should or shouldn't be doing. Now that I've cleared that up, perhaps you'd like to tell us whether you're in favour of floggings, crucifixions and public beheadings. Whilst I suspect you're not, you write as if you are.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 02:07 PM

I take the point that's been made, Steve - and I agree wholeheartedly that the Saudi criminal justice system is barbaric. As are the criminal justice systems of many other countries.

Knowing that full well, I would not choose to work in any of those countries under any circumstances.

"Oh look - the river at this point is full of crocodiles."
"I'm going to cross the river here."
"Oh shit - I've lost a leg."

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 02:17 PM

So we build a nice bridge over that river. We stand on on the bridge and what do we see? Down it come ships bearing barrels of oil. Up it go ships full of WMDs. There are guys in the river getting their legs bitten off. They have no bloody right to get in the way of those ships!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 02:50 PM

Of course I'm not in favour of such punishments,sadly Saudi is.
The man has lived there of his own free will for twenty odd years and was fully aware of what he was doing and the punishment.
In view of his age a heavy fine and deportation would be more appropriate.
The Saudi regime behave as they do because that is the way they were brought up, just as you do.
Until you can make them see the error of their ways any one who visits or lives in the country has to obey the present laws or leave if they don't wish to suffer the punishments for disobedience.
All societies change over time and become more tolerant,our own was as cruel as theirs little over a hundred years ago,we still have some way to go but we are getting there.They have further to go than us.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 02:52 PM

"hate to present you with reality, Michael, but possession of booze does not make you an alcoholic."
.,,.,.
Indeed not, Steve. But there would seem to me to be a certain degree of compulsion or dependency in insisting on possession in circumstances where it is known to be illegal, and where the possible penalties must be know. The community will not have forgotten previous such cases, of which I recall several, like that woman Penelelope Something & couple called Goldsmith, all sentenced to corp pun and only saved by diplo=manoeuvres, reported within the last dozen or so years. He knew the risks he ran -- must have done. So why did the silly sod have to have the stuff if not dependent to at least some degree? Or else indulging in silly perverse games like children who play up to see how far they can go before a spanking descends.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 03:08 PM

"Until you can make them see the error of their ways"
.,,.
There is, is there not, a certain degree of Euro-centricity involved in this formulation. They don't think their ways are erroneous; they are following the teachings and injunctions of their Prophet, and consider your/our ways erroneous. Who do you/we think you/we are to try to make them "see" any such thing!

But one can get very confused trying to live up to such empathetic and relativist values, can't one!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 03:32 PM

So, as I see it: -

He is old.

I am not aware of any evidence that he was an alcoholic.

I am not aware that the Saudi regime was in any way his "host" nor indeed that he entered into any "contract" to obey their laws.

He is liable to the penalty prescribed by law - even if in venal and corrupt Sordid Arabia many with money and power get away with many things.

The existence of the law is a matter for Saudi jurisprudence.

The penalty handed down in this case is inhuman - but about what I expect of insane theocratic despots. Human Rights committee my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 03:33 PM

PS - I also see no evidence of rudeness.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 03:49 PM

Interesting article from the BBC explaining the drink culture and risks involved. There is alcohol readily available in a lot of places and the Saudi authorities turn a blind eye when it suits them. There is something political afoot here rather than it being the simple case that some would have us believe.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:49 PM

"PS - I also see no evidence of rudeness. " -- R Bridge

.,,.,..,

Should have gone to Specsavers...

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:51 PM

The man obviously, from past ex-pat employment, knew the crime.

Cabs are cheap...and so are private drivers.

He was flaunting arrogance before the local law.

He was wrong.

Virtually every viral/bacterial medication is available OTC in all the Arabian states. They will try to cure ANY disease.

Addiction is a VICE.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

USA prisons are being emptied...to make room for those incoming fools that beleive THC is legal in every state.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:03 PM

'nor indeed that he entered into any "contract" to obey their laws.'
.,,.

I should have thought that taking up residence in any jurisdiction would imply entering into a contract to obey its laws.

If a foreign visitor breaks our laws, would you not expect some adverse reaction from our authorities, Richard?

I believe you are a lawyer by profession. May I have your professional opinion as to whether that would indeed in all likelihood be the case, please?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,#
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:34 PM

Might be worth it to combine this thread with the following.

thread.cfm?threadid=158340&messages=2

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:19 PM

"If a foreign visitor breaks our laws, would you not expect some adverse reaction from our authorities, Richard?"

I certainly would. And I might expect those who wallow in self-defined erudition to not write vacuous letters to their scurrilous newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:54 PM

Partly one shouldn't flout local laws when a guest abroad, partly locales should not have biblical laws in this day and age. The combo here means that poor old guy is, probably, going to be killed.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:29 PM

These are not biblical laws. I am not sure what they might be derived from. They are barbaric in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Bert
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:09 AM

When I worked in Saudi, drinking by expats was overlooked if they kept it quiet. So we used to get drunk in our own homes, but didn't go out on the street in that condition. We couldn't buy real liquor so we bought moonshine called sidiqui.

If we wanted proprietary liquor, about the only way to get it was to arrange a meeting with a Saudi contractor who would always have a bottle of whiskey available.

At that time, people who got caught were shipped home on the next plane.

Why that didn't happen in this case I don't know. It is probably due to some diplomatic failure.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 03:19 AM

My sister and her husband spent a year in Egypt in 2011-2012 - her husband had a Fulbright appointment to teach at the University of Alexandria. I spent almost three weeks visiting them, and it was perhaps the most interesting three weeks of my life.

There were lots of UK and US expats in Cairo, and they were the target of much derision from Americans and Brits who tried to blend with the culture of Egypt. The expats worked hard to isolate themselves from Egypt. They had their own clubs and restaurants and stores. One wonders why they wanted to be in Egypt, since they isolated themselves so totally from Egypt.

There were other things that just didn't seem appropriate in Egypt, like the woman in the stunning minidress in the Egyptian Museum - what was she thinking? Oh, another interesting phenomenon were the wealthy Saudis we'd see all over, dressed in their snow-white garb and spending money like water. My sister said wealthy Saudis went to Egypt because Egypt was so much less restrictive than what they had back home.

Beaches were interesting, too. There were lots of men in Western-style swim trunks, but very few women. The women wore what were called "burkinis" no skin left uncovered.

To me, it seems strange to want to stand out in a foreign culture.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 05:42 AM

HiLo -- As I understand it, they are supposed by the particular faction that impose Sharia to derive from Koranic [Quranic if preferred] Surahs. Others, as I understand, claim that other Surahs elsewhere contradict these particular injunctions. But not being of the Islamic faith myself, my knowledge is necessarily hearsay & so a bit vague & imprecise. Has Mudcat any Muslim members who could help elucidate what is required by the various factions of their Faith?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 05:54 AM

So we're saying that a blind eye is turned to boozing in Saudi as long as you do it at home, or in an embassy, and you can always buy your booze surreptitiously off a Saudi. But an old boy with six bottles of home brew in his boot has to be made an example of. All this talk of "respecting" their laws, etc., is bollix isn't it. It's just a rotten, corrupt, mysogynistic and brutal place in which bad laws are applied inconsistently and arbitrarily. The hypocrisy of it all is that, were it not for the oil and weapons trades, Saudi Arabia would be a pariah state.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:00 AM

Richard objected to the term "host country" being used to describe the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia .FYI ,"Host" does not always mean somebody who receives and entertains guests at a cocktail-party , Richard , old chap.
I think MGM meant "host" in the same sense that it is being used here :
"Check your careers service library and website for information on your host country and discuss your preparations with the relevant careers adviser..."

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:12 AM

Indeed so. Thank you, mayo. Richard is sometimes a bit of a resolute misunderstander, as we know. I do not think that so expert a point-misser as he often affects to be could have achieved the professional and academic distinction he appears to have attained. Why he does it, God knows [solely, I suspect: I don't think Mr B himself really knows; seems to be some odd, perverse compulsion on his part].

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:46 AM

MGM Lion: Your excuses for that (I reiterate in ♠♠) filthy-mannered incurably addicted old sod

Firstly, how on earth do you know his sexual proclivities? Or were you perhaps intending to type "sot" rather than "sod"? :-)

Secondly: I've worked in a number of Middle Eastern and African countries, some where alcohol is technically banned, some where it's restricted and some where it's fairly liberally available.

In the countries where it is technically banned (eg Saudi, Sudan) the fact is that the authorities usually turn a blind eye to its discreet consumption. Locals can (and do) pretty well consume with impunity, as long as they don't flaunt it. Foreigners have to be a bit more circumspect but the likelihood of being caught, or if caught of suffering any penalty other than having to bribe the local police, is extremely low. There's huge hypocrisy between the technicality of the law and its observance/ enforcement.

In such case people can get lax, arrogant, or indiscreet, which is what this guy appears to have done. Pissing off an influential local can have the same effect.

Even in more "liberal" places such as UAE, there are many laws on the books which are not enforced at all, except where the authorities or someone influential wants to make an example. For instance, I've seen people kissing publicly at Abu Dhabi airport many times. This is technically illegal, but the only time I can recall anyone being prosecuted for kissing in public was a couple where the bloke has pissed off one of his Emirati neighbours over a parking dispute.

Similarly, in UAE you technically can't co-habit or even just share an apartment with a member of the opposite sex unless you are married. But I know a number of people who live in "mixed" apartments in Dubai and AD. They have to be careful to keep on the good side of their neighbours though. Again, I know of one case where a local who'd been upset by someone "dobbed them in" and the people were gaoled, fined and deported for it.

You tend to be much more careful in the strict countries than in the apparently more lax ones, though, which is why you occasionally see stories of people in UAE being prosecuted for offences that are in fact very common there....so common that a lot of expats aren't even aware that they *are* offences.

I think the guy was a knob, but the hypocrisy in terms of how laws are applied out there is massive, so to state that anyone who breaks the law out there is "asking for it" is actually very simplistic, given the actual "conditions on the ground".

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 10:55 AM

Don't be sillier than you need, Rob. If you don't appreciate the difference between "sodomite" as a term for one with certain proclivities, and "sod" as a generalised, quite mild, term of slightly affectionate and facetious abuse, (often, for reasons of alliterative effect, combined with the adjective 'silly'), then you must have so little ear for the nuances of the language that you would be wise to refrain from comment on the matter...

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:09 PM

These are not biblical laws. Where do you think they looked them up? These punishments are straight out of the Old Testament.

OF course the Bible was first plagiarized from earlier laws and then reinterpreted into Arabic, but still.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:17 PM

weird story....what is everybody thinking?

its so unfathomable

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:03 AM

Mrrzy, I am afraid I don't understand your post! Could you clarify " plagiarized" in this context? Are you saying that the Koran is an Arabic translation of the bible. I am a bit cOnfused.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Bert
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 03:43 AM

Let us not make more of this than it really is. When you go to work in a foreign country you try to fit in the best you can, and the 'natives' try to accept you the best that they can.

There is a lot more tolerance in Islamic countries than the press would have you believe. Most Muslims are very family oriented and tolerant of westerner's mistakes.

Of course you will always find individual cases that you can use to support your personal prejudices and the same can be said of your home country. There is always some bureaucrat who will overstep his mark, but his actions should not be taken to represent the culture as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 05:04 AM

I think you are being a bit resolutely PC·ly are tolerant there, Bert. Sharia where adopted [& it's getting more & more of a hold in Islamic jurisdictions] is predicated on literal application of the Prophet's injunctions. Where except N Nigeria and such places are young girls publicly caned on the bare bottom for the iniquity of being 'impure' — thru having been raped?! Or are women buried up to the neck to have their heads smashed with rocks for 'adultery'? — which doesn't there only mean congress by a married woman with a 3rd party, but even intercourse with a lawfully-married spouse of whom the woman's parents did not initially approve so complained of her matrimony to the authorities. And you know as well as I do that these things happen quite a lot, and are not unique instances. This present brouhaha would seem to me very much "to represent the culture as a whole" - at least in some of its less attractive aspects.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 07:59 AM

"Where except N Nigeria and such places are young girls publicly caned on the bare bottom for the iniquity of being 'impure'"
Happened within living memory within these islands - and worse.
Girls were beaten, and humiliated and incarcerated for being "sinners" on a regular basis for allowing themselves to be seduced and raped.
In some cases, the incarceration lasted a lifetime - the last Magdalene Laundry finally closed its doors in 1996 and sisters responsible for running these institutes of slavery were still describing their victims as "sinners" and "the sweepings of the street" and insisting that they committed no crime .
There's an awful smug bigotry in singling out one particular religion for its excesses when in fact all religions are capable and have been persecution and atrocities in the name of their own particular religion and deity.
Then again, even more smugness from people who keep silent when their politicians go and pay their respects to dead despots while a victims of the regime is receiving his latest instalment of 1000 strokes for speaking out of turn.      
Your outrage has very selective boundaries Mike.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 08:24 AM

Take your point[s], Jim. But the Magdalene Laundries at least no longer exist, while N Nigeria does. And cite yet again the 'two blacks' formulation. And continue to denounce relativism. The fact that RC-ism had [or, if you prefer, has] its iniquities does not excuse the even worse ones of Sharia-based Islam. They didn't SFAIK stone any of the Magdalene Laundry girls to death, did they?

So, as to your remarks on the boundaries of my outrage, might I perhaps plead that, if one is disinterestedly to denounce every abuse anywhere on Earth as equally culpable, that way lies madness. One has to be a bit selective in the boundaries of one's indignation to remain sane. And those of Sharia seem to me at present to be manifestly the most censurable.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 09:09 AM

No, but they threw their babies into a sewer.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 09:55 AM

Precisely, Steve. You think you're putting me down, but you simply confirm my point:- An abuse, sure; but a lesser abuse. Or do you, crazy relativist that you are, genuinely think that disrespectful disposal of stillborn infants is really as great a departure from the exigencies of human-rights as burying someone up to her neck in sand and smashing rocks into her head at point-blank range until she is dead?

If so, then go away and commune with yourself: I've got nothing further to say to you.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 10:07 AM

"But the Magdalene Laundries at least no longer exist, "
Not the point Mike - they ceased to exist when the church lost its power, and like all extremes, the mentality that ran them is waiting in the wings for the second coming.
The way to end persecution of any form is to recognise the reason for its existence and put it out of harms way, not to hold ones hand up in horror at one particular brand and ignore all the others.
You choose not to comment on the political support and comfort offered by the west to the extremists... which says all that needs to be said about your outrage - not serious enough to rock the political or economic boat.
STRENGTHENING NIGERIAN/BRITISH RELATIONS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 10:17 AM

Regret that I can make neither heads nor tails of precisely what is the sin of omission of which you accuse me there, Jim; so regret I have no idea how to respond. I suspect it may relate to your usual shtick of instinctively leaping in defence at any criticism of any demotic entity who happen to be to any extent off-white in their body pigmentation.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:01 AM

My point is - while these extremists continue to do what they do our politicians stand by and not only say nothing but quite often supply them with the wherewithal to stay in power - I have little doubt that if Britain ha
d a thriving whip industry it would be eagerly seeking to sell its products to Saudi and other such despotic regimes and
it would have no problem in obtaining export licenses to do same.
Britain did othing whatever to curb the excesses of the Assads - not even in exerting political pressure - end result - the rise of Isis.
Surely that is worthy of comment?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:44 AM

But what the hell difference do you think my 'outrage', if I had any, would make anyhow? I honestly have not a notion of what you are on about here. Jim. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:00 PM

"But what the hell difference do you think my 'outrage'"
About as much as your outrage at the cruelty of the practice you opened a thread about.
I suggest we leave this Mike - you've put yourself where you stand on this - pretty much in the same position as Keith - somewhat empty hand-wringing and breast-beating - as long as it doesn't involve criticism of our elected representatives.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:05 PM

well yes its worth of comment, jim. so start another thread and comment on it.

the actual subject under discussion here is, whilst recognising their right to have what laws they want, its a bit of a bugger that they-re intending to beat an old man. i cannot think of any Muslim i know who would approve of it.

you seem to think that murky goings on in our past give them some sort of moral right to get on with it, with a whip made somewhere other than England.

hand tooled leather by a skilled Irish workforce with a European subsidy maybe......

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:12 PM

"I suggest we leave this Mike"

.,,.

[big]❤[/big]-ily agree Jim. Your confused rage about I·have·not·the·remotest·notion·what has really lost me this time!

CU·sometime

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:58 PM

Oh come onnnnn Mike
You you exactly what I'm talking about but - hypocrisy rules OK - as usual - or put another way "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" (or stay silent).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:02 PM

"you seem to think that murky goings on in our past give them some sort of moral right to get on with it,"
On the contrary Al - I blame the abuse of religion -any religion - for what is happening today - Mike chooses to blame one and ignore the part politics and greed play.
Nobody has a right to carry out such abuses and nobody here is defending them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:12 PM

I AM SORRY JIM I HAVE NOT THE LEAST IDEA WHAT IN HELL YOU ARE WITTERING ON ABOUT AND MANY THANKS FOR CALLING ME A LIAR YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY STICK IN ONE OF UP YOUR OWN ɷ-HOLE KNOWITALL FITS

SO PLEASE GO AWAY

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:15 PM

It was you who said "I suggest we leave this Mike" & I agreed so why the pigshit couldn't you you mouthy u-no-wot!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:19 PM

YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY STICK

STUCK, fick it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:20 PM

Things always seem to go down hill when Jim arrives. He is self righteous to an an abnormal extent, put him on high ignore, best policy, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:25 PM

Yay! As the fine old song puts it

♫HiLo Jack & The Game!♫

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:34 PM

"Things always seem to go down hill when Jim arrives
Yup - eejits always eeem to start throwing stone from the sidelines rather than responding to the points being made - uncanny, innit?
"I AM SORRY JIM I HAVE NOT THE LEAST IDEA WHAT IN HELL YOU ARE WITTERING ON ABOUT "
As siimple as I can make it then Mike - Western Governments, is supporting extremist Governments and selling them weapons are facilitating the abuses being carried out in the name of religion, be they in Saudi Arabia, Israel or wherever.
The two greatest religious threats in the in the world today are from Israel's attempts to set up monotheistic state by driving out all who do not conform to its grand plan, and Isis.
Isdrael has the full support of the West (wobbling a little due to recent events) and Isis rose to where it is because of the West's failure to act on the atrocities that were taking place in Syria.
But as I said - hypocrisy still rules OK among those who refuse to respond to those facts.
Sorryt to be an embarrassment (not)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:45 PM

well starting from the point that he's bang to rights....it sort of raises problems.

okay ...suppose we get the old bloke out of there. what then?

ought we not to try and say to them...you really shouldn't be doing this to your people.

I mean...its terrible, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 10:34 PM

Yes, the Koran is largely the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is largely prior writings.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:44 AM

who knows what the koran says. i haven;t read it.

but existentially they've got a choice....they don't have to flog and behead citizens of their country.

i was talking to a chap who went to a beheading in saudi, he was saying, he wished he hadn't gone. he can never get what he saw out of his head.

the victim is knelt down . the executioner prods him in the back with the sword and that causes him raises his head and in that instant the head is chopped off.

its a bit like the beastly techniques of the late Albert Pierrepoint. such expertise is not borne of human decency.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:57 AM

"suppose we get the old bloke out of there. what then?"
WE don't get anybody out of anywhere Al, but we encourage those who want to better their lot and modernise and free up their societies to do so in whatever way THEY choose - their choices, not ours.
We most certainly DO NOTin any way hinder that process of change by propping up the persecutors by selling the persecutors the wherewithal to persecute because they are regarded as a safe pair of hands to ensure that we can keep our cars on the road.
One of the things missing from the arguments of those who "don't have the least idea what in hell I am wittering on about" (sic) is their failure to address the immorality and total lack of humanity in supporting the monsters because it in our interests to do so - Batista, Marshal Ky, Pinochet, Papa Doc, Assad, the Saudi Princes, Netanyahu - all good friends of the west at one time or another, because it has suited us.
Now that predatory self interest has blown up in our faces.
Take the piss all you want Al - you obviously have chosen your side in all this - and a sorry bunch you make.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:05 AM

I would have thought that if one was taking the trouble to write to The Times (I hadn't realised that people still did that) it would be to tackle bigger issues such as Saudi's barbaric and brutal legal system, its disgusting human rights record, its suppression of women or its slaughter of thousands of innocent people in Yemen using weaponry supplied by UK companies and sanctioned by our government. To write to denounce the bad manners of one misguided elderly man seems pompous and petty.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Megan L
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:41 AM

Oh wow you know how to post in red now when iv'e taken a painkiller to get rid of the headache it gave me I will tell you what I think of self important people who harangue others.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:50 AM

" I will tell you what I think of self important people who harangue others."
Feel free Megan - nobody else has addressed the points I made ad so far, you have only managed the font colour
I live in anticipation.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 06:04 AM

Your earnest animadversions are noted, O·My·Lord·leveller. Peccavi o peccavi.

I am going down the garden to eat worms.

〠〠〠〠〠〠〠〠



teeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 06:32 AM

"I am going down the garden to eat worms."
Beats responding to facts any day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 06:55 AM

'N' wot's rocking your old boat today den, Jimbo·me·duckling... Aaahhh, is it all a poo-wold twosspatch coz Megan made it look so silly?

Open mouth nice & wide now -- here's a luvly wigglyworm 4U

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 08:25 AM

"N' wot's rocking your old boat today den, Jimbo·me·duckling.
Back to the schoolyard then Mike - as I said - beats responding to hard facts.
Puts all your compassion for the Saudi grandfather where it belongs, doesn't it - of no interest if it shows our betters in a bad light.
I do respect a man of principle and compassion!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 08:35 AM

what hard facts?

apparently i am taking the piss and i've taken sides.

thou speakest in riddles my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 02:49 PM

What I want to know is, did you sign your letter Disgusted of Cheltenham, you quaint old-fashioned thing, you?

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:31 PM

Things always seem to go down hill when Jim arrives. He is self righteous to an an abnormal extent, put him on high ignore, best policy, I think.

I have empathy for him.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:42 PM

No leveller -- I signed with my own name -- as I do on this forum [or at least a recognisable version of it so that everyone knows who I am]

unlike some I can think of on the forum, with silly names like "The One Who Knocks The Houses Down" or "The Man Who Does The Ironing" or "The Guy Who Evens Everything Up", cos they seem ashamed to let anyone know who they really are! Probably becoz so much of what they post is so all-fire bleeding silly...

MICHAEL GROSVENOR MYER

34 West End   
Haddenham
Cambridge

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 07:09 PM

right on michael!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 07:50 PM

Oh dear, sense of humour bypass, Michael? Now you're sounding like the type of right-wing reactionary who one expects to write to The Times. As a matter of consistency I post as theleveller ever since I inadvertently acquired that name back in the days if the beeb folk forum and people who got to know me in real life still call me that. You can, if you wish, call me Pete Thompson, from Wressle, East Riding of Yorkshire, so please descend from your high horse before you fall off and do yourself a mischief (you wouldn't want people think you'd been drinking, would you?).

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 08:00 PM

Sorry, that was me on my Kindle. If you really want to know who I am this is me:

https://www.facebook.com/pete.thompson.900

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:22 PM

To think, Michael, if only I'd known. When I lived in Loughton I could have been up that M11 in half an hour chucking rotten eggs at your front window. Damn!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 11:02 PM

I had a friend who served in Desert Storm, who told me that he and his army buddies made prune juice into brandy. Nobody seemed to mind.

In college, I had to tell my friends that Muslims didn't drink alcohol. I had a hard time convincing them, since most of the Muslims at Ohio University did, and did it a lot.

The Saudi Government could have saved themselves a boatload of trouble if they'd just deported the old guy, quickly and quietly.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 03:14 AM

Thanks, leveller/Pete. Glad to know you properly at last.

All sorts of people write to The Times, ya-kno -- it's quite an MOR journal, nicely poised between the extremities of Gdn & Tele IMO.

Steve -- As to fantasies of flinging shit at my windows -- You may talk tough; but I have a sort of gut instinct that, like me, for all the pugnacious flak one occasionally gets tempted into on this somewhat truculently-oriented forum, you are quite a nice·old·cup·of·tea at ·♥· really.

("Curses! — Discovered!!" you exclaim, twirling your moustachios and gnashing your teeth!)

Greetings and Peace! to Pete & Steve & all·our·readers --

〠≈Michael≈〠

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:09 AM

"Things always seem to go down hill when Jim arrives. He is self righteous to an an abnormal extent, "
I come to this forum to discuss subjects that interest me and on which I have opinions.
I have become a little tired of abusive people who come to these threads offering nothing but abusive comments - Lilo being a case in point (should have stuck to the beach job)
Whoever you are - you make no point of your own and no comments on what I have to say, just trolling from the sidelines - something you are very proud of I'm sure.
I've said what I believe - the response has been pretty pathetic so far - a retreat into the schoolyard in response to what I have said, after claiming that he didn't understand those points - (reminiscent of the "I'm no historian" and "I only believe it because somebody told me it was true and they are "experts"".
ow - let's have some of your "Jimbo·me·duckling... Aaahhh, is it all a poo-wold twosspatch coz Megan made it look so silly?" (Megan said nothing, by the way, she did promise to "tell you what I think of self important people who harangue others." -0 but failed to deliver, so how she managed to "made it look so silly" is a little beyond me.
Don't know why you started this thread Mike - it certainly wasn't to discuss the subject in any depth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:46 AM

Why, Jim,I started the thread, as the one word at the end of my OP will reveal, to solicit, as it sez -

"Opinions?" -

on what seemed to me a current issue of some concern -- why else?

It seems to me to have developed thence into quite a worthwhile thread with various relevant issues and opinions being canvassed. The fact that you might not agree with all of the points raised and opinions expressed, Jim, doesn't seem to me worthy of your peculiar animus against it, and against those whose expressed opinions herein do not accord with your own.

Sorry Jim ··· as I remarked above, I genuinely don't know what you are on about:— what the basis of all your rage is here; why you should be so puzzled as to why I started the thread -- why does anyone ever start a thread except for motives as I rubricate above?

I honestly don't know what's come over you, Jim. You seem to me on this occasion to have seriously lost the plot... & I do not appear to be the only one who thinks so, do I?

Best to you as always just the same. I still like to hope that we have more in common over the history of, & our individual and several contributions to, the Revival &c, than we have contrary issues such as irreparably to sour our relationship. Let it be our endeavour to remain affable and civil, whatever...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:49 AM

"Greetings and Peace!"

I'll drink to that! ;)

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:58 AM

Liks I said -- a nice old

♨

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 05:04 AM

"on what seemed to me a current issue of some concern -- why else?"
Yet you can't bring yourself around to condemning your Prime Minister for supporting regimes that adminiter the punishment you rightly bring to our notice and you become quite abusive to anybody who does - some ******* concern.
Excuse me if I belive you to be a hypocrite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 05:08 AM

"Mister" Myer - you misrepresent your own words. Why am I not surprised? Look back at the original text of your silly letter. The Leveller's summary of you as "pompous and petty" is absolutely spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 05:18 AM

I am sorry, Jim, but you just haven't been listening. I have frequently expressed my disgust at our government's sycophantic attitude to that disgusting regime just because of its bloody oil. And I'll say it again any time you like.

Tho you seem to me to be a bit two-☹-edly singing simultaneously from two separate hymn sheets in this particular:— When I have expressed such an opinion, your reaction as often as not has been to denounce me as a racist. Just look back at some of our numerous previous exchanges on this topic.

Even you can't have it both ways, you know. I say again, Jim -- you seem to me to be one extremely confused party right now. And note that it was not me who asserted "Things always seem to go down hill when Jim arrives. He is self righteous to an an abnormal extent": I don't even agree with it — but you appear for some reason intent on demonstrating that there might be some truth in the assertion at that, don't you eh!!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 05:36 AM

& you might as well save your precious breath, Ricarde Ponsibums. Have given up bothering even to read your fatuous selfregarding posts.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 05:57 AM

"When I have expressed such an opinion, your reaction as often as not has been to denounce me as a racist. Just look back at some of our numerous previous exchanges on this topic."
Can't remember ever denouncing you as a racist, I certainly discussed Keith's attack on British Pakistanis in those terms when you claimed his remarks weren't racist, but that was it.
I do find your Antisemitism in linking the behaviour of the Israeli regime with the Jewish People disturbing - but that had nothing to do with racism either - you're going to have to enlighten me on that one.   
Where have you ever condemned Cameron on his paying respects to the head of the Saudi regime while they were beating the shit out of a journalist - where do you condemn your government for their part in supporting that regime in relation to this topic - you were invited to and you declined-
The sale of arms - have you ever condemned the selling of arms to these bastards?
Your condemnation is somewhat like that of your approach to Israel - don't mention the massacres, condemn the pulling down of olive trees - it's called praising with faint damns.
Where exactly am I confused?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 07:05 AM

"Can't remember ever denouncing you as a racist" ---

Forgotten, have you?, the time you accused me of having accused immigrants of "coming here to steal our jobs" when I had never made any such accusation or used that form of words -- so instead of apologising you fell back on some sort of peculiar formula like "well that was what came across emotionally from what I'd said even if I hadn't actually said it". Sorry, Jim, but that is the sort of accusation you do chuck about when you get emotionally involved -- the way you are doing here, with your "praising with faint damns": my damns [of Israel or Saudi!] are no fainter than yours, you over-emotional jackanapes!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 07:21 AM

...and if I haven't objected explicitly to the supply of "arms to those bastards", it's because that particular aspect of the topic has never come up in the particular part of it that I was addressing. But of course I object to it. What sort of cogent or coherent argument do you imagine yourself to be postulating in denouncing me for not having answered a question that nobody had asked me. You are trying to prove a negative, don't you realise, Jim?

Like I say -- 'confused'. "Where exactly am I confused?" you ask in pathetic defensive tones. Well, right there for a start.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 07:28 AM

Of course, this highlights the stupidity of religion!

In Christianity, alcohol (in the form of wine) is a central part of the religious service.

Indeed, Jesus undoubtedly had a few glasses at that wedding feast in Cana.

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 07:50 AM

In Judaism likewise, of course, Tunesmith. And there is an ambivalence about it in Islam: wine is highly praised in the work of the famous "Persian mathematician, astronomer, philosopher, and poet, Omar Khayyam, who is widely considered to be one of the most influential scientists of all time... Born in Nishapur, in northeastern Iran also known as Persia, at a young age he moved to Samarkand and obtained his education there. Afterwards he moved to Bukhara and became established as one of the major mathematicians and astronomers of the Islamic Golden Age" Wikipedia.

He wrote the famous Rubaiyyat*, so memorably translated [or paraphrased] into English by Fitzgerald, chockful of the delights of "the grape".

So the views of thse Sharia-embracers, with their beheadings & stonings & floggings for possessing alcohol, are not even universal within their Faith.

≈M≈


*"a collection of Ruba'i (a form of Persian poetry") - Wiki

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:02 AM

The Saudi royalty are self righteous hypocrites who present the face of devout Islam to the outside world whilst boozing and whoring it up behind the walls of their royal palaces.

Wikileaks

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:15 AM

er....why aren't we all on the same side on this one? none of us want theold man flogged. do we?

anyway well done if they print your letter -they never print any that i send up.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:31 AM

Arms is part of the support I have constantly been referring to - here and on other threads - as has been Cameron's attendance at the King's funeral while one of these barbaric floggings was taking place.
I cannot recall your ever responding to the link between these people and the British Government - happy to be corrected on that one.
Nor can I recall my referring to you in the way you say I did; if I did so, I apologise - I have never regarded you as a racist.
I stand by what I say of your opposition to Israel being as I described it - measurably short of what is actually happening there, compounded by your accusations of "Antisemitism" when I have outlined my own feelings toward Israel - which is both unfair ans Antisemitic by the definition you yourself raised (you may not realise that, but it is, to borrow your own choice of words).
Jackanapes yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 12:34 PM

"Self-righteous hypocrites" - no wonder "Mister" Myer so likes them!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 01:47 PM

☛〠☚

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 02:04 PM

why so nasty to MGM Richard?

you might not agree with him, but we all agree the old man shouldn't be flogged, and at least he's written a letter. most people have done nothing to help him. i haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 05:12 PM

Well, I don't care how old he is.   I'm not necessarily agreeing that Michael shouldn't be flogged.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 05:26 PM

Don't think you'd get very much for me....

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 07:29 PM

Oh, I dunno, Michael. Cadavers could be quite valuable. You'd just have to promise to lie down and keep very still, that's all... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:40 PM

"Mister" Myer's original letter, while expressing the view that a flogging would be inappropriate, seems calculated to reduce sympathy for the victim and to provide an excuse for the Sordid Arabians.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:53 PM

i haven't read the letter but as my father in law used to say theres more to be gained by licking than kicking.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 10:38 AM

Oh, Steve, for the days when I was cadaverous. I was an exceptionally thin young man -- on my first wedding day in 1959 I weighed under 9 stone tho I am 6 ft tall. But I've filled out a bit over the years and hate to look at myself now. Bring back cadaverous!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 11:55 AM

perhaps you had worms

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 06:43 PM

Al, the letter is in the first post on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 08:42 AM

"Why so nasty to MGM, Richard?" asked Al, 9 posts above.

I'll tell you why, Al, since he hasn't; & won't. It's because, ·#1·, he is a spiteful bit of work altogether -- just look at his overall attitude to any sort of opposition.; &, in particular, ·#2·, he knows that I see thru the patronising nature of his trendy leftyism. He doesn't give a bugger for equality, & the Rights·Of·Man & all that caper: he just thinks that being a middle-class lefty is a right-on earnest of ❤·in·right·placery -- what the excellent Rod Liddle in this week's Spectator sums up as "virtue-signalling". How many members of the working class does he actually number among his acquaintance, I wonder, as he pursues his uncontrovertably upper-to- upper-middle-class profession? And, as he doesn't like being seen thru, he goes on getting at me as a form of defensive aggression. As if I should give a flying one what he thinks of me anyhow -- especially since I have pretty well given up reading his boring posts at that.

That answer your question?

Best regards

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 08:57 AM

"virtue-signalling"

Bang spot on perfect term for a few of our predominately, but not exclusively, Brit posters.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 09:16 AM

"the patronising nature of his trendy leftyism"
The trendy rightism displayed by you and yours seems to need to attack (Muslim only) extremism without taking on the fact they enjoy the power that they have largely thanks to the support they are given from the West.
Rather be a "leftie" - trendy or otherwise, than a right-wing hypocrite.
Will be interested to see whether China's now being welcomed into the fold makes any difference.
Nice cartoon in The Times this morning showing the Chinese visitors embarking on their journey for home via a staircase made up of Her Maj, (gawd bless 'er), Phil the Greek, Cameron and his toadies.
Tiananmen Square - must be some sort of a dance!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 09:47 AM

(Muslim only) extremism without taking on the fact they enjoy the power that they have largely thanks to the support they are given from the West.

What a crock of shit. Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan are the primary funders and supporters of Muslim extremists. But keep on grinding your ideological axe, it makes you look right stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 10:20 AM

Jim: I do not, as you know, agree with all [or even many] of your views; but I know absolutely that they are sincerely held and come from your deep convictions. They are in no way 'trendy' like the sort of attitudes summed up by that phrase which seems to have won some approval, 'virtue signalling', but a million miles from any such manifestation. It is, for once, by no means you with whom I find myself at odds at the moment.

Best
≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 10:22 AM

"What a crock of shit. Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan are the primary funders and supporters of Muslim extremists"
The Saudi regime enjoys the full support of the West - on the eve of the Arab Spring, Britain launched a massive arms fair to specifically sell arms to Saudi Arabia
You right-wing clowns have yet to respond to the fact that Cameron attended the funeral of the late King while a journalist was being flogged (1,000 lashes) for speaking out-of-turn.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 10:35 AM

I have responded to it, Jim. I am as appalled as you are. I don't think any relations should be maintained with a state with laws and practices like those of Saudi, whatever the diplo/economic consequences might be. You tend for some reason to denounce any views I express which in any way conform to your own as mere "lip-service"; I am still much exercised as to how you purport to know what is going on in my head. But, there, you are without doubt a genuine ❤-in-right-place-er, unlike some I could name - indeed, have named.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 10:41 AM

You right-wing clowns have yet to respond to the fact that Cameron attended the funeral of the late King while a journalist was being flogged

And this has what to do exactly with the fact that Muslim extremism is funded and supported by Muslim countries?

You can run but you can't hide!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 11:27 AM

"And this has what to do exactly with the fact that Muslim extremism is funded and supported by Muslim countries?"
And where exactly has where Saudi draws its support have anything to do with the fact that is has the support of the West - including Britain?
The Muslim countries which you claim to be the main supporters of Saudi Arabia are in no way answerable to the British people - the elected British Government is.
The Government is selling weapons to and openly supporting terroist states in our name - obviously doesn't bother you - it does me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 11:41 AM

"You can run but you can't hide!"
Didn't understand this somewhat melodramatic tailpiece, by the way - a surfeit of Hollywood blockbusters, I suggest.
Should have stuck with the lampreys!
Jim Carroll