BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy

Subject: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 08:21 AM

At the risk of starting another war I link this 2 year old piece from The Guardian.

I wish I had seen it before. When some of the previous flame wars were occurring. It explains far better than I can why I believe the current fashion to re-write wars is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 08:47 AM

Certainly thought provoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:01 AM

You're in good company: @Abu_Sayfillaah

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:08 AM

the current fashion to re-write wars is wrong.

What fashion?
Do you mean history?

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:13 AM

Why not discuss the content of the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:18 AM

Yo, Professor: how about you keep your ignorance of WW I to yourself this time around? Or are you going to ruin this discussion too?

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:22 AM

Guest. Exactly who is it that is in good company?

Keith. I am not even going there. This thread is not about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:31 AM

The thought that article provokes in this veteran is "Build a bridge, buddy, and get over yourself."

Remembrance Day has always been political, whether we like it or not, because it is a sop thrown to the public by governments that spend not only our money but also our lives in pursuit of policies that may or may not do us any good. The proof of that pudding is in the eating, and in many cases we don't get a taste until long after the bills are paid.

As we get older and edge into the third (or fourth, or even fifth) acts of our lives, we have to come to terms with the fact that those younger than us, who are in the thick of the Big Drama of their lives, make up the bulk of the population, and they don't think like us and their consequent actions sometimes strike us as awkward or inappropriate.

I am sixty-one years old and a veteran of the Cold War. My husband is fifty-eight and still serving, with a rack of medals from NATO and UN deployments. Both of us are the children of Second World War veterans, brought up in post-war British garrison culture. We both find today's version of Remembrance Day kinda strange; for example, it jolts me to hear applause from the crowd as the veterans' contingent marches by the National War Memorial, and the practice of depositing poppies on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier strikes me as both sentimental and untidy.

But the applause seems natural to people in the crowd because they see themselves as members of an audience, whereas I think of them as participants in the ceremony, like the congregation in church. The poppies on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are put there by people who think it a gracious gesture, like the bouquets I saw thrust between the bars of the fence around the U.S. Embassy on 12 September 2001, or the teddy bears deposited at the site of an incident in which a child has died. It's not something I would do because it strikes me as undignified.

But it's not about me. Back in the 70s, when you could fire a shotgun across Confederation Square on Remembrance Day and not harm a soul, that wasn't about me, either, although I was freezing my feet on the concrete, or about my Dad, on parade among the naval veterans. Now, when a total stranger wants to buy my husband a coffee in Tim's (much to his embarrassment), that's not about him; he's just the soldier who is physically present when some random nice guy feels the prick of obligation and chooses that way of acting on it. He graciously accepts because to do otherwise would make the random nice guy feel bad.

We happen to be in a time of "better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all" -- a period when civilians are feeling a prick of shame at what some military personnel have endured and how rough their lives can become as a result. It would be nice if that shame could be translated into effective support services for those disabled by PTSD, but I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:49 AM

Looks like it is not just Harry Leslie Smith's view either - Scroll down to comments.

Well said, Charmion. I would not, however, say the original point was solely about remembrance day though. I find the phrase Mr Smith uses - I will no longer allow my obligation as a veteran to remember those who died in the great wars to be co-opted by current or former politicians to justify our folly in Iraq, our morally dubious war on terror and our elimination of one's right to privacy. very significant. Maybe it is just me but the politicians and press selling war as something noble and right just seems wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 11:03 AM

DtG, the politicians and the press *always* peddle the current war as The Great Cause Of Our Time -- that's obvious from most cursory review of editorial cartoons, fund-raising posters, or any other type of ephemera you would care to mention going all the way back to the Napoleonic Wars.

Yes, it's morally dubious. In 1939, the enemy was Hitler and the confluct in view was indeed the Great Cause Of Its Time, and ever since, every Western government preparing to send its armed forces into harm's way has called up that spectre to justify its intentions. "In 1939, should we have stood idly by and let Hitler get away with it? Saddam has weapons of mass destruction! He gassed the Kurds!" And away we go ... or not; Canada sat that one out.

If the government could not paint the conflict in the colours of nobility and right, nobody would sign up to go, and we couldn't have that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 11:04 AM

Huh?
I merely asked what you meant by, "the current fashion to re-write wars is wrong."

I was not aware it was a fashion issue.
I thought it history, which is evidence based not "fashion."

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 11:08 AM

Anything can seem noble and right if you're not the one being shot at.

As someone who has been shot at (and by people to whom I hadn't even been properly introduced!) I will remember the long list of those I knew who have paid, in one way or another, the final price: my youngest brother, Ted; Bob, my oldest friend; Doug, a high school chum; Larry, whose mother was my Cub Scout den mother and with whom I also attended high school and, like Doug, one with who I marched off to war...my father, my uncles on both sides, my grandmothers whose sons were taken off to fight, and the list goes on and on and on.

But I see no need to wear a poppy (although I will if I am given one) or an American flag pin, or much of anything else. Those who know me know and those that don't can either introduce themselves and be friends or can go...nevermind.

I believe it was one Decoration/Memorial Day weekend when someone from Utah stopped at my house and asked why I didn't have a flag out. Rather than giving him the response such a question deserved, I politely replied that I appreciate being reminded -- and placed the flags what had been on my father's and father-in-laws coffins and the (very small) box containing my own medals in the front window. He left mumbling apologies and quite, I hope, embarrassed.

War, which should be the very, very last resort, is far too important to be left to politicians. And as Robert E. Lee said, "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it." And if war is needed, then it should be declared and everyone in the country involved. No more "resolution of Congress" or half-arsed actions such as that -- IF it is necessary for any nation to commit their troops, then it is necessary to commit the nation as a whole...and the leaders should be forced to visit the "bad winds" of military hospitals and front-line medical units...and the graves registration sections that are "up front."

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: gnu
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 12:58 PM

Very well said Charmion and Rap.

My uncle taught me that "Lest we forget." was not to remember the fallen SPECIFICALLY but, more so, was simply to remember "Let's not do that again."

RIP and thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:24 PM

You beat me to it, gnu! The powers that be are trying their best to make sure young people never even know about it, let alone forget. Luckily the young are far more savvy than us, our parents and our grandparents. They have the benefit of global knowledge and can make up their own minds who to believe.

In the words Mr Daltry sings. We won't get fooled again.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: mg
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:44 PM

I think we will be fooled again, and we will be horribly unprepared. Nevertheless, I will wear a poppy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 02:49 PM

My dear Gnome, I hope you're aware that quite a few of the powers that be are young themselves -- check out our new Prime Minister! -- and have many hard lessons yet to learn. I disagree that they are savvier than we old gits; they were brought up on a steady diet of Tie A Yellow Ribbon 'Round the Old Oak Tree and PR photos of toddlers in the arms of soldier parents, always wearing Dad's (or Mum's) beret as they grin for the camera. If I never see that photo again, it will be too soon.

History teaches that every generation has to dree its own weird, and the wheel gets reinvented over and over; same shit, different day. Mr Obama swore with a whole heart to get America out of Afghanistan and to close Gitmo, and we know how that went. In 2006, Mr Harper swore that the Canadians would bring rule of law to Kandahar, but in 2011 we were glad to call it quits in that province after laying 19 kilometers of roadbed. In 2010, we deployed an air wing to the Med to join the NATO bombing mission in Libya in the hope of achieving "regime change" and witnessed the result; then, only four years later, the same gummint sends another air detachment off to bomb Syria. Amnesia, anyone?

Ah, crap. The kitchen floor needs washing, and I need to "changer les idees".

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 03:32 PM

hope you're aware that quite a few of the powers that be are young themselves -- check out our new Prime Minister!

Young in years and young at heart are two different things and anyone who is, or wishes to be, prime minister is disqualified from being young at heart :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 03:58 PM

The simple fact that there was no special mention made of the 200th anniversary of Nelson's death at the battle of Trafalgar on 21th October makes me think that WW1 is relatively getting too much attention.
I can remember my great-grandmother, who met people who fought in the Napoleonic wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:08 PM

Sorry Caterpillar you're 10 years out.

The 200th anniversary of Trafalgar was in 2005 when British and French vessels "re-enacted" the battle.

The ship I used to be crew on took part as HMS Victory

Oh course being 2005 there were no "winners" or "losers"

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:47 PM

Charmion, may I congratulate you on two powerful posts.

That is exactly how I feel about modern society.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:53 PM

The line from the article that struck me is this: The most fortunate in our society have turned the solemnity of remembrance for fallen soldiers in ancient wars into a justification for our most recent armed conflicts.

I was about to be drafted in 1970, and I couldn't bring myself to find any justification for the war in Vietnam. To keep out of that war, I enlisted for four years instead of the two-year draft, but then was released after three years of service. I got a guarantee of German training and assignment to Germany, and I ended up doing intelligence work in Berlin. I did good work, and I think it was worthwhile. I figure the more we know about our enemy, the less likely we are to end up in warfare.

So, I did my time, but I intentionally avoided the war. I can't say I have any particular pride in having served in the Army, but I think I did a good service for my country and learned a lot in the process.

Sometimes I'll wear a pin or a poppy to show I'm a veteran, but I'm conflicted about it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:22 PM

BTW Charmion - I am sure you are right about the young being no more savvy than anyone else. I worded that incorrectly. The emphasis should have been that they are better informed than anyone else has been so should be more savvy. To quote another song, you may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. At least I hope not :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:43 PM

If I can find one, I intend to wear a white feather during the poppy season, in commemoration (not celebration) of those many who joined the forces against their better judgement (whether as volunteers or conscripts) because of fear of social or legal consequences. And of course of those many who remained in the army for fear of legal consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 06:14 PM

When people tell me, "Thank you for your service," I think I'd prefer the sentiments that Paul Burke expressed. I'm certainly one who joined the Army against my better judgment.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:32 PM

I'll stick a quid in the poppy man's collection tin but he can keep the bloody poppy and sell it to somebody else. I hate the poppy-wearing pressure, I hate the auto-poppy brigade on the telly that we see weeks in advance and I hate the military pomp surrounding each Remembrance Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: mg
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 10:16 PM

We as
Re supposed to lay a lot of attention to wwl. That is why we have the holiday.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Kampervan
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 12:02 AM

I totally agree with many of the people posting above who have reservations about wearing a poppy, especially in light of the way that it has almost become 'unpatriotic' to be seen without one at this time of year.

It seems that, despite the ever increasing interest in remembrance day, we (or our leaders) are incapable of actually learning any lessons.

But despite this, one way or another, we must honour the memory of those who died, and the best way of doing that is to demonstrate that we have learned from their sacrifices and put more emphasis on avoiding adding to the ranks of those damaged by war.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 04:37 AM

dave,
The powers that be are trying their best to make sure young people never even know about it, let alone forget.

"The Department for Education and the Department for Communities and Local Government are also jointly funding a project which will provide the opportunity for two pupils and one teacher from every state funded secondary school in England to participate in battlefield tours of the western front from spring 2014 to March 2019. This will be a high quality educational project which will strengthen participants' knowledge and understanding of the First World War as well as giving them the opportunity to develop related projects in their communities. "

WW1 is included in the Secondary Schools History curriculum, and can also be taught in Primary Schools.

Poppies and Remembrance have traditionally been about acknowledging the sacrifices of WW1 and WW2.
What are the lessons "we (or our leaders) are incapable of actually learning?" about those conflicts?

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 04:41 AM

Anyone anything to say about the article in the OP?

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 05:57 AM

Kelso school in the Scottish Borders have annual trips to the WWI battlefields - as do many other schools. Both my kids went on the trips. As Keith suggests WWI is generally one of the main subjects on the history curriculum so the trips tie in with the course. The parents normally go to watch them head off and the kids are lined up as if in a pals battalion as they head off on the bus. Diaries are kept and then when they return they write essays, poems and songs about their experiences. My 16 year old daughter brought me back a CD of WWI songs etc. many of them are quite moved by the whole experience so no I wouldn't agree, certainly not here, than the powers that be hide the war from young people!

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 06:07 AM

"What are the lessons "we (or our leaders) are incapable of actually learning?" about those conflicts?"

If you have to ask the question I doubt you would understand the answer.

I'll wear a poppy for my family who served and died, and also those who served and shared their experiences with me and taught me about war what those in power obviously don't care about or even seek to comprehend.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 09:18 AM

Here is a link from the Scotsman several years back. Every secondary school in Scotland was offered a gvt grant of £2000 to assist in the cost of school trips to WWI battlefields

http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/schools-to-get-cash-for-wwi-battlefield-trips-1-2937206#axzz3qikDACrj

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 09:33 AM

That is really good, Allan, but again I am probably not getting my point across well enough. Sorry :-( I think it is a wonderful thing if the kids go and learn the real meaning of 'lest we forget'. But if they are not taught that war is abhorrent as well, do they really learn by their ancestors past mistakes? I know my kids were all taught of the horrors of war, including WW1. I am interested to see if my grandkids are taught the same. Or will they be taught it is a good and noble thing to go and get killed or kill other people? I am probably worrying for nothing as schools only provide part of their education anyway. But it is still a concern for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 10:19 AM

Well I don't think they came back thinking war is a great thing. The theme very much seemed to be re the vast waste of life and the horror of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 10:25 AM

Glad to hear it! Thanks Allan. Maybe we should do the same trip for politicians and newspaper magnates :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 10:54 AM

But if they are not taught that war is abhorrent as well, do they really learn by their ancestors past mistakes?

I think that everyone knows that, including young people.

Or will they be taught it is a good and noble thing to go and get killed or kill other people?

Of course not.
But they must consider if there is ever a case to defend home and family from the aggression of an evil and cruel tyrant like Hitler or the Kaiser.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 12:42 PM

There,s a siesmic shift, The Kaiser has just become a cruel tyrant just like Hitler. Is there no end to this mans talents?

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 01:52 PM

"cruel tyrant "
Jingoistic, outdated crap.
He was described (at worst),

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 02:03 PM

whoops!!
"cruel tyrant "
Jingoistic, outdated crap.
He was described (at worst), as bombastic and impious and was noted as a poor wartime leader, but that was about it - (after all, - he was the grandchild of her Maj, Vickie (gawd bless her).
On the other hand, our ally, King Leopold II of the (Gallant Little) Belgians, was renowned for cutting the hands off Congolese plantation workers if they didn't meet their rubber quotas, and eventually managed to oversee the massacre of ten million of them - now that's what you can call "Tyranny" with a capital T.
Amazing what you learn by spending a lifetime studying W.W.1!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 02:23 PM

Uh-oh...

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 02:45 PM

WWI was caused by a bunch of treaties -- The Triple Alliance, The Triple Entente, and others -- that provided a "domino effect". Like a bunch of kids shouting "He's my friend! You can't do that to him!" and a schoolyard brawl breaks out -- only in this one millions die. Governments fall (not that they were all lily-white to begin with) and the world changes.

The Treaty of Versailles imposes government-approved looting of German resources, which pisses off the Germans, who follow the rantings of a former Wermacht corporal and blame the Jews for the problems of inflation, unemployment, and so on.

Of course, the glory of the conquered must the restored, so Germany tosses the Treaty and rearms. After taking the Rhineland, Austria, and Czechoslovakia, it makes a treaty with Russia and invades Poland.
Britain and France didn't care before, Hitler assumes they don't care now. He;s wrong and millions die. Of course, his allies, Japan and Italy, also suffer. The whole world suffers, just as it did a quarter century before.

Promises made to various countries during the war so that their support would be gained are kept, but many are broken. France, for instance, promises Indochina independence and reneges; the Vietnam war results and many, many die. Korea is divided at the 38th parallel, and Stalin back Kim Il Sung, who invades in 1950. Millions die, and as usual a country is devastated (this war has not ended and North Korea abrogated the truce a couple years ago).

It all hangs together....

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 04:02 PM

" I know my kids were all taught of the horrors of war, including WW1. I am interested to see if my grandkids are taught the same. Or will they be taught it is a good and noble thing to go and get killed or kill other people?"

Now that last bit - "Or will they be taught it is a good and noble thing to go and get killed or kill other people?" - rather puzzles me. Can anybody dredge up any examples at all of such a thing EVER happening, or any such view EVER having been stated?

Buying and wearing a poppy is in no way a "political" statement - what you are doing is supporting a charity. Attending a national or local commemoration ceremony is an act of remembrance where individuals and associations acknowledge the sacrifices made by others. At no time at all in recent years have I seen any attempt to celebrate or glorify war by anyone. Those who think different have been challenged on this forum to provide examples where any politician in this country has mentioned "celebrating" WWI, they have singularly and notably failed to do so and according to extracts from Hansard only the word "commemoration" has ever been used.

The article linked to in the OP is exactly what I would expect to read in any "Guinard" article on the subject - what else would you expect them to publish.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 05:19 PM

Now that last bit - "Or will they be taught it is a good and noble thing to go and get killed or kill other people?" - rather puzzles me.

Why is that then, Teribums? Can you not understand speculation? Is it not allowed in your little world of homage to your masters? No-one has ever said it will happen. And how come you very obviously omitted the next sentence in the same paragraph - "I am probably worrying for nothing as schools only provide part of their education anyway.". Is it by any chance because you chose to follow your role models, the popular press, in distorting the truth?

Talking of the press. You may note that the Guardian was only the vehicle for the article. It was written by a chap called Harry Leslie Smith who, according to his mini bio, is a survivor of the Great Depression, a second world war RAF veteran and an activist for the poor and for the preservation of social democracy. He has written several books about Britain during the depression, the war, and postwar austerity.

Now, who do I take more notice of, I wonder...

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 05:25 PM

The axe grinders are grinding,
Grinding, grinding
The axe grinders are grinding, my god but aren't they a bore.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,pensée
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 06:01 PM

My Dad (R.I.P.) was in Belgium in '44
steading men about to lose their legs
then piling lost legs and burning them
A good man-
who never wanted to seeEurope again

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 06:11 PM

My dad escaped from a concentration camp
He was happy that the Germans were defeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,pensée
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 06:24 PM

Very brave indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 08:47 PM

I will continue to wear a poppy at this season (albeit a 'pin badge' these days)
I have worn one each year since very young, and did many years distributing them, and organising distribution. (and counting & banking the money).
I will be in church for the Remembrance service on the nearest Sunday (8/11 this year) although I will continue to wear my poppy until 11th/11th.
I occasionally get a new poppy (old ones get lost etc.) but usually re-use an earlier one. This is not being tight-fisted, the donation still goes in the collecting box.
I quietly thank God that I have never been called upon to go to war, and also give thanks for those who did so believing that they were standing up for what was right (no matter what the truth may have been).
They have left us a great example of service. My one time GSM (Group Scout Master) had been a P.O.W. in the far east. He would give us yarns of how the men kept each other going. He never forgave the Japanese, and although I believe in forgiveness, and hope I would be able to forgive in similar circumstances, I am not one who is entitled to judge his lack of forgiveness.

"They shall grow not old,
As we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them,
Nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning,
We will remember them!"

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 09:04 PM

"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori."

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 03:45 AM

"what else would you expect them to publish."
Harry Patch's condemnation of the war would do nicely - he was a true hands-on expert
"Patch told the then prime minister, Tony Blair, that nobody during the first world war should have been shot for cowardice. "War is organised murder," he insisted, "and nothing else." He said that, for him, 11 November was "just showbusiness". Instead, "the day I lost my pals", 22 September 1917, was his true remembrance day. Trench dogs had fought over biscuits snaffled from dead men's tunics, and Patch had thought, "what are we doing that's really any different? Two civilised nations, British and German, fighting for our lives."
Jim Carroll