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Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:33 PM "These 24 people have been placed under house arrest because they have been violent during demonstrations in the past and because they have said they would not respect the state of emergency," Cazeneuve said in a speech in Strasbourg. Who saw that coming? Anyone who understands the concept of the swinging pendulum. Bush pulled the same thing in the US after the Sept. 11 attacks, and managed to convince the House and Senate to vote through sweeping Homeland Security measures that we're still untangling. The patriotic fervor can out shout the voices of reason at times like this. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jack Campin Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:53 PM Aren't ISIS convenient for governments who want to stitch up the 99%? http://newsdaily.com/2015/11/ahead-of-climate-summit-french-use-emergency-laws-to-put-activists-under-house-arrest/ |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Nov 15 - 11:33 AM Most of the news stories these days have shifted focus to Brussels, Belgium, and the neighborhood of Molenbeek. Schools on high security, raids, high tension all around. New York Times story Terrorism Response Puts Belgium in a Harsh Light BRUSSELS — A month before the Paris terrorist attacks, Mayor Françoise Schepmans of Molenbeek, a Brussels district long notorious as a haven for jihadists, received a list with the names and addresses of more than 80 people suspected as Islamic militants living in her area. Follow the link for the rest of the story. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 25 Nov 15 - 11:23 AM Whether intentional or mere dupes...the fans at the venue did not deserve to die. Take it up with pastor What's-His-Name, Guest. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:03 AM Like a LOT of things, it's all fun and games, 'entertaining' and defiant...until the rubber hits the road. Still, an absolute tragedy... GfS |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 24 Nov 15 - 09:32 PM Dear Greg F.... Whether intentional or mere dupes...the fans at the venue did not deserve to die. However, they were Satanistic fans...take a look at these lyrics: Who'll love the devil?... Who'll song his song?... Who will love the devil and his song?... I'll love the devil!... I'll sing his song!... I will love the devil and his song!... Who'll love the devil?... Who'll kiss his tongue?... Who will kiss the devil on his tongue?... I'll love the devil!... I'll kiss his tongue!... I will kiss the devil on his tongue!... Who'll love the devil?... Who'll sing his song?... I will love the devil and his song!... Who'll love the devil?... Who'll kiss his tongue?... I will kiss the devil on his tongue!... Who'll love the devil?... Who'll sing his song?... I WILL LOVE THE DEVIL AND SING HIS SONG!... |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 24 Nov 15 - 08:34 PM Dear Mr. Acme, I have been following this thread since its inception... What in glorious Buddapest are you referring to ? ? ? This is one of the tightest, most focused threads of 2015 ! ! ! Mr. G, this thread has as many troll and off-topic deleted posts as it has posts that appear. Careful tending by several elves have achieved a tolerable thread. We're glad you think so, too. --mudelf |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Nov 15 - 08:08 PM This thread is about the events surrounding the attacks in Paris. Stick to the subject. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 24 Nov 15 - 07:21 PM I don't know about everybody else, but I've had enough of hatred to last me ten lifetimes. When ideologies are worth more than the lives of babies and kids, maybe it's time to rethink wtf we are all about. Want to piss off the partisans from all sides? Refuse to get involved in the hatred paradigm. Not a guaranteed thing, but I'll give you ten to one, fifteen if you insist :-) |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Nov 15 - 01:05 PM Interesting and uncomfortable article in yesterday's Irish Times by one of our better journalists Jim Carroll GRIEVE FOR PARIS, YES, BUT WITHOUT ANY SELF-PITY Lara Marlowe Paris Letter We see death on an industrial scale, but we are selective in our compassion In the hours and days that followed the killing of 130 people in Paris on November 13th, I received an unprece¬dented number of texts and emails from friends and relatives who feared I might have been caught in the massacres. I was touched and amused. The odds were greater I'd be run over by a bus. The well-meaning messag¬es seemed to assume I was on the verge of collapse at seeing my beloved Paris attacked with such ferocity. I went to the Bataclan concert hall, where 89 people were killed, walked the streets, talked to people. And I wondered at my own lack of emotion. Of course, there were chinks in my armour. A few days after the massacre, the evening news began with a photomontage of the victims. I held back a sob. The radio journalist Antoine Leiris lost his wife, Helene Muyal-Leiris, at the Bataclan. He wrote an open letter to her assassins, which was widely published by French media. "On Friday night, you stole the life of an exceptional being, the love of my life, the mother of my son; you will not have my hatred, " Leiris wrote. When he finally saw his wife's body in the police morgue, "She was as beautiful as when she went out on Friday night, as beautiful as when I fell madly in love with her more than 12 years ago. Of course, I am devastated with grief. I concede that small victory to you. But it will be of short duration. " Only a heart of stone would not be moved by Leiris's short text, his determination to raise his 17-month-old son to be "happy and free". Massacre fatigue I nonetheless wondered if I was suffering from massacre fatigue. This year alone, I covered the Charlie Hebdo killings (17 dead), the German- wings crash (150 dead, killed by a suicidal co-pilot), the Bardo museum in Tunis (21 dead) and the beach massacre in Sousse (38 dead). Death on an industrial scale seems an integral part of our lives. But we are selective in our compassion. Some 2, 200 Palestinians were killed in Israel's 2014 assault on Gaza, nearly 17 times the number of people killed in Paris. If no man is an island, why aren't we grieving for the 19 people massacred in a Bamako Hotel on November 20th? Or the 44 killed in Beirut on November 12th? Or the 224 Russians whose plane was blown up by Islamic State on October 3 When asked what he thought of western civilisa¬tion, Mahatma Gandhi allegedly replied, "I think it would be a good idea. " Terrorist attacks bring out the arrogant streak in world leaders. Nine days after 9/11, George W Bush told a joint session of Congress: "They hate our freedoms. " Freedom to kidnap and torture through the practice of "rendition"? Freedom to destroy Iraq and plunge the Middle East into chaos? I couldn't help hearing an echo of GWB in President Francois Hollande's speech at Versailles last Tuesday. Islamic State "fights us because France is a country of liberty, because we are the country of the Rights of Man", Hollande said. A poll conducted for Le Figaro and RTL after the attacks showed 84 per cent of French people are willing to accept limits on their civil liberties in exchange for greater security. The government is in the process of legalising searches without warrants beyond the three-month state of emergen¬cy. Marine Le Pen's National Front is poised to win multiple regions in December 13th elections. All victories, I fear, for the jihadists. Had the attacks occurred in Mulhouse or Roubaix, or in another European capital, they would not have had the same resonance. It is possible to love a place the way one loves a person, and everyone loves Paris. Past trials The shrapnel marks on the defence ministry, from German strafing in the first World War, street plaques dedicated to some of the 1, 600 men and women who died liberating Paris in August 1944, are witness to past trials. As Maurice Chevalier sang during the second World War, "Paris will always be Paris/The most beautiful city in the world. " We need her special genius for creating beauty and conviviality. That will not change. Of the many possible reactions to the attacks, Antoine Leiris's was closest to my heart. Refuse to hate. Refuse to be angry. Continue life as normal. In the aftermath of 9/11, the Polish poet Adam Zagajewski wrote a poem titled Try to Praise the Mutilated World. I've read it many times this week: "You've seen the refugees heading nowhere, you've heard the execution¬ers sing joyfully. /You should praise the mutilated world. " Grieve for Paris, yes. But without self-pity, and without ever losing sight of the millions who have suf¬fered longer and in greater numbers. And yes: we must try to love the mutilated world. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Nov 15 - 10:08 AM The latest wrinkle in the Paris bombing story is that the eighth suspect has gone missing (his cell phone not used since the day of the attacks) and his discarded bomb belt was found in a trash can. His brother has stated that this bomber suspect couldn't go through with it. Others speculate that the bomb failed to explode. Reuters account summarizing recent activity. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 24 Nov 15 - 09:55 AM Pastor Who Hosted GOP: Paris Victims Were 'Devil-Worshippers' After standing with Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee, Kevin Swanson says the 89 people gunned down in the Bataclan "loved the devil." A Christian pastor who hosted Republican presidential candidates a week before the Paris terrorist attack says its victims received divine retribution for worshipping Satan. Kevin Swanson of Generations Ministries said last Thursday that the 89 people massacred inside the Bataclan theater were "devil-worshippers." Two weeks earlier, Swanson headlined his own "Freedom 2015: National Religious Liberties Conference" featuring Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, and Bobby Jindal. Swanson believes God will annihilate America for tolerating homosexuality and seemed to say God already made an example out of the Bataclan. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:27 PM I would however contend that far more have been the victims of sectarian violence, Taliban and ISIS "law", and repression by their own governments than by drone bombing. Oh, well, then that's all right, innit? Sorry to pick on the poor drones. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:28 PM Lighter, I think you are right, collateral meaning "unintended". Coalition forces in the Mideast have at least the tacit understanding that the target is not innocent civilians, the jihadis having the understanding that everyone is guilty and anyone is fair game. Greg F, I'm not saying thousands in the Mideast haven't died. I would however contend that far more have been the victims of sectarian violence, Taliban and ISIS "law", and repression by their own governments than by drone bombing. I'm no fan of drones, except when they root out human cancers like Jihadi John. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:02 AM "All statistics have outliers." 'Data analyzers inspecting tables or figures might decide to exclude from statistical analyses unusual data points sometimes called 'outlier' data points. Statistical patterns and conclusions might differ between analyses including versus excluding outliers.' from http://www.researchgate.net/post/When_is_it_justifiable_to_exclude_outlier_data_points_from_statistical_analyses |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 23 Nov 15 - 07:39 AM All statistics have outliers. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 23 Nov 15 - 07:04 AM To add support to Greg's comment...a package of statistics. www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/03/youre-55-times-likely-killed-police-officer-terrorist.html The French have repostioned the aircraft carrier Charles DeGaul and flights began this morning into Syria. Strange absence of Buttons |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:08 AM Right Ake. Not even an attack in Brussels but the metro, theatres restaurants, schools, businesses all closed now for days. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 23 Nov 15 - 03:55 AM Greg, terrorists don't have to KILL you to make life impossible. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 22 Nov 15 - 08:13 PM They are about to attack our economies, disrupt our daily lives and spread fear and despondency. To quote an lld-time mudcatter: THE SKY IS FALLING! "Spread fear and despondency"? Only if we let 'em. You want to be afraid of something? Be afraid of being killed or maimed by a drunk driver. A hundred thousand times more likely than being injured by a terrorist. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:18 PM The irony is, that should the Islamic caliphate spread its tentacles worldwide, the "liberals" will be the first for the chop. They hate liberal ideology even more than they hate Christianity. Problem number one is....are we prepared for a "Holy War" which could last for decades and involve guerrilla tactics such as we have seen in Paris......have we the stomach for it, will our economies sustain it......I am extremely doubtful. How are we to prosecute such a war, the more we kill in Syria and Iraq the more dangers we face from home grown and foreign trained fundamentalists. A handful can disrupt a whole city for weeks and what about hoaxes to which our service people must respond, it is almost unwinnable. They are about to attack our economies, disrupt our daily lives and spread fear and despondency. A bleak outlook, but there is no alternative available, the Genie is out and our "liberal" brethren pulled the cork. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Nov 15 - 06:56 PM Bang on, JTT. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lighter Date: 22 Nov 15 - 06:00 PM You mean *none* of the damage is collateral. It is 100% primary, being desired and fully intended by the perpetrators. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 22 Nov 15 - 05:58 PM Tell that to the families of the thousands upon thousands of dead civilians, EJ, and get back to me with how they respond, eh? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 22 Nov 15 - 04:16 PM In a world of brutality where no one's hands are clean, collateral damage caused by the use of drones would seem to be much less than damage caused by gunners in a theater, where all of the damage is collateral. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Greg F. Date: 22 Nov 15 - 02:56 PM And then there is U.S drone "warfare"[sic]if you want to talk about dead civilians. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Paul Burke Date: 22 Nov 15 - 02:55 PM people kill hostages and circulate videos You're right, there does seem to be an effect like, we're on a roll. But remember when the media glorified the hanging of Saddam? What I'm really saying is that evil is when ordinary people become convinced that they have the right to treat other living beings- humans primarily, but also animals and plants in other circumstances- as objects. Whether as a video'd burning to demonstrate that we're doing it because we can, or the stratospheric calculations of those who view a hundred thousand deaths as acceptable collateral damage, or the businessmen who see the rainforest as somewhere we ncould be growing palm oil, if only it weren't in the way. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,JTT Date: 22 Nov 15 - 01:42 PM Europe seems set to make the same mistake America did after 9/11 - "They killed our people; well, they're dead, but let's go and kill a lot of other people." Paul Burke is right. But I think he's also wrong, in that there's a kind of intoxication of brutality taking hold, when people kill hostages and circulate videos. They don't realise - and we don't realise - that the means aren't justified by the end; the means change the end. If you use brutality in your efforts to realise your ideal society - whether that's by stoning adulterers and burning pilots to death, or by drone-bombing death-planners and assassinating your enemies - then you will end up with your ideal society tainted by the blood on your hands and the brutality that you have made the norm. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Nov 15 - 12:33 PM It isn't terrorism when it is being done by governments, it's war (crimes, a redundancy if there ever was one). |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:59 AM Russian air strikes in Syria have killed over 400 civilians since September this year, monitoring groups say. The UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) said the death toll from September 30 - when the strikes were launched - until November 20 stood at 403 civilians, a figure that includes 97 children. Does this make Russia a terrorist state? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 22 Nov 15 - 03:04 AM Paul Burke: "So let's try to address this problem intelligently- look first to our own failings. Do we support democracy? If so, why did we not support the demnocratically elected Hamas government in Gaza, and why did we allow the military to take over in Algeria all those years ago?" Why did we allow and facilitate, the toppling of so many leaders, throughout the Mid East, who, thought they were 'dictators' by our standards, but who had stabilized governments. Remember, their culture is different than ours..Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq just as examples. Not only have they had their families' lives and land destroyed, many of them now have nothing..except maybe being paid in their 'Jihad Military'...they have nothing to lose, and in their eyes, with quite a bit of truth, the West has been the source of a lot of social turbulence. We have supplied, at one time or the other, arms and financial aid to both sides of THEIR internal conflicts...and sometimes even backed away from our allies over their....but.. at least the aforementioned countries that had stable leaders, seemed to be able to control a lot of their own internal problems....so ya' got a lot of disillusioned, angry people who have NOTHING to lose. So as Paul asked, "So let's try to address this problem intelligently- look first to our own failings. Do we support democracy?" Note in passing: IF the Senate blocks the refugee bill from being voted on, then I guess the answer, for all practical purposes, is "No". So, what really IS going on?? GfS |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Nov 15 - 09:37 PM Actually those daft typos of mine Paul Burke reposted there are an illustration of how dead easy it is to make stupid mistakes if you doing something in a hurry. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 21 Nov 15 - 08:33 PM The fact that people elect their respective governments in a democratic way doesn't necessarily mean the results of those elections were fair or unbiased in the result. I came across and bookmarked a brilliant essay that I find worth looking at from time to time. It's a ten minute read (but it is not worth much if it's not read and considered in its entirety). https://newrepublic.com/article/88632/failing-democracy-venezuela-arab-spring |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Paul Burke Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:36 PM Even assuming that it's not yje wrong desd bidy Thanks for a (presumably inadvertent) laugh in a desperate situation. Now consider this- that these people might not be simply evil. They might not be just out for the virgins. They might actually think they are doing it for the good of the world, and a few eggs need to be broken if there's going to be an ommelette. They see a corrupt and hypocritical society - in Iraq, Afghanistan, Arabia, Syria, Lybia, France, Britain and almost anywhere you look- and they think they have a way of putting it right. If people would follow Islam properly- not just lip service to bits of it- all would come right. We get paradise on this earth, here and now, no need to wait for houris. They are so committed to the service of humanity that they will willingly die for it, which is what gives them the edge over mercenary or conscript armies, or risk- assessed technology operators. It won't be the first time- I knew Catholics in the 60s who were committed Soviet communists, who knew that the stories about Stalin were just capitalist propaganda. I've known and respected IRA supporters. And I've known Americans who knew that their interventions in other countries were pure in intent. It's probable that there were Nazis who really thought that they were improving the world. So let's try to address this problem intelligently- look first to our own failings. Do we support democracy? If so, why did we not support the demnocratically elected Hamas government in Gaza, and why did we allow the military to take over in Algeria all those years ago? And if we don't, let's stop pretending we do and start saying what our real values are. Gnothe seon - know thyself. And study your enemy as he is, not a cardboard cutout. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 21 Nov 15 - 12:39 PM Bonzo3legs: "72 virgins will be of no use whatsoever if their bollocks have been blown to bits!!!!!" Well sorta...but would they have 'their bollocks' in eternity??...AND most glaringly obvious.. 72 virgins for eternity????..give me a break..72 virgins would last for only 72 days(or nights) in 'eternity'!! Boy! The stuff people come up with to control masses of people....just like politics!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 21 Nov 15 - 11:15 AM That Brazilian was shot by the Brits, not the French, but still, there is a strong possibility of overreaction. I keep hearing that the woman in St. Denis did not blow herself up but not what did happen or how they know it. All my French friends are keeping their peckers up, as the Brits would say, I'm in strong admiration mode. Note that *I* am not being strong unlike the French I know, which is why my admiration is. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Nov 15 - 08:14 AM "In that case then MGOH we should take every opportunity that presents itself to accommodate their desires." Why? |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:13 AM 72 virgins will be of no use whatsoever if their bollocks have been blown to bits!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: akenaton Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:02 AM The problem would be "mission creep".....if the policy was extended beyond Jihadists. We surely don't want an armed Police State. I suppose most armed police officers when in a dangerous position already "shoot to kill" |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Teribus Date: 21 Nov 15 - 02:50 AM "in the case of jihadists, they want to be killed" In that case then MGOH we should take every opportunity that presents itself to accommodate their desires. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 20 Nov 15 - 09:50 PM I doubt jihadists' concerns are a French government concern. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Nov 15 - 09:34 PM A live prisoner is much more valuable than a dead body. Even assuming that it's not yje wrong desd bidy, like Jean-Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian electrician shot seven times in the head while being held down in his seat on the London Tube. And remember, in the case of jihadists, they want to be killed. Shoot-to-kill is doing them a favour, and they don't deserve being done a favour. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 20 Nov 15 - 01:54 PM French Special Forces are excellent. They have the added benefit of a government that seems to mean what it says. France has declared war on Daesh and will pursue its members diligently in countries with which France has good relations. I don't think 'bring them back alive' is high on the agenda. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Nov 15 - 12:41 PM The French helped keep Bamako's incident to fewer hostages, apparently... |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Nov 15 - 12:16 AM The Nov. 13 events on a human scale. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:46 PM Uh huh. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:01 PM Of course, the information would be just as useful to would-be hackers sympathetic to.Daesh. A bit like the Anarchist Cookbook really - equally helpful whoever it is you are trying to blow up. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: GUEST,# Date: 19 Nov 15 - 11:57 AM I think what Anonymous is doing is great. If you wish to help, here's how. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/anonymous-opparis-hacktivists-publish-noobs-guide-fighting-isis-online-1529173 |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM "They like to act on a clever date". In this case Friday 13th. They go to slasher movies it appears. |
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Subject: RE: Paris massacres Nov 13, 2015 From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Nov 15 - 09:47 AM (they close) |
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