BS: Russian bomber downed

Subject: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 10:57 AM

by Turkey.
Russia denies it crossed into the airspace at all, and even the Turks only claim 17 seconds so it posed no real threat.
A protest rather than causing deaths might seem more appropriate.

Russia calls Turkey "accomplices" of terrorists.
It does fund IS by buying their oil, and we all remember how their army watched Kobani fall without firing a shot.

They seem to attack the Kurds more than they do IS.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 11:24 AM

The news yesterday reported that Turkey gave 10 warnings in a five minute period. Today discussions center around how Russia has continually strayed into Turkish air space and this was the last straw. The NATO connection is going to make this complicated, but it will probably go away because of it.

New York Times story today:

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey and Russia promised on Wednesday not to go to war over the downing of a Russian fighter jet, leaving Turkey's still-nervous NATO allies and just about everyone else wondering why the country decided to risk such a serious confrontation.

Seeing who started this thread, I expect it to go pear-shaped in a hurry.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 11:25 AM

Yesterday's news. Why bring it up now?

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:07 PM

Very important news.   I thought it was being avoided.

Russia says there were no warnings, the plane was never in Turkish airspace.....even if it had been, what threat was is posing?

These "moderate" rebels shoot pilots hanging from parachutes and NATO back them up....Putin has it right "terrorist accomplices!!"

The US need to support the Russian effort and President Assad's ground troops.....any who fight against the regime are hindering the overthrow of ISIS and time is running out.
The "moderates" who shot the pilots in mid air and chanted Jihadi slogans are their allies.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:11 PM

Were YOU there? If not don't say things as though they were facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:19 PM

Megan, they very kindly supplied a video of the event.
Did you not see it?....Try to get up to speed please.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:24 PM

what about warning shots then...??

Shooting this plane down on principle just to make a political demonstration, does seem to be verging close to a 'war crime' ?

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:30 PM

Like KAL 007?

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:51 PM

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey and Russia promised on Wednesday not to go to war over the downing of a Russian fighter jet, leaving Turkey's still-nervous NATO allies and just about everyone else wondering why the country decided to risk such a serious confrontation.

Ii take it you mean "the country" which decided to risk this serious confrontation was Turkey.

Actually I suspect it wasn't "the country" who took the risk. More likely some nutcase at a lower level. That's how wars can start.

So far as I can see the Turkish authorities accept that the plane was not over Turkish territory when it was shot down. The main difference between the two accounts is that the Turks cllaim the plane had been over Turkish territory for 17 seconds before leaving it, and being shot down, and that they gave verbal warnings in Turkish, and the Russians deny both those claims.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 01:05 PM

Back in the 1950s a flock of geese were interpreted by the DEW line radar system as being a Russian missile attack. Military intelligence ain't what it used to be and never was (with apologies to Will Rogers).

Games of one-up-manship at this level can be very dangerous because the data has to be dealt with very quickly, and mistakes happen. Mistakes with nuclear powers involved can be extremely costly.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 01:18 PM

If Keith A of Hertford and Akenaton are involved in a thread, it's best to to try and address it objectively. They aren't The UK's best advert for grasping issues, although twisting them to odious agendas tends to be their strong point.

We do not know if Turkey air space was compromised nor whether the pilots were being provocative to Turkey. The chances of finding out are about zero anyway.

I do wonder why Turkey made a decision to play the game although Russia's intention appears to have been carried out. Not sure of the logistics but no country's military is capable of playing the long game anyway. If it was a test of NATO unity, it was ill judged.

Dangerous times and less place for assertive bollocks. Even if true to form.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 01:36 PM

For the best all round if Turkey offers up the head of the pillock who ordered the shoot down ?

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 01:54 PM

Prime minister?

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 02:13 PM

Turkey aren't going to give up Erdogan.

The frightening thing is that Turkey is in NATO; we are pledged by treaties to defend them if Russia attacks, even though in the Syria war they are fighting on a different side of this multifaceted conflict.

Let's see: Britain, Europe officially, and the USA are attacking IS or whatever they are called in the media this week. They support, but not militarily, the "Rebels" whose main raison d'etre is to oppose the Syrian state forces of Assad, but are also fighting IS. The rebels are a coalition which includes secular liberals, but also Islamist militias.

Assad, allied with Hezbollah and Iran, is fighting the rebels, but also IS.

Turkey is allied to NATO which includes US and UK, but the conservative (i.e. Islamist) Erdogan governmentm recently democratically re- elected with a big majority, supports IS but can only to so sneakily, and their support is confined to finance and harrassing IS opponents. The Turkish army, the biggest in NATO after US, who in the past have staged coups to remove the threat of Islamist rule, are a not very clever lot who operate a sort of Schlieffen plan. Whatever happens, attack the Kurds, and are happy because Erdogan is happy with that too.

The Kurds, whose main aim is a Kurdish national state, are fighting IS because IS took over chunks of Kurd liberated territory. They are the most dependable allies of US and UK but are proscribed by them as terrorists and denied military material support. Iran, Iraq, Russia and Turkey are militarily opposed to the Kurds, Iraq being however a bit hors de combat on that front at the moment.

The Iraqi government only wants the US to clear their oilfields (free of charge) so they can get back to selling it to get money to gas the Kurds and Shias. Oh yes, Shias, we'd forgotten about them. They would fight IS themselves if there was anyone left in the country who wanted to fight (for the government that is).

France are doing their own thing as always, but it does seem so far to be mostly against IS as far as we can make out.

And Russia, don't forget Russia, they want to join in to fight the "terrorists" in Syria just like the US and UK and France. But their main interest is to support Assad, so they will bomb IS if they are a problem, but mostly it's the rebels and the Kurds. And the Turkomans who no one had heard of till this week.

Israel are keeping quiet, being very happy to see Assad looking the other way and Palestinians whether secular or not lumped in with IS in the international mind.

Who've we forgotten in all this? Not the loyal ally of the West, Saudi Arabia surely? One sometimes wonders what they do with all that money.

So the solution is bomb the enemy and support our allies! If only we could work out who either of them are.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 02:37 PM

Mostly right - except that the Iraqi government is Shia controlled. And the Turks are attacking one lot of rebels, the Kurds, who are opposed both to Assad and. Daesh (aka Isis, but they shouldn't be called that), and they support another lot of rebels who are opposed to The Kurds as well as Assad and Daesh. And there are some rebels, approved by the UK and others, who aee actually informally allied to Daesh.

This is a grotesquely confused civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST,Little Robyn
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 03:52 PM

Watching TV news video an hour ago, first they show the plane being shot down, then show the surviving pilot talking to reporters - with his back to the camera. He doesn't want to be identified! Why not?
He doesn't look like someone who has just survived an attack in the air. What a miracle - not a scratch on him??? And he's telling the reporters he wasn't in Turkish airspace and they weren't given any warnings.
I find it hard to believe that he was the person in the plane - of course he doesn't want to show his face - someone might identify him as an actor.
If he had a bandage on his arm or a scratch on his face, he might be believable but this guy can't be real, surely???
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST,raggytash
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 03:57 PM

Working on the basis it was more than a few hours ago he might have had a shower, shit, shave before talking to the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 04:27 PM

Turkey, defending the ethnic Turk population in Syria from the Russians, is no different from Russia's policy of defending ethnic Russians, wherever in the world they live - see Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 05:03 PM

It is hard to see any potential "innocents" in this situation.

Russia is known to push boundaries to test adversaries. Who knows who the Turks support in this conflict at any given time?

NBGiven the close proximity in the conflict, and the different interests, the likelihood of friendly (or, not so friendly) fire is high.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 05:09 PM

Shooting an airman who has ejected from a plane that has been desrroyed as he comes down in a parachute is not. Friendly fire. In fact it would generally be classed as murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 05:14 PM

"Turkey, defending the ethnic Turk population in Syria from the Russians, is no different from Russia's policy of defending ethnic Russians, "

There is the slight difference that many of the "Turkomen" are Islamic fundamentalists; as could be deduced from their remarks over the dead body of the pilot whom they had just shot in his harness.

Time to forget the "cold war" and grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:18 PM

A pilot who has been bombing your people is a legitimate target of war as contrasted to the hundreds of civilians, including nearly one hundred children, killed by Russian bombs. The Russians have no business killing civilians in support of the tyrant Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:44 PM

Assad has been fighting IF for decades....and without his troops all the bombs will be useless American or Russian.

If it walks and talks like a Jihadist....it probably is one, whether Turkish, Syrian or Iraqi.
Without Assad's Army the war will be lost, no one in the West is interested in putting "boots on the ground."

As I said months ago, where are all the "moderate" rebels in Libya?

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:49 PM

The dick-waving contest has begun. If NATO and Russia get into it, we've all had it.

I'm gonna put my head between my thighs
Pucker up and kiss my ass good-bye"
Robert Hunter, "End Of The World Blues"

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:50 PM

The Wall Street Journal reports that Assad is enabling ISIS by purchasing oil from them brokered by financiers in Putin's kleptocracy.....oh what a tangled web we weave!

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 07:17 PM

Did either the state of Turkey or Russia shoot down a pilot on a parachute? That is an after the fact happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 07:20 PM

According to BBC news this afternoon, one pilot, and one marine sent in to rescue him were killed.
No mention of any casualties to other factions involved on the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 03:43 AM

Did Turkey make any attempt to rescue the crew, who fell just outside the border?
No.

It is illegal under the Law of Armed Conflict to fire on parachuting aircrew. Their parachutes are white to distinguish them from paratroops.
A Russian rescue helicopter and rescuers were fatally attacked too.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 04:59 AM

I am with Keith on this one. The Turks have behaved very stupidly. I presume that the Russians will now take out the Turkomen in Syria. Lets hop they can be persuaded to stop there.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 06:44 AM

"In a written statement, the Turkish armed forces said it had made great efforts to find and rescue the pilots of the plane and that it had also called military authorities in Moscow and expressed readiness for "all kinds of cooperation"

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:56 AM

The guy who shot the pilot in the air was not a fundamentalist. He has been named as Alparslan Celik, a member of the Turkish "Grey Wolves" fascist militia.

What seems to me to be going on, from what I know about Turkish politics: the Turkish "deep state" - secular nationalist/Kemalists, sponsored by NATO since the 1970s - have been running weapons to their spinoff groups in Syria and probably Iraq. As with every other ethnicities in the region, the Turkmen are not politically homogeneous; they have given significant support to Communists and Baathists over the years, probably less so the Islamic fundies.

The "deep state", associated at the public level with the Turkish armed forces and the MIT secret police, and at the covert level with NATO's Europe-wide secret army Gladio and its Turkish spinoff Ergenekon, is not run by Erdogan. But they're too powerful for him to get rid of them.

The "deep state" has an ongoing nationalist war with Kurdistan, which they are not willing to stop; Erdogan has no particular reason to continue it, but he's the monkey and they're the organ grinder. For a while (long before the rise of ISIS) they were using pseudo-Islamic proxies as death squads against Kurdish activists. They recently revived this strategy with the Suruc and Ankara bombings (which between them killed more people than the Paris attacks).

The gun-running across the border is in support of different forces. The Turkmen fraction allied to the Grey Wolves are more dependable allies for the "deep state" than ISIS, and it looks like the Turkish military has been doing their best to arm them to the teeth. A large convoy was fired on recently, with neither end wanting to identify themselves:

https://www.rt.com/news/323538-turkey-convoy-syria-attack/

The most likely explanation is that this was a supply operation to the Grey Wolves from their sponsors in the Turkish military, and the Russians shot them up.

Meanwhile, Turkey is getting oil on the cheap from ISIS, so they have to hedge their bets and leave somebody else to fight them.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:16 PM

Meanwhile, Turkey is getting oil on the cheap from ISIS

As is Assad so that is probably why the Russians have, up to now, concentrated their attacks on the moderate rebels and made only cursory sorties against ISIS, that and to placate their population and the rest of the world who are under the illusion that Russia is there to fight ISIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:24 PM

Moderate rebels?    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:20 PM

If I was a young intelligent educated Syrian - i'm pretty certain I'd want to eff off out of all that brutal chaos
and risk the lesser dangers of escaping to Europe...

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:51 PM

If I was a young intelligent educated Syrian - i'm pretty certain I'd want to eff off out of all that brutal chaos
and risk the lesser dangers of escaping to Europe...

And leave others to fight for your country.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:54 PM

And leave others to fight for your country.

Troll (and/or asshole) alert.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:04 PM

The Syrian Kurds in the thick of it certainly wouldn't agree with your assessment Greg F, but I guess you would know more about the situation than they.

Kurds Mock Men For Fleeing Conflict While Women Stay And Fight

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:04 PM

Daresay a GUEST who can source and link that image, is well aware of the online videos
of gratuitous mass shooting and throat slittings of unarmed civilians
by whatever brutal thuggish faction has taken control of a village at that particular moment...

fight for what country ??? all normal definitions have broken down into murderous insanity...

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:09 PM

The Wikipedia article on the Grey Wolves is pretty informative about the web of connections they're involved in, though it underplays the sheer horror of their activities in Turkey in the late 1970s and hasn't caught up with what they're up to now in Syria and Iraq:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization)

Tail-ending on other people's civil wars is their thing. Ultimately, they are agents of NATO bringing disavowable destruction and bloodshed to NATO's enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:28 PM

fight for what country ??? all normal definitions have broken down into murderous insanity...

There are some groups in Syria who only have Assad's regime to count on: the Alawites, Christians and Druze. The one thing that unites all the opposition factions is that they want those three groups exterminated (they'd want to exterminate the Communists as well, but they've probably all been killed by now). For them the definition of the country is the same as it always was.

For the US, Saudis and Israel, exterminating the Alawites was always the main point of starting the war, so they can get on with destroying Iran next. None of them give a damn what happens to the Christians and Druze in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:47 PM

Lest we forget, the conflict began as a peaceful, pro-democracy protest against the autocratic rule of Assad. Arms were taken up only after security forces fired on unarmed, peaceful demonstrators.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:45 PM

The hell it did. There had been armed resistance to the Ba'ath for decades. The guys with guns were ready to move in as soon as their "unarmed, peaceful" patsies gave them an excuse. It's a routine the US has used over and over again; throw a few pennies to a group of liberal suckers to martyr themselves while the big bucks go to the psychos who escalate the resistance into an orgy of barbarism.

What we are now seeing with ISIS, the al-Nusra Front and the Turkmen fascists is that some of the people Assad was brutally repressing actually needed to be repressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:57 PM

Sorry Jack, despite your ideologically driven contention that the US is behind every conflict, the current one in Syria began as a popular uprising.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:37 PM

You probably believe the Arab Spring and Solidarity in Poland were "popular uprisings" too. (Gutless wonders who don't give their names will generally believe anything).

The first example of this strategy I remember following on the news was the overthrow of Allende, which had a boycott by the poor oppressed trucking firms as its leadup. I doubt whether even those selfish wankers expected to kick off months of mass murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 05:14 PM

Right Jack, I hear they were also behind the Peloponnesian War.....the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Russian bomber downed
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 05:44 PM

Jack is perfectly correct regarding the "Arab Spring".
Destabilisation was the name of the game, whether it was intentional or simply "liberal" stupidity is debatable.