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Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird (Ward?)

keberoxu 25 Nov 15 - 10:43 PM
GUEST 26 Nov 15 - 04:49 AM
keberoxu 26 Nov 15 - 09:34 AM
GUEST 26 Nov 15 - 09:48 AM
GUEST 26 Nov 15 - 10:16 PM
keberoxu 27 Nov 15 - 04:01 PM
keberoxu 28 Nov 15 - 06:21 PM
Felipa 19 Jul 16 - 03:56 PM
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Subject: Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird (Ward?)
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 10:43 PM

The name on this thread has come up, when looking at literature references for the aisling, Roisin Dubh. Here on Mudcat, threads that discuss Roisin Dubh often as not will mention Red Hugh O'Donnell of the Flight of the Earls. I don't see any mention here -- and I have searched here -- of Owen Ward the Red, or Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird; and my searches of Mudcat threads fail to connect him with Roisin Dubh. These other researches/studies, though, refer to Owen Ward the Red as part of O'Donnell's camp, and more particularly as his bard. In short, they say Ward / Mac an Bhaird is the bard who wrote the aisling, rather than O'Donnell the earl writing it.

Do you disagree? Or is this too confusing?


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Subject: RE: Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird (Ward?)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 04:49 AM

You'll find some of this poet's work here:

http://tionscnaimh.fng.ie/index.php?fng_function=4&fng_file=L226.TXT

but they all seem to be the usual praise poems or Caoines for various O'Donnells. Could you
post the first verse of Roisin Dubh so that it is clear which of the several versions you are
referring to?


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Subject: RE: Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird (Ward?)
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 09:34 AM

It would be the version translated into English by James Clarence Mangan as Dark Rosaleen; that was how I came across the name of Owen Roe Ward/McWard.


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Subject: RE: Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird (Ward?)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 09:48 AM

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/180696


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Subject: RE: Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird (Ward?)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 10:16 PM

Here are three views of the poem, I don't know if any of them are correct but I don't think that there is any evidence to suggest that it was written by Eoghan Ruadh.


HARDIMAN, IRISH MINSTRELSY: Roisin Dubh, Little Black Rose, is an allegorical ballad, in which strong political feelings are conveyed, as a personal address from a lover to his fair one. The
allegorical meaning has been long since forgotten, and the verses are now remembered, and sung as a plaintive love ditty. It was composed in the reign of Elizabeth of England, to celebrate our Irish
hero, Hugh Ruadh O'Donnell, of Tyrconnell.

SAMUEL FERGUSON, REVIEW OF HARDIMAN: This, says Mr. Hardiman, is an allegorical political ballad, it seems to us to be the song of a priest in love, of a priest in love, too, who had broken his vow, of
a priest in love who was expecting a dispensation for his paramour, of a priest in love who was willing to turn ploughman for his love,s sake, nay, to practise the very calling of a priest to
support her. And why, in the name of holy nature, should the priest not be in love? and why, in the name of sacred humanity, should the priest not long to enjoy his love?


DONAL O'SULLIVAN, BUNTING'S ANCIENT MUSIC OF IRELAND: There is no reason whatever to suppose that the "original" song was composed in Elizabethan times for Red Hugh O'Donnell, who was Chief of
Tirconnell, not Prince.


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Subject: RE: Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird (Ward?)
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 04:01 PM

If Roisin Dubh was authored that long ago, and in such turbulent conditions, then I guess we will never be certain about the author's exact identity, and so be it.

There are reference works who maintain that Anthony Raftery wrote Roisin Dubh. To me, the timing seems off; but I don't think they are going to change their boilerplates for all that.

The Owen Roe Ward/MacWard argument appears impossible to establish more certainly. At least one reference work carefully explained that there was an entire family of bards in question, and that in fact Mac an Bhaird means son of the Bard -- how would you ever know which was which.

Not a few opinions in print point right at Red Hugh O'Donnell, he of the Flight of the Earls. The Owen Roe argument actually stems from this one, it appears, as the bardic family in question is said to have attached itself to The O'Donnell office, whichever successor of the O'Donnell family would be holding it, and to have been part of the ruler's "camp," "entourage," or whatever. The opinions I refer to here, however, come right out and say that after Red Hugh left Ireland, never to return, he authored Roisin Dubh himself in exile. How very romantic.

If anything different or interesting catches my eye on the subject, I will submit it here. However, I don't intend to make people get emotional or butt heads with each other. I only wanted to consider the controversy around the identity of the author.


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Subject: RE: Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird (Ward?)
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:21 PM

Talking of controversy:

Well, I could have titled the thread differently, with Origins: Roisin Dubh or something. I think there might already be one or two threads with that title, but I recall doing a search through them, and this question of authorship was touched upon casually if at all.

Now yet another possible author comes up.

This time we are in County Mayo, in Ballyhaunis, and one of the many Costellos there is credited with writing Roisin Dubh. This supposition puts the approximate date as the latter 1500's. One of the journalists following this line of inquiry, goes so far as to say that the Costello in question is identified with the Augustinian Friary at Ballyhaunis. Is that why Samuel Ferguson carries on, as he does, in the quote in an earlier post on this thread, about a priest?


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Subject: RE: Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird (Ward?)
From: Felipa
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 03:56 PM

I had not seen this thread when I mentioned Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird on one of the Róisín Dubh threads today. This article has interesting references to poets of the clans, including Eoghan Ruadh Mac an Bhaird and the O'Donnells.
but I havent seen any convincing evidence re the authorship of Róisín Dubh. If you look at the words and accurate enough translation by Pádraig Pearse I copied into http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=13339 Lyr Req: Roisin Dubh (The Small Black Rose)
Lyr Req: Roisin Dubh (The Small Black Rose) - thread #13339 , you will see that the song may well be the words of a priest in love with a woman


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