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BS: Romans Discovered America?
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Subject: BS: Romans? From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Dec 15 - 11:03 AM Ancient Sword 'Could Prove Romans Discovered America Before Columbus' http://news.yahoo.com/ancient-sword-could-prove-romans-discovered-115403473.html Looks like they need to look at that "shipwreck" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: Stu Date: 18 Dec 15 - 11:32 AM What have the Romans ever done for us? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: GUEST Date: 18 Dec 15 - 11:47 AM Suddenly I remember the Time Team episode where the whole site turned out to be a hoax with genuine artifacts placed in the ground by the previous owner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: olddude Date: 18 Dec 15 - 11:48 AM Well there work with concrete was nothing short of amazing. I saw a great tv show. It was awesome |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: Jack Campin Date: 18 Dec 15 - 11:50 AM Al-Qaeda doesn't call you lot "Romans" for nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: meself Date: 18 Dec 15 - 12:02 PM Now I'm not a journalist - but if I thought there was enough to this story to report it in the first place, I think I'd get a comment from someone with a little more attached to his name than "Investigator" (even if his name is 'Pulitzer'!). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: GUEST Date: 18 Dec 15 - 02:24 PM This, like a previously reported wreck containing jars, doesn't prove the Romans "discovered" America. Some ships may have accidentally arrived there. But, if they didn't get back and report their findings, the place wasn't exactly discovered in the usual sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Dec 15 - 02:41 PM Years ago, Katlaughing posted a song by Nancy Schimmel, daughter of Malvina Reynolds. Abby Sale's happy? archive made not of the song, too. 1492 marked the conquest of the Americas by Europeans, but not the discovery of anything. Thread #26214 Message #313939 Posted By: katlaughing 07-Oct-00 - 12:33 AM Thread Name: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco Subject: LYR ADD: 1492 by Nancy Schimmel
1492 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: Penny S. Date: 18 Dec 15 - 04:03 PM That guest was me - forgot that this computer randomly deletes me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: Greg F. Date: 18 Dec 15 - 05:43 PM Oak Island, huh? Obviously, the sword was dropped by the Knights Templar on the way to being buried in the "Money Pit". HOAX! As is the "Roman Ship" this idiot claims he found. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Dec 15 - 08:37 PM Well I've wandered around Pompeii and Herculaneum and Stabiae and Pozzuoli and many Roman sites in Cyprus, north and south, too, and have been gobsmacked every single time. Not to speak of the amazing archeological museum in Napoli. Very subjective I know, but I don't give a damn. I love it! And the pizzas in Napoli...! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans? From: Rapparee Date: 18 Dec 15 - 08:54 PM Pommel looks Celtic. "Discovered" means finding something nobody else has, or at least you don't think they have. But like the songs says, the place wasn't empty. Once it might have been, but that was a loooooooooooong time ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Dec 15 - 11:42 PM The trouble with the Roman ruins I've seen around the Mediterranean, is that they all look Greek - so the tendency is to credit it all to the Greeks. Looking at it another way, I think it's quite impressive how the Romans showed so much respect for the cultures that preceded them in the lands they conquered. I certainly didn't expect to find Roman ruins in Alexandria or Israel, but there they were. And many of the ruins in Asia Minor come from Roman times, although they appear to be Greek. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Dec 15 - 12:32 AM Stu - LOL! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 19 Dec 15 - 02:06 AM The Vikings were in the New World Four hundred years before Culumbus arrived. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Mr Red Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:36 AM discovered America doing what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Paul Burke Date: 19 Dec 15 - 08:30 AM "It changes all of our history on this side of the pond." It doesn't. It may be genuinely ancient, but if it spent 1500 years on the seabed and didn't rust away, it's bronze not steel. The Romans were an Iron Age culture and a bronze sword would have been as quaintly olde-worlde to a legionary as a longbow would be to a marine. And if it was in a scallop bed, it ought to be encrusted with aggregated seashells. And while it's perfectly possible, though rather unlikely, that a Roman ship could have crossed the Atlantic (given very good weather), they would probably have taken Columbus's southern route and landed in Cuba rather than Nova Scotia. The Vikings arrived there a few hundred years later, but that was because they were setting off from Greenland and already on the top, return part of the Atlantic currents and wind patterns. But let's accept that a Roman ship survived the Atlantic crossing, either by going right round the current or by going the easy way, then ignoring the West Indies, Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas etc (and even bypassed New York), and got wrecked on that inhospitable Northern island. To change anything at all about American history, they would have had to survive and have some influence, cultural or genetic, on the inhabitants they encountered. The Mikmaq language shows little evidence of this. Take the Declaration of Human Rights: Msit mimajulnu'k weskwijinu'ltijik alsumsultijik aqq newte' tett wkpimte'tmut aqq koqwajo'taqnn wejkul'aqmititl. Omnes homines dignitate et iure liberi et pares nascuntur. Ratione conscientiaque praediti sunt et alii erga alios cum fraternitate se gerere debent. Though the poor Roman sailors with their cargo of antique weaponry would have found either formulation utterly incomprehensible, I'll leave the reader to decide which one contained more words they woyuld have found familiar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Paul Burke Date: 19 Dec 15 - 08:52 AM Unsurprisingly, a superficial googling turns up that the "discoverer" of this artifact is a paid-up member of the Nutters' Club. There's a lot more where that came from, including JHP endorsing the idea that the Pyramid of Khufu is one of Joseph's granaries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Ed T Date: 19 Dec 15 - 09:38 AM "It wasn't easy looking dignified wearing a bed sheet and a purple cape." ― Rick Riordan If som I suspect they went there in the summer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Ed T Date: 19 Dec 15 - 09:40 AM If so, not som:( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Stu Date: 19 Dec 15 - 09:53 AM "Stu - LOL!" They've bled us dry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Greg F. Date: 19 Dec 15 - 09:59 AM Imagine The Bearded One believing & promoting something nonsensical for which there is no factual evidence. Who would have thought it possible! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST,Ed t Date: 19 Dec 15 - 09:59 AM "Advice to explorers everywhere: if you would like to recieve due credit for your discoveries, keep a detailed account of your journeys as Columbus did. On Septemeber 28, 1492, after four weeks at sea, he writes: Dear diary...I means journal. Yes, dear journal. That's what I meant to say. Whew. Anyway, we have yet to discover America, and the crew has become increasingly rebellious. I have decided to turn back if we have not spotted it by Columbus Day. Will write again later if not killed by crew." Cuthbert Soup, Another Whole Nother Story |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST,Ed t Date: 19 Dec 15 - 09:59 AM "Advice to explorers everywhere: if you would like to recieve due credit for your discoveries, keep a detailed account of your journeys as Columbus did. On Septemeber 28, 1492, after four weeks at sea, he writes: Dear diary...I means journal. Yes, dear journal. That's what I meant to say. Whew. Anyway, we have yet to discover America, and the crew has become increasingly rebellious. I have decided to turn back if we have not spotted it by Columbus Day. Will write again later if not killed by crew." Cuthbert Soup, Another Whole Nother Story |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 19 Dec 15 - 12:01 PM Even assuming all claims about the sword and the shipwreck are valid, and that the ship was not simply a windblown derelict, it's still incorrect to say anyone "discovered" anything. The ship sank, the crew died, the expedition was a failure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Rapparee Date: 19 Dec 15 - 02:52 PM I noticed the green on the sword and wondered about bronze. If bronze and if "real" the sword is a lot older that is stated. Personally, I'm very, very, very, very, very skeptical. If there is a ship let a team of experienced marine archaeologists do the work, because if it is Roman it's a fantastic discovery. I don't think it is anything of the sort. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST,Arkie Date: 19 Dec 15 - 03:20 PM This discussion has been interesting but far from complete on stories of ancient explorers reaching North or South America. There are also accounts of Phoenicians and explorers from Carthage reaching these shores. Local, to Stone County, Arkansas, songster, Jimmy Driftwood wrote a song about Saint Brendan, an Irish monk crossing the ocean before 600 AD. Brendan wrote an account of that journey that described crystal palaces, mountains spouting fire, and monsters with catlike heads. A modern day explorer built a boat matching the description of the one used by Brendan and encountered icebergs, volcanoes, walruses, and whales. Columbus supposedly had a copy of Brendan's maps. Of course there are skeptics. A version of St. Brendan's Fair Isle can be found on Youtube. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Paul Burke Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:52 PM The Brendan Voyage, Shaun Davey's composition and featuring Liam Og O'Flynn on pipes. There are skeptics, and sceptics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: kendall Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:06 PM Then again, there are those native Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: LadyJean Date: 19 Dec 15 - 11:01 PM It is, I suppose possible that a Roman ship was blown off course and wound up on Nova Scotia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 19 Dec 15 - 11:35 PM Joe Offer You got the rhyme and date all wrong. I distinctly remember it from Richard Armour's short history of America,"It All Started with Columbus," from when I was in 10th grade: To wit: In fourteen hundred, ninety-three, Columbus sailed the deep blue sea. Consider yourself corrected. JotSC PS-Mr. Rosenheimer, AmHist teacher, got it wrong also. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Reinhard Date: 20 Dec 15 - 02:36 AM You can buy this Special commemorative sculpture bronze sword, handle roman statue for 75 Euros from eBay Italy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 20 Dec 15 - 11:50 AM Mystery solved! It wasn't Romans! It was time traveling space aliens who bought the sword on Italian eBay for 75 Euros last week and then threw it in the ocean two thousand years ago! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST Date: 20 Dec 15 - 10:32 PM Not only Roman sailors got blown offshore- it happened to others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Paul Burke Date: 21 Dec 15 - 05:32 AM It's almost certain that many people got blown out into the Atlantic. The point is that there is no discernible evidence of any of them having any effect on any culture in either of the Americas, apart from a very tenuous trace of Vikings (used as a genberic term for seagoing Scandinavians) in Newfoundland, and a possibly rather more frequented presence on the islands north of the Canadian mainland, such as Baffin Island. The Vikings had very good ships, designed for Atlantic travel- though mostly sticking to the eastern seaboard where the best raiding territory was, they colonised the Shetlands, the Faeroes, Iceland and Greenland. And the only thing really stopping them colonising parts of America was lack of manpower because of the far richer pickings elsewhere- Ireland, England, France (they became the Normans), Russia, North Africa, Byzantium. When it came to colonial conflict, a few dozen people with iron age weapons didn't have a sufficient advantage over thousands with stone age weapons. It took thousands of gunpowder age invaders to create permanent colonies. Romans, Welsh, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Irish. Berbers etc. had boats designed for daytime fishing and coasting. They didn't carry water for the two to three months it takes to cross the Atlantic, let alone the problems of food and heavy seas. I think a lot of people imagine the Atlantic to be like the park boating lake, and not a lot bigger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Donuel Date: 21 Dec 15 - 09:03 AM ibid ! Welcome back b-bruce. Respectfully I always saw you as the ungiving anvil on which evolutionary facts and truths are forged. You are necessary often in your wrongness for us to see the rightness in an alternative perspective. Be there a method in your madness or just normal exploration, it works. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Rapparee Date: 21 Dec 15 - 09:21 AM Quite so, Paul. I believe that the Sagas that tell of the first Viking voyage to "Vinland" state that the ship was blown off course and the "discovery" was accidental. The settlement in L'Anse aux Meadows was abandoned after a time; I suspect that it was looted for anything useful after the Vikings left and whatever was found was then scattered. I do not believe that a lost group of Welshmen wandered around North America and eventually fathered the Mandan tribe (or perhaps they were in North Carolina) or that a lot of other things that are claimed are true. I have seen and handled a coin, unimpeachably found in a barn in Ohio, which was unequivocally a tetradrachma from the time of Alexander the Great. However, neither I nor anyone else believed that Alex rampaged around the upper reaches of the Cuyahoga River. Nor do I believe that the well-attested-to Roman coin found at the bottom of a post hole here in Pocatello, Idaho indicates that a Roman Legion fought the Shoshone as they traveled the Oregon Trail. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: EBarnacle Date: 21 Dec 15 - 10:52 AM Even so, whether they were deliberately sailing West or at the mercy of a storm, various adventurers, including the Basques, did arrive alive. They may have been in terrible condition but they were alive. There is strong evidence that the Basques discovered the Grand Banks and were fishing there well before Columbus sailed. There is also evidence that the Chinese visited about 70 years before Columbus. You can find out more of this by referring to Samuel Elliot Morrison's "The European Discovery of America" as well as other texts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Greg F. Date: 21 Dec 15 - 10:53 AM You are necessary often in your wrongness for us to see the rightness in an alternative perspective. Necessary? Hardly. "Wrongness" of the Bearded type is patently obvious without having to be given endless servings of garbage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Paul Burke Date: 21 Dec 15 - 11:30 AM "There is also evidence that the Chinese visited about 70 years before Columbus." All of it made up from the whole cloth by one G Menzies, tripologist extraordinaire. The Basque discovery of Newfoundland preceded Columbus (if it did) by less than a hundred years. It followed a vast improvement in the suitability of European ships for Atlantic conditions, largely the result of framed, carvel- planked construction replacing "stitched" clinker construction. This in turn allowed ships to support the more advanced sail systems that allowed them more freedom to sail against the prevailing Atlantic wind and current systems. The Basques probably didn't accidentally discover the Grand Banks (if they did) by being blown there. They were using the new ship technology to exploit hitherto inaccessible fishing grounds, including Iceland (as were English fishermen). That would have taken them fairly naturally round the top of the currents to Labrador and Newfoundland- just as it did the Vikings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST Date: 21 Dec 15 - 12:15 PM I discovered America in about 1988. It wasn't quite like the fictitious place Hollywood would have you believe but to be fair, no evidence of the Romans. They brought culture and class wherever they went. The America I saw served greasy pieces of chicken in a bucket. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST Date: 21 Dec 15 - 12:38 PM The America I saw served greasy pieces of chicken in a bucket. If you came from the UK that was probably an improvement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Greg F. Date: 21 Dec 15 - 12:49 PM The America I saw served greasy pieces of chicken in a bucket. As opposed to greasy pieces of plaice and potatoes in a newspaper? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Paul Burke Date: 21 Dec 15 - 02:53 PM Plaice? Blasphemy. Silver hake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST Date: 21 Dec 15 - 02:58 PM Yeah but you lot do it by choice. We used to do it by need and now occasionally by tradition. It tastes of food too. Col Sanders secret ingredient? Salt mixed with grease. Uurrgghhh. I suppose if you leave a bucket of greasy chicken long enough it might develop a culture. Something over there has to.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: Greg F. Date: 21 Dec 15 - 05:31 PM Yeah, well, then there's mushy peas ..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST Date: 21 Dec 15 - 05:53 PM I make the best mushy peas in the world. The snag is, a lot of commercial places make them and they taste like peas. Not good. Soak dried marrowfat peas with the tablets dissolved overnight. Rinse and recook in salt and sugar water gently for about four hours. Got some soaking ready right now in fact. I make about 30 servings in a large stockpot at a time and freeze them in small freezer bags. Best with home made pie and mash. A bit of mint sauce on them doesn't hurt either. Fish dish? That'll be scallop, black pudding and mushy peas. At least one enterprising sod got a Michelin star for that idea. You see, stick to steaks. You can do them. Eggs benny, you are ok with that too. After that, everything goes downhill. McShit, KFC etc make us feel guilty for not trying harder in the war of independence. You obviously weren't ready. You still don't know how to use a knife and fork correctly. Not that your taste buds would get a better deal if you did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 21 Dec 15 - 07:00 PM Where is Erich von Däniken when you need him? Then again, Nero Claudius Drusus (12BC) did take a fleet of almost 1000 ships into the North Sea. Wouldn't be impossible for one to drag anchor out to sea or get "blown off course." Pesky Romans. btw there's an entire wiki of these things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories btw2 More KFC in London than you can shake a drumstick at. One just down the way from the Natural History Museum. Mmmmm cultures! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 21 Dec 15 - 07:06 PM Not apropos the subject however, two things to keep in mind on the so-called pre/post Columbian dividing line: 1. Generations: Roughly sixteen generations between the founding of the Icelandic colonies in Greenland-Newfoundland (sanctioned by the same Alþingi that governs Iceland today) and the arrival of Columbus in the Caribbean. It was a slave economy with the main export being walrus ivory, white gold in the Mediterranean. The Roman Catholic Church (sanctioned by, same-same &c) got its tithe for pretty much all those 16 generations. 2. Roman Catholic Church: 1126AD Greenland ordained its first Catholic bishop. 1152 Diocese of Greenland, Iceland, the Isle of Man, the Orkney Islands, and the Faroe Islands made subject to Archdiocese of Nidaros, Norway. 1202-03 Greenland Bishop Árnason pilgrimage to Rome and audience with Innocent III &c up through the Hanseatic League (Holy Roman Empire) era. The Basque? Ignatius of Loyola, 'nuff said. And of course it was next door neighbor Isabella the Catholic (aka: I of Castile) who packed Columbus' lunch. The RCC had been keeping book on North America for almost four hundred years (13 great-grandfathers) before Columbus. Same song, different verse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Romans Discovered America? From: EBarnacle Date: 21 Dec 15 - 07:31 PM Paul, I did not say that the Basques were blown there. I did say that more than a few were blown there. No one knows for sure how the first of them arrived but they were a major seafaring nation. As far as Menzies is concerned, other than pooh poohing his concepts you have not demonstrated that he is completely wrong. He may not be. |
