Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative

Subject: Folk Singers/Politically Conservative?
From: GUEST,Rita
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 07:35 PM

I was wondering if there are any folk singers, known or somewhat well known who are more conservative politically? I only know of singers who are or lean more towards the liberal side (politically.)
Their songs reflect that or when seeing them in concert they talk about it to some degree.
Of course, if any are more conservative - they may not discuss it or make it known. Just curious.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: Hollowfox
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 07:57 PM

In an interview in 1964, the late Theodore Bikel remarked that it's hard to find a right wing folksinger. I know politically conservative, sane storytellers, though.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 08:09 PM

Is there a problem with being a folksinger on the "political right" ?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 08:46 PM

Isn't that what most country singers are?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 08:49 PM

Really, quite a sweeping statement Stereotyping perhaps?

---

Not using our Mudcat name on this one? Why not, pray tell?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 09:21 PM

As far as I can tell the only discernible between folk singers and traditional bluegrass bands is the songs they play and where they stand politically. Even if, say, some of Seeger's songs may be more "bluegrassy" than another band, he is always considered "folk" because he's more likely to sing "folk" songs and they're more likely not to. Traditionally folk singers are liberal and country/bluegrass singers are conservative. Sometimes, the difference is in their political leanings or place-of-origin only.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: GUEST,same guest as above
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 09:22 PM

But more on topic, here is a link

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/13/folk-music-conservative-political-tool/?page=all

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 09:30 PM

Folk singers are liberal, country singers are not. Am I reading this correctly so where does Mike Seeger fit ?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: GUEST,Guest of 09:22 PM
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 09:42 PM

PETE Seeger, not Mike

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 09:55 PM

Mike Seeger is liberal, he sings country music, was my point. I just find that putting people into these kinds of slots is a very narrow view. There are many people in all kinds of music who have different world views, it,s called diversity.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: GUEST,Guest of 09:22 PM
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 10:12 PM

We're talking stereotypically here, are we not? The point of this post was to find exceptions to the stereotype.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conserv
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 10:18 PM

Exceptions to stereotypes is a contradiction of terms. It implies that the stereotype is the correct view. It isn,t of course, that is my point. I have to say that I find this liberal and conservative thing a very American construct.. In means different things in different places.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 11:18 PM

It really helps for posters to identify themselves by a consistent name. All these anonymous Guest posts are confusing. Yes, I know that "the rules" now allow anonymous posting, but I think it's confusing and an impediment to discussion.

I would say that the vast majority of those who sing the second generation (revival) of what is considered to be "folk" music, are politically liberal. The majority is large enough and vocal enough to scare the few conservatives away. In addition, the "folk revival" was home to left-leaning political and labor songs. I have met conservatives at song gatherings. They keep quiet about their politics. Some have told me they feel uncomfortable by the anti-conservative conversation that surrounds them.

On the other hand, many of the sources of traditional songs were political conservatives - the singers the collectors collected from.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 11:24 PM

Very, very sorry.... I a a guest one a two others. Didn't,t mean to be anonymous, was just not paying attention. Apologies once again.

---

Okay. Tossed cookies is an acceptable reason for anonymity. :)

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 11:36 PM

Sometimes, I think that people who know old songs handed down through their families, are scared off by the liberal politics of folkies, and then these valuable sources don't have a chance to share their music with us.
Liberal political music is an important part of the folk tradition, but I think it can be off-putting to some.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 11:50 PM

. . . and liberating to others!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Sandy
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 12:05 AM

Joe's comment in last post, "Liberal political music is an important part of the folk tradition, but I think it can be off-putting to some."   This is quite true. I used to see Joan Baez in concerts a number of times over the years because I loved her voice, just loved to hear her sing besides just listening to her albums at home. So although I knew she would probably get into her political views at the concert, I still went to hear her sing. However, sometimes she would be "off-putting" and sometimes I felt she could go on a bit too much at a concert venue about her politics during the 60's & 70's.
And yes, I did know this about her beforehand but was just hoping at each concert that she would not go into this big political talk too much. Even though I was leaning more towards conservative views, I still would not want to hear a singer go on too much on their conservative views either at a concert.

I loved to hear her sing - she was one of my favorite folk singers.
Her voice to me was just stunning and this beautiful soaring soprano folk voice in the 60's, 70's, etc.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 01:13 AM

"I have to say that I find this liberal and conservative thing a very American construct"

Non-Americans may find the 1992 documentary "Bob Roberts" informative on the subject of Hollywood, conservative politics and folk music in particular. A (stereotyped) Catholic is conservative on birth control and liberal on capital punishment. AME Baptists are pro-civil rights if that doesn't include the LGBT community, etc. So to paraphrase Butterworth, "The measure of a man's liberalism is by how much we agree."

Arlo Guthrie is a card-carrying Republican. So there is that:

"I haven't shifted my thinking at all. I've shifted my membership to where it might make a difference. Anyone who knows me knows what my political opinions are. They've been basically the same for over 50 years. A stance on an issue cannot, and ought not, be made simply by identifying with others who may have other opinions. People who bad mouth me because I'm a 'this' or a 'that' should remember what the McCarthy era was all about -- guilt by association. It's not right, and it's not American. And I don't mind making a point of that from time to time. In fact, I enjoy it."

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:23 AM

I think to be on the folk scene you have to be community minded - I'm not sure if that is classified as right/left wing.
In a session you play things people want to hear or join in with. At a concert different tunes/songs to please. We try to only do local barn dances - this keeps the cost down for the ( mostly )charities as well an minimising folk miles. Is this left/ right?
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:29 AM

Mike Seeger sang old timey music not country and western. Earl Scruggs Bluegrass at one point opposed the Vietnam war.,political positions are not always clear cut it is possible for a person to be right wing on one subject and left on another

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:52 AM

Without kick starting the "what is folk" nonsense debate again, I think a better way of differentiating is to ask who performs to their personal creed and who performs to entertain?

I have no brief for Lord Barnard but used to sing about him. Reed cutting in Norfolk is something I know sod all about but his daughter provided a cracking song.

Also, you mellow with age. In my teens and early twenties I might have been slightly more political and left leaning. These days, songs of social justice only stay in the list if they are narrow enough not to alienate anybody in the audience. We can all sing Vin Garbutt's excellent City of Angels, but one of the business entrepreneurs typical of those demonised in the song now owns my bloody football club!

A better example of course would be Martin Carthy playing "Siege of Delhi."

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 04:01 AM

My late dear friend Peter Bellamy was politically rightward leaning -- tho always careful not to go to the extreme of his father Richard Reynhard Bellamy who was one of Sir Oswald Mosley's main deputies in the 1930s British Union of Fascists and was interned under Regulation 18b during WW2 -- he wrote a memoir called We Marched With Mosley later on; tho Pete was ambivalently proud of him, I recall.   

I sing folksongs [google - http://www.youtube.com/user/mgmyer - for my Youtube channel] & generally vote Conservative these days because I respect my local MP of longstanding who is a Tory, tho while his predecessor Clement Freud, whom I knew quite well, lived, I voted for him, a Lib Dem. But, in terms of the thread title, I guess you can include me in as MOR inclined more to right than left. Many a battle I have had on this forum with Jim Carroll et al as a consequence! It was not so in earlier days -- in the General Election of 1964 which brought in Wilson's government, our Cambridge home served as a Labour Party local committee room. Guess I moved rightish-wards in my 40s: a familiar route; as the old saying, variously attribd in various versions (google!) avers: "He who is not a socialist at 20 has no heart; he who remains so at 40 has no head".

Solidarnosc in Love·Of·Folk however!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 04:58 AM

Most of the online surveys which purport to analyse one's political views place me as a socially liberal conservative.

Folk song has long been used to express political views, especially those on the left, and the folk music revival of the 50's and 60s was closely linked with left-wing politics and protest songs. Those with different views are perhaps less likely to turn to folk music as a vehicle to express them, and those who do may be greeted with hostility rather than debate. This arguably leads to a perception that because political songs and comments at folk events are most likely to be from a left-ish point of view it means that the whole of the audience is in sympathy.

I don't believe this is necessarily true. It assumes that music and politics are always interlinked, which for many people is not the case. It may be difficult for those whose interest in folk is inextricably tied up with their politics to understand that others may be interested in it for other reasons which do not involve politics. It is also possible to enjoy a performance, and to recognise the passion and songwriting skills used to put forward a point of view without necessarily agreeing with it. It is sometimes forgotten that in many cases both right and left recognise where there is social injustice but differ in the solutions they propose, so I may acknowledge the truth of the song whilst disagreeing what to do about it. And of course, many folk songs don't carry a political message at all.

It is probably true that a large proportion of a folk audience is more or less left-leaning politically, and certainly it appears that part of it feels more ready to express those views. In previous threads on this topic some have expressed surprise, even horror, that there might be folkies who aren't on the left. However most people go to folk events to enjoy the music, rather than get involved in political arguments, and simply ignore the politics. I suspect that there is a much broader range of political views than some believe, they are simply not expressed.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: PHJim
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 05:31 AM

Tom T Hall - Hello Vietnam
Barry Sadler - Ballad Of The Green Berets
Merle Haggard - Okie From Muskogee
Merle Haggard - The Fightin' Side Of Me
Dave Dudley - What We're Fighting For
Autry Inman - Ballad of Two Brothers
Victor Lundberg - An Open Letter To My Teenage Son
The Spokesmen - Dawn Of Correction
The Battle Hym Of Lt. Calley
Calley apologises

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Thompson
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 05:40 AM

How strange that the term 'lliberal' should have changed its usage, if not its meaning, after a couple of centuries of meaning gently open-minded.

From the Online Etymological Dictionary:

liberal (adj.) Look up liberal at Dictionary.com
mid-14c., "generous," also, late 14c., "selfless; noble, nobly born; abundant," and, early 15c., in a bad sense "extravagant, unrestrained," from Old French liberal "befitting free men, noble, generous, willing, zealous" (12c.), from Latin liberalis "noble, gracious, munificent, generous," literally "of freedom, pertaining to or befitting a free man," from liber "free, unrestricted, unimpeded; unbridled, unchecked, licentious," from PIE *leudh-ero-, probably originally "belonging to the people" (though the precise semantic development is obscure; compare frank (adj.)), and a suffixed form of the base *leudh- "people" (cognates: Old Church Slavonic ljudu, Lithuanian liaudis, Old English leod, German Leute "nation, people;" Old High German liut "person, people").

With the meaning "free from restraint in speech or action," liberal was used 16c.-17c. as a term of reproach. It revived in a positive sense in the Enlightenment, with a meaning "free from prejudice, tolerant," which emerged 1776-88.

In reference to education, explained by Fowler as "the education designed for a gentleman (Latin liber a free man) & ... opposed on the one hand to technical or professional or any special training, & on the other to education that stops short before manhood is reached" (see liberal arts). Purely in reference to political opinion, "tending in favor of freedom and democracy" it dates from c. 1801, from French libéral, originally applied in English by its opponents (often in French form and with suggestions of foreign lawlessness) to the party favorable to individual political freedoms. But also (especially in U.S. politics) tending to mean "favorable to government action to effect social change," which seems at times to draw more from the religious sense of "free from prejudice in favor of traditional opinions and established institutions" (and thus open to new ideas and plans of reform), which dates from 1823.
Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. [Ambrose Bierce, "Devil's Dictionary," 1911]
liberal (n.) Look up liberal at Dictionary.com
1820, "member of the Liberal party of Great Britain," from liberal (adj.). Used early 20c. of less dogmatic Christian churches; in reference to a political ideology not conservative or fascist but short of socialism, from c. 1920.
This is the attitude of mind which has come to be known as liberal. It implies vigorous convictions, tolerance for the opinions of others, and a persistent desire for sound progress. It is a method of approach which has played a notable and constructive part in our history, and which merits a thorough trial today in the attack on our absorbingly interesting American task. [Guy Emerson, "The New Frontier," 1920]

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 06:50 AM

I've asked this question before and I to find it interesting. Certainly here in Scotland the vast bulk of folk performers do seem to be left wing and also a substantial majority seem to be quite pro-independence too. Not sure if those type of leaning people are drawn to folk music or if people are swayed by their contempories once in the folk world. I know there are exceptions but from experience the bulk, whether Scots born or English incomers, are left leaning pro-independence supporters. Much more so than the regular audiences in local clubs who are much more mixed and seem to have a far higher percentage of unionists! No scientific stats behind that just experience as it has been openly discussed for several years now!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 07:22 AM

That Rita was in my cab the other day. She `ad a clipboard or something like it and it looked like she`d been gathering info about singers and their political leanings.
I said, "Morning Reet`, you gonna put all this on that Mudcat then?"
She said, "That`s right Jim. I want to find out if there is some sort of link between folk musicians and politics. You and your lot `ave been doing all the clubs for years, do you find it predominantly leftish?"
I said, "Yeah, there`s always some bleeding heart, tree `ugger giving it large on political correctness, but not us, we steer clear of all that"
She said, "Why`s that then?"
I said, "If we got into mouthing off about `ard luck stories and `ow many immos ought to come over we`d never get the good reviews in "The Daily Telegraph" which has proved to be a nice little earner!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 08:02 AM

Non-Americans may find the 1992 documentary "Bob Roberts" informative on the subject of Hollywood, conservative politics and folk music in particular.

It was a spoof, not a documentary. And a bloody good film.


A better example of course would be Martin Carthy playing "Siege of Delhi."

He learned it from Hamish Henderson, whose attitude to military pipe music seems to have been that it was to be celebrated as a creation of the Scottish working class, no matter that they were in uniform when they created it. Hardly anybody who plays it now cares in the least about the other military traditions it was once associated with.


Certainly here in Scotland the vast bulk of folk performers do seem to be left wing and also a substantial majority seem to be quite pro-independence too.

Just look at fiddle and guitar cases. They mostly have either a saltire or a YES sticker on them, and I don't think I have ever seen one with a Union Jack. (Or for that matter a Confederate flag, though I would find that easier to imagine if a bluegrasser was carrying it).

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 08:13 AM

Allan Conn -
"I've asked this question before and I to find it interesting. Certainly here in Scotland the vast bulk of folk performers do seem to be left wing and also a substantial majority seem to be quite pro-independence too."

I got to know Hamish Henderson and remember vividly my conversations with the person I consider a great man. At one moment he was preaching the Socialist International and a few minutes later he sounded like the leading advocate of Scottish Independence. He seemed to feel that there was no dichotomy in these views.

I was interested in the post by Mike Grosvenor Myer (who has been around even longer than I have!) explaining that he has drifted rightwards in his political thinking during his life. As a sixth-former and student, I was very left thinking in my views. As I grew older I became more of a centre-left thinker, mainly because I disliked the undemocratic way of the Militant Tendency. Things changed after the coming of Blair and I moved back towards the left again. At least, that may be what happened. I think that as what is regarded as the 'centre ground' in British politics moved rightwards, I remained where I was. I am one of those people who says, "I didn't leave the Labour Party, the Labour Party left me."
Currently, I am very excited about the breath of fresh air that Jeremy Corbyn has brought to British politics and think that he has the potential to be the best prime minister since Clement Attlee. He will need to develop a greater statesmanship that he has shown so far but if he develops the ability to unite the broad church that the Labour party always was then he could engage the support of SNP, Greens, Lib-Dems etc. to overturn the most atrocious right-wing government that has existed in my lifetime.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 09:13 AM

In this thread, as in others, you are entitled to post anonymously. Provide you accept that an anonymous mederator, can post an inane remark, under said post
Dear old Mudcat, same name, same clique.
Less members.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: voyager
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 09:48 AM

Burl Ives

voyager (anonymously)

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 10:55 AM

John MacKenzie, I too found the "moderators" remark a bit odd. But then I find Mudcat is sometimes inconsistent with regard to its own policy regarding anymous guests. Why the "moderator challenged my accidental guest posting in such a public way is a mystery. I was going to ask why, but was sure I would not have gotten an answer.
   As to the subject at hand. I find that very few people are totally left or right. Most seem to be somewhat in the middle.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 11:40 AM

Yes Burl Ives got me into folk music, and Lonnie Donegan.

Then I got caught up in "political" folk, which really ruined the genre. I now concentrate on the tradition and the old singers, many of whom are socially conservative.

Real folk music transcends politics, its about melody and human emotions......and we all have them.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 11:45 AM

I would just add that most "professional" folk singers that I have encountered have been grasping skinflints, even worse than the "popular" performers.

I could give you a huge list of "capitalist" folk singers :0), some would surprise you.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 11:52 AM

Jim.....you're beginning to get a wee bit TOO cynical....even for me! :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 01:29 PM

Do you actually know any professional folksingers, Ake?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 01:30 PM

I got the impression Peter Bellamy was non political, although I do recall his wife Jenny writing that when they were together he was inclined towards the Green party.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 01:58 PM

And an unexpectedly socialist one:

Gene Autry: The Death of Mother Jones

https://talkinsocialism.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/episode-52-the-most-dangerous-woman-in-america/

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: beeliner
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 02:59 PM

Tom T Hall - Hello Vietnam, Barry Sadler - Ballad Of The Green Berets etc.

Excellent list, thank you.

There were more-or-less right-wing "answer" songs to Barry McGuire's "Eve of Destruction" ("Dawn of Correction") and Buffy St.Marie's "Universal Soldier" ("Universal Coward"), which, as I recall, was by Jan and/or Dean.

There are also lots and lots of really disgusting songs, racist and otherwise, by various far-right performers.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:07 PM

Dick Miles:-
"I got the impression Peter Bellamy was non political, although I do recall his wife Jenny writing that when they were together he was inclined towards the Green party."

I think that Dick is right in challenging the statement that Peter Bellamy was "politically rightward leaning". He stayed with us every time he was in Sussex, whether this was after a gig at ours or other clubs or whether he was visiting the Coppers or was in Sussex for other matters.
In my opinion, for what it is worth, I thought of him as a talented, highly intelligent, well informed, argumentative, bloody-minded, politically aware, unpredictable, stimulating, thought-provoking individual. To this day, I can't make up my mind whether I liked him or not. Certainly, every time he was here we argued late into the night on a wide range of subjects.
The strangest argument that we had was the first time that we met after The Transports had been released. One review comment had got to him; someone had called it a flawed work. I gave him my opinion that it was it was one of the most important works that had come out of the folk revival - head and shoulders above most songwriting in this genre - and I spent ages praising it whilst he was running it down always coming back with that phrase that had got under his skin.

I can remember once trying to pin him down on his attitude towards conversations when there was a group of people talking. I told him that I thought that he was 'oppositional'; that he was quiet for the first part of a conversation then whenever a consensus had been reached, his voice would be raised against it and then he would argue his assumed position against all comers.
He listened patiently to me saying all this and then smiled guiltily and said quietly, "You bastard, Smith."

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:14 PM

He doesn't know any folk singers, no. Someone famous once had a bad gig in Dunoon in the late '60s and he has formed his warped opinion on the basis of paying two and six to watch it.

He thought Rufus Wainwright was brilliant till he found out he was gay. Then he started saying how crap he was.

Ignore him. His whole wretched life seems to be everybody else's fault.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:25 PM

Michael Portillo was certainly Conservative.

He will be seen visiting the monthly shanty session at the Baltic Fleet, Liverpool, on his railway journey from St Helens to Knutsford.

To be broadcast on BBC Two at 18.30 on Thursday 7 January, 2016. You can hear a clip here;

Baltic Fleet

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Mark Clark
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:30 PM

I think performers who earn any kind of living from their music tend to choose or write material they feel will resonate with their audience. I personally know upper echelon bluegrass musicians who hold liberal political views. We may not hear it reflected in their music because like many people, they hold their views as personal. They aren't political crusaders, they are entertainers trying to produce an excellent product. I suspect many country performers are also in that category.

Merle Haggard was mentioned earlier. Merle is definitely a proud patriot but that may be different than being a political conservative. Consider his great hit, "If We Make It Through December." Definitely an underdog kind of song in a category with, say, Merle Travis' "Sixteen Tons." Many people know Merle's coal mining songs but don't realize he wrote those under pressure from his record company who insisted he do an album of "folk songs." Merle was a great commercial songwriter and musician who was just trying to please his audience and the music business honchos.

I would guess that people who primarily perform songs advocating political points of view are not making what we might call a living doing it. I would also guess that their audience is not large compared to quality acts who are in it for the music.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:43 PM

Michael Portillo as far as I am aware is not a Folk singer, he is a lot of things but not as far as Iam aware a FolkSinger he came from a Spanish back ground and some of his relatives had left wing views, any way well done Julia Batters.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:55 PM

Any singer, or musician, who jumps out and makes political identity, either on the 'right' or 'left' can count on losing half their audiences....and why do that, if that person really has something to say?? Sometimes the people who most need to hear a wider message, that their political bent may be, might not listen to someone as close, if they feel that they have been 'categorized' (read: 'profiled') as someone who is from 'the other side' ...which in reality is utter nonsense. We are actually all one....unless you suffer from a mental disorder called 'political delusions of grandeur'.
Music should strike a resonating node of unity. ...should a song of common sense engender hostile division...or awaken a common thread that unites through reaching that place of common sense????
Methinks that political hacks have co-opted and exploited perfectly sound commonality into 'your side' vs 'my side'...and this political group is hipper that the other one. Both have their strong points, and both have their nonsense....just ask. 'the other side'!!
For me, music has been a wonderful canvas to articulate the emotions of the angst within humans....where 'BOTH sides' (read: 'ANYONE') can 'get it'!!! A PERFECT example......and it applies to EVERYONE!!
....BUT, ...but instead, (politically speaking)....we're here!!


GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 04:03 PM

I enjoyed the clip of the singing at the Baltic in Liverpool and I am certainly glad that it will be having a place on mainstream British TV. However, I do not think that anything political can be deduced from this. Michael Portillo is employed as the presenter (and a very good one too, in my opinion) of the TV series Great British Railway Journeys just as he was on the previous successful series on Continental Railway Journeys.
His input into the background research and script writing is not likely to have been significant.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 06:38 PM

Johnny Cash and Kris Kristofferson were ardly right wing in many of their songs and Nanci Griffiths (Texan) along with Emmylou Harris could join them on the female side. Saying Country is right wing is, in my opinion, shown to be incorrect by all the country songs written that show extreme exception. Some singers, folk and country, will be right wing but to generalise country I think is so sad.

I sing and write folk and country songs. Most are not political but deal with affairs of the heart. Of the songs I have written to make a point I suppose many would say are left wing or liberal. One is about being a street girls, another about being a refugee. Being called liberal in such circumstance is a compliment, whoever it comes from or in what tone it is delivered

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 06:57 PM

Yeah, but for every Emmylou Harris there are - how many? - right-wing tossers like this:

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/country-music-legend-just-threw-support-behind-trump/

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 07:44 PM

Everybody's morals do a flip-flop on some issue I don't care what they say.

Canadians are the most unfailingly polite pipples on the planet. They've even arraigned for one of Justin Beiber's hit songs to be titled "Sorry."

But Alberta hockey moms? Oh.My.Gawduh...

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 08:12 PM

IMO, Kenny Rogers is a roaster of the first order irrespective of his predictable political views.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 08:48 PM

Right wing, left wing, same bird.

Stan Rogers, in "The Idiot", gives a vivid picture of the attitude a young single man might take. He is too proud to go on welfare. Does that make the song "off message" and Rogers a rightist? I don't care. It's a good song and makes me feel I've been there.

And then there's Kipling, the racist, imperialist, & sexist, who was in touch with reality & could put words together. As Orwell remarked many years ago, he is with us yet, while more politically correct people have been forgotten.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 09:06 PM

Interesting concept, " political correctness", I always thought it a bit scary.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 09:53 PM

@ jack campin    Scary huh? I confess at being shocked reading that article and comments below it. Maybe he wants a gig in the White House though I can think of better ways to get one!

However, I remain steadfast in believing most country songwriters are not right wing and, even if they are in mind, would they really be so in practice? I certainly would hope not.

Would it be too liberal to show concern for a wotld that looks bleaker by the day? I certainlg have to wish to see a whole creed of people ostracised and rounded on because of the actions of a few. Have we learned nothing from the late 30s and early 40s when someone else wanted a whole creed exterminated? Is this not how it started?

Forgive my thread creep and digression. This would be for an entirely different thread

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 10:20 PM

I think it suits this thread quite well.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 10:56 PM

Arlo Guthrie a Republican? Say it isn't soo!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 11:57 PM

Joe F: "Right wing, left wing, same bird."

I've been saying that on Mudcat for about 8 years...thank God it's catching on!!....sorta like folk music!!

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Jon Bartlett
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 12:38 AM

I am intensely conservative. I'd like to conserve people's jobs, soldiers' lives, the clean air (what remains of it) and clean land (ditto): most of all, clean speech, which is one of the nicer things found on Mudcat and not found everywhere (and not found always here).

FORWARD WITH CONSERVATISM!

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 03:23 AM

Clean speech?

Well you can *^%**!!!! for starters.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 03:47 AM

"I think that Dick is right in challenging the statement that Peter Bellamy was "politically rightward leaning"."
We met Peter at a concert he did with Walter Pardon at Cecil Sharp House, not too long before he died.
We had a long and somewhat sad conversation with him during the break where he expressed his alarm at not getting enough bookings.
The reasons he gave were, "My right-wing views and my Larry the Lamb impressions".
Sorry Vic; it doesn't come closer to the horse's mouth than that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 04:23 AM

"My right-wing views and my Larry the Lamb impressions"

Jim, that sounds to me more like a parody of what he felt were the views of others, than his own opinion of himself. Like Vic I had some late-night arguments with Peter over politics (amongst other topics) when he stayed over after the folk club, and he was always most insistent that he was not of the political right, but studiously apolitical. What he did claim was that the folk club network was run by lefties who wouldn't book him because they perceived him to be right-wing, a claim I disputed.

He certainly was a contrarian, who loved arguing for the sake of it. "What's this second-rate music you're playing me?" was typical - and you were expected to justify your choice. It was easy to make the assumption that someone who unleashed such vitriol on the political left was in fact of the right, but he claimed it was merely Devil's Advocacy. I was never entirely sure, though.

"I would just add that most "professional" folk singers that I have encountered have been grasping skinflints"

Ooh dear, bang to rights there!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 05:57 AM

"more like a parody of what he felt were the views of others, than his own opinion of himself",,,

Perhaps so, but I can't see quite what difference that would make. Pragmatically and practically, the outcome would be the same -- no bookings. It is others' perceptions which count, surely, in such situations. & I still feel that Pete's views really were quite rightward-leaning & not quite as apolitical/MOR as has been theorised or represented above (or as, according to some, he might have claimed for himself). As an example, I remember him once, on a visit to us, speaking vehemently in disfavour of any sort of 'positive discrimination', which he said was inevitably bound to have the effect of arousing envy & resentment.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 08:13 AM

Ted Nugent. He's a right wing folk singer. There you go - stereotype shattered.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 08:45 AM

Jim wrote:-
'We had a long and somewhat sad conversation with him during the break where he expressed his alarm at not getting enough bookings.
The reasons he gave were, "My right-wing views and my Larry the Lamb impressions."

If Peter perceived you as a leftie (and who know? in conversation you may possibly have come across as such!) that is exactly the sort of awkward cuss comment that I would have expected from him. He has been described above as oppositional (V. Smith) and a contrarian (B. Peters). I'm sure that Brian will have had that I don't get all the bookings I deserve conversation with Peter as regularly as I did. It was fairly useless to tell him that in spite of his huge talent, his strange manner in font of an audience and because of the qualities that that have been ascribed to him earlier in this paragraph, he wasn't the easiest person to present at your club or have staying in your home. It was only because he was such a fascinating and unique performer that we continued to book him.

Brian wrote:-
"....loved arguing for the sake of it. "What's this second-rate music you're playing me? was typical - and you were expected to justify your choice."
Spot on, Mr. Peters! In my case, he would pick up copies of fRoots, ED&S etc. lying around the house and search for articles or reviews by me and then berate my opinions, particularly my enthusiasms, the style of my writing, my choice of words, sentence construction and anything else that came into his mind. The only way to remain on an even keel was to change the conversation to every awful action that I felt he had displayed - and there were many of them going back to the days before YT when I had met him for the first time in Norwich when I was still at school.

Now mention of Brian Peters beings us to the case currently before the courts of:-
THE CROWN v. BRIAN PETERS on a charge of BEING A GRASPING SKINFLINT.
We have already heard the defendant admit "Ooh dear, bang to rights there!" and I would to present to the court this photograph taken of a merchandising desk at Lewes Folk Festival 2013. The court will call this Exhibit A.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 09:01 AM

Interesting thing, this right or left wing.

In any other social gathering other than a folk club, you could point to the predominance of white middle aged men and make a socio political statement.

Being a bit of a collector of guitars, I sat recently and added up the insurance claim should the pub catch fire during a club night in a nearby town. Eleven guitars, combined value, about £18k, give or take. Slightly different to the clubs thirty five years ago..

I doubt affluence is related to chippy whinging, which some people substitute for pointing out injustice.

Just to add to the Bellamy bit. I only met him to speak to once when we booked him for a festival. Other than getting it off his chest regarding the folk market not being able to sustain full time careers, he didn't come over as right wing to me. Although, I doubt I have ever judged people based on a preconception of their views.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 09:20 AM

I must have been peculiarly blest; but I seldom, if ever, had the sort of difficulties rubricated here with Pete. He stayed with us many times, and my late wife Valerie [who was not much into folk, in fact] always looked forward to his visits, regarding him as a courteous, charming and exemplary guest, as did I. The same applied as a v.v, if you see what I mean, when I, or once or twice we, stayed over with him, either in Norwich when he was with Anthea, or later in Keighley with Jenny. As to his hypocritical readings of one's writings; one of the nicest things I remember ever being said to me came from him, when he once read something I had written, and said of it, "Oh, I like that; I wish I'd written that."

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 09:22 AM

Sorry -- I meant"hypercritical" not "hypocritical". What a terrible mondegreen! Profound apologies again!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 09:41 AM

It seems to me, Mike, that your comments only enhance what Brian and I have been saying about the way PB presented himself differently in different circumstances. I often saw him in the early days in the company of Bob Copper and he was always on his best behaviour then as well.
About my writing, I don't even think that he really disliked it. It was just as Brian describes. "Right, the gig is over and what I need now to relax is a good argument." He was a truly complex person.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: rosma
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 09:50 AM

I don't care about the politics of the singer as long as they sing good songs well - and I don't even have to agree with the message of the song to like it. I know there are singers with whom I would strongly disagree if we got into a political discussion but I don't care as long as they don't shove the message (even one I agree with to be honest) down my throat during performances.

The possible suggestion by some in folk that you have to be left wing to sing folk is rubbish. I think most traditional folk songs can be broken down into the following groups:
- A bit of fun with no political leaning
- Irrelevant to current politics
- About historical events
- Social history

Then there's the occasional one which might present an "issue" - so you either don't sing it or sing it because it's a good song never mind the message.

Presumably if you are writing your own songs or using more modern political songs you will have to use your judgement.

Either way, if you're not going to get into a political diatribe in concert (and I'd implore you not to whatever your leaning - I'd suggest it will put off 3/4 of your audience, not 1/2) then no one will be the wiser unless they start to look into your background.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 10:26 AM

There are one or two British and Irish folk singers who are unashamedly left-wing and that's always fine by me, but what I don't like is a song that's too directly polemical. I think that's a misjudgement occasionally made. A folk singer is a talented musician but that doesn't necessarily earn him a public platform from which to beat us about our heads with his personal politics. I feel the same about army generals pontificating on the telly about defence policy or Prince BigEars regaling us with his wacky notions about architecture or homeopathy. What I love so much about Woody Guthrie and his songs is that he could communicate a simple message far more powerfully via a story or a description of people - his people - than by pushing a political standpoint down our throats. That's true art in my book.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 10:26 AM

I suppose it depends on what you mean by the phrase politicaly conservative I think that unlike his father he did not believe in political dogma. That would rule out him being either communist or fascist.
In my opinion he was unconventional and he liked to argue a point as a means of intellectual stimulation,I think he would have loved the fact we were duscussing him 24 years after his death.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 10:36 AM

Vic wrote:
"I'm sure that Brian will have had that 'I don't get all the bookings I deserve' conversation with Peter as regularly as I did."

Indeed I did. On one occasion he leafed through the empty pages of his diary with an expression of such desolation that it was hard to know what to say.

"It was fairly useless to tell him that in spite of his huge talent, his strange manner in font of an audience and because of the qualities that that have been ascribed to him earlier in this paragraph, he wasn't the easiest person to present at your club or have staying in your home. It was only because he was such a fascinating and unique performer that we continued to book him."

I always thought it was those other attributes, rather than his (perceived) politics that put people off booking him. My local club organizers were very resistant to the idea until I twisted their arms hard. He went down a storm and they were completely converted.

I should say, by the way, that despite all his contrariness I got on well with Peter, and was once invited to dinner at his and Jenny's house with my wife. Once we'd got beyond the initial greeting: "Do you mind if I smoke dope? Because if you do you can always leave," he was the most wonderful host.

"THE CROWN v. BRIAN PETERS on a charge of BEING A GRASPING SKINFLINT... Exhibit A M' Lud."

All publicity is good publicity, thank you Vic.

On a more general note, given the origins of the UK Folk Revival, it's hardly surprising that many of those drawn to it have been of the left. Rosma is quite right that the traditional repertoire is on the whole politically neutral, but the idea that this was the music of the have-nots made it attractive from a left perspective. Leaving aside the many singers who have drafted modern songs into their repertoire in order to make the kind of statement that traditional songs don't usually provide I can think of several performers whose politics are firmly socialist, but whose repertoires barely hint at it.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 11:23 AM

We have had the story of the empty diary before. Still seems a mystery to me. I experienced it following the success of The Transports, which, along with pretty well all the critics, I listed in my Guardian roundup as my "Folk Record of the year" (jointly with Topic's Martin Carthy reissues). I recall here yet again his saying to me soon after that, "The Transports was a runaway success. All of you [critics] gave it raves. And after that my career went phhhhttttt". And then he showed me those empty diary pages.

Was it just the politics? Or his often abrasive personality, which those who knew him took at the ironic value he gave it, but I remember Anthea telling me that not everyone made such allowances and many were rubbed up the wrong way. Or what?

As I said -- I remain mystified...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 11:39 AM

Bascom Lamar Lunsford held such views, and quite extreme ones, so I hear. A folksinger by any definition

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 11:57 AM

Erik Darling was fairly conservative I hear.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 12:13 PM

MGM, I cannot recall him mentioning politics at any gigs, so you can rule that out.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 12:28 PM

Word gets around, Dick. You know that.

≈M≈

Anyhow, I can't see that your personal recollection of what somebody might have said at such gigs as you happen to have attended is an unarguable definitive cast-iron incontrovertible knockdown argument to "rule·it·out"


-- is it now?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 12:50 PM

"many were rubbed up the wrong way"

I met one club organiser who had never forgiven him for ridiculing his record collection. Others who had found him unreasonably argumentative or arrogant.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 01:10 PM

Something Vic wrote some hours back has been ticking slowburn-wise in my head -- "in the company of Bob Copper and he was always on his best behaviour then as well" -- following on from how Valerie & I always found him. But I wonder why "as well". Why should he have been on "best behaviour" with us, I wonder? He would have had a different sort of feeling for Bob, an older & respected mentor; but he wasn't the sort to suck up to one who just happened to be a critic, I should have thought,

Ah, well: these things are mysteries, my children...

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 01:29 PM

I was running a club, he rang me for a booking and in the course of it asked me what i thought of his publicity, he had drawn and designed it himself.
I replied that the illustration was good but that my impression overall was one of arrogance, we discussed it amicably, I accepted what he said,and I gave him a gig.I think he was a good performer.
I think the majority of club or festival organisers had no idea of his politics and most of them would not have cared a damn.
I think it was a number of other things, but nothing to do with politics.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 01:38 PM

MGM, not all folk club organisers are of the left, some are non political, some are centre, some do not want any political discussion at all. I have been around doing gigs for 49 years.
I have seen a lot of changes, most organisers are decent people who organise for a lot of different reasons, most of them do not want someone who is going to be cranky.
I remember one organiser complaining to me about a fat womman who complained about the bed she was offered, and another organiser who complained about the singer[still alive] who puked up and turned the mattress over, organisers dont want that shit.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 05:12 PM

Absolutely agree with all that, Dick. I was a folk club organiser myself for a while -- ran the Sawston Folk Club, near Cambridge, for several years in early 1970s. Not sure where you think I have suggested that folk club organisers are all lefties or whatever. The whole point of this thread, from title onwards, is that folk people tend to be left of centre rather than otherwise; but that there are plenty of exceptions. It isn't my thread! Guest Rita was the OP.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Cool Beans
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 06:38 PM

Probably time to dust this one off, a hit for Johnny Cash, written by Shel Silverstein:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDSN1F72QU4

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 06:58 PM

Colin Irwin wrote in Properganda;

Certainly those already suspicious of his background weren't especially enamoured by his fascination with Kipling, an India-born writer whose work became so closely identified with British imperialism that he was often accused of being a reactionary and thus anathema to the left-wing dominated folk movement. This bothered Peter – who regarded winding up the folk world's most popular and cherished precepts as something of a personal sport – not a jot.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 07:50 PM

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:55 PM

"Any singer, or musician, who jumps out and makes political identity, either on the 'right' or 'left' can count on losing half their audiences"

Try telling that to John Tams, Jez Lowe, Billy Bragg........

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 09:04 PM

May I just ask why it matters if a musician is a conservative .

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 10:53 PM

Maybe it shouldn't matter, HiLo, but I think it does. I have heard comments from people who say they feel uncomfortable at folk gatherings because the group is too uniformly liberal, and remarks are made that make them feel excluded - so they stay away.

I've heard the opposite about religion. Some friends of mine stay away from some groups because too many people choose to sing religious songs.

Doesn't seem like there should be a political litmus test to be admitted to a group singing Child ballads, but maybe that's something that happens. It's a question to explore.

I think people should sing songs that appeal to them, and that everybody needs to be a bit more accepting of other people, a bit less fussy about what gets sung and not song, said and not said.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 11:12 PM

I agree with you Joe, that is why I asked the question. I find there is a growing attitude of intolerance in some quarters on the left, there also seems to be an assumption that those who are conservative are bad people and ought to be ostracized, stereotyped, and marginalized, thier beliefs and opinions scoffed at. I find this trend worrisome as it seem so opposite to what" liberal " values claim to be !

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 12:40 AM

The point in this exchange is surely that there is not one sole motivation that directs anyone to folk [or to any other cultural or such manifestation at that], but many. Some, like me, will come in because they have always liked the noise and vibe of folk music, and wish to pursue both its acoustic and its aesthetic aspects intellectually and academically as well. Others, however, to some extent agenda-driven, will regard it additionally as an opportunity to get some of their ideas over to an audience -- and folk, being the 'music of the people', could by some be exploited as ready-made for the postulation of a leftist agenda. Can it be denied that that has been, at least to some degree, the motivation of many, from Seeger to Lloyd to MacColl to Bragg?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 12:44 AM

... and those of my sort will tend to deplore, albeit aware of the motivations, such politicisation of their beloved æsthetic, and wish they could just be left to enjoy their (our) beloved artefact in peace!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 01:39 AM

...and of course, there have been attempts from the extreme right to co-opt folk music for their own propaganda. Folk music still hasn't recovered from what Hitler did to it in Germany.
The leftists don't seem to use traditional music for propaganda - they write their own songs in the "folk genre." To my mind, that's a more honest way to do it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:17 AM

Not sure about that, tho, Joe. Think of the implications behind songbooks like Ewan's Shuttle·&·Cage & Lloyd's Coaldust·Ballads. Excellent, indispensable books that singers of my generation could hardly do without; but with a clear tendentiousness of selection & approach notwithstanding. Published, at that, by the explicitly & self-avowedly Marxist Workers' Music Association.

≈Michael≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:19 AM

And did you really never perceive any sort of agenda in the repertoire and approach of Pete Seeger? Come, now...

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:20 AM

Whiche side are you on?
Which side are you on!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:43 AM

Push your bed up to the wall, then it doesn't matter which side you are on.

The gutter press, a few years ago, tried to find some link between folk artistes and the fact that a far right neo Nazi political party sang "John Barleycorn" at their conferences and, as with Marmite, slipped in their leader's speech an admiration for Martin Carthy.

Notwithstanding Marmite had the financial muscle to sue them, the unfortunate plug for Martin also died down. But.. Imagine your introduction to folk had been attending their conference. What impression would you have?

A band I occasionally played with many moons ago once wondered if traditional songs in the repertoire that glorified fox hunting should be dropped. All rather depressing and pc. Mind you, following on from Joe Offer's point, there are a couple of men who drop in at singarounds locally who sing religious songs. You'd be surprised how many people, some of whom are church goers, who feel it inappropriate. Me? My glass seems to be just about empty and needing a trip to the bar when they start.

I doubt even The Archbishop of Canterbury could sit and listen to new words applied to a Neil Young song... Considering one such venue is 200 yds from the birthplace of Charles Wesley, you'd have thought at least they could use the excuse of local songwriting hero if they must share their irritating joy.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:44 AM

Hi, Michael -

No question that Pete Seeger had an agenda. Note what I said: The leftists don't seem to use traditional music for propaganda - they write their own songs in the "folk genre."

Same with MacColl. I don't think he or Seeger used traditional songs to promote their political agenda, but they certainly wrote lots of songs to support their agenda.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:54 AM

Still disagree, Joe. See if you can get hold of copies of those two collections of TRADITIONAL industrial songs which I named above — tho I fear they might not be too easy to come by at this time of day. But, take my word for it: 'Traditional' I repeat; not written by MacColl or Lloyd themselves, but carefully selected to fulfil an agenda: the avowedly Marxist one of the publishers, the Workers Music Assocn.

{Nice to chat with you, as ever. Have a good year!}

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 04:00 AM

And consider the mix of traditional and contemporary songs which would appear in 'Sing Out', & its UK equivalent 'Sing' {edited by my good [but certainly Marxist] friend, the late Eric Winter}. Not all the traditional songs, certainly, would be appropriate to the 'class struggle' & such; but I think you will find that a fair proportion would be such as, eg The Durham Strike and so forth; or mine-disaster songs like The Blantyre Explosion. All part of the rich tapestry of folklore, of course; but capable of tendentious selection even so, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 04:12 AM

And would it be unreasonable to point out the great favour shown by Seegers Pete & Peggy to a particular traditional song, The House Carpenter, which tells of the infidelity of the wife of the eponymous working man, seduced by her former lover, a ship's captain who could have married a king's daughter, one undeniably of the officer class? A version omitting the supernatural element present in earlier variants, but instead foregrounding these class elements {"If you could have married a king's daughter ... I've lately been married to a house carpenter, And I think he's a nice young man!"}

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 04:49 AM

Joe: "The leftists don't seem to use traditional music for propaganda..."

Seeger disagreed with you. He was of the opinion ALL songs are propaganda of one sort or another (tho the logic was a bit stretched as I recall) and all folk songs are political in nature.

He was just very, very smooth at misdirecting the introductions. Unless you were there and heard the "party line" that came between the songs, the playlist itself seemed fairly apolitical.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:05 AM

I think you are absolutely correct M.
Modern "contemporary folk" is agony to listen to unless one is a dedicated ideologue....It started when the left started adopting the popular folkies of the sixties as banner carriers for the revolution, especially Dylan.

How upset they were when these egoists refused to be compartmentalised.
Most modern folksingers are just as wedded to aspirational capitalism as any political conservative.

Radicals are few and far between, I assisted in running one of the largest folk clubs in Scotland in the sixties, and could number radicals on the fingers of one hand.
I have conversed with all the "big names" from that time in Scotland and some from England.....their driving force was almost always self promotion..... and some were musical geniuses like Gerry Rafferty, some used the popularity of a folk scene which they despised (singing pullovers), to advance a career in show business.....like Billy Connelly. The great Alex Campbell was another who saw his music as a job of work...a transient worker, driven by the need to provide a living for himself rather than any political conviction.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:14 AM

Fuck me, folk singers are wedded to capitalist ideas now. Presumably wedded to capitalism of the opposite gender eh?





😂😂😂

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:27 AM

Billy Connolly (note spelling) waxes lyrically in his wife's biographies over his love of traditional folk. His biggest regret lately is that his advancing Parkinson's Disease precludes his love of playing banjo and singing.

Just to put the record straight. He wanted The Humblebums to carry on doing folk. Rafferty wished to expand his musical horizons and encouraged Connolly to use his natural comedy approach to attract a larger audience spectrum as a solo player.

You do talk some rubbish Akenaton.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:30 AM

Well, I suppose "religious" songs are more ...of the people...than ones promoting twenty first century socialism....or capitalism.

Many of the oldest ballads contain references to the supernatural.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:34 AM

I've been waiting for someone else to mention this thinking that it was bound to come up soon..... but it hasn't, so here goes.

The attempts by the BNP to infiltrate folk music with their thinking that anyone interested in British traditions would also be sympathetic to an extreme racist British nationalism happened in fairly recent times. Those, including myself, who strongly opposed this were subject to a scurrilous vilification on social media. For example, I was subject to identity theft of my emails and Facebook and Mudcat postings and PMs, had to see hideous photoshopped photos of my wife posted on the internet and threats that their thugs would descend on meetings of the folk club I ran. Fortunately, folk music activists closed ranks and Folk Against Fascism ran a concerted campaign to see them off.... but in the short run it was very threatening and upsetting.

Compared with that, the efforts of the likes of Pete Seeger, Ewan MacColl and Billy Bragg trying to persuade their audiences from the stage of the evils of capitalism seems pretty benign.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:41 AM

I have never read any of Billy's biography, but I can assure you that the chorus singing groups who composed the backbone of "the revival", were looked upon with derision by those destined for "bigger things".

In the beginning, the huge audiences which attended folk clubs, came for the community singing aspect.....that was what provided the magic, the emotion, the participation.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:47 AM

Err. Look up to "Guest Musket" a few posts up. He has mentioned it Vic.

I too was concerned over the nationalist link up with traditional folk songs. Although to be fair, a person of such views might point out they aren't necessarily the domain of left wing views either. I like listening to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan but regardless of whether I support, oppose, like or dislike his overt political overtone, I still think it spoils the musical talent he can offer.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:52 AM

The attacks against your wife and yourself are indeed disgraceful Vic, I had no involvement with the folk scene at that time, but remember it being mentioned here on Mudcat.

I could never understand why these people thought they could influence the members of present day folk clubs, who are by and large inclined to the left.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:57 AM

Err. Look up to "Guest Musket" a few posts up. He has mentioned it Vic.

Really? Musket has mentioned the attacks on folk enthusiasts by what the BNP liked to call their "attack dogs"? Could you link to the date and time of the actual post where he makes this point?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:06 AM

"Just to put the record straight. He wanted The Humblebums to carry on doing folk. Rafferty wished to expand his musical horizons and encouraged Connolly to use his natural comedy approach to attract a larger audience spectrum as a solo player."

I knew Billy and Tam,(who like myself worked in the building trade), long before Gerry joined. they never "did folk", they did a little bluegrass interspersed with comedy, which gradually took over.

Gerry changed the group completely, I was in the audience on his introduction...he did a few of his own songs and I was blown away, became a lifelong fan, have every record he ever made, but he was from a different genre.

Most of the audience wanted the old Billy and Tam, the footstompin' the raucus laughter, the observational Glasgow comedy.

Tam was ditched and he told me later that he had gone back to chippying......the rest is history.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:08 AM

It was also mentioned in those odd, strange links which don't show up on all systems: mine eg just shows them as funny rectangles with squiggles in. Have asked before whether anyone can explain this phenomenon; certainly can't understand it myself. Perhaps they won't work on an ?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:08 AM

The symbiotic relationship between those who had a profession based around folk music and those who provided the backbone of folk clubs was and in part still is a joy. Serendipity is the best way to describe it.

Folk is a broad church. (Mosque / temple / synagogue / pub / football ground) and as in any arena, especially where artistry has a place, squabbles can be taken out of context. Clubs are largely singarounds these days, as much to do with those of us who used to run clubs not wanting to get our financial fingers burned as any other reason and "turns" are increasingly having to broaden their appeal on the small theatre / arts centre circuit.

On that note, being political is less popular. I have seen Martin Simpson twice in recent months. Once in a very much folk club venue and once at a theatre. His act was more social comment orientated in the club and more general music in the theatre.

So the point of "politically conservative" for me includes having to reference the person or the persona?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:14 AM

Is GUEST of 5.47 the same person as GUEST of 6.06 or not? I do wish they'd go back to banning unidentified Guest posts, if only becoz they are so intolerably bloody CONFUSING!

SIGNED as the identifiable work of

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:47 AM

...and of course, there have been attempts from the extreme right to co-opt folk music for their own propaganda. Folk music still hasn't recovered from what Hitler did to it in Germany.

What is happening at the moment in Hungary is pretty depressing. The present urban trad music scene in Hungary would not exist without the work of Bartok and Kodaly, both of whom were on the far left (they were in the culture administration of Bela Kun's socialist republic of 1919) - and Bartok particularly was a consistent internationalist with absolutely no time for nationalist appropriations of folk culture. And the reason so many Hungarian folkies are so good at it is because they've been through the music education system created by Kodaly under the Communists, which is the most effective the world has ever seen.

I suspect most Hungarian folkies still are somewhere on the left, but there is now a significant fraction of them who support FIDESZ, which is roughly like Cameron's Tories (and similarly tolerant of and symbiotic with the racist far right - Jobbik in Hungary roughly corresponding to UKIP/BNP/EDL in the UK).

I haven't figured out what the FIDESZ folkies' attitude to Gypsies is. For a while, the folk scene was a dependable ally of the Gypsies in Hungary and Romania and helped nurture a revival of the autonomous Gypsy culture (like the relationship between the UK folk revival and the Travellers, but less amateurish). How many of them still relate positively to the Gypsies I don't know (or whether many of them still share Bartok's interest in the Muslim culture underlying much of the former Ottoman Empire). I will attempt to find out when I go back there this summer.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:06 AM

"I like listening to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan but regardless of whether I support, oppose, like or dislike his overt political overtone, I still think it spoils the musical talent he can offer."

I don't mind when it is delivered in the song - but when singers start preaching their view for long periods between songs it can be waring - even when you agree with them. And the trouble is in a small venue it can then turn into a verbal spat if even just one person in the audience challenges them and most people pay to hear the music not a political debate. That has happened on two occasions at our club. Once with Dick and once with Rory McLeod.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:12 AM

ESSENTIAL [I fear] drift --

Jack: UKIP is in no way comparable to or cognate with the two extreme rightwing organisations with which you see fit to bracket it, you know. No way whatsoever! The necessity to break links with the oppressive EU, whose two main members, France & Germany, hate one another, but are at one solely in their hatred of us, the UK, because we beat one of them in WW2 after the other had so disgracefully chickened out, is a perfectly rational stance to take, and has no racist overtone whatsoever. You should be ashamed of being taken in by the unworthy propaganda, which aims to undermine such an impulse by purporting to link the party with the agenda of supporting this policy with fascist oppression. I am surprised at you.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:34 AM

I agree M, I concur with several UKIP policies, one being absenting ourselves from the EU and would describe myself as a socialist politically.

I confusion over political and social issues continues

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:38 AM

On 04 Jan 16 - 04:01 AM Mike posted:-
" I guess you can include me in as MOR inclined more to right than left."

I must say that his post at 06 Jan 16 - 07:12 AM makes him sound much more right-inclined than the above claim.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 08:07 AM

UKIP, the BNP and the EDL are one organization, appealing to the same constituency of white xenophobes, with membership moving to and fro between different subsections as opportunity and necessity dictate.

Jobbik is rather more honest - the parliamentarians and the street thugs carry the same political label.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 08:59 AM

Sorry, Vic & Jack; but that is just not how I perceive UKIP. I don't think I am a white xenophobe because I think that this forced alliance with our former enemy & her contemptible victim [hands up if you thought that guy in the Simpsons' "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" a joke], both of whom still have it in for us because we won & they didn't, is not to our advantage to maintain. I say again, you have fallen victims to unworthy propaganda of those with a business agenda they think might be marred by any decent prideful independence. I suppose you thought that disgusting 2-faced heap of treacherous ungrateful pigs·dung De Gaulle was our ally, didn't you?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:00 AM

UKIP are just a party of extreme right bigots without the courage of their conviction to join English Defence League or BNP. They have no policies. They see Europe as a bogey man without clarifying their stance.

The one thing you can say in their favour is that whilst ever obnoxious bigots are saying EU membership is a bad thing, the respectable majority of people will listen to the pro EU lobby.

There you are. You wanted a right wing folk singer. Well Michael claims to be a singer. He is certainly right wing, what with showing his support for UKIP, trying to differentiate those thugs from other thugs. I'm not surprised myself. A while ago, when he was denigrating Muslims, I asked if that included the millions of law abiding people who serve their communities. His reply? "The corner shop owner may be ok but he might have a nephew."

No need to discuss the ins and outs of Peter Bellamy. We have a self confessed real live one here

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:28 AM

Vic & Jack are one thing. But the fatuous Popgun, in the words of the great Jane Austen [Sense & Sensibility] "does not deserve the compliment of rational opposition".

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:36 AM

I quote from two recent posts:-

" The necessity to break links with the oppressive EU, whose two main members, France & Germany, hate one another, but are at one solely in their hatred of us, the UK, because we beat one of them in WW2 after the other had so disgracefully chickened out, is a perfectly rational stance to take, and has no racist overtone whatsoever. You should be ashamed of being taken in by the unworthy propaganda, which aims to undermine such an impulse by purporting to link the party with the agenda of supporting this policy with fascist oppression. I am surprised at you."

and

"I think that this forced alliance with our former enemy & her contemptible victim [hands up if you thought that guy in the Simpsons' "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" a joke], both of whom still have it in for us because we won & they didn't, is not to our advantage to maintain. I say again, you have fallen victims to unworthy propaganda of those with a business agenda they think might be marred by any decent prideful independence. I suppose you thought that disgusting 2-faced heap of treacherous ungrateful pigs·dung De Gaulle was our ally, didn't you?"

Now, I know who made these statements, but if I didn't know, I would have surmised that these were the comments of a small-minded xenophobic Little Englander and not those of an ex-broadsheet journalist whose writings in newspapers of both the left and right, I have admired on a range of subjects including folk music.... and this from a man who claims his opinions are middle-of-the-road.

I am saddened.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:41 AM

'Guest': "From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:55 PM

"Any singer, or musician, who jumps out and makes political identity, either on the 'right' or 'left' can count on losing half their audiences"

Try telling that to John Tams, Jez Lowe, Billy Bragg........"

I think Joe Offer re-stated my very point:

Joe Offer, 05 Jan 16 - 10:53 PM

"Maybe it shouldn't matter, HiLo, but I think it does. I have heard comments from people who say they feel uncomfortable at folk gatherings because the group is too uniformly liberal, and remarks are made that make them feel excluded - so they stay away."

Now 'mystery Guest', Get off your delusions of grandeur!

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:53 AM

the fatuous Popgun

treacherous ungrateful pigs·dung

I will read the staements of others, allow them their opinions and give my own. I will analyse their statements in my replies and hope that they will do the same with my comments..... but when a thread descends to slimy insults, I, and I'm sure others, will always leave.

Exeunt....

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:53 AM

I suppose the old adage of the older you get, the more intolerant you get applies here.

By that reckoning.....

Nice to see Goofus thinking Billy Bragg, John Tams and Jez Lowe go to "folk gatherings" of a uniform group, whatever. There was me thinking they are internationally renowned singer songwriters whose material is well known to those who buy tickets for their concerts.

It's a bit like going to Covent Garden for The Ring Cycle and saying "I hope it isn't too long, I've left a joint in the oven."
😂😂

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,The fatuous popgun
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 10:02 AM

Nurse!

He's out of bed again!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 10:53 AM

Musket, your post was so 'off the wall' that it misses the point, and makes none. Not even worthy of a reply.

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 11:08 AM

Sorry you are saddened Vic -- one of those on here whose posts I generally find worth reading for intellectual content. But the facts of the matter are that De Gaulle was given refuge here when his country was conquered; did enjoy his war in safety here under our auspices; was handed his country back, which we & our allies had liberated, to become its President; and did thank us by kicking us in the teeth over Maastricht, having made common cause against us with our mutual former foe. What on earth can you perceive as xenophobic or Little·Englander-ish in the rehearsal of these indisputable facts? Or have you some other fantasy-version of your own of the facts of the matter?

Thanks anyhow for your kind words about my former writings.

Regards

≈Michael≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 12:06 PM

Britain ought to leave the UK because of de Gaulle, who died three years before Britain joined it?

Does this go along with an official UKIP policy that Joan of Arc had it coming?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 01:53 PM

What on earth can you perceive as xenophobic or Little·Englander-ish in the rehearsal of these indisputable facts?

Perhaps the fact that WW2 ended 70 years ago - and much has happened in that time. To retain such a hatred of two countries (is that just the governments or the complete populations of those countries, by the way?)does seem very xenophobic to me - and unworthy of one whom I had always respected for clarity of argument and logical thought.

Very sad indeed.

My first and last post on yet another thread which has descended into insult and petty-mindedness.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:14 PM

It's always been possible to make political points via music, particularly but not exclusively via vocal music. It's been done with opera for hundreds of years, often forcefully. There's the clue. You can do it with stories and narratives about the lives of people. You don't need to patronise the audience with explicit political opinions, either in the music or between the pieces. In fact, as some posters have said here, you're severely at risk of alienating even the people who agree with you if you do that. I might want to hear about trade union rights, the Clearances, Thatcher's atrocities, abortion and the hunger strikers, even God, as folk music is about real people. But I don't want to be nursing my pint with the feeling that I'm being preached at or having my emotions tendentiously toyed with. There's a clear distinction. Some of my very favourite singers have occasionally had me indulging in involuntary buttock-clenching on occasion. To me, it's a mark overstepped.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM

There was a reason I picked on Wagner above, rather than any other.

So, what have I learned on this thread?

You need to distinguish between the person and the persona. Or put another way, you wouldn't want to discuss philosophy with Jordan but would you kick her out of bed? (Just a little analogy to get the self righteous happily indignant.)

Despite all the evidence being to the contrary, Billy Connolly seems to have been a building labourer instead of the ship yard welder he really was.

My dismay last year over the rather repugnant views Michael is capable of inflicting seems to be rather widely shared now. Do keep up.

Folk singers are first and foremost entertainers. It gives me great pleasure to listen to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan and let the rants go in one ear and out the other.

Roy Bailey double so.

I'm off to a folk club now. I'll sing about nobbing and unrequited nobbing. That'll be safe.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM

There was a reason I picked on Wagner above, rather than any other.

So, what have I learned on this thread?

You need to distinguish between the person and the persona. Or put another way, you wouldn't want to discuss philosophy with Jordan but would you kick her out of bed? (Just a little analogy to get the self righteous happily indignant.)

Despite all the evidence being to the contrary, Billy Connolly seems to have been a building labourer instead of the ship yard welder he really was.

My dismay last year over the rather repugnant views Michael is capable of inflicting seems to be rather widely shared now. Do keep up.

Folk singers are first and foremost entertainers. It gives me great pleasure to listen to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan and let the rants go in one ear and out the other.

Roy Bailey double so.

I'm off to a folk club now. I'll sing about nobbing and unrequited nobbing. That'll be safe.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:41 PM

No hatred of any countries, goddammit. Just of that loathsome ungrateful dictatorial lowlife louse Charles De Gaulle. Can't you get that into your stupid thick ☠s?!. What's the matter with you all! Or do you think he was just a benign old boyo who loved us all really, despite making a career of kicking us -- his erstwhile saviours & refuge -- in the teeth just to show he could & didn't owe anything to anybody coz he was his own stinking self with the upper hand now. --- 30 or so years ago, even in the memories of you infants, not any bloody 70+.

Oh wotz the bloody use! Once Catters get their teeth into a bone

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:50 PM

I fail to understand how any 'folk' singer coud be politically Conservative when there are 55,000 homeless people in England alone.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:53 PM

Having a good rant is one thing. Slagging off Norman Lamont between songs is entirely another, and no, I have no time for Norman Lamont, and yes, it was a good few years ago! Far from being the only instance I can bring to mind.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:02 PM

"I fail to understand how any 'folk' singer coud be politically Conservative when there are 55,000 homeless people in England alone."

Could be that those "folkies" of right-wing inclination are reluctant to display their predilections in public, knowing that they'd almost certainly make themselves rather unpopular, but I agree with your sentiment.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:42 PM

No hatred of any countries, goddammit. Just of that loathsome ungrateful dictatorial lowlife louse Charles De Gaulle.

Well he was safely dead before Britain was in the EEC/EU. So why is he relevant to whether the UK should stay in it? You seem to see a connection, and since you're also saying it isn't his nationality, what is it?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:47 PM

De Gaulle was the figure head of The French resistance during the second world war, here are two of his speeches.
June 18 1940

The leaders who, for many years past, have been at the head of the French armed forces have set up a government.

Alleging the defeat of our armies, this government has entered into negotiations with the enemy with a view to bringing about a cessation of hostilities.

It is quite true that we were, and still are, overwhelmed by enemy mechanised forces, both on the ground and in the air. It was the tanks, the planes, and the tactics of the Germans, far more than the fact that we were outnumbered, that forced our armies to retreat. It was the German tanks, planes, and tactics that provided the element of surprise which brought our leaders to their present plight.

But has the last word been said? Must we abandon all hope? Is our defeat final and irremediable? To those questions I answer - No!

Speaking in full knowledge of the facts, I ask you to believe me when I say that the cause of France is not lost. The very factors that brought about our defeat may one day lead us to victory.

For, remember this, France does not stand alone. She is not isolated. Behind her is a vast empire, and she can make common cause with the British empire, which commands the seas and is continuing the struggle. Like England, she can draw unreservedly on the immense industrial resources of the United States.

This war is not limited to our unfortunate country. The outcome of the struggle has not been decided by the battle of France. This is a world war. Mistakes have been made, there have been delays and untold suffering, but the fact remains that there still exists in the world everything we need to crush our enemies some day.

Advertisement

Today we are crushed by the sheer weight of mechanised force hurled against us, but we can still look to a future in which even greater mechanised force will bring us victory. The destiny of the world is at stake.

I, General de Gaulle, now in London, call on all French officers and men who are at present on British soil, or may be in the future, with or without their arms; I call on all engineers and skilled workmen from the armaments factories who are at present on British soil, or may be in the future, to get in touch with me.

Whatever happens, the flame of French resistance must not and shall not die.

Tomorrow I shall broadcast again from London.

June 19 1940

Frenchmen must now be fully aware that all ordinary forms of authority have disappeared.

Faced by the bewilderment of my countrymen, by the disintegration of a government in thrall to the enemy, by the fact that the institutions of my country are incapable, at the moment, of functioning, I, General de Gaulle, a French soldier and military leader, realise that I now speak for France. I n the name of France, I make the following solemn declaration: It is the bounden duty of all Frenchmen who still bear arms to continue the struggle. For them to lay down their arms, to evacuate any position of military importance, or agree to hand over any part of French territory, however small, to enemy control, would be a crime against our country. For the moment I refer particularly to French North Africa - to the integrity of French North Africa.

Advertisement

The Italian armistice is nothing but a clumsy trap. In the Africa of Clauzel, Bugeaud, Lyautey, and Noguès, honour and duty strictly enjoin that the French should refuse to carry out the conditions imposed by the enemy.

The thought that the panic of Bordeaux could make itself felt across the sea is not to be borne.

Soldiers of France, wherever you may be, arise!

June 22 1940

The French government, after having asked for an armistice, now knows the conditions dictated by the enemy.

The result of these conditions would be the complete demobilisation of the French land, sea, and air forces, the surrender of our weapons and the total occupation of French territory. The French government would come under German and Italian tutelage.

It may therefore be said that this armistice would not only be a capitulation, but that it would also reduce the country to slavery. Now, a great many Frenchmen refuse to accept either capitulation or slavery, for reasons which are called: honour, common sense, and the higher interests of the country.

I say honour, for France has undertaken not to lay down arms save in agreement with her allies. As long as the allies continue the war, her government has no right to surrender to the enemy. The Polish, Norwegian, Belgian, Netherlands, and Luxemburg governments, though driven from their territories, have thus interpreted their duty. I say common sense, for it is absurd to consider the struggle as lost. True, we have suffered a major defeat. We lost the battle of France through a faulty military system, mistakes in the conduct of operations, and the defeatist spirit shown by the government during recent battles. But we still have a vast empire, our fleet is intact, and we possess large sums in gold. We still have the gigantic potentialities of American industry. The same war conditions which caused us to be beaten by 5,000 planes and 6,000 tanks can tomorrow bring victory by means of 20,000 tanks and 20,000 planes.

I say the higher interests of the country, for this is not a Franco-German war to be decided by a single battle. This is a world war. No one can foresee whether the neutral countries of today will not be at war tomorrow, or whether Germany's allies will always remain her allies. If the powers of freedom ultimately triumph over those of servitude, what will be the fate of a France which has submitted to the enemy?

Honour, common sense, and the interests of the country require that all free Frenchmen, wherever they be, should continue the fight as best they may.

It is therefore necessary to group the largest possible French force wherever this can be done. Everything which can be collected by way of French military elements and potentialities for armaments production must be organised wherever such elements exist.

I, General de Gaulle, am undertaking this national task here in England.

I call upon all French servicemen of the land, sea, and air forces; I call upon French engineers and skilled armaments workers who are on British soil, or have the means of getting here, to come and join me.

I call upon the leaders, together with all soldiers, sailors, and airmen of the French land, sea, and air forces, wherever they may now be, to get in touch with me.

I call upon all Frenchmen who want to remain free to listen to my voice and follow me.

Long live free France in honour and independence!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Mystery Guest
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:32 PM

So do I assume that 'Guest from Sanity' is what it says on your birth certificate? Or are you perhaps just as anonymous as me???

I'm not quite sure how you interpret my only post on this thread as 'delusions of grandeur' I was merely making the point that there are a large number of performers out there who do have a well known political leaning, and contrary to your statement, this has no bearing on the size of audience they attract. Indeed, as I believe 'Guest Musket' (presumably also his real name) those people that do go to see them are probably attracted by their political leanings.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:51 PM

I remember Karine Polwart saying on her FB page that when she tried to both explain her position on independence, and to explain how the debate was perhaps not being covered well in the UK media as a whole, to an audience at a festival in England that a big portion of the crowd simply went for a stroll or for a drink. Again people want to be entertained and not lectured to. Different a few sentences in introducing a song but if it is a more detailed preaching to the people then you risk alienating them. She conceded it didn't work!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:58 PM

The point that M was making seems to have been covered in the usual avalanche of shit.

It is not racist or xenophobic to protest our membership of the EU.
Or be the first political party to question the idiocy of unregulated immigration within that Union.......every major party in this country now subscribes to the view that immigration from within the EU must be regulated.

The only way this can be achieved is by the UK removing itself from this undemocratic organisation, which was originally set up to serve the interests of big business......I voted against in the first referendum, and I shall do so again.

Oh and for the benefit of those who lack comprehension....everyone with the slightest interest in music and entertainment, know the history of Mr Connolly.......Mr Harvey and I exchanged views on timber frame construction and he told me later when I met him by chance, that he had "gone back to the tools".....craftsmen will realise what that means.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Gopherit!
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:08 PM

The U.S. Constitution was supposed to be a "liberal" document, a government of, by, and for the people with "certain inalienable rights" embedded in the Bill of Rights. But somehow if you believe in this liberal document you are now regarded as a "conservative" or even a "right wing extremist" by the NSA.
It also seems socialists, liberals democrats want to control everybody about everything all based on compulsion/coercion - mandatory vaccinations, healthcare, government "education," zone laws up the whazoo and so on - just the opposite of persuasion and co-operation, and leaving consenting adults alone. And quite a few conservatives subscribe to coercion - the draft, war, world policeman etc.

Then there is Hitler who said over and over again, "I am a socialist." Yet is is labeled "right wing"?

I think Fascism can arise out of the left or right and either. way it stinks. To me Fascism is the collusion of big government with big money/corporations to their benefit and to the greater detriment of most of the populace. It always employs deception and coercion.

Capitalism without morality descends into Fascism.

America is pretty much a Fascist oligarchy now as are too many countries across the globe.

You either see people possessing "certain inalienable rights" from God that majority vote can neither give nor take away, or you don't.

An essential right seldom mentioned is the right to simply be left alone, not coerced into someone else's agenda.

Conservative? Liberal? These terms have been so jumbled up by the money-that-is as part of their divide and conquer program as they make their way to the bank to deposit more of their ill-gotten gain.

It is one thing to stop a person from harming, quite another to coerce them.

Perhaps we need new terms. Gopherit!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:14 PM

Er, and the last two posts have precisely *what* to do with folk music...?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 02:57 AM

You tell 'em 'Goferit!!'!!
You got most of the picture with one minor adjustment, if you will...and it's within (quoting you): "Capitalism without morality descends into Fascism."

TRUE!!

"America is pretty much a Fascist oligarchy now as are too many countries across the globe."

TRUE....but there is an underlying reason....The oligarchy of which you refer is now made of the internationalist bankers who got fat off America, and now those same bankers don't need America or any 'home' country, unless they want to 'rent' our military, or anything else they need to accomplish their goals...without allegence to any singular country....fair enough??

"You either see people possessing "certain inalienable rights" from God that majority vote can neither give nor take away, or you don't."

TRUE....(but some time you don't see it, because the 'majority vote' has been co-opted and staged, as theater). No present candidate rises into prominence without the 'allowance' and/or funding by the banking oligarchy...and promoted by their corporate owned media.

"An essential right seldom mentioned is the right to simply be left alone, not coerced into someone else's agenda."

TRUE and well said.

"Conservative? Liberal? These terms have been so jumbled up by the money-that-is as part of their divide and conquer program as they make their way to the bank to deposit more of their ill-gotten gain."

TRUE..but let me add a small, clarifying addendum...

"Conservative? Liberal? These terms have been so jumbled up by the money-that-is as part of their divide and conquer program as they make their way BACK to the bank, from which they originated, to deposit more of their ill-gotten gain...to be awarded 'shares', by succeeding in passing their 'special interests' which they masqueraded as either a 'so-called Conservative' or 'so-called Liberal' 'cause'.

You OK with that??

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 03:24 AM

You know, the words "socialist" "conservative" and "liberal" tend to conjure up different images in The US than they do over here. So Goofus for once may have an excuse for his confusion.

Regarding tools, I think "tool" amongst other words whenever I read Akenaton's posts. Mind you, his confusion regarding immigration isn't going anywhere fast where he lives. On the million to one shot that little Britain prevails, The Scottish National Party will use the break of membership of The EU as reason for another independence referendum and apply to join The EU. SNP are probably the most pro EU political party in The UK.

So back to the singers. Those who use music as a medium for their soapbox a la Roy Bailey? Those who use social injustice as a theme a la Vin Garbutt? Those who play a straight bat and concentrate on the historical perspective of certain songs a la Martin Carthy? Those whose world views are irrelevant to their act a la Kate Rusby?

Yet all the above, not just Mr Bailey, come across as the opposite of conservative in conversation.

Interesting thread title but in the same way as Ewan MacColl putting on a false Scottish accent to go with his false Scottish name, it's all showbiz!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 03:34 AM

Its even more confusing if you consider Australia, where the Liberal Party is the equivalent of the UK Conservatives.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 04:04 AM

Musket mentions Vin Garbutt, and says quite correctly that he sings about social injustice. However it should not be forgotten that Vin has faced considerable criticism from the folk scene for daring to express his pro-life views in song.

It appears to me that the folk scene is more than happy for songs to present a political viewpoint, and some would say that is what folk song is for, but only if those views correspond with their own. It can appear to be notably intolerant of views it doesn't agree with. I have to say I find that one of the least attractive aspects of it.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 04:28 AM

Vin also receives support for his views, I have seen it with my own eyes at his concerts, your comment is unbalanced, Vin believes passionately in pro life he chooses to be controversial he cannot expect everyone to agree with him.
it is my opinion that the folk scene is tolerant, however I reserve the right to object to any singer spouting inflammatory racist speeches during their set.
Vin is a decent guy and obviously does not do that but hypothetically if he did or anyone else did I would have a right to object., however unless the singer was saying inflammatory racist comments,I would let the performer continue and then try and discuss the matter privately
the uk folk scene is in my opinion tolerant, the audience has a right not to applaud, but generally speaking discussion privately is in my opinion the best way to approach differing political viewpoints

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 05:41 AM

Musket: "You know, the words "socialist" "conservative" and "liberal" tend to conjure up different images in The US than they do over here. So Goofus for once may have an excuse for his confusion."

No confusion at all, They are ALL bought and paid for, and people who subscribe so wholeheartedly to any of them is not only confused, but manipulated to be that way!!

To whom it may concern:
Let's take a musical example of one of the earlier masters of 'social commentary'...and most all here would agree that he certainly helped in getting the ball rolling, insofar as 'social consciousness'...Reminisce, and enjoy!!
..ahh, the memories...and he, Joan and the song made the 'straight establishment' both puzzled, leery..but the song was GREAT...and it got everyone's attention....right??....but wait, this 'social commentator' also wrote this song in that same time period....and just as objective ....which brings us back to the topic of the thread.. "Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative"....(and let's not forget Barry McGuire's "Eve of Destruction", which he still performs, while punctuating his concerts with Christian evangelism!

Both McGuire's "Eve of Destruction" AND Baez doing "There But For Fortune" came out about the same time(roughly), and because both those songs addressed the human condition, FROM THE HEART, and were great tunes, they caught our attention...they became 'anthems of hipness'....and we took an interest in what these people were about. Shit, it started a trend in the 'mainstream' young, idealistic, looking for direction, youth who felt various degrees of disenfranchisement....YOU may just have been one of them...so ya' buy a guitar, and venture onto your lifelong quest..to be a wannabe....never writing or composing shit that was THIS hip.....but the political rap seemed close enough...and you cherry pick the stuff, that doesn't betray how really lame you were....and after a short while, you become the very establishment, you THOUGHT you were rebelling against.
We used to have an expression that described people like that.."If ya' 'turn-on' a lame, whatch you get, is a 'turned-on' lame".
....and you hope I'm talkin' 'bout somebody else.....and the biggest lames are the deepest entrenched ones, and will not, can not...even refuse to admit, that their life's approach, is so screwed up with political mental illness...they make excuses for every hypocrisy shoved down their idealistically gullible throats..just not to consider, that the very bullshit that they embrace, really gets in the way of the music and lyrics they COULD be writing and performing, that says WAY MORE as a 'social commentary' than the re-hashed, regurgitated political crap that they also savor....and in doing so, the only people who would even listen to those 'political protest songs' are just idiots who haven't flashed yet, that compassion for humans is NOT the job, nor the intention of ANY political persuasion....it's all window dressing the control games...and you are welcomely invited to be an ineffectual 'non-threat', and your music reflects it....with nothing to say..that isn't controlled!

.....and then you grow up to be old farts, still clinging to the life raft of some 'group identity'!!!......when you COULD HAVE been a musician/poet, with something REAL to say.....and one emerges, both the 'Conservatives' and 'Liberals' will dig up some sort of label('right' or 'left') to brand you, so they can both continue to stop up their ears...and deflect the truth, that you are the lame!!!

So Sincerely,

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 05:45 AM

Thanks for support, Ake. There are a lot of well-meaning 'none so blind as those that won't see'-ers around these parts: many of them, like Vic & Jack, people whom I generally regard highly. I name those two in particular, as I am left wondering what they mean by expressing themselves 'saddened' [they have both used the word either 'sad' or 'saddened' in relation to their reactions to my posts] that my views do not entirely concur with theirs? What an impertinent nerve on their parts to feel 'sad' if not every one of my perceptions of, or reactions to, every phenomenon happens to be identical with their IMO jejune idealism. Bloody cheek! Makes me sad!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Johnny J
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 06:11 AM

Firstly, what do we mean by "politically conservative"?

These labels don't tell the whole story and even less so these days especially in UK politics today.

As you will be aware, many Labour politicians have been accused of being "politically conservative" (The SNP actually call them Red Tories but they can't talk as there are several in their midst too). However, electoral support from both parties even if not the majority of the membership also includes many "conservative" often with a small "c". Otherwise, they would never get into power at all and vice versa. Many Tories have "leftish" views on various issues.

Likewise, folk singers will often feel more strongly on one issue than another. So, it is entirely possibly for "Conservatives" to be sympathetic about many social issues, be anti War, or fox hunting etc and so on.
However, I agree that you don't get that many "right wing songs" and those that there are seem to be frowned upon.

Another thing which hasn't been mentioned is that there seems to be less concern about one's political leanings when it comes to playing tunes. Of course, most folkie musicians also tend to be "to the left" and the bulk of traditional music originated from humble sources although this isn't always the case. The "upper classes", especially in Scotland have had a keen interest in the music too especially during the 19th century and so on.... e.g. Gow and co played for dancing in prestigious ballrooms etc, William Marshall was The Duke of Gordon's butler etc.
There is also a very strong tradition of interest and promotion of piping in the army, police and so on. Hardly left leaning organisations and the clarsach/harp until fairly recently was more associated with the higher social echelons. Nowadays, even I play it.
;-))))))

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 06:13 AM

"Ewan MacColl putting on a false Scottish accent to go with his false Scottish name, it's all showbiz!"
usual old crap Muskie - shame on you
MacColl was brought up in a Scots household and was busking Scots ballads he'd learned at home to cinema queues during the depression.
His name-change had SWA to do with show-biz.
He woked i the theatre, where actors changed their names as a habit, he associated with Hugh MacDairmaid (whose real name was Grieve) and loads of others who did the same thing to promote Scottish culture and he was on the run from the police as an army deserter - take your pick as to why he changed his name.
Wonder why Robert Zimmrmann's name change is never an issue!!
The feller's been dead for over a quarter of a century - isn't it time you people made an effort t get something right?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 06:33 AM

Re De Gaulle -- Wasn't it a giggle how he couldn't stop going on about "La Gloire de la France": presumably his gloss on the fact that the French have lost every war they have fought in the last 800 years. And so he patronises us by kindly agreeing to cooperate with the leaders who really were winning the war; and then afterwards somehow infiltrating the [defeated surrender-monkey!] French into the peace process, getting them appointed to a permanent seat on the Security Council*, & all-in-all putting on dog with everyone's cooperation, instead of their being left, as they should have been, languishing on the sidelines with their tail between their poodle legs....

Or is that 'xenophobic'? If so, tough·tittie...

≈M≈

*'The Security Council consists of fifteen members. The great powers that were the victors of World War II — Russia, the United Kingdom, France, China, and the United States...' Wikipedia

Wot·the·hell are the Frogs doing in that formulation?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 06:46 AM

Good points there John J....and remember Violet Jacob our wonderful poet and songwriter who was related to the Royals, yet had a great understanding of basic humanity.

As I have said on this forum for years, its time we learned to separate social and political issues....too many of us pin on a political badge and think that anyone who disagrees with the dogma behind that badge is , evil, racist, xenophobic....take your pick.

To me politics is about how we run our economy and look after the welfare of our people. Views on social issues transcend political boundaries.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 06:51 AM

. and as to [following this drift slightly further] the Vichy French government's cooperation with the Nazi occupiers in deporting Jewish French citizens to the camps...!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:03 AM

I love the Jacobean songs yet have been a socialist all my days....how does that work in the PC world of today?
I support SNP only for Independence, because they are the only party who can deliver it. I remember the music of a culture which has now almost disappeared and would like to see it at least partially restored.....It is a sad fact of life that most political parties will say and do almost anything to get themselves elected

The SNP want to be a free independent nation, yet cynically declare that they wish to remain a member of a club which removes almost all sovereignty.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:04 AM

Oh -- but I was forgetting

'WW2 ended 70 years ago'

sez Will. So of course none of the foregoing counts.

So that's all right then

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:45 AM

I don't think anyone in this thread is attacking anyone's "right" to go off on their political hobby horse during their gig if they want to, so let's not get too excited. Also, contrary to what has been said by one poster, it is usually the manner in which the politics is presented rather than whether it fails to accord with one's own views than can cause the irritation (I don't have the right to not be irritated, of course). I get just as annoyed with lefties who do it as I do with Vin's tasteless anti-abortion songs (er, not "pro-life", by the way: I'm just as pro-life as anyone else).

Two examples (among thousands) of what I'd call a "good" way to get across a message are the songs My Old Man by Ewan MacColl and Pretty Boy Floyd by Woody Guthrie. Both heaving with poetic licence but both poetic and not polemic!

"As through this world you travel, you'll meet some funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain pen."

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:49 AM

" related to the Royals, yet had a great understanding of basic humanity."

Heheh..."yet..."

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM

Amazing how a thread on music can degenerate into a political slanging match so quickly - and how it can drag supporters of the crypto-fascist Ukip out of the woodwork - the attacks of France on France here verge on the downright racist - is "the fact that they lost every war" really a condemnation of a nation - sounds like a terminal case of 'Little Englandism' to me?
C'mon Mike - you used to have something useful and interesting to ay about folk song when I read you regularly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 08:43 AM

In my opinion Matt McGuinn was someone who could put a message across using humour. I saw Ewan and Peggy do a couple of gigs,I thought their presentation was thoughtful, well presented and professional.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 09:11 AM

"Guinn "
McGinn" Dick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 09:33 AM

Apologies.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 09:46 AM

Dislike of a particular person -- de Gaulle -- is hardly to be equated with an attack on his country. It was his idiotic boasting about his country's glory -- at odds with the realities of its military history -- to which I referred. Don't see how that could possibly be any sort of instance of 'racism' by any stretch. I am in fact very fond of France. One of my proudest memories is of being complimented on how well I spoke French by a real old dragon of a French woman police sergeant to whom I was reporting a robbery on the Paris Metro some years ago.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 09:48 AM

" is hardly to be equated with an attack on his country."
Crowing that they've never won a war is Mike, neither very adult no
or, in my opinion, very condemnatory
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 10:10 AM

Not crowing at all, Jim. Simply stating an incontrovertible historical fact which happens to be at odds with the claims made by the egregious General Charles de G. Neither crowing nor condemnation comes into it.

Or don't the actual facts of the matter ever matter to you lefties? I have often suspected something of the sort.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 10:19 AM

Matt was certainly a committed Communist, as I was in the sixties, whether he carried a card I do not know.

But he is an interesting example of some one with a minority and frowned upon political stance, who used the folk scene to further his views.
Matts communist views have always been broadly acceptable to "folkies" while other minority views(UKIP) have not.

I think the views of radical socialists could be considered at least as much of a danger to the soft centre of UK politics as the views of Mr Farage :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 10:29 AM

The French won the American War of Independence, does that count Michael?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 10:40 AM

I see your History is up to its usual standards Dave. well done.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 10:56 AM

"while other minority views(UKIP) have not."
Don't know about Matt's views, but I do know that Ukip is not frowned on for their 'minority' views - just theirneo-fascist racist ones.
"I think the views of radical socialists could be considered at least as much of a danger "
And more power to their collective elbows.
"Simply stating an incontrovertible historical fact which happens to be at odds with the claims made by the egregious General Charles de G. "
Does it really matter that France never won any wars Mike?
If if that's the case. the French people can hardly be blamed for such a 'failing' - they had as little to do with waging wars as the man in the street did in Britain.
De Gaul was no different that any other out-of-touch national leader as far as I can see.
None of them speak for any of us - or even bother consulting us.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 11:07 AM

Nobody said it 'mattered', Jim. You denounced me for stating a truth. Whether or not it had any particular significance is not part of the question SFAICS. And I didn't call it a 'failing'; the failing, if there was any such, was De Gaulle's for making false claims, not his country's for not having fulfilled them.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 11:26 AM

'The Security Council consists of fifteen members. The great powers that were the victors of World War II — Russia, the United Kingdom, France, China, and the United States...' Wikipedia

Wot the hell are the Frogs doing in that formulation?

They lost 600,000 people to the Nazis, more than the total losses to either Britain or the US, so maybe they earned it?

Britain, the US and France together didn't lose as many people as any of India, Indonesia or Vietnam individually, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Not that anybody considered giving them a voice in the reorganization of the world.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 11:39 AM

"You denounced me for stating a truth."
I didn't Mike - I disagreed with you for blaming "the French" for something that was beyond their control.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 12:16 PM

Jim, I don't think there is anything neo-fascist about the views of UKIP, considering that all other major parties have adopted them.
Which particular ones do you perceive as "neo fascist"? I don't agree with their views on the economy, but I see nothing Fascist in them, in fact they seem to want MORE freedom for the UK people, not less.

There are double standards afoot in folkdom and in your mind. Though a socialist, I have always understood that a hard left wing government would be obliged to control all sections of the population, not just the rich. But that control would obviously be acceptable in your eyes.....or perhaps you are simply a liberal dreamer?
A hard left wing government would certainly not use cut price immigrant labour to make themselves viable whilst our own people are redundant, dispirited and consigned to the scrapheap.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 12:17 PM

What was that, Jim, that you see me as having 'blamed' them for which was 'beyond their control'? I don't recall "blaming the French" for anything. You have lost me, I'm afraid.

Still, this is one of those cross-purposes conversations that could run'n'run, I suspect. So only reply if you genuinely can clarify this point by which I am exercised, as to what you perceive me 'blaming' the French for.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 12:30 PM

You wrote "presumably his gloss on the fact that the French have lost every war they have fought in the last 800 years."
I've not long been called an Anglophobe for saying I thought World War One was unacceptable murder - an accusation now common whenever someone criticises Britain by some people.
and I seem to remember that not too long ago you accused my of hating Britain because I disagreed with much of British policy
If I mis-remembered, my apologies, if not, you really can't have it both ways.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 12:42 PM

"I don't think there is anything neo-fascist about the views of UKIP, considering that all other major parties have adopted them."
Taking politicians as a yardstick is hardly a reliable judge of anything.
What makes Ukip what they are is the fact that they have nothing to offer other than mistrust of foreigners and a 'fortress Britain' approach.
Unlike other political parties, their main ploy is the race card, even though they, like the BNP have taken steps to clean up their act.
Basically they are no different than Powell's 'Rivers of Blood'
As I said last time we were here, the last 'Socialists' to play the race card in the way Ukip is, was Moseley and his Blackshirts.
The only way you will ever convince me of your claim to Socialism is when you explain exactly what you mean by Socialism - in half a century I've never come across a Socialist expressing the views you have - on race, on humanitarianism, (even on "liberalism" which you appear to detest)
As fort your attitude on homosexuality.... beyond belief - even beyond the views of those now being expressed by the most reactionary clergymen.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 12:54 PM

I still can't see where stating the fact   that "the French have lost every war they have fought in the last 800 years" can be construed as 'blaming' anyone for anything, by any definition of the word 'blame'. If you interpret this as 'blaming', would you be so kind as to explain your understanding of the word 'blame'. I, myself, cannot see how stating an accurate fact about anything can constitute 'blame' in any sense that I understand the term.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 12:57 PM

BTW, Jim -- it may seem a minor & evasive point to you: but your inability to spell correctly the name of the leader of the BUF detracts, to me at any rate, from your argument. Surely you know his name was Mosley.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:07 PM

OK.

I get 10 points for winding Jim up about MacColl, 5 for gloating over Michaels extremist views being frowned upon by serious rational people and a further 5 for dragging Vin Garbutt into it.

I lose 20 points for making a serious point somewhere in all this.

Bugger.



Jim, don't try to analyse the village idiot. It's far nicer to laugh at him than to try to take him seriously. If I took him seriously, as my good friend Musket did for a while, you end up throwing up in a bucket. Far better to look forward to reading him embarrassing himself. Anyway, he seems to have a purpose now, comforting Michael.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:10 PM

"Basically they [UKIP] are no different than Powell's 'Rivers of Blood'"

.,,.

Can you explain what you mean here, please, Jim? I can see no similarity whatever. Seems to me that is a purely illogical & irrational emotive assertion with no basis in any sort of objective truth whatever.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:14 PM

"Surely you know his name was Mosley."
I do, of course, especially as I did some electrical work for his relative, the film critic - thought I usually spelt it correctly.
Can't for a second why my mis-spelling should detract from what I say - unless you're going down with the dreaded typo-itis that seems to have inflicted some others on this forum (usually when they run out of ideas).
Perhaps we should leave it there - I apologise for having misunderstood you, if I have.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:22 PM

... apart of course from the well known leftie ploy of asserting any pov to be "racist" if one can't find any rational motive for objecting to it... like Jim reckoning my entirely accurate assertion as to the lack of success in battle over many centuries of the French being 'racist' in some way.

The lefties just don't seem to realise how damaging it is to their arguments to reduce them to nothing but an undefined 'boo-word' in this fashion.

Pathetic, really...

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:26 PM

who won battles and or wars, can on occasions depend on which country is writing the history books, my nephews and neices spent the first ten years of their life in england and learned they had won certain battles with the french, imagine their surprise when moving to france and attending french schools the learned the french had won those battles.       DeGaulles specches are no more out of touch than some of Churchills, the truth of the matter is that the British Bulldog[ Churchills words] was in effect a toothless poodle without some other assorted dogs of different nationalities] the UK   could not have won the second world war without the help of a number of people,who included in no particular order of importance, de gaulle and the french resistance, America, Soviet union,and others.
if you wish to criticse the french, would not a more appropriate criticism be of Vichy France? and the FASCIST COLLABORATORS. One thing De Gaulle was not, was a fascist collaborator.
if you want to blame someone for the EU, why not blame Edward Heath one time Conservative prime minister,
De Gaulle, against the UK joining, I would have thought you would have liked him for that, you being in favour of the uk leaving
                                                        
        
1967: De Gaulle says 'non' to Britain - again
The French President, Charles de Gaulle, has for a second time said he will veto Britain's application to join the Common Market.
He warned France's five partners in the European Economic Community (EEC) that if they tried to impose British membership on France it would result in the break-up of the community.

All five - Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Italy and Germany - have said they would support negotiations towards British membership.

Only France remains opposed.
Back to the original thread.
I nominate UffaFox he sang songs of the sea[ often classified as folk songs].

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:27 PM

"Can't for a second why my mis-spelling should detract from what I say" ---

Hasn't there recently been a thread going on that very point? Might be worth checking it out.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:33 PM

Lilo, you are the wrong side of history here. Form Wikipedia, just for starters:

"France played a key role in the American Revolutionary War (American War of Independence; 1775–1783). After the Americans captured a British army, France recognized and allied itself with them in 1778, declared war on Britain, provided money and matériel to arm the new republic, and sent an army to the United States. French intervention made a decisive contribution to the U.S. victory in the war. Motivated by a long-term rivalry with Britain and by revenge for its territorial losses during the French and Indian War, France began secretly sending supplies in 1775. Spain and the Netherlands joined France, making it a global war in which the British had no major allies. France obtained its revenge, but materially it gained little and was left with over 1 billion livres in debts that seriously weakened the government on the eve of the French Revolution."

Sort of makes you sympathise with Mike actually.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:36 PM

De Gaul??..What 'Folk song' did he play???...This thread is about, 'Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative'..Why are you 'debating' him????
Just like lightweight lames..change the subject and avoid the issue!!...then degenerate into pedantic nonsense...typical.

Let's stick to the topic at hand.

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:38 PM

Oh yes, Dick -- the pathetic Heath is much in my mind regarding that debacle. But my point was that the egregious de Gaulle was using the question to avoid having to thank anyone for what they had done for him during the war. He was in fact getting revenge on us for putting him in a position where any decent gentleman might have been expected to express a bit of appreciation. He was just too vain & self-important ever to admit that he had any reason to feel any gratitude for the services of assistance and asylum afforded him during his exile.

And, yes indeed!, he had a lot to do with the Resistance -- from a nice safe distance. Good rhyme there, innit. Might work it up into a polemical poem some time, eh!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:49 PM

Dave, your North American history is a bit off. The French participated in the revolution, but they did not "win" it.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 02:23 PM

I am sure that is what they teach in American schools Lilo. But without French intervention it is pretty clear that the rebellion could have been contained.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 02:56 PM

Jim, you(I suppose deliberately)ignore my point about double standards and proceed on a rant about non existent racism and homophobia. UKIP from what I have read do not mistrust foreigners, they seem to think that we(the UK) are being forced into taking too many, due to the policies dictated by the EU.
Hardly a "fortress Britain", they recommend enlarging our number of trading partners to include most of the world....our trade with the countries of Europe would also continue unhindered after withdrawal.

My views on humanitarianism and "liberalism" :0)....come on Jim what kind of socialist are you, you know that in a Capitalist society "humanitarianism" comes a very poor last, all that matters is another day another$...you are kidding yourself!
Detest "liberalism"....bloody right I do, "liberals" in the mould of the anonymous trolls, stalkers and scumbags who infest this forum do not deserve anything other than detestation......and I am sad to say you, who aught to know better, encourage them.

Homosexuality what do you know about my opinions on homosexuality? I have none other than the fact that it is here amongst us.....nothing to see...move on.
Perhaps you are referring to my "hatefilled" views on homosexual health rates? well may I direct you to the offices of Public Health England and The Centre for Disease Control, who will inform you that the percentage rate of new infections of Syphilis and HIV amongst male homosexuals is higher than all other registered demographics combined......does that make you think Jim?.....no I don't suppose it does....to make you actually THINK would take a ton of TNT.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 02:57 PM

"like Jim reckoning my entirely accurate assertion as to the lack of success in battle over many centuries of the French being 'racist' in some way."
Thank you for accepting my apology so gracefully Mike - much appreciated.
Can't recall having ever received one from you - or others - for having been called an Antisemite for daring to criticise Israel - ah well - that's life!
Yours as ever - Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 03:07 PM

MGM and his pals reminds me of the occultist rocker Genesis P-Orridge. He would often talk about his body modifications to interviewers, but couldn't let them leave without documenting it by showing them his pierced penis.

The OP asked for examples of conservative singers. OK, MGM is to some degree a singer and a bottled-in-bond conservative, but we didn't need him to drop his trousers to prove it.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 05:32 PM

I posted this earlier, but doesn't seem to have taken
.,,.

More than somewhat mystified as to your meaning, I fear, Jack. Have not the privilege of least idea what you on about here. What have my Tesco beige corduroys to do with anything?

Jim: my recollection from those lang-syne exchanges is that I did withdraw the antisemitism allegation. In case I failed to do so, then [better late...!] I do so now.

It was a somewhat conditional apology ("if I have misunderstood..."); but such as it is I am happy to accept it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Mystery Guest
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 06:06 PM

I see you're still floating around this thread 'guest from Sanity'. Having been so typically critical of this forum of me posting anonymously, you never did answer my question as to whether 'Guest from Sanity' is what it says on your birth certificate??????

Several years ago I posted (with my real name) on mudcat, asking a question about a specific song, and did receive some helpful replies, but amongst them was a really vitriolic response (from one of the contributors to this thread) complaing that I'd not been back on the forum to say thank you. As it happens, I have a life, I'd spent two nights gigging, and a weekend in the studio (with a nationally known band) and did not have time to look at the responses to my question. How many other people have had this experience of mudcat. That's why, on the very odd occasions I chose to visit mudcat, I prefer to post anonymously.

It really is high time you all grew up! This site could be an absolutely wonderful resourse if it wasn't for the fu.king idiots who populate it.

Time for the so called 'moderators' to clean it up! Why not forget the childish bickering and concentrate on the music that this site si supposed to be about, or is that too difficult for you???

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:17 PM

Surely it wasn't just a case of the French intervening in North America though Hi-lo? The conflict then expanded globally into a much wider conflict where Britain was fighting not just France but Spain and the Netherlands too. North America was just one theatre in a more global conflict.Something similar to how the Jacobite Rebellions were one aspect of a wider conflict. What ifs are interesting but of course they can't be proved either way.

As to what someone else mention - what is taught in schools in the US? I don't think the said subject is given much space here in the UK if it is given any space at all. Certainly both my kids did Higher History recently and the subjects taught were the Reform Act, First World War and funnily enough my son did a lot of work on the American Civil War (which he didn't particularly enjoy) but can't remember either of them even mentioning the American Revolution. Never touched it when I did history either. I remember doing the Reform Act, First World War and Russian Revolution! I think Brits in general will be pretty ignorant re the details of American Indepedence.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:29 PM

Hi, Allan-

I think that U.S. history textbooks have always taught that the French played a key role in the U.S. revolution. I think that to say they "won" the revolution, would be going too far, but their role was essential.

If I recall correctly, the Irish depended on the French in their revolution of 1798. The French didn't make good on their promises, and the Irish lost. In this case, I think it's fair to say the French "lost" the 1798 Irish rebellion.

What's the difference between France losing the one and not winning the other?

I dunno. I think I'm going to have to ponder that awhile.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:59 PM

French Colonial Empire.

As a BTW, I find the word 'frog' in reference to French people extremely offensive.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 09:03 PM

Would 'Toads' do??

How about polliwogs??

How about, 'Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative'??


GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 09:52 PM

Toads and frogs are not the same. And toads don't like their name being bandied about, either.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 12:31 AM

The French sometimes use the nickname "les Rosbifs" for the Brits -- entirely analagous to the vv use of "Frogs": a ref to what is traditionally regarded as a favourite in the diet of the other. I think in either case it is meant rather affectionately teasingly than offensively.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 12:52 AM

As a BTW -- I think both frogs' legs and escargots [snails cooked in a garlic and butter sauce], both regarded with suspicion by many Brits as items of diet, among the most delicious of dishes.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 12:53 AM

... so I think I can claim that, tho I may be politically conservative, I am far from gastronomically so.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 02:41 AM

Stunning.

Michael has a pop at the French, which lets face it is illogical, historical and fuck all to do with the reality we live in, but by bigotry standards is fairly tame.

Everybody is shouting at the old fool.

Meanwhile, Akenaton repeats his false claim that gay men carry diseases, misrepresenting clinical data he doesn't understand in order to bolster his sick claim and not a peep.

Good old fucking Mudcat.

I'll just wait for the next email from Joe I suppose....

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 04:09 AM

Well, yes, Musket, it's clear that Ake has a distorted understanding of statistics....but we've been through that before, so why bother about it? What does that have to do with conservative folksingers? I don't know if Ake is a folksinger or not. All I know is that he mustn't have done very well in Statistics class. If the rest of the general populace combined has a 0.01 percent rate and homosexuals have a 0.011 rate, the rate for homosexuals is higher - but insignificantly so.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 04:14 AM

What 'pop'? Saying I enjoy their cooking? "Och-me a pop!" as they used to say in the East End where my grandpa came from.

Trouble with you, Muskititz, is quite simple:-

You just are not right bright.

Voilà-tout...

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 04:45 AM

Funnily enough, I was pointing out that everybody is having a pop at Michael and coming over indignant that anyone could be so xenophobic yet nobody seems interested in sheer hatred as expressed by the Scottish creature.

I brought nothing up Joe. I commented on previous posts and reactions. You also seem more interested in health statistics than the concept of using them to promote bigotry. Falling right into the trap, which considering it is an argument used by The Vatican to denigrate people, isn't really surprising.

Three gay people have stopped posting on Mudcat to my knowledge because Joe Offer refuses to acknowledge hatred, saying it's free speech. Disappointing, and for that matter, goes against Max's rules for Mudcat.

Michael meanwhile fails to see that in a small way, I could be seen as defending him, if not his odious views. I'm sure nurse will explain to him after his nap.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 04:47 AM

Well, thanks a gr8-big-bunch, Popgun.

Why, with friends like you...

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 04:57 AM

That is right Joe but I was just pointing out that it was more than French intervention in North America. The British also ended up fighting the French and Spanish in the Med and eastern Atlantic as well as in the Caribbean and the French in India - plus during the conflict a related war against the Dutch also broke out. It is impossible to say one way or the other as to whether these other European powers entering the conflict ultimately swung the balance or not and eventually convinced the British to seek terms. What ifs are by their nature improvable. It was bound to have made a substantial impact though.

As to the Irish thing it was pretty similar to the Jacobite threats. The French and British were continually at loggerheads if not all out war. The 45 Jacobite Rebellion was also ultimately dependent on a French invasion which ultimately never happened. Excepting that it is debatable whether the French monarch actually really cared which member of the British royal family was on the throne anyway. Just because the French invasion never happened doesn't mean it was a complete failure for them and they were probably happy with the outcome. Their stoking the fires of rebellion in Britain meant that ultimately large swathes of the British and Hanvorian army on the continent was withdrawn from the main theater of war to defend England and regain control in Scotland. That was of great advantage to the French and strengthened their position immensely. Within a couple of years Britain and France were at peace. The British insisted that one of the terms was that France exile the Stuart Pretenders which the French were happy to concede to. The Stuarts were simply expendable pawns in a much wider French strategy as were the Irish at other times.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:00 AM

OK, I'm moving this to the non-music section, since the thread has very little to do with music. It's quickly denigrating into the usual squabble of the usual suspects, so I expect that it will be closed soon. I'll leave that decision to the usual moderators, since I no longer see any need for this thread to be in the music section.
-Joe-

P.S. Allan Conn, I'm enjoying your comments.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:01 AM

"(I suppose deliberately)ignore my point about double standards"
What double standards Ake - you mean claining to be a socialist and supporting Ukip - doesn't come more double than that
"A hard left wing government would certainly not use cut price immigrant labour to make themselves "
A hard left government wouldn't oppose immigration on any grounds and it certainly woudn't turn away refugees or suggest that they are rife with terrorists - as you have done.
Nor would they persecute significant minorities because of the sexuality they were born with - sick, sick, sick
Your's and Ukips policy of keeing them all out is eier Socialist nor human - it is extreme rightism - such stuff are Ukip and the BNP made of
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:08 AM

Jim you are just talking a lot of nonsense. The "double standards" referred to the attitude of folk club audiences and their acceptance of differing political views.
I do not support UKIP, but I am not so ideologically bound that I cannot accept some policies of alternative political parties as "sensible"
"A hard left government wouldn't oppose immigration on any grounds", cant believe you really wrote that Jim....on any grounds? now I know you have lost the plot.
No one is seeking to persecute a tiny minority (1.5% of the population) You were being referred to the rates of infection which affect that sexual minority, which the health agencies say are very significant indeed. If anyone is "sick, sick, sick," it must be the health professionals who compile these figures.

Not one UK Party wish to stop immigration altogether, and I certainly do not.....we are discussing UNREGULATED immigration from within the EU....I agree with UKIP and the other major parties that we must have a degree of control over our borders. That does not mean prohibiting everyone from entering.

You are simply becoming irrational Jim, you are obviously moving in the wrong circles. Try to avoid stalkers and anonymous guests, or usernames starting with M and ending with t......you will probably find they are all the same person. :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:11 AM

as a general rule i'd say (again) the right don't make art , their purpose is to buy and sell it

i'd question if any country ever wins a war - certainly no individual involved wins anything. many folk songs are written about the poor bloody infantry, press ganged into fighting for the wealthy and powerful. such songs express a common humanity and acceptance of such matters as liberty, equality, fraternity and a love of peace. and love. all concepts routinely sneered at or mistrusted by the right wing.

if britain had shared a very long border with nazi germany, it's safe to say that we would have many collaborators - particularly among the upper classes and their gullible fools in ukip and the tory party.

ake - before you come out with this socialist nonsense again, do you still think that immigrants are responsible for the poverty and other social problems in glasgow? are you an international socialist who believes in equality and co-operation between all workers across the world. or a national socialist?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:29 AM

achmelvich, I have no idea what you are referring to, please explain.
Your contribution makes no more sense than Jim's.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:34 AM

If it's any help, I try to be a practical practicing socialist...but looking again at your last post, you don't really deserve any help.

just one large helping of Godwin's Law.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 08:12 AM

as far as your contributions are concerned ake - i was referring to a discussion last year about immigration when you reckoned that it was responsible for poverty and social problems in glasgow and elsewhere.
would have thought that and the rest of my post was straightforward enough. what is godwin's law? do i really want to know?

other than the possibility of peter bellamy are there any other right wing folk singers that we may have heard of?   more interestingly, why not?

i reckon billy connolly is more than a bit keen on folk music - he certainly liked the incredible string band

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 08:23 AM

Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Nazi analogies)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"[2][3]—​that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism. -- Widipedia

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 08:25 AM

WiKipedia -- fud it!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 08:31 AM

it wasn't me that started it!

(Playground Law?)

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 08:32 AM

Thank you Michael.

Sorry achmelvich, I still have no memory of the assertions that you make; perhaps you were mistaken and are referring to the Pakistani community in Glasgow who do not in general integrate due to their Muslim beliefs?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 08:36 AM

BTW   ach, where have I mentioned "National Socialism", or Hitler for that matter?

I think that you just took the opportunity to be personally abusive.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 08:40 AM

"The "double standards" referred to the attitude of folk club audiences and their acceptance of differing political views."
I was referring to the fact that, as far a I am concerned, you wouldn't recognise double standards if they waddled up and bit you on the bum.
Your nonsense, about "hard left governments" of which you demanded a response, was unworthy of comment and has s.f.a. to do with folk clubs, which makes me perfectly entitled to respond in any way I see fit.
And now you are resorting to personal abuse, which you forever complain about.
Can we all have the copy of your rule book that allows such behaviour?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 09:07 AM

"BTW   ach, where have I mentioned "National Socialism", or Hitler for that matter?"
Where has anybody here, apart from yousrself?
You appear to be imagining abuse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 09:21 AM

It was achelmevitch who did == 0711 am.

"if britain had shared a very long border with nazi germany, it's safe to say"

Why not look for yourself, Jim, instead of making baseless accusations against the wrong person? All Ake was doing was querying that from ach... I can't find anything Ake had said which gave rise to such a speculation, but ···

Oh, dear; doesn't life get complicated...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 09:40 AM

Simples.

A socialist would support freedom of residency and work within a cohesive economy. A national socialist would want the benefits of others whilst protecting their patch for themselves regardless of how that affects others.

Don't worry, "socialist" is just a word he picks up and uses. It's why it isn't a good idea to swear when children are around.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 10:10 AM

"Why not look for yourself, Jim, instead of making baseless accusations"
We're all prone to mistakes Mike - even us 'lefties'.
Spitefulness really doesn't become you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 11:01 AM

" do not integrate due to their Muslim beliefs."

It gets better.

Assuming you laugh at such pathetic bigotry.

I must have beliefs then because as I have mentioned before. If you walked into a bar, I'd put my pint down, wiping my feet on the way out.

Many people have circles of friends from work. Mrs Musket being a doctor and me interfering with doctors, as it were, we have many friends either from Pakistan or first generation UK. You talk absolute bollocks, hate filled bollocks for that matter. A vascular surgeon we know still has his house in Glasgow, renting it out because once his fellowship at Sheffield ends, he plans to take his family back there. They love the place, the people and the job. As over 12% of all hospital consultant jobs are unfilled in Scotland, I doubt that will be a problem. (His youngest has a slight Scottish accent. You get that by.. err.. Integrating?)

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 11:03 AM

Oh dear. Sorry, Jim. 'Tactfulness' is not my middle name today.

Down the garden to eat worms -- again!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM

" do not integrate due to their Muslim beliefs."
Wow - not another one!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 11:49 AM

I have a very good friend who is Indian and an orthopaedic consultant.

Does that prove or disprove anything about the integration of the Pakistani community in Glasgow?.....No, but it does go rather a long way in disproving your assertion that I am a racist?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 12:12 PM

"I have a very good friend who is Indian and an orthopaedic consultant."
Oh dear - "some of my best friends are....."
Now where have I heard that one before?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 12:22 PM

From Guest M....t 11:01 presumably?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 12:23 PM

"Would 'Toads' do??

How about polliwogs??"

How about you wake up and understand that frog in reference to French people is perjorative. If you ever visit Quebec, I'd suggest very strongly you avoid using the term unless you wouldn't mind swallowing your teeth or receiving a vertical trip down the St Lawrence. As for Conservatives anywhere, they have not been such for over thirty years now. All they have become is hate mongers. You proud of that?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 12:27 PM

Most of the Pakistani community in Glasgow have Scottish accents, none to my knowledge has Scottish wives or husbands.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 12:45 PM

Most of the Pakistani community in Glasgow have Scottish accents, none to my knowledge has Scottish wives or husbands.

Never visited Woodside Road then?

(And since when were they a "community" any more than white Rangers supporters are? They don't take orders from any heid-bummer and no institution unifies them).

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 01:06 PM

What his Indian doctor friend is all about I have no idea. Granted, pre 1948, we'd be splitting hairs here but I was referring to people who are of a Muslim faith whose origins are what is now Pakistan, just as the creature was before he came out with irrelevancies.

No matter, you can slag off anyone in the name of free speech eh Joe? Oh, apart from the creature, it seems.

Sorry but he really makes my skin crawl. I don't give a damn about Mudcat subjective etiquette or any other nonsense. His hate filled diatribe needs challenge and it is evident he is incapable of seeing reason so expressing contempt at least takes him at face value rather than ignoring his dim intellect, which in one way is perhaps even more insulting towards him.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 01:19 PM

The only "mixed faith" marriage between Muslim and Christian that I know of personally, was not in Glasgow and involved the Scottish girl giving up her religion and becoming a Muslim.

Mixed faith marriages involving Muslims must be extremely rare, see here
islamic Q&A

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 01:37 PM

Jack, they Do take orders from a "Heid Bummer". A Muslim friend of mine who runs a fast food shop in the city was reduced to a shivering wreck after a visit from his local "Heid Bummer" who dressed him down for some misdemeanour.
The guy pulled up in front of the shop in a snow white limo, walked straight into the back on the premises in full Islamic gear plus sunglasses.....he was well over six foot and built like a brick shithouse.....I asked my friend what had happened, he couldn't speak, just shook his head....in time with the rest of his body.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 01:39 PM

Oh Christ. He's confusing Muslims with fucking drug dealers now.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 01:40 PM

while acknowledging my own foolishness in getting involved in mentioning another contributor here - will try not to do it again - is this not a very boring and unpleasant thread drift. it was a reasonably interesting discussion about the politics of folk singers.....

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 01:46 PM

What's "full Islamic gear with sunglasses" when it's at 'ome?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 01:57 PM

Did anyone take the time to read the link? It fully validates my point about the Muslim faith being an impediment to proper integration of communities.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 02:13 PM

Presumably what Cat Stevens wears when catching the paparazzi for a free plug.

zzzz

I do agree Achmelvich, but I just can't let hatred be propagated without challenge. That's thread drift, yes.

Full Islamic gear. Bloody hell. I'm sure there's a website or three in China saying all Scots wear kilts and blow air into a cat's arse but I doubt even he'd be the real deal.

(Further drift. The only time I've had a discussion with a Muslim over "full gear" was respectfully asking a doctor to consider not wearing a tie on ward rounds to promote good infection prevention practice. He, like me when I was in business I suppose, felt he wanted to look his best for people as respect for them.

I won, mind...)

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM

What an ugly bloody thread this has become.
Guest.. you said,,,, Conservatives anywhere have become hate mongers. What a bigoted, stupid and hateful thing to say you self righteous arse. To write off millions of decent people in that way is as nasty a comment as I have seen on this forum. Where do you get the right to make those kinds of comments. I know a lot of conservative people, none as narrow or as ignorant as you. Comments like yours are a bloody disgrace, and you are a liberal .Sad, truly sad.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 02:31 PM

"Did anyone take the time to read the link? It fully validates my point about the Muslim faith being an impediment to proper integration of communities."
In my personal experience, of all communities, Muslims are the among the friendliest people I ever encountered while working as a self-employed tradesman in London.
I felt far more comfortable discussing my atheism with them than I ever have with a practicing Christian.
NON INTEGRATED MUSLIMS
NON-INTEGRATING BRITISH MUSLIMS
AND AGAIN
ONE MORE TIME
WANT MORE?
Don't knpw what planet you occupy Ake, but to be honest - if I was gay or Musliim or a liberal (or even Hilary Carter) you are the last person I would want to integrate with (or live next door to).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 02:37 PM

Hilary Clinton, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 02:43 PM

As long as it's not Hilary Benn! :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 02:54 PM

HiLo, get stuffed you arrogant POS.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 03:21 PM

Intelligent response. You have made some truly hateful comments. There are millions of people who are conservative, they are not near as bigoted as you. Your tactic is to attack me, or anyone else who does not agree with your nasty world view. And what do you call that.... Ah, yes, being,liberal. What a Joke.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:00 PM

Oh shit.

Do you take this piss out of lilo or braidedbeardedbruce?

Decisions decisions decisions.

The creature seems to have lost the plot even by his dim standards. The one thing you can say about Islam that does toss all believers in the same barrel is that there are no leaders, only sects of their own making under the general faith. They say a little knowledge is dangerous. Fuck me sideways.

It's a bit like saying if you call yourself a Christian you must be one of those mad sods who reckon the earth is only a few thousand years old and was made by a sky pixie or that all greyhounds go to the great Seaham in the sky.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:13 PM

Musket , you just don,t get it. Sweeping statements about entire groups of people are the essence of intolerance and bigotry. If you don,t get it is not my problem. However' you seem to spend a lot of time on this forum railing about those same kind of bigotries. So, which is it,... Some bigotries are ok and some are not?   
guest# made some hugely intolerant remarks, you may be ok with that, I find it toxic!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:52 PM

"In my personal experience, of all communities, Muslims are the among the friendliest people I ever encountered while working as a self-employed tradesman in London."

Well, after I'd moved from my Catholic school in Poplar, not a Muslim face in sight of course, I spent six years at a real rough-house of a senior high school in Walthamstow. Tough times, Thatcher in the ascendancy. The school population was about 40% Muslim (I don't actually believe that there's any such thing as a "Muslim pupil", so I use the term for convenience only). The pupils were the hardest working and the best motivated of any I taught in my career. Their parents were far and away the most likely to show up at parents' evenings and work with us constructively in order to get the best from their children. The area was notorious for racist incidents, nonetheless there was a warmth and openness that exceeded anything I experienced from anyone else I worked with.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:54 PM

Hilo ...# is one of the most decent people on the forum, I agree with his views regarding the use of derogatory terms like "frog"

Don't know why he made the remark about "all conservatives", it is completely out of character and we all have days when things get us down....Anyway you have the guy wrong, don't base your assessment on one post. Sorry to say this on open forum, but could not get you on PM...   OK #?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:07 PM

Well ake , I disagree. It was a hateful remark, very hateful, that kind of ugliness does not spring from nowhere. You may see him differently, but I find his kind of hypocrisy stunning.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 07:25 PM

I've known # on this forum for many years, always found him dead straight and fair....."The Muskets" on the other hand are "Hatred Incorporated"

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Molon Labe!
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 01:48 AM

Gallic shrug  

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:16 AM

What don't I get lilo? I stated that there are no Muslim this that or other and even the term denotes differing religious creeds under a general banner of a common set of scriptures. Try reading, me old love. Meanwhile, people who follow that path are made to feel alienated by the same scum who accuse them of not integrating.

The warped terrorists using a religion as a shield for their power based aims must be very glad to see nutters such as the Scottish creature doing their work for them, sowing seeds of mistrust, which leads to people feeling alienated.

Perhaps Akenaton might try talking to some socialists. Socialism is about equality and integration. He might learn something. Or at least he might stop embarrassing himself by claiming to be something he terms "socialist."

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:43 AM

Re the idea that the Pakistani community don't integrate due to their belief. The book below on page 39 suggests that of the households where the main income earner is from the non-white community in Scotland (which it says are mainly Pakistani, Indian or Chinese) a full third of them are married to white partners. Yes really religious people tend to marry into their own religion but that would be the same for all religions and not just Pakistani Moslems. If about a third of Pakistanis main earners are married to white people then there must be a fair bit integration going on - and of course you don't need to marry into the white population to integrate into society.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6ck5vAD3no4C&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=scotland+mix+marriage+pakistani&source=bl&ots=-XqbbNl5Vu&si

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:00 AM

It's interesting that a number of people on this forum who have claimed that Muslims do not integrate and pose a threat to Britain are staunch supporters of the Israel regime, who have just banned the book 'Borderlife' from being used in schools there on the grounds that it encourages Assimilation.
Hmmmm!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:59 AM

Allan, my point was that it was the belief, not the ethnicity of the people which was the impediment to real integration; therefore what I was saying was being wrongly construed as racism, by a couple of members earlier on.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 06:35 AM

The main impediment to integration of any ethnic or cultural community in Britain is based of xenophobia (a fear or mistrust of foreigners) - a rose by any other name.
It would help if people didn't blame the communities by claiming their religion.... whatever prevents them from integrating - it would also help if those making such claims withdrew them when they have been proved wrong.
Are you really going to walk away from your incorrect claims and ignore the evidence that Muslims are prepared become part of British society, to and have integrated?
Why am I not surprised!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 08:01 AM

Yeagh but my point was that the book I gave the link too claims people who "actually practice" a religion tend to marry within that religion. It claims that 90% of practicing Church of Scotland people marry other members of the Kirk. Then I imagine a proportion of the remaining 10% will marry other Christians or people who are just nominally Christians. If practicing Moslems tend to marry other Moslems then they are just doing the same as the wider non-Moslem religious communities. They are no different so it makes no sense to single them out. And you don't need to marry a non-Moslem to integrate anyway!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 08:17 AM

Point well made Allan
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 10:02 AM

Well, it must be very hard to be a rich loving poor hating racist homophobe and expect people to listen to songs about it!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 10:36 AM

The book Borderlife is approved for use in Israeli schools. It is just not part of the set curriculum. The removal of the book from the curriculum met with outrage from the general population. Hence, it is available in schools. Also, please note; A Book called The Trumpet In The Wadi IS on the curriculum and deals very directly with the question of assimilation.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 11:47 AM

Hi Allan, the difference is that according to the Islamic Q&A sit which I linked to inter faith marriage is actively discouraged and those Muslim men who wish to marry a female of another faith must insist on some very strict rules including the insistence that all children are brought up to be Muslims.
As far as female Muslims are concerned, it appears that they are forbidden to marry outwith the faith.
If these conditions are not adhered to, the man or woman is no longer considered a Muslim.
The Muslim community obviously adhere much more strongly to faith teaching than do our population. Nominally Christian.
Inter-marriage seems to me to be a very important part of social integration.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 11:51 AM

Thank you very much Desi for your valuable contribution to the discussion, I hope it has been noted.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 12:55 PM

"including the insistence that all children are brought up to be Muslims."
As was the case in the Catholic Church until comparatively recently.
"Interfaith marriage in Judaism (also called mixed marriage or intermarriage) was historically looked upon with very strong disfavour by Jewish leaders, and it remains a controversial issue amongst them today. In the Talmud, interfaith marriage is completely prohibited, although the definition of interfaith is not so simply expressed.[1]"
Hinduism
" 'varnaashrama' the marriage must happen among two individuals of same 'varna' ."
Zoroastrianism
"The majority of traditional Zoroastrians and Parsis in India openly disapprove and discourage interfaith marriages."
Christianity
"Interfaith marriage in Christianity
Some churches may forbid interfaith marriage, drawing from 2 Corinthians 6:14, and in some cases Deuteronomy 7:3, "
And you continue to ignore the evidence that Muslims are well adjusted and full integrated in British Society - which suggests an agenda on your part.
Have you ever considered that any reluctance on the part of Muslims to integrate into our society might have something to do with people like you?

NBC News

"The book Borderlife is approved for use in Israeli schools"        
Israel Bans Teaching of 'Borderlife' Novel With Jewish-Arab Love Story
by PAUL GOLDMAN
"TEL AVIV, Israel — Israel's education ministry has banned high schools from teaching about a that depicts a love story between an Israeli woman and a Palestinian man, reportedly because it would encourage "hatred" and assimilation.
Teachers had nominated "Gader Haya" — "Borderlife" — by Israeli Dorit Rabinyan to become part of the country's high school curriculum.
The rejection has caused controversy in Israel, where Rabinyan described the decision as an "unbelievable scandal."
In a statement, the ministry told NBC News that the book was not approved because it was "full of layers of hidden narratives, with criticism of the liberal-left part of the Israeli political spectrum, [and] wrapped in a romantic story of an impossible love.
"The professional team came to the conclusion that young adolescent may have difficulty to go in depth into these layers."
Meanwhile, education official Dalia Fenig said on Army Radio Thursday that "at this time of tensions in Israel choosing this book can fuel hatred."
Liberal Israeli daily Haaretz quoted a letter by Fenig as saying the book shouldn't be included because teens could not grasp the "significance of assimilation."
"Adolescent youth tend to romanticize and don't have, in many cases, the systematic point of view that includes considerations about preserving the identity of the nation and the significance of assimilation," Fenig was quoted as writing in the letter."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 01:40 PM

"The Muslim community obviously adhere much more strongly to faith teaching than do our population. Nominally Christian."

Last I heard, the Muslims in this country were as much a part of our population as everyone else.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 01:42 PM

"And you continue to ignore the evidence that Muslims are well adjusted and full integrated in British Society - which suggests an agenda on your part."
.,,.
What 'evidence' then, Jim? If you have it, cite it rather than simply assert its existence as being somehow self-evident. & then balance it against other such evidence as that there are those among them who consider it an act of faith on their parts cut our soldiers to pieces with machetes in the public streets -- the 'evidence' for which is that, notoriously, they did.

"Evidence" can notoriously be a slippery 'cuts both ways' concept. So let's have yours demonstrated, please, rather than merely asserted.

(& to pre-empt amother dreary argument we've had before, forget the dreaded R-word. Let me reiterate that Islam is NOT a race -- there is no racial or ethnic congruence between a Saudi, a Malay, a N Nigerian... -- but a belief system. Belief systems are not exempt from questioning or criticism, as ethnic origins might be held to be; especially when they can lead to such consequences as rubricated above.)

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 01:59 PM

OK. A previous girlfriend was a Muslim, I knew her parents well and they were disappointed when it never took off, as were we.

Many of our colleagues are in what they call mixed faith marriages and partnerships. There is no difference between any people really. If you cut across the Christian beliefs, they are just about the same. Yes, many people are slightly more in tune with an Islamic faith, mainly for family reasons, but once my Granddad died in 1948, my parents never went to chapel again. I see and indeed know of many similarities.

Michael. No Muslim used a machete on a soldier any more than any axe weilding maniac invoking God is a Christian, and the forensic hospitals are full of them. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM

Another of you half truths Jim, the book is allowed in schools., just part of the set curriculum and for older students.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 02:55 PM

"Another of you half truths Jim, the book is allowed in schools., "
You have the news item - what exactly have I edited out?
I read it first in the Irish Times- that is how I understand it.
I leave "half truths" to those who clame "every historian on the basis of a few quotrdf from less han half a dozen "historians" You right wingers can neither handle the truth or tell it.
Even if you are correct - it is a case of an extremist regime adopting the Fahrenheit 451 approach to literature in order to preserve a culturally 'pure' state - say it is not.
From Israeli newspaper Arutz Sheva
"Novel banned from Israeli schools out of assimilation fear
Education Ministry disqualifies novel depicting Arab-Jewish love story for fear it threatens adolescents' 'Jewish identity.'
Israel's Education Ministry has disqualified a novel which depicts a romance between an Israeli woman and a Palestinian man from use in high schools across the country, Haaretz reported Wednesday.
orit Rabinyan's "Gader Haya" (known in English as "Borderlife") was rejected because of the need to maintain "the identity and heritage of students in every sector" and the belief that "intimate relations between Jews and non-Jews threatens the separate identity."

Concern that "young people of adolescent age don't have the systemic view that includes considerations involving maintaing the identity of people and the significance of assimilation" was also cited as a reason for the novel's disqualification.

According to Haaretz, the book was rejected in spite of the fact the official responsible for teaching literature in secular state schools, in addition to a committee of academics, recommended adding the book to the advanced class' syllabus at the request of several teachers.
However, two senior Education Ministry officials, Eliraz Kraus, who is in charge of "society and humanity" studies, and Dalia Fenig, the acting chair of the pedagogic secretariat, both opposed the move.
"Many parents in the public education system will be strongly opposed to their son/daughter studying [this] novel, and they will see it as an attack on the contract of trust between parents and the educational system," Fenig explained.
"It should be remembered the choice of what creative work to teach is the teacher's and not the students'," she added.
"Intimate relations and certainly the open option of institutionalization via marriage and raising a family - even if this does not happen in the story - between Jews and non-Jews is seen among many communities in society as a threat to the separate identity."
"
"What 'evidence' then, Jim?"
Personal experience over 20 years backed up by newspaper reports of surveys saying exactly how they have fitted into living in Britain
What's your evidence Mike - the fact that they offend your dress sense maybe??
" Let me reiterate that Islam is NOT a race"
Nobody has ever said irt was - you said this once before in support of Keith's attack on "all male Pakistanis" - which was blatant racism in the extreme
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:15 PM

I gave you my 'evidence', Jim, that the integration was not so profound as your 'personal experience' might suggest, in 7.7 & the murder of Rigby. What other 'evidence' would you like to balance your precious 'personal experience' & 'surveys', [to which all questioned gave absolutely honest responses, of course!] for crying out loud!
.,,.
"used knives and a cleaver to stab and hack him to death" - Wikipedia.

Ooh dear: a cleaver not a machete; & ½·wit Muskititz thinks that makes a difference; & I'm the one who should be 'embarrassed'.

Christ Almighty!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:27 PM

I too have had positive relationships with many individual Muslims: fellow-students, colleagues.... So what? I remember once agreeing with a Muslim colleague at Peckham Manor School when he asked if I didn't think that European social life was far too dependent on the consumption of alcohol: indeed I think it is, often with lamentable results: much crime & violence that occurs is undeniably alcohol-fuelled indeed, and I think it something of which our society should be aware - & ashamed. Much Islamic crime, OTOH, is faith-fuelled –– which is where we came in.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:35 PM

Slow-burn: still mulling incredulously.

Jim, do you really think your 'personal experience' constitutes 'evidence' in any possible meaningful sense of the word? — "evidence' in the sense of something that might convince the enquiring or the dubious?

Oh, come on. Please!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 03:57 PM

Hilo, whist I agree that the post at 02:54pm on January 8th was intemperate and over the top, its worth noting that the thread title uses the word Conservative with a capital C. Thats not a description of a general philosophy, its the name of a particular political grouping (in the UK). And there are people whose life chances have been damaged quite severely by the said political grouping, and therefore there will on occasion be intemperate responses, and understandably so. I don't know whether the poster is such a person, but it may explain the response a bit.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:19 PM

"whose life chances have been damaged quite severely by the said political grouping"
.,,.
An interesting assertion, to be sure. Can you give some examples to justify it please, Dave? -- bearing in mind that all legislation by any grouping in power will benefit a certain demographic, which can only ever be done to the detriment of others with converse interests. That surely is what 'realpolitik' means?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:27 PM

Of course, the important thing about the proscription of marriage between faiths, is that it highlights the idiocy of "multiculturalism".
Take a look at what is happening in Germany where the clash of cultures manifested itself in women being isolated surrounded and sexually attacked by groups of men who believed they were prostitutes and "fair game"

The numbers now arriving in the West into what is basically an alien culture.....liberal in every way including sexually, have no time to adapt. Earlier intakes of migrants were smaller in number and taken over a much longer period.....we need to look and learn, very quickly.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:31 PM

Well we can start with disabled, long term sick, those unemployed who have every wish to work but find no opportunities, a whole host of public sector employees such as nurses, teachers, and now junior doctors. You may think they are undeserving, but you cannot expect them not to be angry. An awful lot of people will have been angry on Fat Cat Tuesday.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:45 PM

I can't see that such misfortunes occur only under the government of the party specified in the thread title, though, Dave. Such misfortunes are always due to a complex of factors -- international exchanges, the state of world markets, foreign policy demands and responsibilities, &c&c&c, to which all parties in power are vulnerable & over which they can only have partial control -- or none.. Every measure taken to advantage or benefit one lot will always have converse effects on another; and the government of the day has to try to strike the best balance possible, within the parameters of trying to fulfil their election promises, on the basis of which they were given this responsibility. I can remember lots of people being 'angry' at what Attlee's admin had done to them, or Wilson's, or Callaghan's; just as much as Eden's or MacMillan's or Thatcher's. Just perhaps a different lot of people, that's all; but all with their children to maintain & their lives and work to get on with...

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:52 PM

Jim , Everyone who disagrees with you is nor right wing, a troll or a thatcherite. I am none of those things. But your post re the banned book is misleading.

Dave, thank you for your pst. However, it is my view that any gross over generalization of any group is odious. It may also be intemperate but that does not make it acceptable.... does it?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 04:56 PM

Reading Musket's of 0159 again —

"No Muslim used a machete on a soldier any more than any axe weilding maniac invoking God is a Christian"

— it seems that the point he intended might have been that no Muslim could have hacked anyone to death with a machete, as the very act of doing any such thing would have constituted a sort of resignation on his part from the Muslim faith. If that was indeed what he meant, then I feel we may treat it [back yet again to my favourite quote from the sainted Jane] as a point of such fatuity as to be undeserving of the compliment of rational opposition.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:17 PM

Gosh. Pray tell me what my post really meant Michael. After all, I obviously have no fucking idea what I was typing.

Get a Horlicks and ask nurse to tuck you in. Who knows? Tomorrow, nobody will remember when you compared a few million UK citizens to a single mentally unstable loner who bludgeoned a man to death.

A while ago, you expressed surprise that I had never read your reviews in newspapers. It seems I obviously haven't exactly missed anything. Your bigotry is rather offensive. Why should I or any other normal person do anything then laugh at you and get on with talking to the grown ups?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:20 PM

ساینتیفیک آمریکن

از

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 05:48 PM

The "nurse" insult was never funny, even when musket started using it years ago.....He calls himself a liberal yet aims gratuitous insults a whole section of older people. Not only does he appear to have "no idea what he is writing", but nobody else can any effing sense of his posts.
Some sort of irrational irony no doubt.
You are the one who needs a nurse......a fucking wet nurse!!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 06:06 PM

Jeez!!....You guys must not have the mental capacity to stick to, "Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative"....the actual topic of the thread. You're all off on you LITTLE rants, that have nothing to do with anything, except trying to show off how astutely stupid you are!

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 06:58 PM

Agreed Sanity!.....getting back to the thread the old traditionals the small farmers, the tinkers, the foot soldiers, the reivers, the rovin' journeymen the horsemen, the ploughmen the matriarchs ......they were all conservatives, they all believed in god....not always the same one, but god just the same. They believed in the traditional values of personal responsibility and independence.

They sang real folk music, about pride in their work and in themselves men and women, fathers mothers the old and the young, they all had a place in the great scheme of thing.

To ask about political conservatism is meaningless, politics had no effect on these people .....only pride and survival.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 16 - 07:09 PM

Ah, nothing like a mythical golden age, is there? Bet none of them were queers either!