Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 03:29 AM

Steve, I've looked at 3 printings of "Molly the Betrayed" at the Bodleian site, all pretty much the same apart from a few words here and there and a few spelling variations. They have the lines:

That night as asleep in his hammock he lay,
He fancied he heard some sperrit for to say,
'Oh, vake up young Villiam and listen to hear,
The woice of your Molly vot lov'd you so dear.

Your ship bound from Portsmouth, it never shall go,
'Till I am reweng'd for my sad overthrow, [...]

which are similar to:

[...] But as in his cabbin one night he did lie,
The voice of his sweetheart he heard to cry.

O perjur'd villain, awake now and hear,
The voice of your love, that lov'd you so dear;
This ship out of Portsmouth never shall go,
Till I am revenged for this overthrow.

Those two stanzas are in the Roxburghe-type text, but not in "The Cruel Ship's Carpenter" (or in the Deming version, for that matter).

That would be my main reason for thinking the burlesque must have started from the old broadside version, rather than from CCS, but it also has new material that doesn't have a close parallel there or in CCS.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 06:39 PM

I've been finding this discussion of a song I'm very interested in really useful - thanks all. Though trying to follow the thread on a phone on the other side of the world doesn't make it easy to analyse everything as thoroughly as I'd like. I was looking at 'Pretty Polly' from the point of view of Cecil Sharp's Appalachian collection, so was effectively working backwards from the North American versions. I was interested in three features that occur in the texts of most of those:

'Leaving the small birds to weep and to mourn' - retained from the old 'Gosport Tragedy', but not in any of the British 'Polly's Love'-type broadsides, or oral texts.

'A spade standing by' - not in 'Gosport', but unlikely to have been an American interpolation as it's present in nearly all the 'Polly's Love' BSs in England. Jim Brown has now tracked it back to 1801 in Scotland (though of course it might go back further than that). Thanks, Jim.

'You guessed about right' (or similar) - replacing 'he said that is true' in v16 of GT. This seems to be present in many of the US and Nova Scotia texts (though not all), but I've never seen it in a print copy apart from the Forget-me-not / Deming / Baltimore example discussed here. So can we say that is definitely an American addition?

Quite apart from that is the question of how and when the older ballad got shortened to the three-line stanza familiar from bluegrass repertoire. Any ideas, Richie? From what I can remember of Sharp's Appalachian versions there were examples of both types coexisting in the mountains, with some in the old triple-time and some in 4:4.

And then there's the question of how the ballad got to the mountains in the first place: oral tradition amongst British migrants, early American broadside (maybe picked up in Philadelphia by migrants), or a bit of both?

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 06:36 PM

Had a look at that Massachusettes broadside catalogue on Google Books.
The Fleets were printing at the Heart and Crown from 1731 to 1776 and then they move to the Bible and Heart, but the Bible and Heart was a printing house in 1738 (see item 693) 'Printed and sold at the Bible and Heart in Cornhill, Boston.' Not many printed ballads appear to have survived from the period, though it mentions Fleet purchasing in 1748 a stock of captured Papal Bills the backs of which he used to print ballads on.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 06:23 PM

I have a copy of the original sheet music somewhere but didn't think to look closely at what it is likely derived from. I'll have a look tomorrow. I just assumed it was a send up of CSC. I don't think it's very early, not before 1840.

Some of these ballads (Lord Lovel, George Collins) appear to be burlesques of something else lost to us. Some are characterised by a brisk and jolly tune. Walpole certainly thought Lord Lovel a burlesque in the 18th century and that's the earliest record of it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 05:14 PM

Thanks, Steve. The text rather falls flat on the printed page, but I suppose a performer with a knack at doing funny voices could have made something of it. In this case, would it be fair to see the burlesque as a kind of last recycling of the old Gosport ballad, squeezing some humour out of a once serious song that was now well out of date, while the "Cruel Ship's Carpenter" took over in the oral tradition as the serious version of the story?

I'd never come across the song with the shrimps before, but I've just found "The Lover's Lament for her Sailor" at the Bodleian broadside ballads site, and followed a handy cross reference there to "The Sorrowful Ladies Complaint" at Santa Barbara. It looks to me as if even the shrimpless 17th C. version was already asking for a burlesque performance -- but as you say, tastes change.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 03:43 PM

I should also add that quite a few of the burlesque versions soon went back into oral tradition and became serious songs. A good example is 'Ah, my Love's Dead' one of Cowells' burlesques which is nowadays sung regularly in folk clubs as a serious song with those shrimps swimming over her head. This tickles me every time I hear it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 03:39 PM

Much of the humour in these burlesques was in the actual performance. Joe Grimaldi was adept at this type of grotesque humour and Sam Cowell must also have been somewhat later. Much of the humour was derived from exaggerated pathos as in Villikins. Barbara Allen, Lord Lovell, Giles Collins, William Taylor and many others were treated in the same way. Look at any of the many 'comic' songsters of the 18th/19th centuries and you'll wonder what they found funny in them. Tastes do change over time. More recently Harry Lauder was billed as a comic singer but do we find any of his songs funny today?

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Gutcher
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 03:16 PM

Man Jim ye maun be mair gleg o the uptac nor masel gin ye can see ocht o humor in a wheen wee whigmaleeries o screived print.

You can check out the wee dots for yourself on page 49 vol. 2 of the Greig Duncan collection.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 02:12 PM

Hello Gutcher,

It's good of you to post these and fill in a gap in the picture.

The two lines in the first one are from the old broadside text. The Roxburghe and other 18th century broadsides have: "At the fall of the damsel and her daughter dear, / In Gosport church they bury'd her there." The Scottish chapbooks and Peter Buchan have variations around "At the fall of a damsel and baby so fair, / And in Gosport church-yard they buried were." or "At the fate of the damsel and baby so fair, / And in Gosport Church-yard they buried her there." Since the Greig-Duncan lines mention the "baby so fair", I would reckon they come from a version of that sort. (They're certainly not from the American Deming version, which doesn't have those lines.)

The second one is from the burlesque version, "Molly the Betrayed or The Fog-Bound Vessel". Maybe the tune makes it funnier, but as far as I can see, apart maybe from the second line, more usually "For grammar or graces none could her excel", pretty much all the humour seems to come from making fun of people who pronounce "w" as "v" (Cockneys?) - though fit for the Aiberdeenshire fowk wad hae lauchit at that is mair nor A can faddom.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Gutcher
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 11:16 AM

Hello Richie
Two from Greig Duncan

[1] THE GOSPORT TRAGEDY
    Willie and Nancy of Yarmouth

    For the death o" their daughter and baby so fair
    In Gosport churchyard and they buried her there.


[2] VILL. THE SHIP"S CARPENTER

{1}   In a kitchen in Portsmouth a fair damsel did dwell
       Who for beauty and grammar none could her excel
       She loved a gay feller whose name it was Vill
       And to his trade was a ship"s carpenter
         sing Dottle dottle dottle chip chip chip
             Turaliday

{2} He led her o"re hills and o"re valleys so deep
       Till at last this poor maiden began for to weep
       O Villiam I doubt you"ve a led me this way
       In order my innocent life to betray
         With your Dottle dottle dottle chip chip chip
             Turaliday

Sorry I cannot type the two tunes

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 11:07 AM

Hi Richie,

It's interesting to see the different versions listed geographically like this. The first thing that strikes me is how little evidence there is of any singing tradition of the old Gosport ballad in Britain. Buchan's text is the same as that in the Scottish chapbooks of about 25 or more years earlier. Christie's six sample stanzas are from Buchan (but that doesn't mean the singer wasn't singing the same version). Ethel Findlater's is very close to the Deming broadside (or perhaps we should now say the Baltimore broadside), so most likely derived from an American source. You'd think the Gosport ballad must have been popular in the C18 to judge by the number of printings, but perhaps the success of "Polly's Love" drove it out of tradition. It would be interesting to know what the version in the Greig-Duncan collection is like - but my bets would be on its being similar to Buchan and the chapbooks, being in the same part of the country as Buchan and Christie's singer.

Rather than having to assume that Deming-specific elements in the Newfoundland and Nova Scotia versions got there via a now lost British C18 broadside, isn't it plausible enough that they simply indicate the more recent (19th C)circulation of the American version itself there, whether in broadsides or books? The text in Mackenzie is clearly simply the Deming text itself, probably memorized by the singer and slightly modified in her recollection. It's not something independently derived from an earlier version of it. I know other singers don't reproduce the text so closely, but by the time these oral versions were recorded, the Deming version had been around for more than a century, so would have had plenty of time not just to spread in print but also to mix with other versions (like "Polly's Love") in oral tradition.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 10:21 AM

Hi,

An update: The American Antiquarian Society houses an earlier version of The Deming Broadside published in Baltimore between 1810-1819. Although the original source to the Deming text may never be known, traditional versions with text unique to the Deming broadside have been brought to Maritime Canada and Appalachia indicating the source could be a British broadside from the late 1700s which may have disappeared.

Additionally I've organized the traditional text of Gosport here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/list-of-ballads-variants-of-the-gosport-tragedy.aspx

I am missing the Greig-Duncan version and can't seem to find it. I've looked at the table of contents in Volume 2 and it's not there. If someone could find out the volume or has access and can post text it would help.

                                        GOSPORT VERSIONS

A. British Isles (Title, Location, Informant, Collector, Approximate date; Associated broadside)

   1. "The Gosport Tragedy", no location or informant given; taken from print; Peter Buchan, 1825. Type Aa
   2. "The Gosport Tragedy" Port Gordon; Air by Jamie Coul, William Christie pre1881 [text from Buchan.]
   3. "The Gosport Tragedy" [ ] Greig-Duncan vol. 2, p. 49, no. 201
   4. The Gosport Tragedy," Orkney Island; Ethel Findlater

B. North America (Title, Location, Informant, Collector, Approximate date; Associated broadside)

             B. CANADA

   a. Newfoundland
       1) The Cruel Ship's Carpenter or Gosport Tragedy- King's Cove (NL); J. Hincock; Karpeles; 1929; Types Ba and Ca
       2) Pretty Polly- St. Vincent's (NL); D. Dobbin; Leach; 1951; Types Aa; Ba and Ca
       3) Gosport Tragedy- Seal Cove, White Bay (NL); J. Osborne; Peacock; 1960; Types Ba and Ca

b. Nova Scotia
       1) The Gosport Tragedy Tatamagouche (NS); Mrs. Margaret Curry; Mackenzie 1919 Type Ba
       2) The Ship's Carpenter- West Petpeswick (NS); T. Young; Creighton A; c. 1933;
       3) The Ship's Carpenter- Roman Valley (NS); Mrs. C. Kenny, Creighton B; pre1950; types Ba and Ca
       4) The Ship's Carpenter- Dartmouth (NS); Mrs. R. W. Duncan, Creighton D; pre1950;

   c. Ontario
       1) Ship's Carpenter (ON) LaRena Clark; Fowke; c. 1930
       2) Ship's Carpenter (ON) Leo Spencer; Fowke; 1962

   d. New Brunswick
       1) The Ship's Carpenter- Eel River Bridge (NB); G. Duplessis; Manny and Wilson

          C. UNITED STATES

   a. Maine
       1) The Gosport Tragedy; Carrie Grover

   b. Tennessee
       1) "The Cruel Ship's Carpenter- (TN) J. Stockson; Sharp B, 1916

   c. Ohio
       1) Ship's Carpenter (OH) Captain P. Nye; Lomax REC, 1937

   d. West Virginia
       1) "Young Beeham"- (WV) Cunningham; Cox C, pre1925 Type Aa; other

   e. Florida
       1) "The Ship Carpenter" Trenton (FL) Miss Inez Parrish; Morris; pre1950

   f. Maryland
       1) "Gospels of Libby" (MD) [    ] Carey, pre1970

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 03:42 PM

> where did Findlater get her version?

According to the notes on the Tobar an Dualchais website:
"Ethel Findlater learned the words from a [manuscript] book given to her by Violet Harvey, but learned the tune from her mother-in-law; some extra lines were learned from a Mrs Mongano, now in Australia."
See: http://tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/63592/2
(She lived 1899-1973.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 02:40 PM

Hi,

That's Finlander's version I used Roxburghe/Deming and then changed some text- I forgot to change that line:

This is what I have so far:

In Gosport of Late

1 In Gosport of late a fair damsel did dwell,
For wit and for beauty few could her excel;
A young man did court her to be his dear,
And he by his trade was a ship-carpenter.

2 With blushes more sweet than roses in June.
She says, "My dear William for To wed I'm too young.
Young men they are fickle I see very plain,
When a maiden proves kindness they quickly disdain."

3. Oh, my charming sweet molly how dare you say so,
For your beauty's the heaven to which I would go;
And if I find channel my ship for to steer,
I then would cast anchor and stay with my dear."

8
And he promised to meet her next morning at light;
But he says, "My dear Molly are we married be,
We must go visit some friends for to see."

9. He led her through hills and through valleys so deep
Till at length this young damsel began for to weep;
She says, "My dear William you have led me astray,
In hopes of my innocent life to betray."

10 "Oh, yes you have guessed right on earth don't you see,
For all the last night I was digging your grave";
A grave and a spade lying near she did see,
Which made this young damsel to weep bitterly.

11 When poor ruined Molly did hear him say so,
The tears from her eyes like a fountain did flow;
Saying, "Treacherous William the worst of mankind,
Is this the bride's bed I expected to find."

12 "Oh, pity my infant and spare me my life,
Let me live in my shame since I can't be your wife;
And don't take my life lest my soul you betray,
And you to perdition would be hurried away.

13 With hands white as lilies in sorrow she wrung,
Imploring for mercy saying, "What have I done;
To you dearest William so comely and fair,
Can you murder your true love that loved you so dear."

14 He says, "There's no time for disputing to stand,"
And he instantly taking a knife in his hand;
He pierced her fair

17 Being merry with liquor, he ran to embrace,
Transported with joy yet beholding her face;
And to his amazement soon vanished away,
Which he ran and told the captain without more delay.

18. The Captain soon summoned his jolly ship's crew,
Saying, "I fear my brave fellows that some one of you;
Has murdered a damsel ere' he came away,
Whose innocent ghost now haunts him on sea.

19 "Whoever he be if the truth he confess,
We will land him upon the first island we meet;
But whoever he be if the truth he denies,
He will be hung up on the yard's arm so high."

20 William in horror he fell on his knees,
Saying, "Poor injured ghost thy forgiveness I crave";
Saying. "Poor injured ghost thy forgiveness I crave.
For soon I shall follow thee down to the grave."

I'll do the rest soon - where did Findlater get her version?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 05:48 AM

My first guess would be that this Orkney version was learnt directly or indirectly from Ethel Findlater. There are some differences of wording from her version, but from the sample you give it looks very similar.

The stanzas that that are most suggestive are 19 and 20, where the two singers' versions are identical. In 19, they reverse the order of the two couplets and have a different wording for the couplet about the island, which results in losing the rhyme. And they have "yard's arm" in line 4, instead of what seems to be the more usual "yardarm" (or just "yard" in the Deming text). And in 20, they combine lines from Deming 24 and 25, with repetition of the "poor injured ghost" line.

On the other hand, in stanza 2 this version has "If a maid is not coy they will her disdain", which is the line in the Roxburghe text, while Ethel Findlater has "When a maiden proves kindness they quickly disdain", which is close to Deming. So, once again, things are not so simple.

Any clues in the book?

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 09:04 PM

Hi,

I found a version aversion in "Sitting Out the Winter in the Orkney Islands: Folksong Acquisition in Northern Scotland" by Nancy Cassell McEntire 1990. Does anyone know about this version?

It's based on The Deming Broadside as far as I can tell- here's a bit of it:

In Gosport of Late

1 IN Gosport of late a fair damsel did dwell,
For wit and for beauty few could her excel;
A young man did court her to be his dear,
And he by his trade was a ship-carpenter.

2 With blushes more sweet than roses in June.
She says, "My dear William for To wed I'm too young.
Young men are so fickle I see very plain,
If a maid is not coy they will her disdain."

17 Being merry with liquor, he ran to embrace,
Transported with joy yet beholding her face;
And to his amazement soon vanished away,
Which he ran and told the captain without more delay.

18. The Captain soon summoned his jolly ship's crew, Saying, "I fear my brave fellows that some one of you;
Has murdered a damsel ere' he came away,
Whose innocent ghost now haunts him on sea.

19 "Whoever he be if the truth he confess,
We will land him upon the first island we meet;
But whoever he be if the truth he denies,
He will be hung up on the yard's arm so high."

20 William in horror he fell on his knees,
Saying, "Poor injured ghost thy forgiveness I crave";
Saying, "Poor injured ghost thy forgiveness I crave.
For soon I shall follow thee down to the grave."

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 09:22 AM

Hi,

As far as Mackenzie's Nova Scotia version, I've found other of his "collected" versions that are also found in the Forget-Me Not songsters that are nearly identical to the Songster texts.

Here is what I call the "standard text" as found in the Roxburge and Deming broadsides that is found partially or wholly with variation in all traditional versions (Pretty Polly/Polly's Love etc.):

Standard Text Type A Roxburghe:

14. So with kind embraces he parted that night,
She went to meet him in the morning light;
He said, "Dear charmer thou must go with me,
Before we are wedded, a friend to see."

15. He led her through valleys and groves so deep,
At length this maiden began for to weep;
Saying, "William, I fancy thou leadst me astray,
On purpose my innocent life to betray."

16 He said, "That is true, and none you can save,
For I all this night have been digging a grave."
Poor innocent soul! when she heard him say so,
Her eyes like a fountain began for to flow.

(This next stanza (17) where she begs for her life is standard but the reference to her child is usually missing. The last two lines of 17 are included except for "infant":
   
    O pity [the infant], and spare my life,
    Let me go distress'd if I'm not thy wife.")

18. Her hands white as lillies in sorrow she wrung,
Beseeching for mercy, saying, "What have I done
To you my dear William, what makes you severe?
For to murder one that loves you so dear."

19. He said, "Here's no time disputing to stand,"
And instantly taking the knife in his hand;
He pierced her body till the blood it did flow,
Then into the grave her body did throw.

20. He cover'd her body, then home he did run,
Leaving none but birds her death to mourn;

Standard Text Type B: The Deming Broadside

12) With tender embraces, they parted that night,
And promised to meet the next morning at light
William said — Mary, you must go with me,
Before we are married, our friends for to see.

13) He led her through groves and valleys so deep
At length this young damsel began for to weep
Crying William, I fear you will lead me astray
On purpose my innocent life to betray.

14) He said you've guess'd right all earth can't you save
For the whole of last night I've been digging your grave,
When poor ruined Mary did hear him say so,
The tears from her eyes like a fountain did flow

15) A grave with a spade lying near she did see,
Which caused her to sigh and weep bitterly;

   (Half of 15 and part of 16 are not standard. The text in brackets should not be part of the standard text)

16) Oh, pity [my infant] and spare my poor life,
Let me live full of shame if I can't be your wife,
Oh! take not my life, lest my soul you betray,
[And you to perdition be hurried away].

17) Her hands white as lilies, in sorrow she wrung,
Imploring for mercy, crying what have I done;
To you dearest William, so comely and fair,
Will you murder your true-love that loved you so dear?

18) He said, this is no time disputing to stand,
Then instantly taking a knife in his hand--
He pierced her fair breast, whence the blood it did flow,
And into the grave her fair body did throw.

19) He cover'd the body, and quick hastened home-
Leaving none but the small birds her fate to bemoan:

(Some standard modified versions have him boarding a ship where he sets sail and the ship sinks- this is not part of the broadside text)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 04:04 PM

> I'd be curious to see the one titled: Nancy's Ghost

You can see it at:
http://ballads.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/static/images/sheets/10000/07531.gif

Here is the text:

NANCY's GHOST

In Gosport of late a young damsel did dwell,
For wit and for beauty none could her excel.
A young man courted and loved her dear,
And he by trade was a ship-carpenter.

He had not long courted till this fair one prov'd kind,
When he sent for his true love to tell her his mind,
He said my dearest Nancy will you go with me,
Before we are married my friends for to see.

He led her thro' groves and valleys so deep,
Till the innocent fair one began for to fret.
I find my dear William you've led me astray.
On purpose my innocent life to betray.

That's true my dear Nancy the truth you've said
For I was up last night digging your grave,
Not far distant the grave's waiting for thee,
And I am resolved thy butcher to be.

O spare my life William, O spare but my life,
Let me run distracted and be not your wife,
Spare my life, least my soul you betray,
Must I in my bloom be hurried away.

He said there's no time for to argue nor stand,
With that a pen-knife he took in his hand,
And he pierced her body till the blood did flow,
And into the grave her fair body did throw.

He covered her up then with the small mould,
And left none to mourn but birds and fowls,
Straight for the water he then took his way.
And entered a ship that was bound for sea.

One night in his cabin he chanced to lye,
The voice of his true love he heard passing by,
Saying, awake false William and hear,
The voice of your true love that lov'd you dear.

O talk not of valour nor courage so bold,
One night as he was going down to the hold,
A beautiful damsel to him did appear,
And she in her arms had a baby most fair.

The she did vanish with shrieks and loud cries,
And flashes of lightning flew from her eyes,
Saying, a ship out of Gosport never shall go,
Till I am revenged for my overthrow.

It looks to me as if someone has been trying to make a shorter song out of what they could remember of a longer version, but not as creatively as the author of "Polly's Love". Lines 5.3 and 5.4 are like the Scottish chapbook texts (some have "in my bloom" as here, and some have "in my youth"). The only lines that I don't think have a parallel in other texts we've looked at are 2.1, 2.2, 4.3 and 4.4.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 01:45 PM

Just a few general points I think I made some of earlier. There are very likely many other printings that have not survived or have not yet come to light. Print could move around very quickly as could the oral process, especially with mass migration at these times. We sometimes forget how rapidly print items (and not just cheap print, anthologies as well) can become part of oral tradition.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 10:30 AM

Hi Richie,

I like the idea of the ghost ripping the murderer in three and then turning round to the rest of the crew, as if expecting a round of applause, and wishing them a safe voyage.

Anyway, regarding the versions, to be more exact, it's just stanzas 22 and 23 that are new in Deming (or at least they don't appear in any earlier version that we have looked at in the course of this discussion). Stanzas 15 and 16 are also in Buchan's version and in several Scottish chapbooks of around 1800 (or perhaps earlier if I understand Steve's comment on Morren right). So they were already in circulation in print several decades before the Deming broadside. (Admittedly, Deming 16.4 changes the meaning compared with those earlier texts, where the line refers to the premature death of the victim rather than the damnation of the murderer, but the wording is still similar, and it's easy to see how the Deming line could have evolved out of the other.)

Even if those Scottish chapbooks take us back a couple of decades before 1780, that would still allow plenty of time for the ballad to have circulated and evolved in oral tradition alongside printed texts like the Roxburghe broadside. So I still don't see the need for there to have been an older version of the ballad before 1726.

As for the isolation of Nova Scotia, they still had access to broadside ballads, as W. Roy Mackenzie mentions several times - in fact in one case he suggests that the ballad he is talking about was printed in Nova Scotia (Quest p. 205). The „Gaspard" version he took down from the singing of Mrs. Margaret Curry is the Deming version practically word for word, just with a few stanzas omitted and a handful of very minor changes in wording, no more than you might expect if the singer had learnt it from a broadside or a book and then carried on singing it over a period of time without checking it against the printed text.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 10:04 AM

Hi,

Let's look at a couple versions and see if we can draw any conclusions. Broadside types will be:

1) Type Aa, the Roxburghe broadside printed between 1720 (British Library) and 1750 (Roxburghe- Ebsworth) by the printer John Cluer (before 1727), or , Elizabeth Cluer (from 1727 when John Cluer died to 1736 when William Dicey, her brother took over) or William Dicey (from 1736 to 1750)

2) Type Ba, The Deming Broadside printed circa 1835 in Boston by the printer Leonard Deming. In some cases the ballad may be associated to both broadsides or a third broadside called,

3) Type Ca, known as "Polly's Love" printed c. 1820 in the British Isles.

These types will be found at the end of each stanza in brackets [type ]

"Pretty Polly"- as performed by Din Dobbin of St. Vincent's, NL, 1951   

(Beginning of song missing)

_________ before we get married our friends to go see [standard]

He led her through roads and through valleys so neat
Which caused pretty Polly to sigh and to weep
Sayin' Willie dear Willie you lead me astray
Perhaps my poor innocent life to betray [type Ca]

It's true yes true it's true what you say
For this whole long night l have been digging a grave
She walked straight along til her grave she did spy
Which caused Pretty Polly to weep and to cry [type Ca]

Oh pardon please pardon oh pardon she cried
For l will not covet for to be your bride
I'll roam this wide world o'er for to set you free
If you only will pardon this baby and me [type Ca]

No pardon no pardon no time for to stand
He instantly taking a knife in his hand
He pierced her dear breast while her heart's blood did flow
Which caused him to that cold grave her body he threw [type Ca]

He covered her over well safe and so sound
Not thinking this murder would ever be found [type Ca]
On board of the Bedford he entered straightway
His lofty ship lay in Portsmouth bound out on the sea [type Aa]

Charlie Stewart was our bosun a seaman so bold
One night it was late he walked aft to the hold
When a beautiful damsel to him did appear
And she bore in her arms a baby most dear [type Aa]

He bein' merry in liquor he thought to embrace
Wit' transports of joy which he held in his face
She frew a one side and then vanished away
He made haste to our Captain he made no delay [type Ba]

Our Captain soon summonsed our jolly ships crew
And said my dear sailors I fear one of you
Have murdered some fair one before ye came 'way
And now she is haunting us here on the sea [type Ba]

Then up speaks young Willie I'm sure it ain't me
And up speaks another I'm sure it ain't me
And up speaks another indeed it ain't me
Till discourse it went through the whole ship's company [type Ca]

Whoever it may be it's the truth he'll deny
I'll hang him out here on the yardarm so high
But if he confesses his life we won't save
But I'll land him all on the first Island I'll make [type Ba]

Young Willie he quickly fell on his knees
The blood in his face did immediately freeze
God help me God help me for what I have done
God help me I fear my poor soul it's undone [type Ba]

Young Willie he rushed to the cabin with speed
He met this pretty fair maid which made his heart bleed
She ripped him she stripped him she tore him in three
Because he had murdered her baby and she [type Ca]

Turning round to the crew these words she did say
Now since I have taken this murder away
Good luck may attend you and you all agree
And send you safe home to your own counteree [not in broadsides]

We can see that this version, collected in a emote area in Newfoundland, have stanzas from all three broadsides. The name "Pretty Polly" is from type Ca.

What conclusion can we draw from this ballad? Why are there stanzas from three different broadsides in one ballad?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 02:07 AM

Hi,

I'm going to throw out some possible scenarios for (Ba) the Deming broadside, which was "Sold Wholesale and Retail by Leonard Deming, No. 1, Market Square, corner of Merchant's Row, Boston." about 1835.

The Deming broadside (Ba) is significantly shorter at 27 stanzas to the 34 stanzas of the nearly 100 year earlier Roxburghe broadside (Aa). Not only that, 3 more stanzas of Aa are missing in Bb and in place of theses 3 stanzas is the new text:

15.1 A grave with a spade lying near she did see,
15.2 Which caused her to sigh and weep bitterly;

16.3 Oh! take not my life, lest my soul you betray,
16.4 And you to perdition be hurried away.

22) The captain soon summon'd the jovial ship's crew,
And said, my brave fellows, I fear some of you
Have murder'd some damsel ere you came away
Whose injur'd ghost now haunts you on the sea.

23) Whoever you be, if the truth you deny,
When found out, you'll be hung on the yard be high:
But he who confesses, his life we'll not take,
But leave him on the first island we make.

Who is the source of this new text? And why is this text, especially stanza 23, found in many versions in North America? It seems possible that the older broadside Aa was used for the opening stanzas. We know this because the murdered girl's name is Molly as in the Aa broadside-- then inexplicably changes to Mary. Could it be that an editor took a traditional version of Gosport (with the murdered girl named Mary) and changed the end of older broadside (Aa) but kept the beginning (leaving off stanzas 4 and 8)? How else could stanza 23 of Ba turn up in remote, inaccessible areas such as Nova Scotia and Newfoundland? If this logic follows could it also be possible that the traditional ballad used to change Ba could actually be the older ballad, predating 1726?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 12:05 AM

Hi,

Another one from Canada --this from New Brunswick. Her name is Polly and her ghost appears to Willie instead of Charles Stuart. Lightning bolts flash from her eye, the moralistic ending- clearly this a traditional version similar to the Roxburghe broadside (London, 1720-1750 and Boston c. 1776). Most of the other Canadian ballads more closely resemble the Deming broadside.

THE SHIP'S CARPENTER- From: Songs of the Miramichi
(As sung by George Duplessis of Eel River Bridge, NB in 1950 for the North Shore Construction Company's Collection)

In Grand Lake City a damsel did dwell,
For youth and for beauty there's none could excel,
But a young man he courted her to make her his dear,
And he by his trade was a ship's carpenter.

He courted this fair one by day and by night,
And for to get married was his great delight,
But the king wanted men, to the war he was sent,
They parted to mee-et next morning by light.

"Arise, lovely Polly, and come along with me,
Before we will marry some friends for to see.
He led her through groves and through valleys most deep,
(Whereupon?) this fair damsel began for to weep.

"I'm afraid,lovely Willie, you've led me astray,
purpose my innocent life to betray."
"Oh, yes, lovely Polly, 'tis true what you say,
For the whole of last night I was digging your grave."

And on little further she chanced for to spy,
A grave newly dug and a spade laying by,
Her lily-white hand in agony wrung,
Saying, "To you, lovely Willie, what'er have I done?"

"To you, lovely Willie, so coam-lye and fair,
How can you murder your Polly that loves you so dear?
Oh, pity my infant and take not my life,
Let me live full of shame if I can't be your wife."

"Oh, this is no time disputing to stand,"
When instantly holding a knife in his hand,
It hit her fair bosom till the blood down did flow,
And into the grave her fair body he threw.

And as he covered her over, those words he did say,
'I'll leave you my darling, to moulder away."
On board of a mantle, Oh, quickly sailed he,
To sail to Bermuda far over the sea.

One night in his cabin young Willie did lay,
When the voice of the maiden to him it did say,
"Arise, lovely Willie, arise and behold,
A fair young damsel who you've led astray."

But Willie was a man of courage most bold,
He tried to escape in the very lowest hold.
She appeared to him there all in the great flight
With her babe in her arms like the image of life.

She vanished and went straight up to the sky,
And flashes of lightning came forth from her eye,
Up stepped the young Captain, also with his crew,
"You have murdered your Polly, young Willie, 'tis true."

But Willie was a-maze of this
He said he was guilty of such a sad crime.
He sailed for Bermuda far over the sea,
And Willie was taken and condemned to die.

Now, come all you young heroes, wherever you may be,
I hope you'll take warning from this sad tragedy.

(last three words spoken)

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 08:25 PM

Hi,

This is a version from Ontario probably learned about 1930 by LaRena Clark from her grandfather Watson whose fatehr came from northern England c. 1800;

"Her maternal great-grandfather, Edward John Watson, came out to
Canada from northern England early in the nineteenth century and marriedMargaret Landau, the child of an Indian woman and a French fur
trader. Their son, LaRena's Grandad Watson, married Annie O'Neill,
the daughter of George O'Neill, an Irish Catholic who was an early
settler in Pefferlaw."

Although there are some glaring inconsistencies in the text it's still based on the an earlier broadside.

"Ship's Carpenter"- From LaRena (LeBarre) Clark's grandfather Watson

1. "O Mary, dear Mary, will you take a walk?
Will you take a walk some friends for to see?
Will you take a walk some friends for to see?
And it's when we return home it's married we'll be.

2. He led her through groves and valleys so deep;
At length this fair damsel began for to weep,
"O Willie, dear Willie, you're leading me astray,
And you're ordering my innocent life to betray.

3. "O Mary, it's true are the words that you spoke.
I spent the whole of last night in digging your grave."
They went a piece farther, and there she did spy
Her grave it was dug and the spade standing by.

4. She wrung her poor hands in grief and she cried,
"You perjuring villain, the worst of mankind!
You perjuring villain, the worst of mankind,
Let me go distracted if I can't be your wife."

5. There was no time to argue her beauty to stun;
He instantly drew a knife in his right hand;
He instantly drew a knife in his right hand,
And it's blood from her bosom so quicklie he drew.

6. He covered her up and he hastened away,
Left nothing but the wild birds her grave to behold;
Left nothing but the wild birds her grave to behold,
And it's he by his trade was a ship's carpenter.

7. Oh, there had been a man in the bar-room that day
Who saw this fair damsel in the cabin so fair,
And she held in her ar-rums an infant most dear,
Which she [he] showed [told] to the Captain without further delay.

8. Oh, the captain he cried, "There's a murder on board,"
And it's they then confessed then his life they would take.
It's they then confessed then his life they would take, And they'd leave him upon the first island they'd meet.

9. Oh, poor perjuring Willie, on his two knees he fell;
"You poor injured ghost, your full pardon I beg,
You poor injured ghost, your full pardon I beg,
And it's soon I will follow you down to your grave."

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 06:05 PM

Here's more about the printing from Fowler, whose position is that the ballad was printed shortly after the murder in 1726:

"Theoretically the date of our broadside could be after the death of John Cluer, because his widow Elizabeth kept the business going and used the same imprint. Moreover when she then married her late husband's foreman Thomas Cobb in 1731, the latter managed the the Bow Church-Yard Printing Office until 1936 when William Dicey took over the business. William Dicey of course became famous as a ballad publisher, but there is no basis for placing "The Gosport Tragedy" as late as 1736, when William took over. Dicey lists our ballad in his catalogue of 1754 (unique copy in Bodleian Library), but this was very likely a new edition, of which I suspect a copy survives in the Crawford Collection (Bibliotheca Lindesiana no 655)."

Fowler does not mention, however, that Elizabeth Cluer was William Dicey's sister.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 05:46 PM

Hi,

Buchan's version is from Gleanings and is missing stanza 8 of the Roxburghe. I assume that Buchan got his from one of the chapbooks that was missing stanza 8 (thanks Jim for that info).

Also noted is the "spade standing" which now dates 1801 in the UK.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 04:28 PM

Again going by style I've always thought Morren's pieces mostly somewhat earlier than 1800, say about 1780.

I'm not sure how this fits in with your posting at the moment but Peter Buchan was briefly apprenticed to Randall before setting up his own press in Peterhead. Unfortunately very little of what Peter actually printed seems to be extant. For someone who had such an enormous collection of ballads published it has always remained a mystery that he didn't appear to print any of them on his own broadsides, or maybe he did and they somehow disappeared.

Is the Buchan version from Gleanings p46? That's the only Buchan reference I have to a version. Most if not all of the 'Gleanings' pieces were straight off broadsides. The BL version I have seen but not got a copy of was printed in Aberdeen in 1775 as the Gosford Tragedy and this had 17 and a half double stanzas.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 08:56 AM

> Here's a quick analysis of the many versions on British broadsides.

Hi Steve,

Out of the list you posted, the Robertson, Glasgow chapbook made me curious, because of having one more stanza that the usual 34.
I've found it online at the National Library of Scotland. It's dated 1801. The text is very similar to Buchan's version. As I see Buchan also does, it replaces the Roxburghe stanza 17 with two stanzas that look like an intermediate stage towards stanzas 15 and 16 in the Deming Version:

A grave and a spade standing by she did see,
And said, Must this be a bride bed for me?
O perjured creature, the worst of all men!
Heav'n will reward you when I'm dead and gone.

O pity my infant and spare my sweet life,
Let me go distress'd, if I'm not your wife;
O take not my life, lest my soul you betray,
Must I in my youth be thus hurried away.

However it doesn't omit stanza 8 of the Roxburghe version as Buchan does – hence the 35 stanzas.

The NLS site also gives facsimiles of three chapbooks printed by J. Morren, Cowgate, Edinburgh – no date printed but they estimate 1800 (text more or less in the Robertson chapbook, two with stanza 8, one without), and one by M. Randall, Stirling (with stanza 8).

Since the Glasgow chapbook is dated 1801, that seems to push the line about the "spade standing by" back a few decades and to the British Isles.

I'll add this version to my chart. Sorry, Richie, I'll have to keep you waiting a bit longer for the .jpg version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 08:43 AM

I haven't read David Fowler's original article, but to go by Paul Slade's summary combined with his fresh information from the archives, the basic idea seems plausible enough. On the other hand I think Paul Slade also has a point in casting doubt on Fowler's identification of the likely murderer as John Billson. His first argument, that the records show that Billson must have been at least in his 40s and the actions in the ballad seem like those of a much younger man, perhaps involves too many presuppositions about someone we know practically nothing about, but I find the second, that the ballad actually says the murderer was "carpenter's mate", more persuasive. Calling any carpenter working on a ship a "ship carpenter" makes sense, but why bother to identify his position more precisely as "carpenter's mate" if he was actually the master carpenter? (Unless, of course, the writer was deliberately making the murderer younger for the sake of the story.)

The main weakness seems to me to be the failure of either David Fowler or Paul Slade to find record of a burial in Gosport that looks like that of the victim, but I'm sure there are plenty of possible explanations for that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 04:46 AM

Hi Richie,
I've had a good read of Paul Slade's website now and seen the results of both his and David Fowler's thorough researches. Whilst there is a lot of speculation there are also a few good clinchers like the existence of the ship and Stewart's name and the death of Bilston. I think their theories very plausible. I have a lot of respect for David Fowler's work. He does his own research and unlike other so-called scholars doesn't blindly reproduce others' statements. The only regret I have about Fowler is he restricted his researches upto 1800 and didn't go beyond.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 11:12 PM

Hi,

Steve, thanks for that list of broadsides. I'd be curious to see the one titled: Nancy's Ghost

The Boston Broadside is dated 1776-1805 if you read their response. The Roxburghe is date 1720 by the British Library and 1750 by Ebsworth at Roxburghe.

The date Fowler gives is for the murder is 1726 when Charles Steward is aboard the HMS Bedford (Feb. 11, 1726) docked at Plymouth. Fowler says "The ship's carpenter when Stewart signed up is listed as John Billson, who joined the Bedford in that post on May 1, 1723, and remained there till his death on-board in September 1726."

So the murder would have taken place between Feb. and Sept. of 1726 if you agree with Fowler.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 04:42 PM

Hi, Richie
I'm coming more round to the idea that the story is based as Fowler says. The oldest looking broadside is your Boston one and c1730 seems like a reasonable date now. I very much doubt if the BCY imprints are any earlier than 1740. The style of printing on their sheets always makes me think 1750-1800.

A good hack of around 1730 could easily have heard the story of the murdered girl at Gosport and decided to marry this with the well-known Jonah tales. The writer of Bramble Briar at about the same time did a similar thing with the Isabella story and gave it a local setting in Bridgwater.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 03:57 PM

By the way Elizabeth (Dicey) Cluer was William Dicey's sister so William may have had a hand in the business after John's death c. 1727.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 03:46 PM

Here's what is says in Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Volume 2:

[John Cluer, who afterwards became a noted music-publisher, first began in Bow Churchyard, Cheapside, with the printing of ballads, about 1700-10. He was directly followed in this line by William Dicey, about 1730; the imprint then merely gave, "Printed and sold in Bow Church Yard."]

Cluer died in 1727 and his wife managed until Dicey came in c. 1730. The question is what is Cluer's imprint? Also would Dicey's imprint suggest "Gosport Tragedy" to be c. 1730?

TY Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 02:39 PM

Hi Richie,
An approximate date even for these pieces is very difficult with such sparse info. The Dicey Marshall dynasty lasted a long time and I don't yet have a lot of info on their trading details. All I can say for certain at the moment is the Bow Church Yard address precedes the Aldermary Church Yard.

Here are some dates I have found
Wm Dicey at BCY 1740-56
Cluer Dicey at BCY 1756-63
Dicey & Co at ACY 1754-64
Cluer Dicey and Richard Marshall at ACY 1764-70.

All this really tells us is that one or other was at Bow to 1763
and from 1754 Cluer was established at Aldermary.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 02:29 PM

Sorry about the spelling in last post--- Dicey's imprint: "Printed and sold at Bow church Yard" Roxburghe (Ebsworth) dates it c. 1750.

The reason is if it's printed circa 1720 (as per British Library) then the events of 1726 (Fowler's article) would not have happened yet,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 02:10 PM

Hi,

Steve, can you give me an approximate date for the Roxbourghe broadside printed at Bow Church-Yard? Apparently it was either printed by John Cluer, or after he died around 1727 his wife Elizabeth or William Dicey (his imprint c.1730 was: Printed and Sold at Box Church Yard). The date would range between 1720 and 1750 (Epworth.



TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:53 AM

The most common scenario with popular early to mid 18thc printed ballads is the longer original continued to be printed till about 1800 and the new shortened versions started to creep in with the popularity of slip versions about 1780. Then the 2/3/4 ballads to a sheet became popular in Catnach's time around 1820. This is very much a generalisation and there are exceptions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:46 AM

Sorry I missed a couple of useful refs.

Baring Gould in Songs of the West refers to a version in The Rambler's Garland (probably Gosport Tragedy)

And I have a BL copy of 'The Gosford Tragedy or the Perjured Carpenter' with no imprint but dated 1775. It has 17 and a half double sts. There are 2 printings of this in the BL.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:43 AM

Here's a quick analysis of the many versions on British broadsides. You might find different ones in the Roud Broadside Index.

The Gosport Tragedy or The Perjured Ship-Carpenter: (34 sts unless otherwise stated.)
Bow Church Yard (Diceys)
Aldermary Church Yard
Johnson, Falkirk
Pitts, London
Besley, Exeter
Various Forget-me-not-Songsters
Robertson, Glasgow (35)
Harward, Tewkesbury (33)

All the rest have 11 sts unless otherwise stated

Polly's Love or The Cruel Ship Carpenter:
Pitts/Catnach/Ryle/Fortey/Hodges, London
Harkness, Preston
W. Ford, Sheffield

Polly's Love:
Hook Brighton

The Cruel Ship's Carpenter:
Just about everybody following on from Pitts/Catnach all over the country.

Ship Carpenter:
Russell, Birmingham
Wm Walker, Newcastle
Wilson, Cambridge

Love and Murder:
Armstrong, Liverpool
Williams, Plymouth
Marshall, Newcastle
Pollock, North Shields
Bloomer, Birmingham

Nancy's Ghost: (10 sts)
Angus, Newcastle

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:18 AM

Many thanks for the comparison, Jim.
Will look at it carefully when I have a bit of free time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:17 AM

Or more likely there was an interim British broadside which hasn't survived.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 01:57 AM

No, I was wrong about the Dunn version. It didn't occur to me that "Two brace of kisses I had late last night / To rise up in the morning before it was light" could ultimately come from "So with kind embraces he parted that night, / She went to meet him in the morning light" in the Roxburghe text (very similar in Deming too), but now you point out how "embraces" could become "'braces", I'm sure it does.

So George Dunn's version could suggest that some of the old Gosport ballad had survived in tradition in England and got reattached to "Polly's Love", but perhaps its more likely that it had been influenced by an American version somewhere along the line of transmission.

I'll get back to you with the chart in .jpg and a transcription of the Findlater version - it might take a day or two.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:03 PM

TY Jim

The chart is great, I've put it on my site here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/comparative-broadside-chart.aspx but I'm having trouble lining things up. Jim, if you can send in Jpeg one for each page I think it would work better.

You were right about the Dunn version. I'd seen the lines before but they are in US versions:

Through 'braces and kisses they parted that night,
She started next morning for to meet him by light;
[from Cruel Ship's Carpenter --Sung by Captain Pearl R. Nye, (1872-1950) on November 3, 1937. Recorded Lomax]

Now I need to compare the the traditional version to your chart :)

Please transcribe Findlater's version. I only have one edition of Greig/Duncan and it's not in it.

It's safe to say the both of the early broadsides Roxburghe/Deming were not traditional in Britain or else they would have been collected. There are 7 Canadian version of "Gosport" and four or so from the US, including the Nye version which corresponds to Dunn's fragment.

There's a Pretty Polly version Flander's collected from Sulivan in VT and the recording is online here: https://archive.org/details/hhfbc-cyl40 but it's so bad I can't make it out- anyone? It may be a different song.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 01:52 PM

Hi Richie,
I've incorporated "Polly's Love" in the comparative table, as you suggested, and e-mailed it to you and to Steve.

As you say, most of the British versions seem to come from the Polly's Love broadside. William Christie doesn't say whether what the singer sang was the same as Buchan's version, but he does make it clear that it was an unusually long song, which makes it sound more like the old "Gosport Tragedy" than the 11-stanza "Polly's Love". Also in the North-east of Scotland, I see that "The Gosport Tragedy" is listed in the contents of volume 2 of the Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, but I don't have access to the book to see what version of the song and how much of it is there. (Ethel Findlater's version seems to be close to the Deming text, and I guess it could have come from an American source -- I'll try to transcribe it when I have time.)

I don't really see why George Dunn's version would support an earlier version. As far as I can see it all comes from "Polly's Love", apart from the first two lines about "two brace of kisses", which don't obviously belong with the rest, and could easily have been added anytime in the 150-odd years between the printing of the broadside and the time the recording was made.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 06:41 AM

Hi,

Jim Brown, I haven't received an email from you. Can you also compare the broadside, "Polly's Love"? I know there are only a few stanzas that correspond.

Nearly all the British traditional versions are based wholly on the c. 1825 broadside "Polly's Love" which mean the "Gosport Tragedy" version was only collected by Christie- who provides no text only reprints Buchan).

This is the only fragment that supports an earlier version. It's taken from Musical Traditions liner notes and shows that it became mixed with "Polly's Love":

The Cruel Ship's Carpenter - fragment sung by George Dunn of Quarry Bank, Staffordshire. (Recorded 3 Dec 1971, by Roy Palmer)

Two brace of kisses I had late last night
To rise up in the morning before it was light
... ... ... ...
... ... ... ...

(missing verses)

"Oh pardon, oh pardon, oh pardon", said she
... ... ... ...
"I'll travel the wide world to set myself free
If you will but pardon my baby and me."

"There's no time for pardon, there's no time to weep
For all the night long I've been digging your grave
Your grave it lies open and the spade is standing by"
Which caused this young damsel to weep and to cry.

Then out of his pocket he pulled out a knife
He plunged it into her heart
And the crimson blood did flow
And into the grave the dead body did go.

(missing verses)

Then up spake the first man, "I'm sure it's not me"
Then up spoke the second man, "I'm sure it's not me"
Then up steps bold William to stamp and to swear
"I'm sure it's not me, sir, I vow and declare."

Between this date, when he first sang it to me, and June 1971 George gradually retrieved more lines from his memory, without recovering the full text. Though he remembered that the final scene took place at sea he did not recall the avenging, ghostly appearance of the wronged woman,

As he did turn from the captain with speed
He met his Polly, which made his heart bleed
She stript him and tore him, she tore him in three
Because that he murdered her baby and she.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 04:00 PM

Hi,

Here's my quick transcription of the first recorded version by East Kentucky banjo player John Hammond for Gennett, April 8, 1925. He rerecorded it September 17, 1927. When Hammond identifies the location "Maryland town" the first stanza is reminiscent of "Polly's Love", the broadside. The second stanza is unique, a far as I know.

Purty Polly- sung by John Hammond, of Eastern Kentucky, 1925

Banjo intro

1. So [I] went a little bit longer, the city Maryland town,
So [I] went a little bit longer, the city Maryland town,
I met with a lady, her beauty is never found.

2. They call her Purty Polly, her name I knew so well
They call her Purty Polly her name I knew so well
I loved of her body and sent her soul to hell.

3. So where is Purty Polly? Oh yonder she stands, [bis. as before]
With the rings on her fingers, and lily-white hands.

4 Come and go my Purty Polly come go along with me,
Before we get married and pleasure to see.

5. He led her over hills and o'er valleys so deep,
Finally she mistrusted and then began to weep.

6 "Pretty Polly, Pretty Polly, what makes you so sad,
With nothing concerning for you to be so mad?"

7 "Oh Willie, oh Willie I'm 'fraid of your ways,
The way you've been rambling to lead me astray."

8 "Pretty Polly, pretty Polly, your guessing just right,
I dug on your grave six long hours of last night."

9 She threw her arms around him and cried into tears,
"How can you kill a poor girl that loves you so dear?"

10. There's no time for talking, there's no time to stand,
He drew out a weapon, all in his right hand.

11. He stobbed her through the heart and that blood it did flow,
And down in the grave Purty Polly sure did go.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 12:30 PM

I ought to add the folk club we all went to in the 60s in Hull had a full set of the Journals.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 12:28 PM

Richie,
When did Mike record 'Young Willie'? A close mate of ours, Jim Eldon, was singing this version in the 60s in Hull. I'm pretty certain it's the McCluskey version. I always loved this version. They probably got it from the 1956 Folk Music Journal of the EFDSS as transcribed by Peter Kennedy and Michael Bell. I'll check out Jim's recording and see who got it from who.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 04:53 AM

> and is the possible source of the Mike Waterson version

So it says at any rate in the sleeve notes quoted at https://mainlynorfolk.info/peter.bellamy/songs/thecruelshipscarpenter.html.

I guess "Fair ones are shining on foreign earth and town" is a rather splendid mondegreen for the usual "In fair Worcester city and in Worcestershire" (maybe via something like "In fair Worcestershire, in fair Worcester town"?), and once the first line had come to end in "town", "Miss Brown" was introduced to make the next line rhyme. I notice the "town... Miss Brown" rhyme is also in Mrs Kenny's Nova Scotia text that you posted earlier.

I wonder, have the "early one morning" bits in stanzas 2 and 6 been borrowed from "All Jolly Fellows that Follow the Plough"? (I don't mean just by Paddy McCluskey -- they're in the broadside text too.) Or are they just a commonplace? I can't think of other examples.