BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!

Subject: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 09:16 AM

...or is it the other way round? :-S

Anyway - I found this very interesting

Science and Buddhism Agree: There is No 'You' There.

Hope you agree too :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 09:53 AM

Well gosh.... they both agree with Heraclitus.

""πάντα χωρεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει" καὶ "δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης"
Panta chōrei kai ouden menei kai dis es ton auton potamon ouk an embaies
"Everything changes and nothing remains still ... and ... you cannot step twice into the same stream"

He emphasized that the stream changed... but this seems to say that "you" change at the same time as the stream.

It's all very inspiring, but not very pragmatically convincing, as Dr. Samuel Johnson would tell you as he stamped on the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 10:00 AM

That really is fascinating Dave. I'm not sure I fully understand it though. Does it imply that we have no inherent personality, but can become a different character if we work on our thought processes? I have several old photos of me at the age of, say, six, thirteen and in my early twenties. When I look at them, I can remember exactly the person I was then, and I honestly don't think I'm any different at all now in my dotage! I truly reckon I was born like this! The only differences are those from life experiences ( bereavement, ill health, a happy marriage etc) which have certainly expanded my knowledge of life, but not altered my basic nature.
However I do agree that with a bit of effort and being strict with oneself, one can be for example less timid/shy, more trusting, less prejudiced, less forceful and so on. I suppose this is called 'self-control', but to me doesn't mean inherent change, just modification.
Great article - thanks for posting it!

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 12:01 PM

Depends on what you mean by "same," doesn't it, Bill?

If I dip my toe into the Hudson and then do it again thirty seconds later, it's still the Hudson right? (Or is it a different river with the same name? Does its flow, etc., really make it "different"? Says who?)

In spite of the pragmatists, Heraclitus was undoubtedly correct.

A recent documentary TV series called "Hack My Brain" starred a fairly average young guy whose memory, creativity, reaction time, and even his ability to hold his breath under water, was dramatically - in some cases amazingly - improved through ninety days of "brain training" by experts.

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 12:09 PM

Yep Lighter... you've hit the heart of the matter. "Same" can mean different things in different contexts, and a lot of philosophy--- or what passes for philosophy among the huddled masses... is muddied by people talking past one another and barely noticing that they aren't using words the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: leeneia
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 12:29 PM

from the linked article:

"The belief that we are the same one moment to the next, or one year to the next, is a delusion."

I consider this a foolish generalization. A healthy person living a normal life does undergo gradual change as the result of education and experience. And an unlucky person who has a stroke or other extreme event will undergo dramatic change.

But as a rule we remain the same most of our lives. A cranky kid grows up to be a grouchy oldster. A happy urchin grows up to be an optimist. We are unique, and we remain ourselves.

Here's some raw data. Years ago, a famous advice columnist asked women readers to list the kind of man one should never marry. She got thousands of responses, most based on unhappy experience, and they said the same things. Three men who will never change are:

1. the jealous man
2. the problem drinker
3. the mama's boy.

Years ago I briefly had a boyfriend who wanted me to be more cool, withdrawn and sophisticated. It's never gonna happen. I cry at dog-rescue videos.

And nothing will ever get me to enjoy modern jazz. Except for Dave Brubeck's 'Bluette.'

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: olddude
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 12:42 PM

My brain left me years ago dave. It said, I tired of you and left without saying goodbye. Now all I have is my penis

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 01:53 PM

leeneia, what a cheek that boyfriend had! Asking you to change to suit him. I agree about the three categories of men who won't be able to change. You either have to accept them as they are or avoid like the plague (the latter in my opinion!)

Being of the old school, I do think one can take charge of oneself and try to overcome minor character defects, such as being bad at social occasions. Manners require that you jolly well have to converse and interact a bit, and you have to force yourself. Also, controlling one's temper can be achieved with say counting to ten etc (those anger management tips) I'm like you leeneia, I get very upset and sad at documentaries about unfortunate people or animals. And beggars in the street have me reaching for my purse immediately. I don't think I'd want to reduce my compassion though.

I'd be extremely wary of any 'experts' who wanted to train my brain. It would be the same organ, just various connections would be altered or added. I can't seem to understand this theory about change and nothing being constant. Each human being is, as you say, unique, and one's basic character is there for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 03:10 PM

I think that some may be missing a major point of the article which, to me at any rate, was that there now seems to be a scientific base for what Buddhists and others have classed as some sort of spirituality for many years. I have always thought that anyway and I am fascinated considering what we may discover in the coming years. It is that quantum thing that I can never quite get my head round about things changing just by being observed. I may never fully understand it but I will mentally reconcile it. One day :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 09:11 PM

Interesting.
Experience with brain injured folks, a few years back, awoke me to the fragility of what is know as a person, without Science or Buddhism.
Regardless, I never really considered Buddhism a religion, as noted in the article, but closer to a life-path philosophy (as some could see as closer to a quasi-science).

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 09:53 PM

Scotar Testacles said, only learning can change your mind and in turn, interactively will change your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 10:26 AM

Is anyone aware of the book written by a woman who had a stroke that left only the right hemisphere of her brain functional for nearly a year?

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 01:54 PM

> "things changing just by being observed."

Contrary to popular belief, this doesn't really happen - except conceivably at the quantum level, which famously bears little resemblance to large-scale reality.

Anyone who thinks it *does* happen in everyday reality needs to explain how.

Observing something may alter one's understanding, interpretation, feelings, etc., about it, but how can it possibly "change" the thing itself?

(Unless one believes that things exist only in one's mind. In that case, falsely believing you've observed, in space, something that exists only in your mind, would change its nature in your mind, the only place where it presumably exists. But most of us don't worry about this.)

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 02:25 PM

Don't be so quick to dismiss things that you do not understand is all I will ask.

Double slit experiment

I can't say as I understand it but I am no scientist. It happens it is provable and repeatable.

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 02:32 PM

"What you're thinking is what you're becoming." 
― Muhammad Ali

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Janie
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 09:19 PM

Random musings on the topic expressed through assorted links and articles.

What it takes to change your brain's patterns after age 25.

The Four Noble Truths

Regarding the article linked in the OP, would be good if she gave a clear definition of what she means by "self."

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/07/28/426753409/a-sense-of-self-what-happens-when-your-brain-says-you-dont-exist

Within the neurosciences, and the assorted related diciplines around individual and social psychology, and research regarding the change process, the assumption has been, for several decades, that people can and do change throughout their lives. That may or may not have anything to do with sense of self.

A sense of self is important to survive and operate in the physical world. Sense of self is somewhat different from identification with the ego, and is also separate from personality.

I think the author in the linked article in the op is confusing sense of self with changes in the way one thinks and perceives. Or perhaps confusing the construct of ego with sense of self.

What the neurosciences have mostly studied and confirmed, with respect to Buddhism, especially Zen Buddhism (which is strictly speaking, a philosophy, not a religion) 1. the effectiveness of a practice of mindfulness, usually involving a practice of meditation, but not requiring a practice of any particular school of meditation, to change patterns of thinking, perception, and therefore, the brain. Whether or not one embraces Buddhism as an overall philosophy. 2. Increasing documentation of what happens structurally in the brain when one repeatedly focuses on activities, including but not limited to meditation, that forge, reinforce or prune neural pathways.

Most therapists worth their salt will incorporate the encouragement of some form or degree of mindfulness practice in their work with clients these days, and for the past few decades, at least.

The meditative practices of some schools of Buddhist philosophy can certainly enhance the process of brain change for those who seek it.

That is a bit different from the author's assertion that neuroscience confirms Buddhist philosophy.

Personally and professionally I find much that is useful for change and for acceptance within Buddhist philosophy 101. But neither my experience nor research done thus far in the neurosciences verifies the Buddhist notion that we are all part of what can simplistically be understood to be at the heart of Buddhist philosophy - that there is some kind of over-arching cosmic consciousness.

I ain't sayin' there isn't. I'm just sayin' the neurosciences are not currently researching philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Janie
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 09:24 PM

Sorry for the last bad link. Trying it again.

What happens when your brain says you don't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Janie
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 09:35 PM

Before science there was philosophy, and that still is the case. There are also philosophies of science.

I'm not trained in philosophy nor am I a scientist. Seems to me, and I would love it if Bill D. sees this and comments, that one function of philosophy is to raise first questions and speculate, using logic, about possible answers. The function of science is to seek empirical answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain!
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 12:39 PM

"Is there any knowledge in the world which is so certain that no reasonable man could doubt it? This question, which at first sight might not seem difficult, is really one of the most difficult that can be asked. When we have realized the obstacles in the way of a straightforward and confident answer, we shall be well launched on the study of philosophy—for philosophy is merely the attempt to answer such ultimate questions, not carelessly and dogmatically, as we do in ordinary life and even in the sciences, but critically, after exploring all that makes such questions puzzling, and after realizing all the vagueness and confusion that underlie our ordinary ideas."

— Bertrand Russell, The Problems of Philosophy