Accents

Subject: RE: Accents
From: matt milton
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:41 AM

"But ... they'd sound ridiculous, if I presented them just using my southern English accent, with no recognition of the original accent and dialect."

Don't be so sure. I sing plenty of Scots and Irish songs and I sing them in my own (London) accent. As yet, I've never got the impression anyone finds them ridiculous.

Depends, I suppose, how embedded the dialect words are: if there are dialect words in every single line and none of them have an easy parallel in English English, well, it's probably not worth singing that song.

""What have you been doing (or where have you been) since the last time we met" does not have the same impact as "Where hast tha bin since I saw thee?"

Depends on the delivery. You don't have to say "bin" in whatever accent that is referring to: the difference between "been" and "bin" is very slight! And I personally would rather sing "thou" than "tha" if I was going to sing it as archaic language. So there are plenty of options.

You can do all sorts of pronunciation cheats too. There's a line in a song I sing: "Better if I'd never seen ye" and I sing it as "you" but slightly colour the pronunciation to imply an "ee" in order to maintain a rhyming line-ending. It works because there's a little of that "ye" in my South London accented "you" anyway.

Don't forget that it's not impossible that the Scots/Irish/Whatever song you are worrying about might itself have been transposed from another dialect anyway...

Subject: RE: Accents
From: Marje
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM

Oh yes, I can remember an excruciating rendition of "Wor Geordie's lost 'is penker" by an RP speaker. Bad idea.

Some Americanisation of accent is normal enough in the UK, as it's so prevalent in pop music, and we're very familiar with US accents in films etc. Whether this should be attempted for an American audience is another matter, but most UK listeners will scarcely notice it in an appropriate song. What does get ridiculous is if a UK singer is unable to sing anything without affecting an American accent, as often happens in pop music now.

It's a matter of what you're comfortable with. If you're aware of "putting on" an accent, it's got to be really good if it's not going to sound silly. If an accent comes easily and naturally, there are probably cultural reasons for this, and it may sound OK.

Marje

Subject: RE: Accents
From: GUEST,Geordie Lad
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:08 AM

Please don't sing Geordie songs unless you're a Geordie! I heard someone recently sing a song about "Gordie"!!

Subject: RE: Accents
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:05 AM

Love it lead fingers !

Subject: RE: Accents
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 04:25 AM

In a Supermarket in Virginia the teenage lad on the check out said "I LOVE your English accent!" to which I replied " Pardon me , but YOU have the Accent , WE have the Language!"

Subject: RE: Accents
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 04:20 AM

I think it's horses for courses - all within one's own range and capabilities.

I sing a lot of American songs in my repertoire - mainly stuff from the 20s and 30s, but also songs from the likes of Jimmie Rodgers, Leon Redbone and Doc Watson. Why do I sing them, rather than songs from my own background? For no other reason than that I like them. I like the melodies and the words, and I like the chords and harmonies. I like the way that they can be adapted for some nice guitar improvisation. I don't feel the same way about other material - English, Scottish, Irish - and don't perform it. (The one exception to my rule is music hall material, which does speak to me, and I can use my own voice there).

So what do I do? Well, what I don't do is try and put on a broad "American" accent - from what part of America would it be, in any case? It just sounds phoney On the other hand, some sort of accentuation is necessary because the language, the dialect, argot - whatever you call it - demands it. The example from Nigel above with Scots song illustrates the point. The closest I get to an American accent is a very mild version of Doc Watson's accent when singing - and then just enough (I hope) to do the song justice.

What's the alternative? Not to sing those songs because I shouldn't? Nuts to that idea. I like 'em and will sing 'em - and the audience can and will make up its mind whether it work or not.

Interestingly, I also sing French songs from time to time. And when I do, I sing with them with as good a French accentuation and pronunciation as I can, having spoken French since I was about 11. No-one's complained yet (well, not to my face, anyway!). Why shouldn't I treat American English in the same way, on the assumption that, in many ways, they are two different languages? Food for thought.

Subject: RE: Accents
From: Marje
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 04:02 AM

There is a difference, as Jim says, between accent and dialect. Dialect is more problematical, as it entails using different vocabulary, verb form, etc, and the rhymes and scansion may depend on it. And dialect won't work without the right accent, it will sound ludicrous.

Many Scots songs, though, are in something close to standard English, and don't require much tweaking to be singable in an English, Irish or American accent if that's what comes naturally to you. Sometimes they are written down in a phoneticised approximation of a Scots accent, which makes them look more Scottish than they sound. There are other songs that exist in a Scots and a standard English version (e.g. Braw sailin' on the sea/ Fine sailing on the sea); there's nothing to stop you making an adaptation like this if the end product sounds consistent and stands alone.

So choose your songs carefully and think how they would sound in youur natural accent. The occasional dialect word may be necessary, and can be left if required, but if the rest of the song can be sung in English, then that's going to sound far better than phony Scots.

Look at it in reverse: if Scots or American singer decides to sing "Down by the Banks of the Sweet Primroses", you'd think it odd if they either attempted a southern English accent, or changed "fair maid" to "bonny lass".

Marje

Subject: RE: Accents
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 02:02 AM

In most cases, using accents that are not your own is totally unnecessary and often detrimental to your being involved in the song - how do you relate to your voice if it is not your own?
If you if you sing say Scots or Irish songs to audiences from those places they can and usually do sound risible and you can become a figure of fun.
If you want to study an accent to acquire it, fine, but it hardly seems worth the trouble.
Most of these songs translate perfectly into your own chosen mode of expression (singers more often than not sing folk songs in a neutral version of their own accent - not broad Liverpool or Birmingham or Cockney, in which the songs would sound just as ridiculous.
The problems arise not so much with accents but with with dialect words, then you have to choose whether to use them anyway or to change them altogether.
If the song is based on dialect you have a choice - to sing or not sing.
Personally I choose not to, as much as I might like to.
I love Scots songs, particularly the ballads, and have managed to include about forty of them in my repertoire by slightly adapting them - I'd like to have learned more but I didn't because when I tried I couldn't get them to work for me because they sounded phony
I have never understood a Scots singer with a beautiful Scots accent singing a Scots ballad in a phony, mid-Atlantic American accent - talk about throwing away a natural gift.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Accents
From: Andy7
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 08:56 PM

"Feel free to agree with me, or to tear my comments to pieces!"

Nigel, I think you've made some excellent points, thank you!

Subject: RE: Accents
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 08:24 PM

It's folk music. Sing it however you like. Most people have only a vague idea of what an accent really sounds like anyway.

However, you might think twice before using a Scots accent in roomful of Scots. Or an American accent in a roomful of Yanks.

People quickly recognize distortions of their *own* accents.

Subject: RE: Accents
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 08:14 PM

In my personal opinion (I accept that others may not agree) Some songs require the singer to attempt a version of the original accent/dialect.
"What have you been doing (or where have you been) since the last time we met" does not have the same impact as "Where hast tha bin since I saw thee?"

If you can replicate the sound of the original then 'go for it'.
If you can't replicate the sound, then maybe the song isn't for you.

Of course, there will be people who can't replicate the original sound, but can make the song sound authentic with their own accent. This is known as (part of) the folk process.

I'm happy to sing songs (almost any songs) in my own voice, but some songs will get me imitating (not quite the correct word) the person from whom I first heard the song. So 'McGinty's goat' will always seem to be a take off of Val Doonican. This is because it just doesn't sound quite right if I allow a Welsh accent (and I don't have much of one) to creep through.

Feel free to agree with me, or to tear my comments to pieces!

Subject: RE: Accents
From: RTim
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:44 PM

I don't have an accent - but you do.............

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Accents
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:33 PM

I was told...I learned my speech from a Crockney. It was said he was the only one that understood me.

I went to American school and speech therapy.
I went to British school to remove the previous American.
I returned to America, with two years of "theraphy" to remove the Brit....and "r", and "t" and "s" and "a" and " th".

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

<> Life is good....I can get by in six languages....all with an "acknowledged speech impediment."

Subject: RE: Accents
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:07 PM

Accents ARE a problem - I know some excellent songs which I do NOT sing because they don't work , unless their are 'English' words which fit !

Subject: Accents
From: Andy7
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 06:16 PM

I love singing Scottish folk songs.

But ... they'd sound ridiculous, if I presented them just using my southern English accent, with no recognition of the original accent and dialect.

And yet, they'd sound equally ridiculous, if I tried to imitate a native of Scotland singing the songs, which I'd do very badly!

So, what's the protocol, when singing a song from a country, or a region, other than your own?

How much should you try to match the original, and how much should you try to make it into your own version of the song, with whatever accent you happen to have?