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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: The Sandman Date: 14 Sep 16 - 01:21 PM Yes, I am suspect that is their motive, Shrewsbury is in my opinion an example of an aspect of a changing folk scene, I suspect but cannot prove that their primary purpose is commercialism,Shrewsbury is in my opinion primarily about bums on seats and possibly/PROBABLY about making loads of money. Obviously any festival organiser has to cover costs, but if the principal aim is to make lots of money, it means[ in my experience] for "loads of money to be made" a dilution away from the roots of the music, that is not something I think is a good thing. Have the organisers of this Festival contributed any of their profits to Anti Racism funds, if they have and can prove they have, I take back my comments, if not I wish they would desist |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: the lemonade lady Date: 14 Sep 16 - 06:34 AM Here's a Recap |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: the lemonade lady Date: 14 Sep 16 - 06:27 AM At the end of the day, when it's all summed up, it's been great publicity |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: The Sandman Date: 13 Sep 16 - 12:03 PM refresh |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 08 Sep 16 - 09:25 AM Well a certain young mixed race person of my acquaintance seems to delight in listening to Holst's Planet Suite... |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 Sep 16 - 07:49 AM It's so sad that even well educated elder pillars [..pillocks..???] of society see life in such closed minded black and white.. ..when according to a popularly acclaimed 21st Century writer, there are 50 shades of grey......???? 😜 .. honestly everybody, we're not blacking up... it's just a very dark shade of grey... |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 08 Sep 16 - 07:24 AM Some guys here remind me of a experience i had online round the turn of the century...Soul-patrol, a group of aging souls soulsingers who complained how awful Rap was. I only blundered in a few months before I decided to enlighten them on how Rap gave young people solace today the same as Soul did for you once. They ran me off. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Will Fly Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:17 AM Oh well, there you go. It's always instructive to see a person with such a fully-formed and completely closed mind. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 08 Sep 16 - 05:52 AM My ears tell me what I like to hear. I don't care where music originated, purely from an electric guitar viewpoint, to my ears, apart from Clapton during his stints with the Bluesbreakers and early Cream, nobody has ever got near to Peter Green's blues technique during his Bluesbreakers/early Fleetwood Mac period. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Guest Date: 08 Sep 16 - 05:28 AM Anyone wanting to check the research on blackface morris should read Teresa Buckland's article "Black faces, garlands, and coconuts" (Dance Research Journal, Vol. 22, No. 2, Autumn, 1990) or the section on morris dance in Roy Palmer's "The folklore of Shropshire". There can be little doubt that the Lancashire coconut dancing and the border morris traditions were influenced by blackface minstrelsy. Alternative explanations (disguise, warding off evil spirits, miners) tend to be assertions made in more modern times, of the "it may be the case that" variety, with no evidence from contemporary accounts of dancers to back them up. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,In good company Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:32 AM come to "diverse, multicultural" Croydon and you will hear exactly what I mean!!! I used to live in genuinely "diverse multi-cultural" (with or without the quotes) Salford. I now live near and work in even more diverse multi-cultural Bradford. I have enjoyed myself immensely on occasions in Moss Side, Brixton and many other places at sessions in pubs that have been culturally diverse since the 1960s. I have still never found myself referring to music I am not keen on as "The hideous music inflicted on us by black people" Hideous music is perpetrated by all sorts of people everywhere and not all music played and enjoyed by black people is hideous. While blacking up may not be racist, stereotyping black people as having poor musical tastes certainly is. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST Date: 08 Sep 16 - 03:38 AM The reason Bozo's posts remain is that they strike a chord with redneck shit kickers, some of whom moderate this thread from a distant "land." |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Will Fly Date: 08 Sep 16 - 03:37 AM I note with some amusement, Bonzo, that your favourite blues guitarists seem to be white boys from London who played the music at second-hand. So much for all those black guys who originally produced the music, eh? Much as I loved Peter Green's playing (in his heyday) how could he have made the music without people like - for example - Muddy Waters, Buddy Guy, and even Chuck Berry. The Brit blues guitarists may have rejuvenated the music in its homeland in the 1960s - as Buddy Guy himself has said on many occasions - but the fount of that music is firmly within the southern states of black America. And all of this without mentioning giants like Broonzy, Johnson, Patton, Jefferson, Lewis, Davis, McGhee, Blake, etc., etc., etc. Do get a grip. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:42 AM I don't see why you can't cruise round your hood in a pimped up boy racer [or evens a sensible pensioners economy vehicle] with massive sub bass ICE sound system in the boot blasting out your favourite folk tracks at top volume...??? You've got enough savings aintcha.... I'd opt for massed marching bag pipes & battle drums... 🙄 |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:16 AM No no no no no no no, come to "diverse, multicultural" Croydon and you will hear exactly what I mean!!! |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 07 Sep 16 - 11:17 PM Bonzo, I'm sure they grimace at your music too. Maybe get some earplugs - that'll show'em ( ^ : |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,In good company Date: 07 Sep 16 - 08:18 AM I am referring to hipperty hopperty, reggae gone wrong and worse only. Is this type of music only performed and enjoyed by black people? Do you refer to all the music you dislike as "The hideous music inflicted on us by black people"? I would also like that to stay for posterity and to show anyone who is of the opinion that racism is not an issue in the folk world. :-( D. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 07 Sep 16 - 08:07 AM We had no Colored folk in our town either, the law was they could work there but had to leave before dark, so, my mom was watching a woman's girl while she was at work (I think). I was in my mother's arms the first time I saw her. I reached out my hand to touch her face, she bit me. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 07 Sep 16 - 08:05 AM I used to have a baldy middle aged next door neighbour called Tone... Me and my mates thought he was just a boring old bloke, until we were in awe to discover he'd been to Eddie Cochran's last ever gig... Eff all to do with morris.... .. unless we want to tie in concepts of white folks adopting, modifying and making success out of black folks culture....????? 🙄 but not exactly as contentious these days as blacking up...??? |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 07 Sep 16 - 07:40 AM I am referring to hipperty hopperty, reggae gone wrong and worse only. I thank Peter Green for da blues - search John Mayall with Peter Green on youtube for the best unmatched blues guitar ever.......ah, I'm forgetting David Sanctious of course!!! |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Uncle Tone Date: 07 Sep 16 - 07:29 AM From: GUEST,Senoufou - PM Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:45 AM Quote: I don't much like your tone to be honest. What have I said now? Oh. hang on. I'm not Punkfolkrocker's tone |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Les in Chorlton Date: 07 Sep 16 - 07:17 AM " The hideous music inflicted on us by black people is infinitely more offensive than any morris dancer with a blacked up face could ever be!!!!!!!!! " Oh dear, oh dear ....... is the cat out of the bag so to speak? Is that all music of black origin or just jazz, blues, rhythm and blues, rock, soul and hip hop or would you like to be more specific Bonzo? We can't choose what kind of music we like - it just hits us and we either like it or we don't. If somebody is inflicting music on you perhaps you should try and escape you captors. Inflicting music has been used as a method of torture - I trust you escape. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 07 Sep 16 - 06:17 AM see.. if I was a mod, i'd let that last outburst of bonzo's remain intact for posterity; damning evidence of the kind of mindset that apparently over-zealous organisations like FRESh exist to condemn and counteract... .. thanks for that bonz... |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 07 Sep 16 - 06:04 AM The hideous music inflicted on us by black people is infinitely more offensive than any morris dancer with a blacked up face could ever be!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 07 Sep 16 - 04:55 AM Senoufou - shame you are getting the wrong end of the stick... I thought you would have gathered by now, my default mode is affectionate sarcasm... life is too painful otherwise.. Can't ever miss an opportunity for a mild piss taking laugh... friends or enemies, dished out in equal measure... [though I don't really do hate and enemies, never been that good at sustaining the ill feeling towards even the most despicable pillocks.. I even regard bonzo as a weird kind of disreputable mate... 😜] But beneath it all, there is always a serious subtext, with a remote hope that it might provoke more tangential contextual consideration on a subject, for any who might be bothered thinking further As it is, me and the mrs quite like what we see of the local [South West] Morris squad once or twice a year.. Even though it's obvious we know eff all about the intricacies.. We can watch them with a mixture of bemusement and enjoyment.. and admire their sheer determination to put on a good show in all weathers... There's one young lad, we have observed growing from a boy over the last decade, whilst the others in the team are now more portly and white / less haired... Mrs punkfolkrocker, almost feels like he is a distant nephew, she is so happy to see him improve year after year.. Good luck to 'em and long may they shake their sticks... All seems positive, cosy, and inoffensive... I'd actually prefer to see some of the more aggressively antagonistic controversial punk rock sides of morris.. but unfortunately not down here in bucalcoholic scrumpyshire..... ..and as you misconstrue malice in my writing, in this thread you could be seen as actively over pandering to and naively in denial, trying to account for and dismiss possible taints of racism in our folk world...???? .. guess it's all down to appearance and misinterpretation... Personally I think folks can get too worked up turning molehills into mountains and conflicts... FRESh may or may not be acting like bellends...??? But some of the black face morris side's more reactionary supporters definitely are...!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:45 AM punkfolkrocker, there's nothing childish about traditional costume and face-paint for dancing. Women as well as men dance in border Morris sides, and paint their faces too. No-one in a border Morris side would be seen dead waving a hanky. That's Cotswold Morris. I know quite a bit about W African traditions, and painting the face is practised there in almost every culture. Ivorian spirit dancers paint their faces white to look gruesome and strange, which adds to the sinister aspect of their dancing. Nothing about them could be described as cute or childish, it can be quite frightening and intimidating, (as it's intended to be). I don't much like your tone to be honest. A bit sneery and demeaning to men... don't you like watching Morris dancing? (or men??) |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:34 AM In the late forties, early fifties,one saw many chimney sweeps. We didn't have central heating, everybody had a coal/wood fire, and the chimneys needed to be swept regularly. Sweeps were either on a bicycle or on foot, with their special brushes over their shoulder. Also, men delivered the coal in open sacks hoisted onto their backs from lorries, and 'shot' the coal into one's bunker behind the house. They wore thick leather protective headgear that hung down their backs. Both these type of workmen had completely blackened faces. Not just smudged, but totally black. And in mining areas (my aunt lived in County Durham for example) the men came off shift covered in coal dust, again, black as the ace of spades. No showers at the pithead in those days, but a tin bath in front of the fire in the living room. It did give the appearance of something a bit sinister and strange, all these unidentifiable black-faced men. So blacking-up for Morris dancing would have been seen as an extension of this, and nothing whatsoever to do with African-origin people at all. In fact, while living at the edge of London, I had never seen a black person, until Jamaicans began to arrive. I used to think as a child that they were chimney sweeps or coalmen, until my mother put me right. My point (after this long ramble) is that men with blackened faces were around long before we saw any African-origin people. So nobody was parodying or imitating them in any way. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:52 PM ^^mine |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:49 PM Seems a natural inclination orig15.deviantart.net/622a/f/2007/203/9/2/sister_earth_by_selinakyle.jpg |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:33 PM so basically a bunch of full grown 'mature' men are still amused & excited by face painting... ahhh.. aint that cute... Why don't they just admit their desires and needs and employ a proper specialist kiddies face paint artist to turn them all into lions, tigers, badgers, bunnies, pandas and dormice... [select other animal of your choice]...??? 🐵 .. they could even go full nude body animal paint and still strap on their bells and wave the hankies and sticks... that'd be real morris men heaven.....??? |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Snuffy Date: 06 Sep 16 - 05:13 PM Soot and/or ashes would have been the easiest materials to acquire - much easier (and cheaper) than burning cork or getting charcoal. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 06 Sep 16 - 04:02 PM Lamp black very likely, but they would have used whatever was at hand. Burnt cork was the popular concept but of course anyone with a few bob would be able to afford greasepaint. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Ed Date: 06 Sep 16 - 02:31 PM Jack Campin posted: some anonymous racist liar writes Point 1, I gave my name. It was Ed, It still is. As far as I'm aware, that does not constitute anonymity. Point 2, I am not a racist, have never posted any racist comment and consider it highly offensive to be labelled as such. An apology for that wouldn't go amiss. Point 3, I am not a liar. The only picture on the BBC page at the time I posted showed only white people. Indeed, Jo Coburn brought up that very point on BBC2's 'The Daily Politics' which her guest, Green Party co-leader Caroline Lucas agreed with. Or are they racist liars too? That is all. Ed |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:54 AM some anonymous racist liar writes: the Black Lives Matter protest at London City Airport this morning. Conducted by guess who? White people... The pictures clearly show people of various ethnicities involved, pretty representative of the population of London. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:54 AM I would've thought cork wasn't easy to procure, except as stoppers for bottles, and they may have been saved for re-use. I bet they used charcoal to blacken their faces, or perhaps lamp-black (oily sooty residue on oil lamps) |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Mark Stevens Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:44 AM Burnt cork was much easier to use, and wash off, than black grease paint. And it smells nice when preparing it through burning, too. Was it traditionally used amongst the agricultural working classes Morris ? |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Uncle Tone Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:44 AM Had the great pleasure of watching Hemlock Morris (Bedford) dance at Whitby Goth weekend recently. Some of them 'purple up'. It looks very effective and would probably solve the problem for all....... except perhaps the Purple People Eaters, who might be offended. Mind you, they also dance mixed morris, very well as it happens, and that probably offends the morris ring. As some great song-writer once wrote, 'You can't please everyone, so you gotta please yourself.' http://hemlockmorris.com/#/about-us/4532899968 |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:43 AM I'd personally like to maintain a balanced view on all this... Acknowledging the dubious racist taints of a tradition, whilst preserving it's continuation within a specialist informed educated rational perspective... Well.. that obviously aint easy.... btw.. I got an old black british made electric guitar which is clearly a poorly applied refinish of the original white paintwork... I'm fairly convinced that guitar is not, or ever been, knowingly racist.. Definitely not in all the time I've owned it....???? But it was hand crafted in a factory in Essex... So I can never be too certain... Any anti pc gone mad brigade want to argue passionately for it's right to continue pretending to be black...??? 😜 |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:33 AM My goodness Guest Ed, one wonders how on earth those protesters got airside and managed to manacle themselves together on a runway without being stopped immediately. Seems to be an enormous lack of basic security at City Airport! |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Ed Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:14 AM There is perhaps an echo of this idiocy in the Black Lives Matter protest at London City Airport this morning. Conducted by guess who? White people... |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 06 Sep 16 - 07:15 AM My mate, Dave Hunt of Sunshine Arts, has posted this today on Facebook. I checked the website of the festival that he refers to in his post and there is no reference to this apology so I cannot offer multiple sources that use multiple sources to authenticate Dave's post. I believe , but cannot prove, that Dave was a performer at that festival, so it could be that this apology was sent by circular email; I can only speculate. However, my faculty for critical analysis suggests to me that it has a ring of truth about it. I cut and paste his posting with no alteration:- Now all you people who want to stay blacked-up....see this. and it ain't going to be the last festival to take this stance! |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 06 Sep 16 - 07:11 AM Endurance is Strength |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: TheSnail Date: 06 Sep 16 - 07:10 AM Morris dancer, Munich 1480 |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 Sep 16 - 06:55 AM If I remember correctly... My Polytechnic Humanities subjects degree back in the early 80s emphasised that whilst the subjects being studied were important, the primary priority was developing student's skills of independent critical analysis...??? .. probably why my sort have been such bolshy bastards all our lives...??? 😎 |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: TheSnail Date: 06 Sep 16 - 06:53 AM hasn't any sensible credible person yet made formal approach to FRESh to try to convince them to reappraise their understanding and actions ... or to listen to what they have to say and try and understand their point of view. If nothing else you will stand a better chance of persuading them than by calling on a largely fictitious history and using Politcal Correctness as a term of abuse. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Ed Date: 06 Sep 16 - 06:18 AM but where do we go for reliable information these days? Multiple well referenced sources, i.e multiple sources that use multiple sources. That combined with a faculty for critical analysis |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 06 Sep 16 - 06:05 AM I was taught NOT to use Wikipedia for any research Probably good advice.... but where do we go for reliable information these days? Just because books are written by academics does not mean that they are sources that can be trusted. Some highly qualified writers have written books in denial of the holocaust - yet there is firm historic evidence that it did happen. Recent events have shown us that as far as prominent politicians of a wide range of persuasions are concerned, we live in a 'post-truth' society. Even when I was at school, I can remember people coming out with statements and ending them with ".... and that is the Gospel truth!" and I remember thinking, "... but the Gospels are riddled with fantastic lies!" |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: GUEST,Mark Stevens Date: 06 Sep 16 - 05:13 AM Thank you everyone. Very informed reading Vic, but I was taught NOT to use Wikipedia for any research, whilst I was at college .. |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: The Sandman Date: 05 Sep 16 - 07:00 PM "Their are no 'yellow skinned people' GSS" are you saying THERE are no yellow skinned people? may i draw your attention to the following, yelow girl sung by leadbelly. and this High yellow, occasionally simply yellow (dialect: yaller, yeller), is a term used to describe persons classified as black according to the one-drop rule, despite having primarily white European ancestry.[1] It is a color reference to the golden skin tone of some mixed-race people. The term was in common use in the United States at the end of the 19th century and the early decades of the 20th century, but is now considered obsolete and sometimes offensive.[2] It is reflected in such popular songs of the era as "The Yellow Rose of Texas" LES IN CHORLTON, for god sake get your facts right |
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Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 05 Sep 16 - 04:02 PM Hopefully the Black Act distinguished between a black face and a blacked up face!!! |
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