BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda

Subject: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 05:44 PM

Has anyone else seen the vid apparently exposing Hilary Clinton as a one time lawyer who got the rapist of a 12 yr old girl, a light sentence , using foul tactics to humiliate the victim. Now, I am not particularly following US politics but just posing certain questions 1, is it factual 2 as it is in the past, is it relevant , and 3 related , should someone who is exposed as having a background of dishonesty and unfeeling disregard for victims,for their own advancement , be bestowed the top job ?

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 06:05 PM

get court transcript.
ask yourself
related to whom?

In ARK. everyone is related.

THE us CONSTITUTION guarantees your right to a defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 06:29 PM

If you don't know whether it's factual, don't post smears until you've discovered for yourself, via your own research, whether it's factual or not. Of course, knowing you, facts are the least of your priorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 07:50 PM

I suggest people check out the facts before they decide to share stories like this. Most of this one is just wrong.
Snopes article on it

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 08:29 PM

Cheers, Jeri. OK, Pete. Got any similar dirt on Trump?

Apologies, yanks, for people this side of the pond like Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 08:48 PM

Cheers, Steve. I suppose I could have just said "what Steve Shaw said", but I took so long looking up and reading the Snopes article that I didn't refresh the thread and see your post.

There's the Donald Trump Rape Lawsuit. I don't think anybody accused him of being a lawyer, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 10:25 PM

My wife's a lawyer but I don't think she's ever raped anybody.

A good lawyer does what she legally can to give her clients the best possible defense. What is permissible can vary from time period to time period -- I doubt if any lawyer in Britain has had to appeal against peine forte et dure recently, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 04:14 AM

Yes , the snopes article does put a different perspective on it. It is just as well I was questioning it. Not that this caution deterred certain individuals from personal comments. Maybe some people have difficulty comprehending the difference between an enquiry and an accusation. Or maybe I did not spell it out sufficiently. Either way, it is good to know that observational inquiry in the here and now to establish facts has verified exaggeration at the very least.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 05:15 AM

Disingenuous. Your opening post started with a smear that the Daily Mail would be proud of, not to speak of the thread title. The criticism you've received is fully deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 08:37 AM

"using foul tactics to humiliate the victim"
Hardly fair blaming Clinton for doing her job well.
That seems to be how the legal system works, here and over the Pond, which is why the rate of conviction is so low and why rape is among the most unreported crimes.
A rethink of our attitude to women might - just - help change things, maybe AND HERE'S JUST THE FELLER TO DO IT, in the States, anyway .
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 10:25 AM

I had a friend who was a Solicitor (lawyer) who made his money as a defence lawyer. I asked him once if he ever thought his client was guilty, and he replied, "Oh yes, often". "So how can you defend them if you know they're guilty?". His response was that our legal system requires every person accused to be given access to a defence on the assumption that he is innocent, and that means, therefore, that the lawyer who takes his case is also under a duty of oath to do so on the assumption that he is innocent, and use every legal means at his disposal to achieve a 'Not Guilty' verdict.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 12:31 PM

Well said, Backwoodsman. I attended quite a few Crown Court trials when some of 'my' prisoners re-offended. It was obvious they were blooming guilty; everyone knew they were, but it had gone to trial (with a jury) and British Justice being what it is, they had to regarded (as you say) as innocent before being proven guilty. Their defence lawyers were always at pains to do their best to defend them vigorously. Only in this way could Justice be seen to be done, and the verdict arrived at be a safe one. I always felt quite proud of our system; it seemed fair and...well...just!
I also liked the presentation of 'mitigation' before sentencing. Several of these lads had 'issues'and appalling childhoods etc, and the judge was always made aware of this by the defence lawyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 12:33 PM

Our betters pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor.

what does trump pledge?


( that was a rhetorical question )

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 03:52 PM

I think that's a very good point senoufou , though how that balances out with not victimising a victim by intrusive interrogation in court as well as being sexually violated previously ,I don't know, especially when a minor is in question as in the opening example.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM

It is our nature to fear a dark purpose in the unknown but True evil may lie more in true ignorance than in mere suspicion.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 04:01 PM

I would have thought that, where the victim was a minor, the judge would have a very tight control over the type of questioning and its vigour. However, unlikely though it might be, there have been cases of false accusations of rape, and the court has to be sure that the crime actually did take place. It is as you say Pete, a balance. (Hence the scales in the hands of 'Justice'!) The tenor of the procedure should always be monitored firmly by the judge hearing the case.
I'm very interested in Justice and the legal system, in crime and punishment. (I'm a Libran!)

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 04:43 PM

The case transcript is either in the library of Congress or the Ann Arbor Michigan University Law Library. Whether it is digitized or not is unknown to me. Who has the case# and year?

Backwoodsman usually insists upon facts, transcripts, proof and journalistic vigor instead of assuming in the dark. What he posted was accurate but was presented as hearsay.

Jim Carrol, Based on your last link do you too find it believable that Donald is a pornographer behind the scenes.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 02:48 AM

What I presented, Donuel old chum, was an explanation, given to me by a qualified, very experienced lawyer, of how the legal profession deals with the issue of providing a defence for an accused person when the defending lawyer is aware, or has strong suspicions, that the accused is actually guilty.

You call it 'hearsay'.

Here it is from the Barrister David Whitehouse, QC (if you don't know what a Barrister is, try Google), in writing. Is that OK for you?.....

"Usually I have my own view of the merits of the defence, but even if the prosecution case is very strong, if my client tells me he's innocent I have to act for him, because it is a cardinal rule of the profession that we are not allowed to refuse to represent someone because we don't like them or because we don't believe in their case. Otherwise, some people wouldn't get a barrister to defend them at all. The system is based on the idea that there's a barrister on each side, the jury looks at the case from both angles and makes up its mind. It only works properly if both sides are represented."

Source: 'The Guardian' article, 7th January, 2006.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 03:26 AM

Donuel,I fail to see how Backwoodsman was 'assuming in the dark' Everyone in England knows that one assumes an accused is innocent before being proven guilty. It doesn't need to be 'in writing'.
And I'm perfectly sure he wasn't lying about his conversation with his friend the Solicitor. Either one believes what one reads on this forum (from regular and accredited posters such as Backwoodsman) or one doesn't. Demanding written proof is a bit over the top in my opinion.

If one looked askance at every lawyer who had ever defended someone on remand accused of a serious crime, one would have to dismiss a vast number of them, since it's their job!

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 04:12 AM

"Based on your last link do you too find it believable that Donald is a pornographer behind the scenes."
Sorry - not sure I understand you.
I put that up because I believe Trump to be a mindless misogynist, racist thug who shouldn't be allowed out without being tagged, let alone be considered for the head of State of a nuclear facilitated nation with a dubious record on human rights.
That there may be a few questionable bits in that link is irrelevant - this feller makes Nixon, Reagan and George Dubya look like a bunch of idealistic, bleeding-heart charity working college professors.
Why on earth has he been allowed to come this far - what is happening to America?
It's like resetting the nuclear clock back to one minute to midnight as it was at the height of the Cold War.
Must get to work on digging our shelter in the back garden!!!
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 04:51 AM

There's something disturbing about the way the anti-Hillary/rightwing crowd present some of their arguments; a barely concealed passive-aggressive assault using insinuation and implication to smear an opponent regardless of the truth. This constant slurring of her (and others) is driven by belligerence and hatred rather than any desire for genuine political discourse, and lends a sense of incivility to the proceedings that is unpleasant and reflects badly on us all. The first post in this thread is a case in point: no attempt to present any actual facts, no effort to discover the facts prior to posting just an ad hominem attack lazily presented as a question.

Trump is supported by some pretty nasty types, and although Hillary is a shill for corporate governance (as are many politicians world over) an ideology driven by ignorance, hatred and fear is a dangerous and heady mix in certain circumstances and in straitened times we need to guard against heading down a dark and terrible path. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 06:59 PM

Sorry to disappoint you stu, but I have no hatred toward Hillary Clinton . Maybe you got a point about lazy. I could I suppose have trawled the internet and got lots of opinion and different accounts, but I decided to ask the mudcat crew ,as I thought it might be interesting, and be good to ascertain what the truth is. I have no problem believing the most favourable account . As I said earlier, I am not actively following US politics , but it seems you , stu, are doing what you accuse me of in your post ! Seems typical that certain posters try to stifle civil discussion by imputing ill feeling and malice against those with whom they disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 07:11 PM

Rubbish. Your headline was a smear and the first sentence of your original post was a smear. Civil discussion was the least of your priorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 03:26 AM

" I have no problem believing the most favourable account "

It's not about believing the most favourable account Pete, it's about finding out the facts and having an informed opinion. To suggest the thread title "Rapist lawyer for the top job" carries no connotations is a tad insulting to say the least.


"Seems typical that certain posters try to stifle civil discussion by imputing ill feeling and malice against those with whom they disagree."

Nope. I bear no malice towards you at all Pete, whether you choose to believe that or not. I disagree with you though, as your arguments are often based on assumption and hearsay, not fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 04:08 AM

The word 'rapist' in the thread title means 'a person who has raped'
The word then transfers itself to the following noun, ie 'a lawyer who has raped'. Just as in 'fraudster lawyer' would indicate 'a lawyer who commits fraud'. But a 'fraud lawyer' would be one who deals with fraud cases. If Donuel had used the title 'Rape Lawyer' one would have assumed it was one who dealt with cases of rape, not one who indulged in the practice himself!
Either the title was intended to titillate and smear, or it was an error of grammar and an inaccurate choice of words.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 05:31 AM

The unfortunate fact is that this thread exists at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist lawyer for top job ?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 08:51 AM

I stand corrected senoufou, for grammatical error and inaccurate choice of words,vfor which I apologise .   Glad you are malice free stu. Of course we often think each others arguments are based on hearsay and assumption, but in this case I was making no argument at all !

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job ?
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 08:57 AM

You tried to spread lies and manipulate facts, Pete, so indeed you did take a stand on the wrong side of this.

Changing thread title to be less inflammatory...and wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job ?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 04:21 PM

No problem with changing thread title, jeri. I have already admitted my mistake. But it does seem to me that there is a personal agenda here, though of course I could not prove that......anymore than you can prove your allegation against me !   Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job ?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 05:21 PM

Sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 05:48 PM

Just jumping to the bottom to say this was debunked years ago. But that doesn't stop haters from hating.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job ?
From: Stu
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 02:23 AM

This is a wind-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job ?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 11:11 AM

Like father like son

"The media has built her up. they've let her slide on every indescrepancy, on every lie, on every DNC game trying to get Bernie Sanders out of this thing, If Republicans were doing that,
They'd be warming up the gas chambers right now!"
Donald Trump Jr.
1210 WPHT Radio

I did not know you have to warm up Gas Chambers

Are the benches cold on Catholic and Jewish tushies ?

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job ?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 12:10 PM

Bear in mind the issue of this thread is primarily election propaganda.
Propaganda does not operate under rules of a Court of Law.

My own sarcasm is offensive but deservedly so.

PS
Yes Senofou I should not respond to individuals based on what they say in a different thread like Deaf man shot by Police no matter how overly criticizing it is.. I welcome criticism but do not live for it.
My skin got thin for a moment.

For clarity's sake I propose that it will be discovered that Trump does a great deal of business not just with Iran and Libya but also in the porn industry, up to his elbows.

We only have his business dealings to judge in the absence of any political record. Without a Tax return or eyes inside blind trusts we will not know prior to the election.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job ?
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 10:51 AM

pete and Ake should get together and form The Delusional Fact-Free Clinton Haters' Association. Good "Christians" both.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 05:06 PM

Now bringing in a sectarian sneer like that, Greg, is actually just the same thing that is rightly criticised in the context of Trumpery.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 05:32 PM

After posting that it occurred to me that the word "Trumpery" is peculiarly appropriate -
Trumpery:
noun plural -eries
1. foolish talk or actions
2. a useless or worthless article; trinket
adjective
3. useless or worthless

In fact it seems so remarkably apposite that it might have been coined for the man, though in fact it goes back to Middle English and before. I anticipate that in future years most people coming across it will assume it was made up for dear Donald.

In fact in time it could be his only toehold on immortality - -nd most appropriately in that case it would be one to which he was not in fact entitled.

I recommend the word should be used frequently in the next few weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 06:00 PM

As you say Mcgraph ".....it could be....."   Seems to be doing pretty well though despite being thoroughly demonised. Just as an outside observer with no particular affiliation .i do note though that he has come out as pro life , but whether that is a political expediency , or moral considerations I know not.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 06:44 PM

He's previously expressed the complete opposite view - it appears he'll say just about anything. I don't think "come out" is really appropriate, it implies making a genuine commitment, and that's just not how he works.

Walt Whitman's words are particulary apt in the case of Donald: "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." Except Donald would never say anything as honest as that about himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 06:58 PM

Now bringing in a sectarian sneer like that, Greg,

Sneer?

Nothing of the kind. Fact.

pete might want to review something in his bible regarding "bearing false witness".

Or not. "Christians"[sic] can be kind of slippery.....

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 09:31 PM

Still doing it. How about if you substitute "Jews", "Muslims", "non-believers", "women", "gays" etc, if any of those happened to be applicable? Still be a sneer in this context. And a pointless diversion, as would continuing this particular side issue.

The thing with Trump isn't that he gets "demonised". It's that he demonises himself - and that millions of Americans like him for it. And the other millions who don't - and the countless outsiders looking in and feeling sick at what they see - aren't reacting to what gets said about him, but to what they see on screen when he is on show.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 04:57 AM

Well Mr McGrath.....the establishment have much the same view of Mr Corbyn and his supporters.

The important thing is that people who had lost interest in politics are being re-energised and are starting to question the status quo.

I also see a huge worldwide backlash against "liberalism" and its social excesses. "liberalism" has dehumanised much of society, we are now forced to live by self appointed committees.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 07:06 AM

Funny word, liberalism. The social excesses you refer to are, I guess, things connected with free movement and protections for workers rights, whereas the excesses of liberalism I see are those of neoliberalism deriving from 19th century liberalism like deregulation and world trade agreements that can cause whole countries to be sued.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 07:44 AM

Liberal = Empathy = Great Society

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 09:16 AM

Ace's version of "liberalism" is an elusive and fickle entity. No-one is sure exactly what or who he is talking about. A definition would be "useful".

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 09:20 AM

Still be a sneer in this context.

No, Kevin - its simply pointing out pete's hypocrisy in this one instance of many similar ones.

Full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 09:42 AM

Liberals, the left, want to change things. Conservatives, the right, want things to stay the same. Simple and classic, but that's fundamentally what the fight is about. Look at it from farther away, and you realize it's that back-and-forth that means things will change, but will do so slowly...most of the time.

I do find it's hard for me these days to suffer fools, although I'll admit it's my definition of "fools". People who believe and spread lies without bothering to check facts, people who are so hard-wired that most can predict what they're going to say on a given issue or in response to certain people. It's just not fun talking to the programming.

While it's somewhat entertaining to watch a bunch of British people fight about our USA election, it's also off-putting to the point that few Americans want to get involved in the threads once the boors get the bit in their teeth. So peace, out.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 10:50 AM

"While it's somewhat entertaining to watch a bunch of British people fight about our USA election"

Well, we all have a stake in the US election even if most folk outside the states have only seen the US on the telly. The decision you make will affect all of us and affect many people beyond your borders in a very profound and personal way, and people the world over take a very close interest, and so they should.

So you aren't needed for the debate to happen, although of course (in my worthless opinion) it's always better to get the views of those who will at least exert influence over the outcome, and will have to cope with their country's choice, even if it goes against their own view (see 'Brexit').

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 11:31 AM

Which isn't supposed to sound disrespectful, please understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapist's lawyer for top job-ElectionPropaganda
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 11:56 AM

Greg F. - 19 Sep 16 - 09:20 AM - careful now Greg F. pointing out the hypocrisy of others appears to be frowned upon - or does that only apply to one side?