BS: The Trolls and Flamers

Subject: the Trolls amd Flamers
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 09:39 AM

I'm wondering why internet trolls and flamers do it. Niot just here on Mudcat, but everywhere.

Obviously they wouldn't if they could not remain incognito, which immediately classifies them as cowards.

But, from a psychological point of view are they would-be psychopaths hell-bent on causing pain and disruption wherever they can, just for the sake of it?

In which case they are in a very dangerous moral state.

Or, in the context of this site, are they inadequates who couldn't sing or play a note and who are incredibly jealous of those who can?

I see most of them as very early teenagers who haven't yet gained maturity, up to mischief, or adults who have never gained maturity.

What do other Mudcatters think? And how do we deal with them? My immediate answer would be to just ignore them as attention seekers, that would hurt them most.

Subject: RE: the Trolls amd Flamers
From: mkebenn
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 12:37 PM

I think you can stop wondering, ya' pretty much got it. Mike

Subject: RE: the Trolls amd Flamers
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 01:22 PM

psychopaths hell-bent on causing pain and disruption wherever they can, just for the sake of it?

Rather like Trump and the Trumpists.

Subject: RE: the Trolls amd Flamers
From: keberoxu
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 02:16 PM

I met a flamer once. This was a long time before I knew that Mudcat existed.

I can tell you a little bit without anybody getting hurt. The context was a church parish, so one has a strong community agenda, an established hierarchy, and a network of committed volunteers working closely with fellow parish members. The parish had its own, what the heck is it called, online forum at one of the big Internet thingies. So there was interaction in person and online.

There was also, as you may imagine, a circle of insiders, and there were the members who shadow the insiders. I would describe the flamer as a person who shadows insiders, and who would never become an insider, will always somehow remain on the fringe.

Thankfully I was never the object of the flamer's attention. For a temporary period I was included in the parish's music ministry, mostly a pleasant and positive experience. Fellow music ministry participants included some people who were prominent in the parish, known to everybody, and who would attract the attention of the fringe people. I got to watch the drama at close quarters; hopefully I did nothing to contribute to the drama or make it worse, but I was in a position to see what was going on.

My opinion of the person who did the flaming, this particular person, is that the driving force was envy. Envy and resentment made this person experience not just attraction, but attachment -- a powerful sticky combination of desire and shame. It's yucky stuff and it makes the world of soap operas go 'round.

The person in the flesh was easily dominated and easily cowed, had probably experienced being the victim of bullying of some kind. Lots of resentment and anger, precious little courage, and not given to looking closely at oneself and thinking before one speaks. What I am trying to say is there wasn't anything flamboyant about the flamer, in everyday life.

Online, the flamer shouted, using capital letters. Such was the content of the forum posts that I could tell who the flamer was. I pity the objects of the flamer's fury, but mostly I feel sorry for the flamer.

Subject: RE: the Trolls amd Flamers
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 02:28 PM

Like most spiteful, hurtful and unkind behaviour, it stems from deep unhappiness. I imagine these sorts of people feel unaccepted by the rest of society, and possibly isolated and unwanted. The internet gives them an anonymous way of 'getting their own back'. I feel very sorry for them actually. It must be very painful to be so miserable that one feels the need to attack and hurt with words.
I saw several children like this in my teaching days. The ones who bashed weaklings in the playground, or scribbled on someone's nice piece of writing or called other children unkind names. They were always what I thought of as 'The Unloved'. One could punish them of course, but I found a better way was to praise them and show them affection, give them responsibility and respect. It often brought them round.
I wonder if there's a similar way to deal with trolls? Post something nice about them, or say something kind perhaps?

Subject: RE: the Trolls amd Flamers
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 09:02 PM

Ignore them. Both are inadequate cowards who would never face up to themselves in "real life." I've been called worse than they have ever called me by people who were as far superior to them as I am.

I've often wondered what would happen if the Code Duello was still in force and they might have to answer for their statements with their lives:

"Sir, my friends will call upon you!"
"You ain't got any friends!"

Knock know....

"Hello, my name is Amos, Rapparee's friends. Would you please provide the name of your second so that we might make the proper arrangements? As the challenged party you, of course, have the choice of weapons."

"Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! I didn't mean any of that, I was just kidding around, I was...can't we make this up some other way?"

"I'm afraid not. Now, please, who is acting for you? We really must make the arrangements. And let's follow the American Code, if that's all right with you and your second."

Subject: RE: the Trolls amd Flamers
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 09:13 PM

H'mm. I met a troll once. In fact he stayed with me for a few days, cped next to my narrowboat. Met him through a forum where he was quite reepectful, but I knew what he was up to elsewhere. With a chosen name of Brian the Troll, how could I not!

I expressed kindness to him, bought him a couple of meals, bought his beer etc. because he reckoned he was broke.

I listened to his stories of how he was an abused child by the Catholic Church. (He eventually got compensation.)

My mistake was to ignore a text message from him. From that moment I became a target.

It got very bad. Everywhere I turned on t'internet, he was there, giving it some, undermining my reputation (which wasn't that good in the first place!)

Eventually I reminded him that I knew where his grandkids (yes, he is that old!)were and when they reached 18 I would send them a copy of all his online abuse so they could see what kind of person their grandfather really was.

Then it stopped, for me at least.

Subject: RE: the Trolls amd Flamers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 12:52 AM

I went to Seattle about this time last year to meet Bob "Deckman" Nelson and a lot of Mudcatters I had corresponded with for years. Stewart gave me a tour of the fascinating Fremont district, and introduced me to the troll (click) that lives under the Highway 99 bridge. It was a very interesting troll, indeed.
So were the Seattle Mudcatters...interesting, not trolls.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: the Trolls amd Flamers
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 12:54 AM

Sometimes the troll has been drinking or doing dope, the buzz is long past, and the sadness or anger has hit. If you know where the troll lives, you can figure out what time of day he posted. If it was 3 AM, well.....

It helps to realize that it's not personal, it's chemical.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 02:27 AM

On many occasions I have posted that I am prepared to discuss anything at any time but if it seems to me that we have moved from a discussion to abuse I disengage.

There is a very characteristic post the troll makes a lot of the time. It opens by a direct piece of abuse to me in an attempt to make me respond, but then goes on to abuse three or four other posters to the thread to try and rile them. For all the world it resembles the guy in the bar who wants a fight and doesn't much care with who. And, like them, you feel pity rather than anger.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 02:44 AM

From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 12:52 AM

Quote: I went to Seattle about this time last year to meet Bob "Deckman" Nelson and a lot of Mudcatters I had corresponded with for years. Stewart gave me a tour of the fascinating Fremont district, and introduced me to the troll (click) that lives under the Highway 99 bridge. It was a very interesting troll, indeed.

That's one hell of a Troll Joe!

We get 'em too, under bridges on our narrow canals. They are usually angry anglers!

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 03:16 AM

maybe they are angry because (in the UK anyway) their designated transport has disappeared

Trolley Buses


I'll get my fishing rod...............

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 03:36 AM

Hahahaha Mr Red!

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: MikeL2
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 09:19 AM

Hi

I go with the ignore them comment.

They feed on argument.

many, years ago - before the Internet I had an encounter with what we now call a troll. For some reason I was a target ans received abuse and much worse me family and friends received untrue terrible comments about me.

I told all my friends about the problem and told them just to ignore this pathetic person.

I ignored the idiot and so did the others.

The "troll" soon gave up on us.

I know that other people were targets. I told them to just ignore the idiot.

Works.

Don't feed their ego which will only lead continued abuse.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 09:51 AM

The Perrine Bridge over by Twin Falls sits some 3,600 feet above sea level and about 486 feet above the Snake River. It has trolls on nearly every girder, or rather the ghosts of trolls who thought they were BASE jumpers or worse. They sit among the girders murmuring "Don't do it, you arse!" but are largely ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 11:30 AM

"I go with the ignore them comment.

They feed on argument."
Surely this section of the forum is dedicated to argument? it is a discussion section......the current mods are to blame by labelling every point of view with which they disagree.....as flaming or trolling...... especially concerning political matters.

A troll is someone who does not care about the SUBJECT under discussion, but simply wants to promote anger in his/her victim.

There are few real trolls here, but there were many abusive and vituperative people......who were allowed to practise their abuse until the management sorted matters out.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 11:41 AM

Hey, Rapp, I walked over the Perrine Bridge in Idaho three weeks ago. Didn't see trolls, but I did see the Guys With Parachutes.
Joe

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 02:11 PM

Not come across the term " flames " before, not sure what exactly identifies these. And is troll , strictly an anon, or include those that name themselves and still spew abuse ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 03:46 PM

Or, pete, as in your case, still spew nonsense.

Flamers all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 05:44 PM

Words change meaning and shade into one another, but this definition of troll is quite a good one: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

Notice the troll does not have to believe it or even take any further part in the mess they created. For example I can think of several pairs of words I could post that would almost guarantee hundreds of argumentative, furious and abusive posts without my having to do anything else.   I am sure you, dear reader, could do the same.

A flame, on the other hand is a personal attack for a real or imagined slight or when someone presents a view they disagree with, and flamers are almost always active participants in the thread. It is not the same as a robust defence of another point of view; any reasoned response disappears in the abuse.    I remember the fist time I was badly flamed, which was for expressing the view that when designing a piece of software it was a good idea to think about Windows and Linux and macs. The fury I got as the supporters of each group thought I was saying the others were as good was astonishing, and lasted for an incredibly long time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 08:38 PM

Did you see any with those birdsuits or whatever they call them? That's the latest, apart from steam-powered rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 09:26 PM

There are those who are somewhere between flamers and trolls. They are the ones who try to embarrass others, manipulate them into making replies they don't want or need to make and get them jumping around at their beck and call.

I would call these 'baters'. Spelt that way. It means those who seek to get folks flapping their wings wildly or frantically, a term used in falconry.

They nearly always do this from an anonymous position.

The only way to deal with them is to withdraw from any dialogue with them at all, no matter how provocative.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 03:46 AM

Thanks DMcg that clarifies .

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 04:27 AM

Surely a song in this?
"Oh, the Trollers and the Flamers should be friends..."

Perhaps not
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 05:35 AM

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 07:45 AM

At the risk of being 'flamed' or accused of trollery, is this BS section shrinking down to absolutely nothing?? Being phased out or something?

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: mkebenn
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 09:04 AM

Having a rough morn, Sens? Mike (with all respect and not a touch of trollism, just kiddin'.} Mike

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 09:53 AM

Wiki: "The Flaming Trolls"...

An early 1960s one hit wonder Finnish pop beat group known for small club tours of Europe playing Rolling Stones and Beatles covers.
One minor Spanish summer chart hit of their own 1963 instrumental twist composition
"Oma perse on tulessa , ota kusta se sammuttamaan liekit"...

Record collector 2013: An original test pressing on the Peikko Perse Ja Kiveksiä label recently sold on ebay auction for £3.60. 😎

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 10:24 AM

Mike :)

Actually, I am having a bad day. A stray cat that hangs about here has just been sick on my kitchen floor. And a passing pigeon has messed on my lovely clean washing on the line in the garden. I'n not a Happy Bunny!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 11:18 AM

The BS section: some people have said it's just for debate. It's not - there are other kinds of discussions. The constant fighting, I believe, turns off people who don't want to choose a side and defend a position, but that's pretty much what's expected what you get involved in a thread.

There are some who get involved in a thread only to bitch about the premise of the thread. Increasingly, what I hear when I read those posts is "Hi there. I'd just like to announce to you all that I hate the subject of this thread, but I am too stupid to simply not read it. I'm also stupid enough to tell everyone this by bitching about it." It's better to try to see some Humor Among the Fuckwittery (should that be a tune title?) than get frustrated and/or respond.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 11:39 AM

"The constant fighting, I believe, turns off people who don't want to choose a side and defend a position, but that's pretty much what's expected what you get involved in a thread."

Bingo!

It turns also off people who would otherwise choose a side and defend a position, but who aren't prepared to subject themselves to the slanging and abuse. And it's precisely why the BS section is now down to a small handful of threads. Which, I have a sneaking suspicion, is what Max and the Mods wanted. The decision to close the BS section to 'GUESTS' was, in my view, a good one but, unfortunately, the group of members who lack any kind of filter-system are still busy driving people away.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 02:02 PM

With regard to the number of threads in BS, I've noticed that a few folk start thread after thread, sometimes several in one day, then all the usual suspects pile in and have a marvellous bunfight which gets a bit violent. But as has been said above, one can surely just pass by while smiling at the fracas.
I suppose it's true though, new people could be put off, thinking it's a zoo in here!

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 02:36 PM

I often find the fighting annoying. What is particularly galling is when someone has made an interesting point and you are trying to have a civilised discussion with them while around you others are throwing brickbats. It makes me think of being in one of these bar room brawls that were a common feature of old westerns, while in the middle two people are sat trying to discuss conceptual art.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 02:46 PM

Hahahahaha DMcG!! Conceptual art!! :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 06:44 PM

I don't care what people think of me and the other "usual suspects," as we've been characterised, though almost never named. A troll is not an argumentative person who just so happens to not fit in with your personal establishment/orthodox religious/right-wing views. A troll is someone who posts provocative and brainless remarks with the SOLE AIM of getting an emotional response. As simple as that. Lots of people here, such as Teribus, akenaton and Pete, post brainless remarks which are not necessarily deliberately provocative - just stupid. Bobad and Keith are archetypal trolls because they post remarks that are bigoted, repetitively so in most cases, and designed to get responses that show up the responders to be angry and frustrated. That is their modus operandi and that is precisely what trolling is all about. If you can bear it, and I wouldn't blame you if you can't, just look at the way they have resurrected the Labour thread that has been toxic for weeks and which should have been allowed to sink into the mire. But they can't resist. That's precisely what trolls do. We are bloody idiots for failing to ignore them. Now I happen to think that this is a rather stupid and navel-gazing thread, and as far as I'm concerned I shall say no more. And that's a promise that I've never seen a troll making. And just see if I don't keep it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: keberoxu
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 07:40 PM

A rather stupid and navel-gazing thread, are we? I happen to like the stupid and navel-gazing threads. I have started a few myself. And for all I know will start others in future.

This may be off-topic, but on a number of non-music non-folklore threads in the BS section, I have observed another distinction. There are members whose posts are hard-edged and opinionated, consistently so, and when others respond to them, these members can genuinely take or leave what comes. And there are members whose posts have more than a little verbal aggression in them, who interestingly can get very touchy about how others respond to them.

On one thread, which was BS but still focussed on poetry, literature, and culture, I enjoyed exchanging posts with a certain member -- mind you, these were thread posts, not PMs, they were public and anybody (even the guests who couldn't post) could view our back-and-forth. The on-thread conversation was amicable and cordial, and it would please me to converse with the other member on that kind of subject -- television, short stories, novels, etc -- anytime. As I am conflict-averse, I stay off the threads on which this same member maintains their reputation for being opinionated and set in their ways.

But I think more of this member, even if I disagree with their position or if their manner in debate makes me anxious, because this person genuinely understands that they are not the center of the universe and does not worry about what others think of them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 08:02 PM

And "this member" in question is ???

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 09:09 PM

"The decision to close the BS section to 'GUESTS'"

Aah. Didn't know that. That explains why my bating 'guest guest' hasn't followed me here!

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 09:46 PM

although there are people on line who intentional incite trouble, i find all too often anglos call anyone from another cultrual background a troll or flammer or both, if they do not conform to anglo additudes. and especially if they do not respect their class status(usually unearned) folk music in the anglo world is full of well of middleclass or higher ups who went slumming and never achieved what their parents did but insist on their class privledge being recognized--in vancouver there was a folk singer who was a school teach, who rarely failed to mention his father was a member of the british house of lords.but lectured every celt who went there on their bad manners(mainly not genuflecting to him--or should isay to jim)

and is it cowardly to remain anonymous? well in my experinence anglos are both gang up types and violent and there is no sense courting unnecessasy trouble. they will make it when ever they can without any provocation. better to go somewhere else.

however i have successfully sued flamers for libel from on line defamations. usually not worth the trouble but some are
persistent.

on mudcat we used to have a lotof antinative andanti gael racism. i wouldcall that trolling or flaming except it is apparantly normal in anglo culture --so its acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 10:16 PM

Good example of flaming, that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 02:25 AM

The problem with Steve, Jim, Ake, Keith, Teribus (there, I've named you) is their lack of any kind of filter. Clearly intelligent people, mostly very literate, they are unable to filter out, and ignore, anything posted by their nemeses. Their intelligence, sadly, doesn't extend to the understanding that, if you ignore a troll/flamer, he (almost invariably a he, but occasionally a she) will eventually bugger off.

Instead, they 'stonewall', throwing their own fixed, blinkered opinions back and forth, provoking further responses from 'the other side' ad infinitum (and, for the rest of us, ad nauseam). They just don't get it that the arguing interminably in thread after thread after thread serves absolutely no purpose, that they won't change each others' minds, that they can't, and won't, 'win'.

It's precisely the kind of 'Yah-boo you' behaviour that kids indulge in in school playgrounds the world over. Time the daft buggers grew up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 03:30 AM

And there's another classic example of flaming, posted by a notorious England-hating flamer, on the thread, which was immediately responded to by someone else.

Responding to flaming/trolling isn't compulsory! What's so difficult to understand about 'Do Not Respond'? You can't win with these inadequates, so IGNORE THEM and they'll fuck off. It's so bloody simple!

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:55 AM

I'll stick with a contentious BS thread that sparks my interest, until it no longer informs, educates, or entertains me...

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:05 AM

BWM, sorry but I enjoy challenging the views, preconceptions and as I see it, prejudices of others.
I know I will not change them, but it does force them to defend their assertions.

Not flaming or trolling. No-one else has to look at any of it.
Quite harmless.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:14 AM

no one else has to look at it
That's only partially true. Certainly we can ignore the thread in its entirety. But if the thread contains something that is interesting as well as a whole lot of "wind and fury" it does take some effort to disentangle them. Even if I ignore by certain people in the thread, it messes up the paging and such like by making so many post irrelevant. And since each new post resets where the blocks of 50 are counted from, it can still be an irritation that gobbles up my data allowance on the phone for no value to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:35 AM

In case anyone thinks the data charges comment is silly, my account used abroad has a daily charge of £6 a Mb for the first 5Mb. While a 50-post block is usually only a few 10s of Kb, it is happenstance if that crosses a boundary and so clocks another £6 on the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:34 AM

Well said Keith, totally agree. If someone puts up information or presents a poor argument then anyone should be at liberty to challenge it.

DMcG, concerns for you being able to follow it all on your mobile phone while abroad do not interest me or influence me in the slightest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:57 AM

And if six pounds here or there greatly concerned me I wouldn't look at threads from abroad either. That was not the point
Going further than saying that would risk flaming, so I'll leave this precise point here, but may post on other stuff that arises elsewhere in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 10:48 AM

I rather like navel gazing. Mine was just a standard inny until I had it pierced. Yes! By a doctor, who was repairing a bilateral hernia. Now it has a nice scar that I can tell people was achieved when I tried to protect a kindly old nun who was collecting money for food for the poor orphans when she was beset by a gang of drug-crazed punk rocker bikers when I came to her rescue and while defeating the whole mad mob was stabbed with malice aforethought by one who when he realized what he had done immediately converted and now is a plainsong chanter in a cloistered monastery in the Pyrenees.

Subject: RE: BS: The Trolls and Flamers
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 02:09 PM

Rap for emperor -- ooops sorry that's a different BS thread